TSs and children !

[Teresa]

At the moment I consider myself to be a CDer with issues that still need to be explored, hopefully the next round of counselling won't take too long !
Despite whatever feelings I have inside one thing that I have no regrets over is being in a relationship that produced children ,( now also grandchildren!) Whatever takes place in the future, if I end with a piece of paper suggesting I'm not man anymore and a question mark if I'm still a father I will always be a parent and be proud of it, that's something no one can take away !

Thinking along these lines a question occurred to me that possibly applies to TSs who have fully transitioned , I have read many articles and looked through the threads in this section . The overwhelming need is to align body and mind, to become a female they always thought they should be, in the process sexual function may take a back seat in achieving this, obviously not in all cases and many say they have a minimal interest in it .
My question is because I've seen very little evidence of TSs saying that their goal in life if it were possible would be to become pregnant and have children, if they had been born a woman that would be their biggest consideration !
Yes I do realise that not all GGs want children or enjoy having them ! So is this a piece of the puzzle that will always be missing or is it a feeling that despite the overwhelming need to transition the need to bear children never comes into the equation it's only in the head of a naturally born woman ?

[ClaraKay]

Interesting question, Teresa. I think the desire, drive, or instinct to bear children shows up rather early in a woman's life and may also be influenced considerably by environmental factors (upbringing). I'm guessing that examining the attitudes of young transsexual women (in their teens and 20's) about their inability to become pregnant and bear a child would reveal much of the same lament that genetic woman feel when they discover that they can't have children.

[Thea Pauline]

I too would agree that much of this will be influenced by the age of the individual, in addition to their natural inclination towards having children and their individual circumstances.

I first married in my mid twenties, after having declared that I would never have children as a result of a pregnancy which occurred because I had been deceived regarding birth control. Personal responsibility has always been high on my list of traits to encourage, so I got married, had a daughter, divorced 3 years later and became a weekly father. We both ended up with happy memories of that time for the most part, and since coming out to her, my daughter is the most supportive of anyone I've come out to since starting transition.

That being said, transition came in my fifties and the realization that even if current medical procedures allowed for the growth of a womb with all the associated systems, I would be late to the party, influences my decisions in such things. Combine these issues with my initial inclination to not have children, (which I suspect was a subconscious acknowledgement of being TS) and the chances I would want to go through the effort are minimal.

Perhaps if I had figured all this out before puberty and had not internalized so much angst regarding my body and identity, I would feel differently. That however, is all conjecture and I'm quite happy with my child and the grandchildren she has produced, so I have a great foundation with which to move forward as a woman. And that makes me the happiest of anything I've ever done.

So, in summary, I don't think these thoughts are limited to a natal female, but keep in mind the average TS has a lot going on if they've made it to adulthood prior to transition and many probably cannot cope with the additional stress.

Thea

[ReineD]

I was on a TS guidance site the other day, I can't remember if it was Road Maps or another one, in the section for HRT and anti-androgens. They strongly recommended freezing sperm for anyone contemplating transition who might want children in the future. I took it this was addressed to younger TSs, since middle-aged or older people don't tend to start families.

[becky77]

It's never been an option so I buried it deep. For me it was too wrong to father a child/be a father figure.
Being a natal mother is denied me, so I try not to think on it.
Due to my gender issues I was far to messed up and not living female for there to be an adoption consideration, now it's just another one of life's bitterness's I have to deal with.

Now I'm too old and especially with the hormones, it's just another one of the hurts I carry due to this crappy illness that is being TS.

Thanks for reminding me, something else to discuss with the therapist next week given how replying to this just made me feel.

[Leah Lynn]

We not only don't get the oven, we don't get the pelvis to give birth. A Ceasarian would be necessary.

Even if possible, that's one thing I would have to pass on.

Leah

[Teresa]

The point I was making is that after full transition most needs are hopefully satisfied leading to a happier life but not all aspects of womanhood are needed to satisfy the desire to align mind and body ! As I said at the start I've seen very little evidence of the need to bear children even if it were possible !

[gonegirl]

We not only don't get the oven, we don't get the pelvis to give birth. A Ceasarian would be necessary.Leah

Thats not true of everyone. Turns out I have the pelvis at least....

