Misinformation

[Dianne S]

I know two people (one who did have SRS, I'm not sure about the other) who have detransitioned. I don't know the work situation, but the marriages were lost, damage was done to relationships with children and other people in their lives.

Oh, I agree with you completely that detransitioning is the absolute worst-case scenario and is to be avoided at all costs. That must have been an awful experience for the people you know.

There will always be some people who transition and then regret it. That's just a fact of life and we should not try to dismiss or minimize it. I also agree with Reine's point that TSes who make glib statements to CDers that they're probably going to transition are irresponsible.

I think our only point of disagreement is that I think it's OK to point out the reality that some TSes start out seeming to be CDers and only later realize they're TS. I do not think hiding truthful information helps anyone, so long as we disseminate the information in a responsible way with lots of qualifiers saying the numbers are unknown and likely quite small.

[PaulaQ]

There are many possible reasons one might detransition. I think the most probable explanation is that these were people forced into the gender binary who simply did not fit it. So medically transitioning them to women ultimately did not solve their issues of dysphoria - neither gender would entirely. I expect there are cases where underlying psychological issues mimic GD, and transition was inappropriate. Also, not every patient who suffers from a medical condition gets better with treatment. Our existing treatments are sort of crude. Why are we surprised this happens here, but not with other physical conditions?

The frequency of these occurrences seem rare though - yet "OMG detransition!" gets thrown around on this forum a lot. Out of several hundred trans people I know, I know two, one who did detransition, and one who probably will. The first did so after a few months on HRT, when they realized it wasn't for them. The second one has been living as a woman for years. I'll be unsurprised if she continues to do so. (Scratch that - I know of three. The third simply can't medically tolerate estrogen, it will kill her.) I'd also point out Bruce Jenner, who pretty obviously detransitioned at least once - so even doing that doesn't prove much, because here he goes again.

About half the crossdressers I know tell me they've considered transition. (The other half are adamant they'll never do this.) We should not try to pretend that "so many detransition!" and "almost no CDs do!" because as a married woman, as good as those ideas might make you feel, they are almost wholly untrue.

CDing is a very common symptom for many of us who transition. You can pretend this is untrue all you want, but you are just lying to yourself.

None of the above, however, implies that your CD spouse will transition.

Oh, I agree with you completely that detransitioning is the absolute worst-case scenario and is to be avoided at all costs. That must have been an awful experience for the people you know.

The problem with preventing detransition is that it is largely impossible. No set of probing questions from a therapist is going to prove conclusively that someone is or is not in need of transition. I'm not saying you believe this, but there is a persistent belief by many on this forum that there exists some magical way to show: "this person will transition, this person will never transition." We don't know that we'll ever have such a diagnostic tool, or whether such a thing can even exist. I'll be unsurprised if all we are able to do is confirm "yes, what this person says about their identity seems to be backed up by the physical structure of their brains." You still wouldn't know, for sure, until you tried.

[Teresa]

Chris_Cross,
It feels like a week since I read your thread and worked through the replies !
Trying to come back to your point, I feel that my wife and possibly many others never lose the thought of losing their partner once you've come out to them ! Even basic dressing doesn't help them !
Is it misinformation or not facing the truth ? Long term there may be an increase in denial going on !

The problem I'm finding is thinking that with age all this will go away hasn't happened ! Thinking I just have a problem wanting to wear women's clothes is developing into the idea that there's something more going on, deep feelings that just don't go away !
I believe now that many CDers can't honestly say they won't transition to some degree given the chance , they can manage to hold onto enough of their male traits and responsibilities , OK call it fighting the pink fog and winning !
I know now I have more than one issue in my brain continuously taking me down the possible TS route !

[Sallee]

Chris I would have to agree with you. I am a happy cross dresser who has really never thought about transitioning at least not seriously. IN fact I think a good therapist should work on trying to make you not transition but just to be happy being who you are, to enjoy yourself being who you are. If that means getting out and about dressed as a woman then go for it, enjoy. Do you really need an operation to do that, to cut off a piece of anatomy that no one can see. Untill the operation includes making me shorter narrowing my shoulders and waist and widening my hips I don't think it is for me.
This is just me. if having SRS is going to make you happy then I guess do it. Everyone has to do what is best for them

[PaulaQ]

IN fact I think a good therapist should work on trying to make you not transition but just to be happy being who you are, to enjoy yourself being who you are.

