Finally talking to & seeking compromise with my wonderful wife

[kaleyg]

This is a repost from earlier with all references to the "R" word omitted.

So, I'm looking for advice on seeking a compromise with my wife. We've had a zero tolerance policy -- really more of a "this is a disorder/addiction that needs healing" policy. Now I'm back in therapy and realizing -- though my therapist remains neutral -- that the only sustainable path is one where I can find some expression of my feminine side. I've tried complete "abstinence" and this always leads me back to dressing in secret and lying to my wife. My marriage is infinitely more important to me than the dressing, so divorce is not an option. (I have the world's best wife.) My view has slowly changed over the years and I no longer see a strong argument for CDing being (inherently) morally wrong. Given our background, this is a big deal and will be hard for my wife.

Any advice on suggesting small steps of feminine expression? If she agrees to let me dress in some manner, I want to find a way to start that won't overwhelm her. I may suggest letting me dress at my mom's only (far, far away, and my mom is accepting).

Any thoughts on this process? I need to take it slowly because of where she's coming from. I will never demand acceptance or accommodation.

[pamela7]

We need a lot more info before offering any specific advice, Kaley,

Clear explanations, useful frames about how its not really such a big deal, and listening, helping her perhaps seek counselling on dealing with the situation?

[kimdl93]

Have you and your wife actually spoken about how she feels and about how you feel? Before you start negotiating a compromise or trying to come up with specific measures or steps, try to have a fully open conversation...preferably more than one...that focuses on feelings. It may be best if these are moderated by an unbiased family therapist, so things stay constructive and on track.

[michelleddg]

Hi Kaley,

Congratulations on your initiative and I wish you absolutely the best luck and total success in finding happy common ground between you and your wife.

However, I'm moved to offer some tough love. Looking back over your posts over the years, you are waaaaaay into this. You explore your feminine side completely, deeply, and often. You seek small steps of feminine expression that your wife can live with. That's good. However, it just sounds for all the world like you'll be expecting an escalation clause that will allow you to build back to your current level of activity over time. Can you really see yourself making good on, say, 10% of your current level of activity over the long haul? Will you do well with the constant preoccupation and stress that comes with not satisfying a need? Will your wife be happy that your DNA has not changed an iota but you're in a semi-constant state of self-deprivation for the good of the marriage and the associated guilt she'll feel?

You know your capabilities and limitations and maybe you're fully capable of meeting your end of the bargain. But please, double please, be sure before you head to the negotiating table that you don't offer more than you can reasonably deliver. Again, best of luck! Hugs, Michelle

[Michelle (Oz)]

You are likely to have a long road ahead in settling on an arrangement in which you gain the space you need to explore your femme side while your wife can cope with your CDing. What that arrangement looks like is only something you can work out.

Keeping your dressing out of sight of your wife makes a lot of sense but she should at least know that you dress. Three years after my near disastrous reveal to my wife she has not seen me dressed and does not want to but I dress 3 to 4 days a week using a commercial storage garage as my change room. Your mum's place may be a good solution.

My marriage is infinitely more important to me than the dressing, so divorce is not an option. (I have the world's best wife.)

You may be told that the world's best wife would be more accepting. There is a natural reaction to rejection thinking that our wives do not really love us. I did work out that my wife did love me unconditionally even though my dressing was abhorrent to her. What unconditional love means in my wife's case is that she copes by putting my dressing out of her mind and our loving relationship thrives.

We've had a zero tolerance policy --

This sounds more like your wife's policy ... I don't see how "We" comes into it. Most CDers are burdened by guilt from the impact our dressing has on our wives. It places us at a disadvantage in pressing for some accommodation of our needs and a zero tolerance policy is the norm. Unless you can reach a compromise that gives you some space your future will be one of frustration, hurt, dishonesty and stress. You are finding that already.

Be firm and resolute but sensitive in your discussions with your wife, and don't make promises that you are unlikely to keep. Good luck.

