Misinformation

[ReluctantDebutant]

2. Pretending there's some sort of magical way to predict whether or not someone will transition

I refuse to believe that there isn't. I am sure its not magical I am sure there is some reasonable rational way. Medical professionals must know. I sincerely doubt they just start handing out drugs and hormones to just anybody claiming to be trans. How do they determine who is eligible and who isn't? What are the criteria?

Could your recent post be a start? If someone didn't share those feelings?

I rather like Gendermutt's therapist's quote: "I also go back to early in my own journey I started some 2 and a half years ago when going to a very good gender therapist who has no agenda. What he said was that part of being TS, a big part of what defines a TS is not how much you like or want to be feminine, but how much you dislike being male or masculine. If you are ok with being a guy, regardless of how much you like or want to be feminine, then it is not a correct path to take to transition."
I heard something similar many years before it kind of stuck with me.

Granted there may not be just one predictor I am sure there are a few that can eliminate a person form the running or at the very least reduce or increase chances. While as you pointed out that GDs and CDs have very many similar behaviors there are probably very subtle differences that can be indicators.

Also if there is no way to predict wouldn't this negate what I have heard from many Trans, "you just don't wake up one morning a decide to be a woman" Would that not show that some knowledge of really being a woman beforehand? And that it is a long period of denial reaching critical mass? That prior knowledge being denied would be an indicator.

This would be a very productive line of enquiry. I can't be the first

[Eryn]

...There is a gulf between CDers who plateau at simply dressing and transsexuals - for the old-fashioned physicists among us, I see this (very simplistically) as similar to energy levels in quantum physics... it appears to be a spectrum, but in fact there are distinct states - levels - that we reach and feel comfortable with....

Quantum effects occur at the atomic level and quantum effects blur out quickly as scale increases. They do not occur at macroscopic levels

The transgender spectrum is pretty obviously a continuum. There are some pretty definite markers or milestones that might be interpreted as levels. Unlike quanta, the exact placement of the milestones varies with the person. Some people see the spectrum like the emission spectrum of hydrogen:

hsc_as16.gif

Four simple lines, called the Balmer lines, each the product of a transition between energy levels:

balmer2.gif.

These are sufficient for many people and the simplicity is very attractive. However, the simplicity is deceptive. Physicists looked closer and found, not four, but fifteen transitions:

image001.gif

Not to be outdone, others identified 30:

201479-164336213-4438-hydrogen.gif

These are the quantum transitions for the simplest hydrogen atom! Imagine how much more complex the levels of a psychological issue like transgenderism can be! There are so many and they overlap so much that they get ultimately get blurred together into a full spectrum.

We each have our own interpretation of where our significant steps lay and where we are on the spectrum. Many of us don't know definitely where we are and a lot of us didn't even know that we were on the spectrum until some random event led us to examine ourselves more closely.

Transgenderism isn't quantum physics, it's much more complicated!


I observe that the OP hasn't logged in in several days. I suppose we've been baited, but the resulting discussion has been interesting.

[ReineD]

I rather like Gendermutt's therapist's quote: "I also go back to early in my own journey I started some 2 and a half years ago when going to a very good gender therapist who has no agenda. What he said was that part of being TS, a big part of what defines a TS is not how much you like or want to be feminine, but how much you dislike being male or masculine. If you are ok with being a guy, regardless of how much you like or want to be feminine, then it is not a correct path to take to transition."

Makes sense. I guess this is how so many people know they are not interested in transition.

(I know I'm supposed to be working, but I'm taking a break. )

The transgender spectrum is pretty obviously a continuum. There are some pretty definite markers or milestones that might be interpreted as levels.

So when you google "crossdressers" and you are presented with millions of sites that feature porn, exaggerated breast forms (and other apparatus that look like female body parts and that emulate female bodily functions), fetish-type clothing (lolita dresses, nurses' and other costumes, all manner of lingerie, mile-high heels), meet-up sites, dating sites, sex chat rooms or private discussion boards, images on hosting sites featuring all manner of CDers in various forms of undress on beds, straddling stuff, legs up in the air, etc ...... do you really think their motive for dressing is the same as the members in our TS section? The bulk of crossdressers out there would not join this forum because it doesn't cater to their reasons for dressing, which is sexual and for fun. I'm sorry, but I see no continuum there.

In this forum, we only really have several hundred people (give or take) who post on a regular basis, and even fewer who go out dressed in regular clothing and who engage in regular day-to-day activities. If more people log in than that, are they here to only look at the Gallery? Do they log in once or less per month to read a few posts? This is not gender dysphoria. Of the people who do post here regularly, there was a sizable amount who said they are not and will not be interested in transition. This seems to conform to forum statistics of people who were distressed enough to post in the TS section, vs. those who weren't.