I think all a good therapist can help you do is:
- figure out who you really are, whatever that means for you
- help you find strategies to be more comfortable with that, whatever the truth is for you. Discomfort over who we really are is common, unfortunately. (This applies to many things, not just being trans.)

Do you really need an operation to do that, to cut off a piece of anatomy that no one can see. Untill the operation includes making me shorter narrowing my shoulders and waist and widening my hips I don't think it is for me.

So you want to alter your secondary sexual characteristics? (just kidding!)

This is just me. if having SRS is going to make you happy then I guess do it. Everyone has to do what is best for them

Sallee, nobody does any of this to be happy. Would you say to a cancer patient - "Well, chemo wouldn't be for me, but if it makes you happy, go for it?" Or perhaps to someone who's bipolar "well, if it makes you happier, take your meds, but I don't see the point." Actually in that case, for some bipolar people, the meds make them decidedly less happy. Part of their problem is a manic phase where they are out of control. I've been told by people who suffer from this that it's really fun to experience - until you come to your senses and realize you've done some really unusual things.

This is about dealing with pretty serious discomfort. If that's your only problem then, yup, odds are, you'll be happy. If you have other issues, you may find this isn't the case at all - your crappy life is still your crappy life, but at least you feel less dysphoria.

I'll get GCS primarily because I'm really tired about having nightmares about the stupid thing between my legs, and feel quite a bit of discomfort and embarrassment that it's there. I dislike just about everything about it, and never really enjoyed using it for its intended purpose. In the past it has proved to be handy on camping trips - that's about it.

BTW, they don't cut it off. It's still there - "repurposed and reshaped" would be a better description.

[Stephanie47]

I did not read the 150+ postings to your thread. Yep, your observations hit dead on. I can understand a woman has some serious concerns whether or not her husband is going to transition to being a woman. As a plain vanilla CD-er I cannot explain to my wife why I do what I do. She asked me, and, I told her I truly do not know why. I can tell her how I feel, that cross dressing is a stress reliever. I have never tried to give her a bull@#$% line that I do it because I love the clothing. Try telling a woman why you feel it is necessary to wear a bra. My wife still does not understand. Me too!

That being said, if my wife came to this site trying to gain knowledge, she is going to find a wide range of men wearing women's clothing. I know she fully understands and accepts the fact there are men and women born into the wrong body. My wife is smart enough to weed through the morass of statements indicating wait, just wait, here comes the hormones or presenting as a female 24/7 365 days a year. I suppose there are many very young brides who discovered there is something else lurking in their man that was totally foreign to them. Yikes! She will need help sorting out that out.

One thing anyone who seeks advice on this site and other sites, it is worth exactly what you paid for it. Remember, once the Genie is out of the bottle, she will not go back in. My desire to wear women's clothing has nothing to do with transitioning to a woman.

[Badtranny]

Out of several hundred trans people I know,

Sheesh Paula, why do you say stuff like this? How do you know several hundred trans people? Your posts are usually seasoned with a bit of hyperbole but please keep in mind that too much can taste like plain old exaggeration, and that just spoils the whole presentation, if you know what I mean. Basically this is why I take everything you say with a grain of salt.

I realize we live different lives, but I get roughly a thousand visitors a month to my blog. A few of them contact me directly with questions or comments every month. I don't "know" these people but I do hear from them and it is nowhere near 'several hundred' even after the 3 or 4 years my site has been up. I don't do much 'community' stuff, but by virtue of being trans and living in God's country I do tend to meet a few here and there. I would say that I "know" roughly two dozen trans women (they have been to my house) and about a dozen of them I know well enough to call and hang out with.