[Leslie Langford]

What michelle said...

kaley, from your past posts, it is also evident that you have already confided in your mother regarding your crossdressing. Not only does she seem to be O.K. with this activity, she is now at the point of actively encouraging it, allowing you to dress at her place whenever you please (which you apparently are taking full advantage of, more and more) and has even accompanied you out in public when you are dressed en femme. Once your wife finds out about this - and she will, sooner or later - whether as part of this discussion, or at a future date - THAT'S when the excrement will really hit the ventilator, and it won't about the crossdressing per se. It will then be more about the fact that not only are you doing this behind her back (trust issues), your mother will be seen as trying to drive a wedge between you and her by helping you indulge in an activity that she clearly abhors. In short, your wife will see you as a "Momma's boy" (girl?), and that will kill her respect for you far more than seeing you in a dress ever will.

I really have no advice to offer as to how to extract yourself from this web of deceit and self-indulgence that you have created for yourself here. All I can do is alert you to the minefield that you are about to enter into, and suggest that you have an exit strategy or Plan "B" in place in case this blows up in your face in ways ways that you didn't anticipate. Perhaps using your therapist as an intermediary to do some damage control and "spin doctoring" to make the message/request that you are about to deliver to your wife as palatable as possible?

[justmetoo]

You seem pretty cool to me, Kaley. I have no advice. But I wish you the best!

[DanaR]

You seem pretty cool to me, Kaley. I have no advice. But I wish you the best!

I just wanted to chime in and agree with justmetoo.

[kaleyg]

Sooooo, I guess I'm pretty naive about this. Everyone's made some good points. Thank you everyone!
I did think I would start small and maybe progress . . . but, I don't know. If I can't go all the way to "going out", you're right -- it might be hard to give that up completely. Of course, the "world's greatest wife" is hyperbole, but I don't really fault her for being where she is right now on the issue. It would be like faulting a 6th century astronomer for thinking the sun revolved around the earth. She is just getting started in thinking about the issue and everything around her says its wrong.
Maybe this is a bad idea, or morally wrong or something, but I'm hoping to ease into the truth. I want to ask permission to dress at my mom's, after talking to my mom, and then I don't have to lie anymore. No need to bring up the past. I can't see any constructive reason for that.
The zero-tolerance policy was ours because I agreed to it and at one point believed it was the best thing. My views have changed.
Honestly, I don't know how much I need to be happy. Maybe I need to continue what I've shown in previous posts -- maybe I can be happy with less once I don't have to lie anymore. I don't know. But if she allows me to dress at my mom's, and maybe lets me go out (that will be a hard one), then that's about as far as I've ever gone.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Painting your toe nails, neutral if she can't stand color.
Moisturizing face, neck, hands, feet.
Plucking and shaping eyebrows - a little - yours look perfect right now!
Underdressing in panties, maybe a slip: no bras, no forms.
Sleep-wear - only you know what she might tolerate.

The next logical step would be some androgynous clothing inside the house, but again only you know what might work.

Good luck- you look fabulous in your avatar by the way- what a pretty smile!

[PaulaQ]

My marriage is infinitely more important to me than the dressing, so divorce is not an option. (I have the world's best wife.)

My guess is that you'll discover that, never the less, one of the two is much easier to end than the other, and I guess that won't be the dressing, since you've already tried that. And she may be the worlds' best wife - but she may not be the best for you if she can't accept this.

By the way, if she is completely unaccepting, particularly if this is perceived as a moral failure, no amount of incremental increase of feminine expression on your part is liable to ease her in to this.

Some women really strongly prefer very masculine men. If she's one of those, you are in for a very difficult time.

I wish you well, but this may be difficult.