I've been here for a good many years. In fact, I honestly think you all should make me an honorary TG. Anyway, I know why some past frequent participants do not come any more. They aged, and it is simply not satisfactory to go out looking like an older woman. My own SO said the same thing to me recently and I do see a marked decrease in her feminine expression. This is not gender dysphoria. We have tens of thousands of people who have passed through these doors and who are no longer here. We have quite a few people here who do not even attempt to go out looking like women, they just like wearing the clothes. And countless others who are strictly underdressers. This is not gender dysphoria.

I just wanted to put this into perspective.

For you and other TSs, please do not misunderstand me. I am not invalidating your experiences. I am saying there are two general categories of people who dress: fetish (for the bulk of crossdressers who are not members here) and gender identity, with some overlap of people who do not dress for fetish but who also do not have GD, plus some people who have a non-binary gender identity.

Eryn, I'm impressed with your lesson in Physics. Light is a spectrum too. But what else is in our physical world that is not a spectrum?

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Back to the suicides mentioned earlier. Here are statistics from the Williams Institute.

There are slightly more FtM suicides than MtF. The highest rates of suicide are among young TGs (18-24), multi-racial, American Indian or native American TGs, those who have lower levels of educational attainment and lower annual household income, and the TGs who have come out to others, or who appear TG to others even though they have not told anyone. They are more visible and therefore targeted.

The lowest rates are among CDing men, most of whom are married.

So I guess if a CD member here is married and doesn't go out, to encourage him to do otherwise would actually increase the risk of suicide. Food for thought.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.ed...port-Final.pdf

[AnnieMac]

Geesh! Eryn, overthink this whole thing much? Crossdressing isn't your problem, dude, you need a girlfriend!
Haha, I'm just teasing you honey - much girly love your way, hun! - Annie

[Suzie Petersen]

A friend wrote to me this morning, asking what I thought of this debate and I was about to reply to her. Then I thought, since I do have an opinion, it would be dishonest not to share it here within the debate itself, so here goes for my $0.02.

Going back to the OP's basic point (at least my interpretation of it) "Any claims about the likelihood of CD'ers eventually transitioning, can be damaging to the effort of a CD'er who is trying to convince his wife that he has no such intentions!".

I believe that is true.

A concerned wife who is reading this forum will likely get more concerned the more often she reads about someone who was "just" a CD now suddenly transitioning and she will get concerned by reading "predictions" of how that will likely happen to some/many/all others.
It doesn't matter that it might be factually true that some will and it doesn't matter what the statistical probability is. It is not helping to point it out for the one who is trying to calm down a concerned wife. That was the point of the OP and I agree.

Without making any other comparisons, so dont jump on me for this one, just try and see the point I am making .... when you end up in the emergency room with chest pain, and your very concerned wife is there with you, it doesnt help anybody that some other patient declares loudly that some of us in the room will die today because statistics say that X% dont survive! Thats not what you need to hear while you are trying to calm down your wife, weather or not it is true! You know you just ate that potato a little too fast without chewing, but she thinks you are about to croak from a heart attack!

I used to be very active in a live chat room years ago. This was back when I was still dressing and sometimes going out with friends. I really wanted my wife to get to know some of these people, for her to see that they were good normal people with all kinds of interesting professions and backgrounds and that we just happened to share this fun thing of dressing and presenting like girls sometimes.
A few times she did visit the chat room with me and things were fine, until someone started expressing thoughts which were not at all in line with what I was about. Being a live chatroom, it could not be instantly moderated and now and then someone would say something of a sexual nature for instance. I had absolutely no interest in that and would ignore it, but my wife saw it and instantly assumed that this was part of what was going on! It was not normal at all, but she picked it up immediately and missed all the good conversations because of it. After that, the game was lost for me and I could no longer get her to visit with my friends. She had made up her mind about the chat room and frankly, seeing the negative effect it had, I didnt really want her there either because I knew it was bound to happen again.

I dont think any of the involved people in the debate here are consciously trying to recruit anyone besides I dont for a moment believe you can be recruited to become TS, but, if my wife read this, she would absolutely get that impression sometimes! And that is a problem for some of us, and that is why I would never suggest to my wife to read anything here. The damage it could do in our relationship is unmeasurable.

The point of the OP's post was to ask to maybe tone it down a little. Those of us who have been aware of our gender issues for a lifetime have learned how to separate things and we get involved in talks that relate to where we are in life and stay out of topics that do not. But, those who are just now trying to find themselves, or wifes who just now try to figure out what it all means, can easily get the wrong idea. They dont know what to believe and what not to.