Now I would never claim to be a social butterfly and I do have a tendency to keep to myself so let's use that as a divisor and give you a multiplier of 5. If you 'knew' FIVE times more trans women than me it would still fall waaaaay short of several hundred. Hell if it was TEN times more, it still wouldn't get you there.

I know Dallas is a progressive city (by Texas standards) and I know you're a bit of a community gadfly but how in the heck can you know several hundred trans people? I don't even know several hundred PEOPLE.

[cheryl reeves]

like i have stated before not all ts's transition,instead they try to find a place of reconciling both sides..you might say im a hermorphidite,woman on top man on the bottom,to me transitioning would be the same as amputeeing a arm or leg.some transition only to have sex as a woman,some do it for other reasons and live lives of uncertainty,or being a total out cast. to me gender therapists are our worst enemy for you say the right words and wallah your now on hrt heading for the chopping machine. when i run across a pink fogger i tell them slow down or you might find yourself in a predicument that is gard to reverse.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Chris I would have to agree with you. I am a happy cross dresser who has really never thought about transitioning at least not seriously. IN fact I think a good therapist should work on trying to make you not transition but just to be happy being who you are, to enjoy yourself being who you are. If that means getting out and about dressed as a woman then go for it, enjoy. Do you really need an operation to do that, to cut off a piece of anatomy that no one can see. Untill the operation includes making me shorter narrowing my shoulders and waist and widening my hips I don't think it is for me.
This is just me. if having SRS is going to make you happy then I guess do it. Everyone has to do what is best for them

Nobody that understands what a transsexual is would ever say this.

tee hee....i'd get the surgery if they could widen my hips...LOL...ummmm no
Ignorance is bliss.

This message is actually a wonderful microcosm of the ignorance of many crossdressers towards transsexuals..

I'm glad not all cd's share this view, but it highlights how our actual problem and our needs are often disbeleived by many people at some primal level

[stefan37]

like i have stated before not all ts's transition,instead they try to find a place of reconciling both sides..you might say im a hermorphidite,woman on top man on the bottom,to me transitioning would be the same as amputeeing a arm or leg.some transition only to have sex as a woman,some do it for other reasons and live lives of uncertainty,or being a total out cast. to me gender therapists are our worst enemy for you say the right words and wallah your now on hrt heading for the chopping machine. when i run across a pink fogger i tell them slow down or you might find yourself in a predicument that is gard to reverse.

Not even close. Some know unequivocally and move right along. Others struggle and take much longer. Transition is an extremely long process and yeah some do move quicker and end up regretting it. The majority of us know whether surgery is right or not before signing up.

I don't have any idea where the op would get the impression that A ts would tell anybody they need to transition. This is as sucky a condition imaginable. It completely disrupts all that are involved in our life. My need to transition inflicted way more anguish in my ex's and kids life than they deserved.

Yes there are bad therapists, and there are good ones. Therapy is absolutely a benefit to rule out co morbid conditions in addition to guiding an individual through there issues and the obstacles they may encounter.

For those of you that can CD or live in the middle successfully. Great. I'm happy for you. But if cd'ing or living in the middle causes distress. Your options are too desk with it and mitigate it however you can. Or suck it up and move forward incurring any losses that accompany moving forward. Including regret.

[sometimes_miss]

To paraphrase the Bard, then: To transition, or not transition, that is the question. Written for your evaluation, I decided to wait a bit to write this, so perhaps some of you could easily open a second window to compare mine with Michelle789's post #130. The end result I came to was that I'm somewhere between CD and TS. Judge for yourself. (my more complete history & timeline is in the writers forum, link in my sig). Here we go.

I didn't like rough and tumble play either, and was also quite sensitive. The first, however, was mostly because I was always the littlest kid and routinely got pretty beat up in the process, always losing at any sort of physical competition; that'll kind of kill the enthusiasm for those 'boy' activities. My one episode of expressing desire to be a girl was dressing up to get mom's attention, jealous of my older sister. The self identity thing as female was years away.

I was not aggressive and didn't know how to approach girls either (well then, how many boys do?)

