Finally talking to & seeking compromise with my wonderful wife

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Hi Kaley

Your alcoholism analogy doesn't sound right to me. CD may be addicting but is not really harmful, except to some people's perceptions. When you say inherently/morally wrong, can you elaborate? Was that from a religious perspective? Some people's religious views are very rigid. Is it a deal breaker for her because of that?

This is part of you that is not going away. Maybe if you communicate that finality and the importance to you of being true to yourself (and no longer lying to her), she'll mellow in her views. If she is still holding on to the hope that you can "beat" this, she may not want to accept it.

Getting to DADT would be a win, but I would try to propose dressing in your own home, and use your mom's house as a fallback.

Best of luck to you

Shibumi

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Bridget, part of me believes that Kaley is in my soul. But part of me doesn't. For so long I believed it was a fetish. An unfortunate behavioral association between sexual arousal and women's clothing. But I'm doubting this now. For one, I first had the desire to dress when I was 5 or 6. I even told my parents I wanted to be a girl. But I don't remember really wanting to be a girl after that. I think the sexual aspect was accidental and came later. Today, there is still sexual excitement sometimes, but when I'm dressed and out its not sexual at all. I don't understand it, honestly.

Kaley,

Final thoughts from me on this thread.

It seems our paths have been very similar. Being en femme was never sexual for me either. As far as Kaley truly being in you soul I can't say either, but she is a part of your psyche. Identity in humans is a complex thing. Some aspects are, indeed, born with us (personality, temperament), others are a result of our choices (what job we have, marital situation). I know for me being Bridget was at one time a choice, but once that choice was made she found a way to becoming a part of who I am. I think there is a lot of merit to the notion of being bi-gendered. I like to think of it as ambigender (sort of like being ambidextrous). Some of us can easily switch between roles because we have good gender balance. I think all we really want is to allow the outside to reflect what we are feeling on the inside. All we've done is give a name to that feminine part of our brains.

You have certainly been given much to think about as you prepare for this important conversation. I wish you the best and let us know how it turns out.

One last hug,
Bridget

[Tina_gm]

To Launa, Imo... an almost busin essence or legal like way of going about this will likely cause more akwardness, discomfort and a greater emotional separation. I just wouldn't think this would be a good way to go in an active marriage. Not that agreements can't be or shouldn't be worked out, but in a more warm caring loving environment.

Kaley, some of what you are saying is only certain external traits. You are not a large muscular man, that's it. A woman who is 6 ft 2 isn't any less of a woman or less feminine. It only makes her taller than most.

One last thing, when dressing as a woman does not make you one. If you only feel feminine when dressing then you ere not ts, and likely not gender fluid. I do understand that it feels good, comfortable and all. I personally would take some time for both you and your wife to engage in good loving communication of the subject before trying to go Fwd to dressing with her or in public. I think both of you need time to get more comfortable and knowledgeable about it all.

[DanaR]

...........................I'm considering inviting my wife to meet with my therapist in a couples setting. Its a good idea.

You might run this by your therapist first. I had asked my therapist if she would do some couples counseling for us, she said no, because she was my therapist and it wouldn't be fair to my wife, because she was my therapist. So my wife asked her therapist and she said yes. Big mistake, while we were in our first couples session, her therapist started attacking me. When we left, my wife couldn't understand why she acted that way towards me. When we first showed up, her therapist was telling me what a great person my wife thought I was as was nothing but positive, until she turned and decided that I had an anger problem; which isn't the case at all. My wife had been seeing her for about a year, and she really helped her get through with some of her issues. My wife never went back to her after that.

[Tina_gm]

Dana, my wife and I have done some couples counseling. Setting up at the beginning that it would be couples counseling. At first, she met each of us individually. then after a couple of visits each, we then did the couples counseling. If it is set up that way, no problem, although there may be individual counseling sessions within the couples counseling. What happened to you though is not fair. And yes, some counselors do have motives and agendas. gender therapists and more typical general therapists. Sounds as if you found one that had an agenda against you after a long time with your wife.