- Suzie

[Dianne S]

Suzie,

I understand what you're saying. But I don't think people posting on this forum should refrain from speaking what they see as the truth in order to protect the concerned partner of a CDer.

Like it or not, if you come out to your partner as a CDer, he or she will be concerned, is very likely to go poking around in the Internet for more information, and is extremely likely to encounter material that's far more disturbing than anything on this forum.

If you are worried about the effects of postings in this forum, then don't visit it and don't tell your SO about it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

yep...

i will say it again.. you can't stop somebody from sharing real life experience.... if as Reine and others say and its over the top then i guess there is a debate as to what that means but it should be an in the moment thing and should relate to very specific comments that can be shared and talked about..

what susie you are basically saying is you want the forum run for YOUR interests and you are projecting your shared best interests (along with the OP and others) in an attempt to silence voices that have their own best interests in minds..
it aint gonna happen and it shouldn't happen..

frankly the much more common issue for cd's wives is that so many of you want to dress more and more...that is much more common an issue than "OMG I"M TS!!" type of revelations...

should we ask those folks to not post their struggles?? maybe a wife reads that and worries her husband will want to go outside....

If you want a wife friendly forum for straight married cd's that like to fully dress and swear on a stack of bibles they are cd's and that they will never ask their wives to accommodate any more dressing or feminine expression, then start that forum...and i guarantee you'd end up in the same place when the first one can't keep their promise...

people say tone it down a little... this is the toned down version..

[Suzie Petersen]

Dianne,

I agree with you, and that is part of the problem I personally have actually. If you read my post carefully, I dont try to tell anyone what to say or what not to say, I am just explaining the effect it can have on an SO who reads these pages. I dont know that there is any better way of doing this, but for me, and apparently for some others, it made things difficult.

To me, the point really is that everybody must be allowed to tell their story and anyone who wants to read it, should.
The problem, as I see it, is when we get into the prediction of what others will or will not do in the future. If we start talking about how large a percentage of the people who right now think they are CD will eventually transition, we get into speculation and can spend forever arguing over the numbers or the methods by which they were generated. But the thing is, it doesnt really matter, does it? I want to hear your story, and that of everybody else too, it is less important to me what the chance/risk is that someones assessment of what they are, might later turn out be wrong. There is nothing any of us can do about that anyway.
The reason it matters, is that it can have a very strong effect of an SO who is just now trying to figure it all out.

You are right, if it is a problem, dont come here. However, between us here, we probably collectively represent all the experience and knowledge in the world when it comes to gender. This _is_ the place to come to learn.

I dont like the "Us" and "Them" we sometimes end up with. To me, we are all the same and we are all different! Nobody is better than anyone else and nobody is all correct and everybody else all wrong. There is no scientific way of determining who are CD and who are TS or any of whatever number of other categories or levels anyone wants to come up with.

Frankly, on my path, I have identified better with TS woman than with most of the CD'ers I have met. I am not TS and I have thought about this quite a bit. I think for me it was because most TS women are more "normal" and at ease with themselves at the end of the journey. Here I go risking being pommeled again
So what do I mean by that? Well, TS women end up being just regular women with normal interests, normal lives etc. I know not everybody are so lucky, but that at least is the intention.
CD'ers however, cover the whole spectrum from fun loving normal people to completely messed up! Some are dressing up for reasons I dont want to have anything to do with, some disgust me to be honest.

When I tried to explain this to my wife, it probably didnt make any sense.

So my question would be this, for someone who is just now trying to figure this out, just now wanting to explain it to an SO, where should one go to give them other peoples input, without risking the SO only seeing transition as the outcome?
Every time I greet a new member who just told the wife/so, I tell them to be very careful because the wife most likely will seek information on the Internet and almost definitely will find all the nasty things which seem to be connected with this.

- Suzie

Edit: Since I cant issue a new post already and Kaitlyn and I were writing at the same time:

what susie you are basically saying is you want the forum run for YOUR interests and you are projecting your shared best interests (along with the OP and others) in an attempt to silence voices that have their own best interests in minds..
it aint gonna happen and it shouldn't happen..

So no, that was exactly not what I was saying. Please read my post again and also my new post.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you say suzie the reason it matters is that it can have a very strong effect of an SO who is just now trying to figure it all out.

only if you look at it from a perspective of keeping information away from people that are trying to figure it out can you have what you desire..

i agree...trying to say 20% or 2% of cd' will do this or that is wrong... nobody really knows

but unfortunately for cd's what that means is this true statement "some cd's are really not cd's, they are ts working it all out" stands on it own...
there is nothing you or anybody can say or do to change this,

and NOT saying it is misinformation

one more thing...you say you identify better with TS women.... you brought that up.... ... can you imagine a wife coming here for the first time...even the cd's are saying they identify with ts women...don't you see the irony in that?? what does it even mean to identify with ts women?? the fact that many cd's flirt with identifying as ts is a big deal and frankly much more prevalent than a couple of ts women that used to identify as cd's coming here and talking about it... many many many more cd's talk about being trans than actually are... what about issue? there are many many more threads that go "if only....then i would transition" than the messages we are debating here..