To the OP: When I truly accepted the fact I am female, and was set free to live my own life, I had an overwhelming feeling of loss come over me. (One of many...) but this feeling was the loss of being unable to bear a child. I know that millions of women feel that loss, but it doesn't make it any easier...

[Eringirl]

It has always been a huge sadness for me that I was not able to bear children. Too old now regardless.

Becky: I had that conversation with my therapist last year. I get where you are coming from.

Erin

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I would have hated to not have kids. I am super thankful that i have my kids.

I cant say for sure if its instinct or my gender but i mothered my kids more than fathered them (that is a very broad traditionalist generalization but rather than go into details i'll let it stand)

that being said it never entered my mind to actually bear children.

[becky77]

As I said at the start I've seen very little evidence of the need to bear children even if it were possible !

From my perspective it's because almost no one understands and i'm too bitter to bother explaining it to someone that is dismissive of my feelings.
I had this discussion with my Mum a few months ago, as she knew I was very against having kids pre-transition.
I tried to explain that I couldn't be a father, I was trying my hardest to be a man and being a Father was beyond my ability, also my life was such a lie and I was so damaged, I couldn't even think of bringing a child into that.
I would have loved to have been a mother, I have had dreams about it that have been so vivid and the way they have left me feeling, but it wasn't to be.
Since hormones that feeling has amplified.

She said, imagine how bad it is for those women that can't have children, I said I am one of those women and she just didn't get it.
I may be living as a woman for the rest of my life, but those who knew me before will still only see some mixed up guy.

I admire those who have been successful parents regardless of the gender status.

I'm maternal I can't be paternal, is there anyone who understands that? It's a feeling deep inside I can't explain.
The issue I have with the Trans community and people I have made an effort to meet, is that I still don't feel anyone gets me other than other women.
But other women can still be dismissive, as if I will never understand fully because well, i'm not truly one of them!!

It's all too crazy.

[gonegirl]

I very much get what you're saying, Becky. I've had that discussion with people also, and most don't get it, but I've disregarded anyone's differing opinion with regard to who and what I am, and gone ahead and been myself. I'm a mom to my children. They have two moms, just like millions of other kids around the planet. There's nothing complicated about it or difficult to understand, not from mine or my kids' perspective at least.

[ReineD]

What in your views defines maternal vs. paternal? Maybe I don't understand what is meant by this because of the way I am and my own personal experience with my children.

Fo example: I believe in allowing children to learn and grow by their mistakes. This meant not imposing such strict rules that they could not make mistakes, and not saving them when they did, in other words allowing them to experience the natural consequences of their actions all while making sure that their safety was not compromised ... as painful as it was for me to witness their suffering when they did experience those consequences. For example, if they didn't do their homework they got an F. This, in my opinion, was the very best way to prepare them for their adult life because it set them free by teaching them responsibility. My husband, on the other hand, felt the need to protect them at all costs, he took personal responsibility for their homework for example, and it was difficult for him to see them become their own person and grow beyond the confines of parental authority and protection. I would not make my children's beds past the age of 12 or do their laundry past the age of 16, my husband would. I would encourage my children to save for what they wanted, my husband would buy them whatever they wanted. We both love our children beyond words, we were both very physically affectionate toward our children, we both read to them, we both drove them around to all their activities, we both provided a listening ear when they needed to talk, etc. When I lost custody of my youngest child to my ex (he was entering high school and wanted to move from our small town to LA), a part of me died even though he was able to make that decision precisely because of the way I had raised him.

Is one way of being more maternal or paternal than the other?

[Bria]

Reine, you brought up exactly what I had in mind. What you described is a reversal for what I see as the "traditional" maternal and fraternal roles. Just yesterday I was talking to a 9th grader whose parents don't fit into neat boxes of maternal and paternal. Now I don't see it as bad that some of us don't fit the neat boxes but I think that it is good for kids to have both approaches. Do kids see this as here's what it is to be a man/women, I suppose so at least to a certain extent. We see on this forum that many people have trouble forcing themselves into those neat boxes that society "expects." All this said, I don't think that any of us (writ large) should be disqualified from parenthood by not fitting into a neat box of maternal/paternal inclination

Hugs, Bria

[Dianne S]

I'm really happy that I have kids. That fact makes me not regret transitioning sooner even though in many ways it would have been better for me to have done so.