[Erika Lyne]

Hey KayleG,

As we all know, CDing isn't ever "cured," nor is it a classic "addiction." It can be accepted by a spouse/SO but often with stifling limits. I didn't plan for my curent state with my wife, nor did I seek advice on how to approach her about it but I have progressed pretty much as Nikkilovesdresses mentioned: under dressing at first, polish on the toes and more over time. I first came out to my wife 27 years ago, I wear women's panties nearly every day and I can now dress at home to whatever extent I wish but I always try to keep her comfort level in mind. Many times I want to raid my own closet but supress it just because I feel that she may not be in the mood. Also, I know it is a limit for her with me wearing items to bed. If I do she acts as if it is just a sleep over, no romance. Another limit is no PDA/semi-PDA if I'm dressed, just friends. This is difficult for me but it is something she just isn't comfortable with. I can only try to help her be more comfortable but I cannot change her POV.

I fear that your needs are too great for her to accept anywhere as quickly as you wish. Maybe if you were to both go to your therapist together she might be able to see how this hurts you and that your love for her is true. I'm truely reaching but so many people swear by couple's therapy.

Also, there was a thread recently about a member here that had quite a rough run in with his wife. It might be worth a read. I can honestly say that this sounds like it could end up being you one day...please be cautious, careful and considerate. IF you find limits you can both live with be sure to honor them until you BOTH are able to agree to new ones. I push my wife's limits slower than I'd prefer but our results are often positive.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...h-Today!/page2

Best of luck,
-E

[Marcelle]

Hi Kaley,

I note from your responses and previous posts that you and your wife have discussed your dressing and as such, have come to this "zero tolerance" policy to which you agreed. I guess you now know this is not possible. I have always been a firm believer that when boundaries/rules/guidelines are decided upon, they should not be set in stone and to that both parties (the CDer and the SO) have to agree they can be opened for negotiation. With no flexibility built in, it is likely to lead to disaster later on down the road. IMHO, I think it is time to reopen the conversation about your CDing. It seems to have moved to a more integral part of your life which gives you great joy.

I won't sugar coat this . . . it will be a difficult conversation because it appears your wife has no tolerance for this part of you. I understand that you don't want to hurt your relationship but, if you could just do your thing on occasion, put it away and continue being happy in your life (easy peasy), I would say do so. However, from your description not being able to dress is causing you some emotional distress and as such, should you decided to just submerge, limit or stop dressing, it is likely the emotional distress will bleed out into your relationship in other ways . . . anger, resentment, depression, bitterness. All of these will most likely cause strain on your relationship. I would talk to your wife and try to explain to her how this makes you feel and if she wants no part of it, that is fine . . . many exist in a DADT relationship here. Good luck.

Hugs

Isha

[audreyinalbany]

I notice from your original post the "I'm back in therapy…" Perhaps you and the Mrs need to consider "We're" in therapy. This is an issues that needs you both to discuss and learn to live with. If, after counseling, she still finds it "abhorrent ', then you've got a whole new problem to deal with.

[Krisi]

It seems to me that if you are seeing a therapist but coming here for answers, you might need a new therapist. Also, seeing a therapist for crossdressing is saying that crossdressing is some sort of illness that needs to be cured. Is that why you're seeing the therapist?

If your wife insists on "no crossdressing" and you are not willing to stop crossdressing, the answer is pretty clear - it's not a good, loving marriage and it's time to get out.

On the other hand, if you can convince your wife that crossdressing is not "sick" and causes nobody any harm, you may be able to save the marriage.