[Suzie Petersen]

Kaitlyn,

I agree...trying to say 20% or 2% of cd' will do this or that is wrong... nobody really knows

Thats actually the point of what I am saying. Just that.
Predictions of what others will do or the "Whats the difference" joke, can have an unintended bad effect on some.

one more thing...you say you identify better with TS women.... you brought that up....

Let me change that right now. I would go back and change my original post, but that makes it had for others to read the whole thread.
No, I dont "identify" with TS women, bad choice of word there. I have often been in groups where I found that I was more "comfortable" around TS women.
As an example, I would rather sit on the counter in the kitchen in jeans and a T-shirt, talking about what was on the news this evening with TS women, than in the living room discussing who has what color panties on! I couldnt care less, and neither could the TS women.

- Suzie

[ReineD]

It doesn't matter that it might be factually true that some will and it doesn't matter what the statistical probability is. It is not helping to point it out for the one who is trying to calm down a concerned wife.

Suzie, I agree that a common reaction among GGs (AND other CDers who might be looking for solutions), when they read about someone who used to think of themselves as CD and who now realize they are TS, is to internalize it and wonder if it will happen in their own lives. People tend to pay more attention to the more vocal exceptions than the often silent norms. When people experience no change in their lives, they don't tend to talk about it so it makes sense we would hear more from the CD-identified-to-TS-identified people than others.

But, this doesn't mean that we must hide the fact that it happens. I think that people who do eventually realize they are TS should come out and celebrate it. But, for them or others to insinuate this is a potential for everyone is wrong, IMO. I think the responsible thing is to continually place this in perspective with all the evidence we have that shows it happens to only a small percentage of people. I don't blame the CD-identified-to-TS-identified people for not pointing this out, they are understandably focused on their own journeys, but others can point it out and it shouldn't be taken that they are "against" transition or TSs when they do.

[Suzie Petersen]

Reine,

Reine, your observations are as usual very very good and well balanced. I sometimes wonder if you in fact is a professional gender counselor planted here among us to help keep things in perspective

ReineD: But, this doesn't mean that we must hide the fact that it happens. I think that people who do eventually realize they are TS should come out and celebrate it.

Oh I absolutely agree and I am certainly not advertising that people should not tell their stories. I fell we should all celebrate with them or with anyone who find their path in life, whatever it might be.

ReineD: But, for them or others to insinuate this is a potential for everyone is wrong, IMO.

And that is what I feel this thread is actually about. I cannot go back and find quotes from this or that person as proof, but I have heard people, usually TS women, make statements to the point of "All CD's want to transition, you just dont have the guts!". I dont believe that to be true and I feel it is distorting the picture when someone says things like that. And to the point of this thread, it will make some wifes go "See!!".
What makes it difficult of course, is that for some, that is exactly what they feel happened to them! They thought and believed they were "just" CD and later realized they in fact are TS.

How do you convincingly explain to an SO what this is about and what you intend to do, when you dont yet know yourself? To your point, people who experienced change are often more vocal about it than people who do/did not. How can I say that I will not transition? All I can say for sure, is that I have not, yet! I can think and feel that I never will, but I can not argue against someone who claims that I might!

So the point in this thread that I am talking about, and which I believe was the core of the OP post, is that when someone start on the conclusions and probabilities, while talking about a group of people which cannot easily be accurately surveyed, we get into risky territory. However, someone visiting only a few times and who is worried about what the future holds for a CD'ing spouse, could easily read these statements as fact.

- Suzie

[ReluctantDebutant]

It just occurred to me that in some way I add to this problem. If the problem is that too many CDers and their SOs read to many transition stories that are on the one end can be caused by there being a lack of stories on the other end.

If you think about it there are not very many personal CD stories to tell. The personal stories usually involve a collection of firsts; first time dressed, first time out , first makeover, etc... After those stories are done the conversation tend to lead to the common interests of the CDing community and cease being really personal; Underwear threads, Who do you want to look like threads, How to tips etc... A person's story does get interesting again when a new set of firsts happen; Going to see a therapist, Getting a script for hormones, going in for surgery etc... Now obviously no one's stories end but if there is nothing worthy of writing home about they wouldn't post it to the forum either. To the outside observer it could appear that a CD's tale is just an incomplete TS tale when it actuality it is going to go no further.