My gender therapist was great, no agenda at all. He just helped in the beginning with the what, and some general oversight and coping mechanisms. Also was good with the big picture kinda thing which always clicks with me. My other therapist, was fine with the gender issues, believes in it, but we went for the whole shebang of issues pertaining to our marriage. Overall, while not having an agenda, we stopped going to her because she seemed to have more issues than we did, and was not consistent in our sessions.

[DanaR]

Dana, ..................... Setting up at the beginning that it would be couples counseling. At first, she met each of us individually. then after a couple of visits each, we then did the couples counseling. If it is set up that way, no problem, although there may be individual counseling sessions within the couples counseling. What happened to you though is not fair..........................

When we started going to a therapist, it was actually me going by myself because my wouldn't go. After I had gone for quite a while, my wife decided that she needed to talk to someone; which worked out well for her and helped us a lot. Thinking that if we had some couples counseling, it might help us more. We were able to talk through our issues on our own, but it would have been better talking to someone. My wife isn't really in to counseling very much.

I do agree, if you're thinking about couples counseling, set it up that way at the beginning.

[Stephanie47]

Kaley, I have to ask, "What went wrong? What changed?" In earlier posts way back in 2010 you indicated you and you're wife went to a Halloween Party or two "switched." If you told her before you and her were married, and, you have worn women's clothing with her...well...why did she agree to it in the first place?

You are very attractive in your pictures which include some out with the friends. It seems you're getting some significant outlet to express yourself. You say your wife is more important than cross dressing. I think you really need to sit down and find out the true nature of her resistance to you expanding your cross dressing. I have to say "expanding" because you appear to be able to explore your feminine side.

I'd be careful to push the envelope with your wife until you figure out just who you are. Perhaps you're wife sees you slipping away from her concept of gender roles.

[kaleyg]

Stephanie -- When we went to those parties, she was under the impression that I had my desires "under control" and that it was just harmless fun. She would never have done it if she thought I really enjoyed it. It was for a laugh. Of course, I did enjoy it A LOT.
As for my outings in recent years, she doesn't know anything about that.
If I have to figure out who I am first, I'm afraid I'll never get anywhere! I'm sure she worries about gender roles. I do too!
Dana -- good thoughts about couples therapy.
Gendermutt -- You make good points also. I was speaking figuratively about being a woman. : ) Height is not really a gender-associate trait, though men tend to be taller. But finger length is highly correlated with the amount of testosterone you were exposed to in the womb, which shapes brain and body development. Brains can be anywhere on a spectrum of masculine to feminine. But this can be unrelated to your sex. I'm all male genetically and in my sex organs, but I suspect I have a more "feminine" brain, maybe? I'm still figuring all this out.
I am wondering whether I should take more time with my therapist to get clear on my identity before I begin have serious talks with my wife. I'm leaning that way now.

[Tina_gm]

It would make sense and is sometimes the case that men who have feminine physical traits are sometimes feminine when it comes to how our brains are wired. I know of some men who are quite feminine physically yet masculine wired. And we have quite a few members here who speak of being well over 6ft and or built like a brick, yet have a more feminine wired brain.

My moniker is because both inside and out I am a mix of masculine and feminine. For me, it's not so much an identity I need to figure out, I basically have come to figure out I am a feminine person, yet male. I have identity that matches both masculine and feminine. My struggle is in appeasing it all. Both want the driver's seat. So it is that, along with the acceptance of myself that I have a strong feminine identity that demands time behind the wheel.

Having this does not in any way make me anything other than unique. I am no better or worse. I breathe the same air, like to eat, drink, I like intimacy.... like making and winning money. I am so unique yet so much like every other person. I am just a mixture, or mutt of gender.

[Kate T]

Kaley

I feel for you and I think you and your wife are doing really well under the circumstances.

I don't have any specific advice to offer. The only thing I can say is this. It is my opinion that whilst thought provoking, "guidance" or opinions on what is right and wrong from others (I mean counsellors, community leaders etc.) will not necessarily change your views or beliefs. That has to come from internally. This sword can cut both ways. On the one hand, if your wife personal beliefs are that she loves you no matter how you present then believe me, no one and nothing, R leader or doctrine, will break that belief. On the flip side though if your wife believes that what you have is some sort of addiction or illness then no opinion from any professional specialist or otherwise will sway her from that.