[kaleyg]

Krisi -- I do like my therapist, but she has admitted that she doesn't have much experience with transgender/crossdressing clients. I have found her helpful in processing all this, though. You all have experience with this -- intimate experience.
Paula -- I believe that I could sustain the pattern I've been experiencing the last decade or so -- refrain from cding for a year or two (with some fantasizing), then I slip back into it secretly, then I confess or get caught, repeat. If I had to choose this repeating cycle or divorce, I'd choose the cycle. I'd probably cut off my right arm if it would save my marriage.
What I told my therapist last time was that I'm leaning toward seeking a compromise with my wife. I'm unconvinced that cding is morally wrong or that being bi-gender is a disorder, and so I think it would be ok to explore given how strongly I feel it. I think my therapist feels the same way. I'm just hoping that my wife will slowly come to see it also. Then she might allow some small expressions at home and maybe more at my mom's.
I'm having a conversation with a expert on faith/gender/sexuality that we both trust on Wednesday. If she agrees that this might be ok, then that will carry some weight with my wife.
I'm considering inviting my wife to meet with my therapist in a couples setting. Its a good idea.

[char GG]

Just out of curiousity, did your wife know about your dressing before you got married? If not, why?

[Krisi]

The term " bi-gender" gets thrown around quite a bit on this forum. I'm not sure if it a legitimate medical term or just something gets used here.

If you mean what I think you mean by that term, I see a problem with your marriage. It's one thing for a woman to accept that her husband likes to prance around in woman's clothing, wig, forms, etc., but quite something else if he believes he's not "all man". Certainly most women expect the man they marry to be just that, a "man". Not something in-between a man and a woman.

Perhaps your therapist can help you figure out where you stand on this. Then, take it from there.

BTW: I'm fully dressed as a woman as I write this but I know inside that I am a straight male who is a crossdresser. No confusion as to "gender".

[Tina_gm]

one thing I would recommend is to find a qualified gender therapist. Find one who does not have an agenda, most don't but sometimes you do come across them.

My thoughts are that before or if there is ever any cding in the presence of a partner we must 1st get to a place where there is a general comfort of acceptance of dressing. Too many cders will try to jump ahead to a partners participating, and sometimes that just won't ever work out well.

In your case it sounds as if your wife has to come to a place where she will not view your dressing as an illness that can be cured by abstaining or prayer or therapy. Dressing in her presence before this happens will likely cause further struggle.

[Tracii G]

From what I have been garnering from reading your posts is you have a selfish wife to some degree.
Look at it this way is she free to do whatever she wants to do but when it comes to you its her way and thats it?
If she truly loved you for the person you are she would at least try to understand.
Perhaps if you flipped the situation around where she was the CD'er expressing her male side.
Tell her how you would support her no matter what.
Marriage is a two way street and a compromise. I have been in one sided marriages and it sucks so I do understand.

Like other have said find a qualified therapist that deals in gender related cases.

[Bridget Ann Gilbert]

Kaley,
Like some of the others here I’ve gone back through your previous posts to get a better sense of how you’ve come to this point. Without dwelling on the past I am glad to see that you are now doing everything you can to deal with things as honestly as possible. I sincerely hope you will be able to work things out with your wife and still satisfy your needs. To that end, my advice on reaching a compromise is that whatever you do, be sure that you find a way to keep meeting her needs. The deal with going to your mother’s to dress also involves you not spending time with your wife. That loss of time together can lead to feelings of isolation and separation in your relationship, and it may result in her building resentment against Kaley. She becomes “the other woman”. As you discuss moving forward you need to reassure her that you are still her husband and you truly value your relationship. The whole idea of compromise involves both people getting something out of the deal. You need to make sure your wife receives some benefit too.
I also want to disagree with Krisi’s view of therapy. Going to counseling because of crossdressing is not a sign that there is something wrong with it. It is important that you go through a process to understand what compels you to dress and how it fits into your life. Remember the Greek axiom “Know Thyself”. I don’t think you will be successful in leading your wife to a better understanding of why you need dress until you do yourself. I hope that becomes one of the goals of your sessions, if it isn’t one already.
One of my most important hobbies is photography. As a photographer I know that photographs always show what is real and true. When I look at your photos I see a woman with complete joy on her face and in her heart. Kaley brings out the real you. It will be a shame if you ever lose that. I truly hope things work out for you. There will be tough times ahead. I hope you might consider me someone to turn to when that happens.