My story could be helpful to CDers and their SOs for balancing out all those transition stories. I have greatly throttled back my cross-dressing. While I am hesitant to say the "quit" word I will say I am no longer living a cross-dressing centered life anymore. A story like mine would show an alternative to the progression one and would perhaps alleviate those same fear I had those few years ago. But let's face it is really hard to come on a cross-dressers forum and talk about not dressing. Its not like I would post "Wore pants and a t-shirt today and felt great." threads. I wouldn't seem appropriate here. How many people would see that and say "what does that have to do with anything"? How many would think its flaunting in front of those who feel they can't stop (I once felt like I couldn't stop)? How many would feel that that message is toxic to those who need to transition, I am giving false hope that this can end?

I have stuck around hoping to be a beacon to those like me that need to follow a similar path. But without anything CD related going on in my life, I really have nothing to write about here. And that may be part of the problem CDers who have quit, lessen, or found balance in CDing might not have much to say or have left the forum. I am in a constant state of feeling I don't need to log on here anymore. I do this place is still helpful even to me. So maybe that's it man becomes woman is still a man bites dog story while man stops cross-dressing is just dog bites man.

[ReineD]

How do you convincingly explain to an SO what this is about and what you intend to do, when you dont yet know yourself? To your point, people who experienced change are often more vocal about it than people who do/did not. How can I say that I will not transition? All I can say for sure, is that I have not, yet! I can think and feel that I never will, but I can not argue against someone who claims that I might!

OK, I see two questions here:

1. How can I explain to my wife that I do not want to transition.
2. How can I possibly know what is in the future for me.

My opinion:

1. A lot, if not most wives cannot tell the difference between a CDer who wants to look convincingly like a woman in order to go out, and someone who will want to eventually live as a woman full time. And as long as a wife sees her husband ramping it up (going from CDer-type clothes to a good (and expansive) working wardrobe, shaving more parts of the body on a regular basis, tweezing eyebrows, piercing ears, growing out fingernails and hair (if possible), getting laser beard removal possibly, going out to more and more places, she (likely) WILL NOT know that the aim is to be completely gender-flexible. But, once a CDer reaches the desired level of appearance, and gets into a routine of going out regularly (whether this is once or three times per week), and he stays at that level for years and is happy, then she will see that the end-point has been reached.

This is what happened to me. Things did stabilize after a while and there were no more changes, plus things even began to take a back seat as my SO aged. There has been very little feminine expression in the last few years compared to before, and this is not because my SO is repressing himself.

2. OK, I realize that some people do not know who they are and this was especially true when there were no internet resources, when the expression of a feminine self (for MtFs) was akin to potentially being lynched out in public (years ago), when the attitude was that CDers and TSs are freaks of nature (sorry, but people did use to think this). It makes sense that people would have repressed this.

But now? We have online resources, discussion forums, advocacy groups, there are tons of videos on youtube that show birth-males how to look like women, if a person does not know whether or not they feel distressed with their male bodies, then I don't know what to say. Transsexualism is not something that "pops up" out of the blue well into an adult's life.

So if "how far it goes" means looking convincingly like a woman enough to go out and interact with others, and not feeling afraid to do so, then you can pretty well say that this is standard procedure for a lot of CDers. And if you have reached this point and you are happy, then why do you think that things would change. Do you want permanent breasts now? Do you want to get rid of your male life and male sexual functioning now? Do you want to come out to your family, friends, and coworkers now and have them think of you as a woman?

If not, then what makes you think this will change. But, if you DO want all these things now, then maybe you are TS.

I have greatly throttled back my cross-dressing

You aren't the only one. But, this forum is more focused on moving the CDing forward (it is after all a support forum for people who are learning to do this), and so it is not surprising that people who have lost the degree of interest they once had will not post threads that run counter to this. It is simply easier to put the forum behind them and move on once their interest has abated. My own SO has not posted here in years and she did not transition.

[becky77]

It would help if instead of all the misinterpretation and label doomsayers we had a bit more education on what it is to be TS or CD or other.
The problem as I have stated before is that there is no recognised definition for those in the middle 'the other'. These people are almost left having to choose which side they are on when in fact it would be better to expand on what it is to be a middle pather.

We all know what drives a standard CDer, be it sexual or other it is all about the clothes and there is no issue with internal identity.
A TS is nothing like a CDer, the clothes may have played a part at some stage but typically it is all about identity, a constant life struggle questioning your gender.
CD -man who has something that makes them want to crossdress.
TS - born male but is in fact female of mind, in the early stages a TS may well be mistaken for a CD but a CD will never become a TS.