I was sexually abused, and basically became someone's private little girlfriend from age 7 on, often dressing up and behaving as a girl almost every day. Conditioned to believe I was a girl, by 8 it wasn't so much that I wanted to grow up to be a woman, but that I expected it. With that understood in my child brain, I accepted it, and in short order, embraced it. So I planned my life in that direction. This self reinforcement probably went a long way towards gender dysphoria later on.

I wanted to, and did, wear girls clothing often throughout the rest of my childhood and adolescence whenever I could. Kept things well hidden. I much later figured out that the draw was due to the innate desire for affection which was for me, connected to dressing, and behaving, as a girl. The only physical contact I ever had with another human being, and not being hit, was when I was in the arms of the guy who was having sex with me. Granted, not the ideal way to get the physical contact a child needs, but it was apparently better than nothing. Or so it seemed at the time.

I too was taunted as a sissy through childhood and adolescence. Rather than fight, I simply found ways to avoid other boys. Out of sight, out of mind. The vast majority of my time in life has been alone.

At age 14, the 'hook' of affection is gone; by then, I'm reinforcing the crossdressing behavior myself. Like Pavlov's dogs, I exhibit the behavior even when no 'reward' is forthcoming. And I still feel like I'm supposed to be a girl.

As opposed to Michelle, my body is not maturing through my mid teens at all; I wonder why? The gender identification becomes more confusing. Crossdresser, transsexual, not gay, but not exactly straight, what am I?

I consider TS and SRS but back then, it's almost completely unheard of, there are no support systems in place. I could never afford it so it isn't a possibility. I still feel like I'm a girl, but can't do anything about it.

Also, through my teens, romantic and sexual fantasies are distorted; Im very often a girl in the fantasies, but it's always with another girl. Why?? I can't figure that out. A TS lesbian? now that doesn't make sense, does it? (this was in the 60's and 70's). The discrepancy in self sexual ID in my fantasies has never resolved. When I see a pretty girl, I want to be her AND be with her. What a mess.

Socially isolated, very depressed I can't do much academically. Wanted to be a doctor, but can't keep the grades up long enough. Try business, do well, but hate every minute of it. Go back to school, manage to keep the grades up just long enough to become a nurse, at least I get to work in a field that I like. But becoming a nurse really screws up the gender confusion more, as in my mind the image of nurse is completely dominated by the idea of a pretty woman in a white dress. And every time I have to tell anyone what I am, the image of that stays in my mind. And so I see myself that way for many years. But the choice was, take a job I hate and be miserable, hoping for that to get my gender identity in order, or do what I love and continue to be screwed up? I basically chose the latter, at least I could bury myself in my work.

I also prefer the company of women, always have. But I understood men better until I got to around 40.

Still feel like I'm supposed to be female; but it's not the overwhelming, constant feeling that that mtf TS women say they feel, though. Just sort of an always in the background feeling that the body isn't quite right, that I'm not dressed right, not behaving right. Like a subtle itch that never quite goes away, it's always there. So, why not transition? Simple. It's not a good fit. I think like a man. I'm attracted to women. Im turned off by men, and don't trust men at all, so no relationship happening there. There is virtually NO possibility of an intimate relationship of any type with a woman should I transition. The number of women who are interested in dating a MTF post op TS are even less than the number of women who will date a CD; you could probably count them on one hand. I would be considered a freak by my coworkers. It would reintroduce me back to the time when I went through life always having to worry about being attacked physically. I would also lose my family and few friends. I would be completely alone, and that would kill me. And of course, I'm over six feet tall and on the high side of 250 pounds. The pretty woman that I want to be? Not a chance. Nope, not a good idea. Add it all up, and I'm not really cut out to be a woman. I don't hate being a man; it's not really right, and so it's not perfect, but it'll do
And like Michelle, it took me >30 years to figure it all out, reading everything I could get my hands on, taking every psych course I could, and once the online world became available, discussed this with every person that I could. So I understang why so many really have no idea why they have this gender identity problem.