Peoples ideas and feelings can change. But it requires information. I think you need to enable your wife to access information as much as possible. Even help her access it. AND you need to be honest and lay yourself out before her figuratively speaking. You love her, that much is clear. She seems like a good person. I think the best way is to open yourself up, not knowing which way it will go. If she loves you as much as it seems then I suspect she won't accept immediately but it may open the door for more communication for her to learn a little more.

Paediatric Trans stories are a good way to demonstrate this is not an addiction. Louis Theroux recently did a special that I believe aired on BBC america on Trans kids. He has a knack of presenting things in a very non judgmental way without preaching. Also no mother will ever see a child in pain and not feel sympathy. If she can see the pain this causes those children then you have the opening to help her learn more.

[kaleyg]

Well, we had a long talk on Wed. morning, and I began to hint for the first time that my view on CDing might be changing -- moving toward seeing it as morally permissible and not in conflict with our "spiritual values". This frightened her. Her words at one point, regarding CDing, were "I hate it." She was red-eyed much of the time. But she was open to a few things: meeting as a couple with my therapist, me having an online chat with someone we both trust who is something of an expert on gender and spirituality, and reading articles or resources I might find online. My therapist has moved toward affirming me, and I think she senses this. Right now she just has this strong, visceral reaction to it that comes from decades of immersion in a certain kind of culture. And, honestly, some of that reaction is just human nature. Even open minded people are a little taken aback when confronted with a cross-dresser.

I'm wondering if, in her mind, she imagines this: I decide it is morally ok, then I start dressing up all the way. She doesn't see anything in between this, or that we could arrange a compromise or take it in baby-steps.

Does anyone know of a good resource, written by an affirming wife who has come from revulsion to acceptance? I've found lots of stuff written by CDers and by wives who just assume that acceptance is the only sane position. It would be good to hear from someone who is honest about their struggle and doubts and doesn't paint it as black and white.

[kimdl93]

It's a start...and a positive that she's willing to join you at the therapists office. It may reassure her to hear something objective about cross dressing and gender identity.

I wish I could offer some references...but I can't think of any that meet your requested criteria.

[avant1465]

Get her a copy of the book "My Husband Wears my Clothes"... which title we've seen on this site, previously. It is a sincere, well-thought-out discussion of a couple wherein the husband is a crossdresser... and how they learned about, discuss and address the "issue" of his crossdressing.....

In my opinion, IF your wife absorbs that book.... and STILL believes that there is - or will be - no change in her objection(s) to your C/D-ing.... THEN you need to sit down and think, real hard, if your marriage can't (and OUGHT NOT) survive. After all... despite your having not revealed this to her prior to marrying.... you NEED to make it a "condition" of YOUR continuing in that marriage.

Some things (attributes) are part of "who we are"... and we needn't spend our lives running away from them....

Good luck...

[michelleddg]

Well done on the long talk. Sounds like you're headed down a good path but, be assured, there will be rocky times ahead. Take the setbacks in stride, always remember the two of you are working towards common goals even if coming from different perspectives.

In addition to "My Husband Wears My Clothes" mentioned above, other respected titles include "My Husband Betty" and "She's Not the Man I Married: My Life with a Transgender Husband". All available on Amazon. Full disclosure - I haven't read any of them. However, you might want to read all 3 and present to your wife the ones that best help your relationship. Best of luck! Hugs, Michelle

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Reading between the lines here a bit, but it sounds like the conversation was as hard on you as her. Still, you did the right thing. I can't make any suggestions on resources fopr your wife beyond what has already been recommended. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss some of the spiritual side of things. I've had some interesting revelations on that front myself this week. Hang in there. Remember the three greatest things: faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love. As long as there is love between you two you will both get through this.

Hugs,
Bridget

[withasmile]

Hmm, she says she "hates it." Why? What part are you expecting her to play in your Crossdressing? Perhaps that is what you need to clarify? Are you expecting her to accompany you dressed on dates, shopping, out with mutual friends, to family events? She may simply be embarrassed, or you may challenge her very own sense of self, femininity and place in the world. How will she introduce you? This is my husband or....? She also may not find you attractive, by the way which she can't help. We are attracted to certain things about our mates, when you change yourself it can be challenging to keep interest and passion alive - even simply weight gain can be off putting for some, never mind a dress and heels.