Then we have those somewhere in between and not a lot is spoken of this area, it's vague at best and they are either told they are just a CDer or that they could be TS. Society can't grasp a middle gender and it doesn't help if we can't understand it either.

What is it that makes someone that identifies as male, feels secure in their masculinity but wants to not only wear women's clothing but go out and be seen in public that way. This is far beyond anything sexual or a relaxing past time. Said person is clearly not TS as they are not unhappy with their masculinity, so what is happening here?
It is easy to mistakenly think that person is on the road to transition but why would they even consider transition, if there is no internal gender struggle going on? So what are they aiming for??

Will a CD become a TS? no. Will they transition? that's a better question.
I think to better learn we need frank stories of those that feel they fit in the middle, why they do what they do, why despite no intention of transition or no problem with being male, they seek hormones, breasts etc.

As a TS I personally do not understand why a man (happy being a man), wants to take it to that next step and go out dressed as a woman and act like a woman. You can't blame someone for questioning if he could be TS without knowing.

And if I don't understand it how can a GG?

[Katey888]

Being in a bit of a CD hiatus at the moment, for some reason the more I read the debates in this thread the more it's niggling me... but for a couple of late contributions are worth stressing for the points they have made:

Going back to the OP's basic point (at least my interpretation of it) "Any claims about the likelihood of CD'ers eventually transitioning, can be damaging to the effort of a CD'er who is trying to convince his wife that he has no such intentions!".

I believe that is true.

Suzie - it's right to address the OPs point here and I also would agree with this in general terms - but Eryn's point about the validity of the assertion remains relatively overlooked although it may have been happily pounced upon as a convenient vehicle. Look back over a few pages of the MtF forum and the vast majority of posts are about getting out; struggling with self- and SO-acceptance; and a lot about personal experiences and progress of all types, with a few notables that I would consider 'TS' for this part of the forum, but heavily in the minority and certainly only relating a personal success story and not banging a TS drum to rally recruits... I fear Eryn may be partially correct about everyone being a little stirred up by this, but it also seems to have developed some misinformation of it's own!

It just occurred to me that in some way I add to this problem. If the problem is that too many CDers and their SOs read to many transition stories that are on the one end can be caused by there being a lack of stories on the other end.

Me too RD. 97 days non-dressing here... I expect it will change soon but I also feel like I've reached a comfort zone, not that I was hugely uncomfortable or pink-fogged before. This forum HAS helped me with self-acceptance and part of that has come because I have drawn on the experiences of others to go that little bit further (in presentation only - NOT in my internal identity) and that fulfilment has led me to also step back from the frequency I was dressing in past years. I still know this isn't going away; and I still know that I am nowhere near the TS end of any spectrum, but if you look at the forum over time you will also see the examples Kaitlyn speaks of: those who are genuinely unaware but for whom the advice and examples of our TS sisters here can sometimes be nothing short of life-saving. But 99% of that discussion is in the TS forum - not here. I think the original assertion (and I said this a while back) is misleading because we happen to have had a few notable discussions around transitioning recently - and it skews the apparent subject matter, but nonetheless should remain.

Eryn: Thanks for getting everyone's head spinning - I did say, my example was simplistic - but to me it reiterates the importance of understanding the nature of what motivates us as individuals; where we sit on the whole spectrum/ mosaic/ staircase/ escalator thing; and why it is so important that medical science makes more effort to understand why we're driven to do what we do. Because this following comment for me is just too simplistic:

I am saying there are two general categories of people who dress: fetish (for the bulk of crossdressers who are not members here) and gender identity, with some overlap of people who do not dress for fetish but who also do not have GD, plus some people who have a non-binary gender identity.

Reine - I believe you do have a valid perspective and a very knowledgeable one as an SO and GG, but you cannot know or begin to understand the raw confusion and conflict that this condition brings to someone like me, who has no overtly feminine traits, who has experienced both sexual and non-sexual aspects of this, who has struggled to rationalise a relentless urge to do something that just makes so little sense and offers so much risk (in my own circumstances) and yet finds more understanding and kindred feelings with TS folk because they too understand the conflict, the contradiction, the pressures and the stress of not doing this, where a cisgendered person just cannot comprehend. (I think this might have been what Suzie alluded to also.)

You simply cannot know this kind of internal conflict and confusion as you are blessed with being gender straight... I can only imagine how much more this must be for someone who is TS or just approaching it, and that is why we must remain open to the discussion and suggestion and possibility that folk who come here for support should have every possibility open for discussion.

OK - rant off now... Was going to say more but probably should just go and..