And the most important thing that keeps me from doing something stupid, is, I've reconciled in my mind that we're not that different. Most of our lives, whether male or female, are the same. Throughout our day, wake up the same, wash, prepare food, feed the pets, eat, wash dishes, drive to work, work, come home, etc, almost all the same. I can deal with the few minutes of differences. CD'er, TG, non op TS, doesn't matter. Sure, if I could have been a normal, average girl from say, 14 on, life probably would have worked out much better. But that possibility was never going to happen. Life goes on.

I hope this provides some insight.

[Badtranny]

And the most important thing that keeps me from doing something stupid, is, I've reconciled in my mind that we're not that different. Most of our lives, whether male or female, are the same. Throughout our day, wake up the same, wash, prepare food, feed the pets, eat, wash dishes, drive to work, work, come home, etc, almost all the same. I can deal with the few minutes of differences. CD'er, TG, non op TS, doesn't matter. Sure, if I could have been a normal, average girl from say, 14 on, life probably would have worked out much better. But that possibility was never going to happen. Life goes on.

Perfect.

Better to realize this now rather than later.

If I'm being 100% honest, I can't say for sure that I would do it all over again. I've had a pretty good transition overall and I'm pretty darn happy with my body. I feel comfortable in my skin for the first time in my life.

...BUT, the price for that satisfaction is extremely high and I wouldn't advise anyone that it's worth it. (any old broads that is, the kids are alright)

[Michelle789]

@sometimes_miss

Very good introspection. The differences in our stories illustrate that there are many places we can fall on the spectrum. We're not just all TS, CD, or failures as men.

Sometimes there are other conditions as well that might prevent our bodies from maturing properly. I personally know of a genderqueer (born male) whose body didn't mature during their teens, ended up taking testosterone (and still does), but identifies as queer, and dresses and behaves in a way that just bends and blends gender expressions and gender roles.

[PaulaQ]

Sheesh Paula, why do you say stuff like this? How do you know several hundred trans people? Your posts are usually seasoned with a bit of hyperbole but please keep in mind that too much can taste like plain old exaggeration, and that just spoils the whole presentation, if you know what I mean. Basically this is why I take everything you say with a grain of salt.

Actually I lead a local trans organization, and it wouldn't surprise me if I knew more trans people than you do at this point. I'm heavily involved in the community. I see people at our meetings and talk with them. (I try to make the rounds and talk with everyone.) I message people on facebook. I'm not sure how many I've had to my house. It's not uncommon for me to have people I've never met in person come over to my place though. A couple of weeks ago, I helped two girls from out of town with their makeup (one had never done her makeup before, the other just needed a place to change) before an awards ceremony for my group. They wanted to look nice. I do stuff like that all the time.

Yeah, hundreds is an exaggeration - although I am friended with hundreds of local trans people on facebook, and I follow their posts, and quite a number of them do post about their transitions.

Also, I tend to be the person people come to when they are having problems. I can't solve nearly all of their problems - lord I wish I could.

My only point being that I really do know an awful lot of people in transition, and relatively few of them detransition. Really it seems quite rare to me, at least if you get past the first year. As for people who regret GCS, the statistic I've seen is about 1% of us. So this seems quite rare.

Do you disagree that this is rare? My experience is that most people who detransition either:
1. Fail to launch - they never really get their transition going, often because of lack of resources, and sometimes because really, they weren't serious
2. Run out of coins - stop HRT because they lose their job
3. It's not for me - discover after a few months on HRT that they simply don't feel better
4. Do the hokey pokey - "put your left foot in, take your left foot out..." - some people start, then stop, then start again later, until they either give up, or finish

Anyway, if you feel this is a common problem, regret, detransition, etc. I'd like to hear about it. The only woman I know who may regret her vaginoplasty regrets it because her doctor seriously botched the job, and figured "aww, it's OK, she's probably a lesbian, right?" (He actually asked her whether or not she had a boyfriend!)

I don't have any doubt whatsoever that this stuff happens. I know it happens - I talk to people who've done it. I just don't talk to many of them. I only know one person who may detransition after several years. This happens too. I also know they used the best gender therapist in the area (I know the gender therapists in the area. There's only one I'm aware of with whom I haven't met personally.) So if their therapist couldn't see this coming, I don't really see how anyone else could.