I have another question for you that will make a huge difference in how your wife handles this. Aside from the CDing, are you a good partner? What would she say if you asked her that question? Crossdressing doesn't have to be the end of the world, can be fun and just an extra element that makes up your relationship, or it can be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Good luck

[Rosaliy Lynne]

a lot of good comments have been posted and I will try not to repeat them.
I have been 3 times divorced. My first never knew but the divorce came because she kept running home to mother.
My second knew and we incorporated that in the bedroom for a while till she decided she didn't like it. She had 3 affairs that I know of and even seduced a gf of mine after she had started her second affair with a mutual friend. She later replaced me with a man she met on the net. That divorce was inevitable. My last was also inevitable for various reasons. I knew she would not accept me because she was upset with my Witch Halloween Costume - 2 years in a row. Ultimately that was not the cause of the divorce. Her kids from prior marriage were more important than our marriage. Additionally, knowing her mind on the matter, I could not have admitted it to her.

The long and the short of it is: you need to get some kind of dialog going even if you need a counselor to be with you for the discussion. I know that you can't stop dressing. I tried and was only successful at putting it off for a time. It is internal to who you are and THAT has to be part of any discussion.

I had resolved, after this last divorce, that anyone who got close enough to me to be worth keeping, HAD to know up front ALL about me. Since I started living as ME - this new person - Rosaliy - I have become more patient as well as more outgoing and NOW I find myself very much in love with another tgirl. Go figure.

Sooner or later you have to reach some decisions vis-a-vis dressing and marriage. A beneficial compromise can save it. A rigid ALL or NOTHING stance on either part will kill it. I wish you all the luck in resolving this favorably.

[kaleyg]

Great advice everyone! This really helps -- thank you! I may try to read "My Husband Wears My Clothes" and see if it would be good to pass along. My therapist also recommended this, thought I don't think she realizes how hard this is for my wife.
Btw, I did tell her before we married, but it was more along the line of telling someone you are a recovering alcoholic.

[Kate T]

My Husband Wears My clothes is a good book in terms of it is quite objective, quite a few different stories. My wife and I found it quite impersonal though and you never really got a feeling of going on a journey with anyone in the book.
My husband Betty is good, Helen Boyd does not deny or shy away from her catholic upbringing or beliefs, BUT.... Betty has now transitioned and in the absence of ANY knowledge this can just reinforce the old stereotype that all CD's eventually transition so may not be the best for your wife. As a side note Helen and Betty are still happily married.

I haven't seen it but apparently the Bruce Jenner interview was done very well though with some emphasis towards the transexual side of things. May be worth a look.

[TrishaTX]

You have to be honest with yourself and her. I too tried to stop a few times and love my wife to death. I am less of a go out a dress girl and more of a slip in the bedroom type of gal. After I came clean, I slowly started the introduction process and so far its been ok. No wigs allowed and a few other rules. Therapy is the key to everything I think...it is a necessity.
I am very masculine outside the bedroom and often make sure I fill her needs but sometimes I just need this. Compromise with someone you love is always necessary. Keep plugging away and trying ...it is too easy to just leave someone today harder to at least try to work it out...if you need to chat you can always email me

[Dana3]

Me, myself and I? I DON'T do threats, ultimatums, blackmail. There's no "Clean-Point" to which to arrive at? There's no "Win-Win" situation that can come of it, and once you give in to it, its a slow steady decent into Hell. Hell for the person that has been given the ultimatum, the threat, or blackmail.

Indeed if you threaten me with such, its going to backfire on you each and every time, as I will be the ONE who makes the very threat you pose upon to me and to me a REALITY! If you threaten me with exposure, divorce, separation, etc...........

I'm going to turn your words into a reality beyond your wildest dreams and imagination. And its NOT going to pretty, its NOT going to be fun, and its going to hit you quick, fast and a in a hurry like!

I'm NOT one to be trifled with. I DON'T come with dice! So don't play with me! Because your only going to get hurt in the short, mid and long run.

Tell everyone I'm "T"?

Bring it!

You can't lose something you've never had to begin with!

You can't lose something you've never lost to begin with!

You can't lose something that isn't yours!