Katey x

[Suzie Petersen]

Oh bugger. I just wrote a long response and lost it Because I timed out, I had to log in again and that for some reason didnt go so well.
Oh well.

[Dianne S]

Transsexualism is not something that "pops up" out of the blue well into an adult's life.

It isn't usually, but it can happen.

Sure, after it happens we can look back and say "Yeah, ok there were obvious signs."

But I say again: It can happen that someone who honestly, truly believes he is "just" a crossdresser finds out later in life that she is in fact TS. The fact that there's the Internet today doesn't mean that everyone comes to the realization at an early age.

[ReluctantDebutant]

As a TS I personally do not understand why a man (happy being a man), wants to take it to that next step and go out dressed as a woman and act like a woman.

Well when dressing at home gets mundane something needs to make it exciting again. In steps the human nature of risk taking or gambling. Going out an passing as a woman you win the game of cross-dressing or at least this match. Everytime you are ignored or better yet a male's head turn you get confirmation of you accomplishment. its the CD equivalent of catching a 25lbs trout in fishing.

[Suzie Petersen]

I lost my train of thought on the "evaporated" response so, here is another fresh one.

ReluctantDebutant: It just occurred to me that in some way I add to this problem. If the problem is that too many CDers and their SOs read to many transition stories that are on the one end can be caused by there being a lack of stories on the other end.

I think you are right in that.

ReineD: A lot, if not most wives cannot tell the difference between a CDer who wants to look convincingly like a woman in order to go out, and someone who will want to eventually live as a woman full time.

And you certainly cant blame anyone for being worried about that.

But once again, back to the essense of this. I dont think it is relevant to attempt to post statistics or predictions about how many will or will not transition. It is guesswork and doesnt really help anyone anyway. For instance, someone who is in doubt if he/she is TS .. does it help him/her to "know" that X% eventually transition? No, what matters is what is right for them, not for everybody else. But to an SO who drops in here, looking for help, some of those predictions might be taken for fact and can make them much less willing to try and find a balance with their CD'ing SO.
That is basically what happened to me and my wife. She developed the impression that most CD'ers transition and she stopped trying to find a compromise. It ended up black and white with no shades.

Likewise, it is an unpleasant and unfortunate fact that some transitioned TS women/men end up finding that the grass was not greener on the other side and that transition did not fix all things in their life. Some of them end up tragically taking their own lives.
While that fact is an important part of the whole story about gender issues, does it help anyone who might be thinking about transition to see a debate of what the probability is or what the percentage is of people who end up dead? I dont think so, I think it just increases the risk that those who need to transition might have less of a chance to get the support they need from their spouse because of a fear of the worst.

Like RD and and a little like Katey, although I think Katey is just on break right now I am also not living the CD'er life now. I stopped dressing several years ago to save my marriage. My wife and my children are more important to me than the dressing and I stopped.
I joined this forum, not to seek advise or get help with any of that, but to potentially help others by sharing my views and my story. I am attempting to see things from all sides, not just mine. I dont have a personal agenda, but an interest in ultimately getting everybody to play nice together, CD'ers, TS's, SO's and the rest of the world.

We need to be more understanding of each other and attempt to see things from other peoples point of view. When someone says that it is really not helpful to them when others paints a dark picture, factual or not, the response should not be "If you dont like it, you can just shove off and not log in! The response should be "How can be change our behavior such that these concerns are also considered."

- Suzie

[Dianne S]

For instance, someone who is in doubt if he/she is TS .. does it help him/her to "know" that X% eventually transition?

It depends what X is, doesn't it? And really we have no hard data, so it's just guesswork.

I agree with you that no-one should ever suggest to someone else "I think you are transsexual" or "I don't think you are transsexual." But I think it's quite legitimate to say that some TSes didn't completely realize or accept the fact that they were TS until relatively late in life, believing themselves to be CDers. I'm never of the view that less information is better than more information.

She developed the impression that most CD'ers transition and she stopped trying to find a compromise.

But maybe if she knew that even though some CDers transition, the overwhelming majority never do and never even want to, it would have helped? I don't know. Humans are horrible at gauging risk and probability so sometimes we obsess over unlikely but extreme things while ignoring far more common but prosaic things.

[flatlander_48]

It would help if instead of all the misinterpretation and label doomsayers we had a bit more education on what it is to be TS or CD or other.
The problem as I have stated before is that there is no recognised definition for those in the middle 'the other'. These people are almost left having to choose which side they are on when in fact it would be better to expand on what it is to be a middle pather.

I doubt if there will ever be the definition that you mention. The problem is a matter of degree. For example, the visible spectrum goes from Infrared to Ultraviolet. We know red, green, pink, turquoise, teal, taupe, etc, etc but that is NOT every possible shade between the 2 ends. The moment you define one, someone will say "What about a half step to the left?". It would be an endless game and for what purpose?