...BUT, the price for that satisfaction is extremely high and I wouldn't advise anyone that it's worth it. (any old broads that is, the kids are alright)

This is one area our perspective differs. I fear absolutely nothing on this earth more than the feelings of gender dysphoria I faced a couple of years ago. There is literally nothing anyone could threaten me with that would make me agree to detransition. (In fact, I don't really feel much fear about any number of situations - this is sometimes rather dangerous for me.) If I hadn't done this, I'd be dead. No question about it. I needed about one more attempt on my life than I made, and I'd have finally gotten it right and ended it. I'm not saying your perspective is wrong or invalid - it's totally valid and I can appreciate where you are coming from. My perspective is that there is nothing in this life that I'll encounter that is worse than what I've already felt. And if I ever have the misfortune of discovering something worse than my GD, I'll simply end my life. (Weirdly enough, knowing this makes me want to live.)

Look, you and I have had very different paths through this, and we are different people in different situations. I'm not surprised our perspectives differ on these matters.

Sure, if I could have been a normal, average girl from say, 14 on, life probably would have worked out much better. But that possibility was never going to happen. Life goes on.

Honey, many of us would've been so much better off had it worked out that way for us. My god, I can't even begin to tell you how much better it would've been for me.

That said, I'll tell you the same thing I tell others - it is only to late to transition when you are dead. If you don't face such a horrible quandary - "transition or die", then I'm very happy for you, and can only wish you the best, and hope the path you are on is the best one for you. Sometimes all our choices suck - that is one of the awful parts of being trans.

[Dianne S]

...BUT, the price for that satisfaction is extremely high and I wouldn't advise anyone that it's worth it. (any old broads that is, the kids are alright)

Everybody's experience is different. So far, my transition (I'm one year into transitioning but only a month into full-time living) has gone quite smoothly. My family has been extremely supportive and most of my friends have stayed with me. I also have made lots of new friends as Dianne.

On the loss side, my marriage did end though it was heading for disaster anyway, regardless of the transgender complication, and an old high school friend has pretty much cut off contact. But overall, I've experienced almost none of the awful losses mentioned by a lot of people on this forum and I'm a heck of a lot happier living as a woman.

I think I'm just very lucky.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

it was unquestionably worth it for me..in fact, from the moment i got my hair done as the start of 'full time' i can say i never once had a feeling of doubt...

but i admit i am lucky
Circumstances matter... my work and financial circumstances were actually helpful to my transition...waiting till i was almost 50 gave me savings to tap for all the $$
my kids ended up accepting me and my ex basically turned 180 degress, learned about ts issues and became a supporter of me!!

my mom died almost right after but she knew my as Kaitlyn and accepted me and loved me....and that makes me thankful that i didn't wait...



for many of us "transition at all costs" is something that enters into the equation...and you know i actually do get for cd's that there can be a "dress at all costs" feelings for some as well....

however life continues to happen...the big world doesn't give a crap about anything and the costs do pile up...

but in my opinion you transition so you can feel your life happen is a good way to think of it...
and unfortunately lots of things suck for ts people in the day to day world...

and post transition, the whole "at all costs" thing seems far far away... you actually wonder in your mind what the big deal was(at least i did) intellectually I remember but emotionally i do not....

i think generally speaking it can be really hard to swallow the outcomes many face AFTER the gender dysphoria goes away.... we have to accept that sometimes getting rid of gender dysphoria is ALL you get, and its a neccessary evil to transition not some wonderful goal to aspire to.... and once its over, you are vulnerable and inexperienced at "life", thats a tough place to be..

[stefan37]

After reading some posts this morning, I think a bigger issue for CD's that are in the closet without their wives knowledge is the advice they need to tell their wife.

I believe that disclosure should be made before the relationship gets serious, but the reality is many hide until many years into the marriage. Disclosing at that point can be just as devastating as transitioning. Many wives will understand. Others may take time. And as we have seen many just want nothing to do with it and break up the marriage. GD in any form is a minefield and the effects of it are unpredictable.