Hugs,
Bridget

[Tina_gm]

I want to comment a little about what Traci said. To me, the selfish aspects of a wife are when she wants to reverse course, or have her partner do less or quit, rather than find a compromise. What makes this so difficult for partners when they were not told until after a commitment is that ultimately they will be the ones who are giving, the cder taking. It is just a matter of how much.

Unfortunately in the case of the op. They made the agreement not to, now the op will need to convince her wife to go back on an agreement. as I have seen and learned myself, try not to make hard agreements like I will never or I will only etc etc. Again, what happens is the wife is giving her cd partner is getting. .

I really do agree though, that marriage does need to be a 2 way street. It is just that so often so many of us enter into a marriage under a falsehood of our true selves. No matter how you dice it, that is always an unfair position to our partners.

[Launa]

Well from looking at your profile picture I can say like others here that you are not a small time, underdressing, weekend panty thriller. This is a big part of your life from what you have said I think you will need to figure out how you can negotiate something in strong terms not just in passing kind of talk. First you need to get your wife to the negotiating table to discuss this topic. You should have a counsellor there or else it can all run a muck real fast. Without a counsellor its like trying to defend yourself without a lawyer in court. Don't do it unless you are a pro already. Once you agree to meet then I suggest you write out your goals ahead of time and they should go something along the lines like:

Best possible outcome for me is ________. If you win this then you've won hands down and you then will have the worlds best wife for you.

Next Best outcome _______. If you win this one will you be ok with it?

Last outcome________. If you win this one will you be ok with it? Be honest

If the wife says no way to any of it then and you can't strike a deal then can you live the rest of your life with her? I'm sure you can but how miserable will you be?

[kaleyg]

I REALLY appreciate all that is being said. It is helpful and insightful.
I may be wrong here, but here's why I don't think my wife's resistance is selfish. In her eyes, it is like alcoholism. No wife would be seen as selfish who refused to enable her husband's alcoholism. Her position is the rational and loving one. However, I think she may be slowly coming to see my desire to dress as something disanalogous to alcohol abuse. If she comes to see it as morally neutral (as I am coming to believe), but still says "no way," that would be selfish.
I did tell her before we got married, but what we both believed at the time was the alcoholism analogy. So, she wasn't entering into marriage with any expectation other than that I would struggle and fight to overcome this desire/behavior. She might expect some failure on my part, but she wouldn't expect that I would ask for her acceptance.
Bridget, part of me believes that Kaley is in my soul. But part of me doesn't. For so long I believed it was a fetish. An unfortunate behavioral association between sexual arousal and women's clothing. But I'm doubting this now. For one, I first had the desire to dress when I was 5 or 6. I even told my parents I wanted to be a girl. But I don't remember really wanting to be a girl after that. I think the sexual aspect was accidental and came later. Today, there is still sexual excitement sometimes, but when I'm dressed and out its not sexual at all. I don't understand it, honestly.
Fortunately, when I visit my mom's, it's for business travel, so it isn't as if I go there *just* to dress. So, I don't think going there will hurt our marriage.
Krisi -- I don't know if I'm bigender for sure. But I have always felt somewhere in between. I have a lot of traits typical of women. I'm musical, I love art and flowers, I'm emotional and sensitive, I'm talkative. I have a somewhat androgynous body-type that looks just as good in an evening gown as in a suit. I look awkward in men's t-shirts because of my thin frame. I have nice legs for a man. I have very long eyelashes, but a strong jawline as well. I score 50/50 on gender tests and my ring finger is the same length as my index finger (typical of women). I have small feet, etc, etc. I feel like it is more than just a hobby or a fetish. When I am dressed, I am a woman.

[rosetyler]

If your wife doesn't accept you for who you are, is she really the worlds best wife for you to be with? Both of you need to have lots of communication: open, honest, respectful, and direct. Each person may have to make compromises so that a happen medium can be met. Zero tolerance is no compromise.