DeeAnn

[Suzie Petersen]

It depends what X is, doesn't it? And really we have no hard data, so it's just guesswork.

No actually, if X is not unquestionably scientifically provable 100%, then no, I dont think it matters what X is. And I agree, we do not know, and that is part of my point, we dont, but to the person who is new to a forum like this, the words of someone who speaks with authority can easily be taken as hard facts.

But maybe if she knew that even though some CDers transition, the overwhelming majority never do and never even want to, it would have helped?

Oh I think that possibly could help, but what we are talking about here, is the few who talk about "Many" and "Most" and "Always" and "Eventually" etc. Thats where it becomes a potential problem and I dont think any of those words accurately describe the facts.
Again, this is not about me, but I will use my path as an example. My wife was looking for _proof_ that she was right! "Dressing is the gate-drug to transitioning!". If you like to dress as a woman now, you will eventually have the bits snipped off, live as a woman and start having sex with men! So ergo, I (my wife) am doomed in this relationship because you are going to leave me for a man sooner or later!
NO! No intention of that and absolutely no interest in any of that. I wish I could explain what it is I feel inside, but I cant. However, I do know that that, is not it!

So when an SO comes here looking for answers, and someone talks about numbers, and probability, it is not helping!

- Suzie

[ReineD]

but you cannot know or begin to understand the raw confusion and conflict that this condition brings to someone like me, who has no overtly feminine traits, who has experienced both sexual and non-sexual aspects of this, who has struggled to rationalise a relentless urge to do something that just makes so little sense and offers so much risk (in my own circumstances) and yet finds more understanding and kindred feelings with TS folk because they too understand the conflict, the contradiction, the pressures and the stress of not doing this, where a cisgendered person just cannot comprehend. (I think this might have been what Suzie alluded to also.)

You simply cannot know this kind of internal conflict and confusion as you are blessed with being gender straight... I can only imagine how much more this must be for someone who is TS or just approaching it, and that is why we must remain open to the discussion and suggestion and possibility that folk who come here for support should have every possibility open for discussion.

You're right, I don't experience this.

So let me ask you questions about your quote above:

who has experienced both sexual and non-sexual aspects of this, who has struggled to rationalise a relentless urge to do something that just makes so little sense and offers so much risk (in my own circumstances)

You have a relentless urge to dress, and it is no longer or rarely sexual. I'd say this describes a lot if not most of the CD members who go out in public regularly, including my SO (except my SO's urges have abated in recent years, compared to the years before). Are you saying that because it is no longer sexual, you are beginning to wonder, or you wonder sometimes, if the possibility of being TS might be in the cards for you in the future? (I'm doing my best to try to understand).

So your relentless urge to dress ... is this all the time or are there times when you go about your male life not thinking about it (when you do things with your wife, or see relatives, or do things with friends, or work, etc). Does having an urge to dress mean that you want to change your body and go full time.

and yet finds more understanding and kindred feelings with TS folk because they too understand the conflict, the contradiction, the pressures and the stress of not doing this,

Also, they're not into the "beginner CD" mindset of things like panty & pantyhose threads. You're past that too. Do you see yourself as having the same dysphoria about your body that TSs have and is this the source of your conflict. Or, is it rather a question of wondering why you have such strong urges to dress.


Edit - General note to everyone:

I think this is turning out to be one of the best, most productive conversations we've ever had in the forum between CDers and TSs. There's a lot of honesty in this thread, and no one is getting angry or feeling insulted (as far as I can tell). Really good stuff.

[Dianne S]

No actually, if X is not unquestionably scientifically provable 100%, then no, I dont think it matters what X is.

Seriously? What in life is 100% provable? Almost nothing. The whole human experience is one of uncertainty and guesswork. If you can't accept that, you're doomed.

And also, to me in certain situations, X makes a huge difference. I would not get on a plane that had a 1% chance of crashing, but I'd certainly get on one that had a 0.00001% chance (that's 1 in ten million.)

but what we are talking about here, is the few who talk about "Many" and "Most" and "Always" and "Eventually" etc.

Sorry, I don't actually recall anyone saying "Always", "Most" or "Many." Everything I've read from TSes on this site is that a "few" CDers will eventually transition, but that most will not.

My wife was looking for _proof_ that she was right!

OK, this may come across as callous or blunt, but I truly mean no harm: How resilient is the relationship to begin with if one person makes decisions based on what a few strangers post on forums rather than based on the heartfelt statements of her SO? I mean really, do SO's actually take stuff on this forum that much to heart?