I also agree with Reine on the questionable division of parenting roles into "maternal" and "paternal". I played both roles at various times with my kids. In fact, my eldest daughter did not like shopping with her mom, so when she had to get a dress for a formal dance at a school trip, I went with her. I was not out to my children at the time and it was killing me to be looking at all the great dresses. I ended up spotting a dress that I said would look great on my daughter, and it did... she bought it.

At the same time, I also joke around a lot with my kids and am far more rough-and-tumble and laissez-faire than my ex ever was.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Generalities do not go to specifics...

Maternal simply means being the primary emotional connection for your child at minimum and the primary child raising parent at a maximum...

a father that does this is sharing a traditional maternal role...this is a wonderful thing especially if both parents are emotionally available to help their kids make good decisions and understand consequences

[kimdl93]

As a transgendered person, I feel fortunate that circumstances have allowed me to be a parent. Note I said parent...not father or mother. I share Reine's view on parenting. It's really neither maternal nor paternal...in the appropriate times parenting provides nurturing, protection, accountability and ultimately the freedom to embark on their own lives. And I think back to a post by Jorja a few days ago, relating her very justifiable feeling of pride at helping several young TG people mature into successful adults. Parenting is not a gender role and it isn't always biological.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

my kids want me to be their dad, and their mom their mom. They are so clear about this that when i take them out and people call me their mother they correct the person..

In my upbringing, my dad played a very paternal role, my mom played a very maternal role..
if you don't know what i mean by this i can't help you..

they both loved us in their own special way..we are a happy loving family...

I guess we are just weird ...

[Bria]

I grew up in the 40s and 50s when gender roles were very strictly defined and I'm sure that that has effected the way that I have parented my five girls. When my wife and I got married, I came with two girls and a dog, and my wife came with three girls and a cat! We made one family out of it and I can assure you that parenting does not require a biological component. It does require a very large dose of unqualified love, and a lot of patience. Even though we thought that some of them would never "grow up" It has happened, sooner for some than others!

We now have 13 grandchildren and one great grandson and I couldn't be happier. It doesn't make so much difference whether parents fit into the strict gender roles of my parents as the fact that they have parents that love them unconditionally and provide the material and emotional support that they need to become successful adults!!

My 2 cents!

Hugs, Bria

[ReineD]

my kids want me to be their dad, and their mom their mom. They are so clear about this that when i take them out and people call me their mother they correct the person..

I wonder what they mean by that. Kaitlyn, next time they say this, would you ask them to elaborate and post their answers here?

Ask them how the roles differ, how the relationships differ between "mom" and "dad".

I suspect the answers will have more to do with the individual personalities that you and your ex have and how you each interact with your kids based on you personalities, rather than universal definitions of a mother's or a father's role.

I'm sure you do the same things for your kids when they are over, as your ex does: cook dinner, help with homework, drive them around, talk to them, etc.

[Teresa]

When I first posted this I was asked if I wanted it answered by fully transitioned TSs only ! My original text and reply #7 posed a specific question , some replies are very interesting but the thread has drifted off ! I can see it has raised some other important issues, maybe you'd like to post your own if you have a point to make ! May we get back to the basic question which is really what full transition means and how far short does it fall from wanting to be a complete woman ?

[Dianne S]

May we get back to the basic question which is really what full transition means and how far short does it fall from wanting to be a complete woman ?

Sure. For me, "full transition" means being accepted in my daily life as a woman. That's it; nothing else. I have no idea what it means to be a "complete woman" because I have no idea what the definition of a "complete woman" is. My sister is certainly a woman, but she and her husband were not able to have kids, so having kids isn't necessary to complete a woman.

And slightly off-topic, but Teresa, I find your love of exclamation marks slightly distracting.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I did ask..they said..
you are not my mom
pretty mundane LOL
i really kind of think everybody knows what a maternal role is, i think you are reading way more into what i wrote than is there...i am not stupid...i realize that "roles" are often shared and rightfully so...i sure didnt mean to cause confusion.

====

teresa
i guess i can understand the curiousity..but its just YMMV type of answer you will get... i don't have any idea what it means to be a complete woman
...and its interesting your question has morphed into "how far short does transition fall from being a complete woman?" that's a tell to me of what's going through your mind...
what's a complete woman? what makes you think transition falls short of anything?

To me Teresa transition was a means to cure my gender dysphoria...sometimes i don't even think of myself as a woman...usually i don't think of it at all... i find as transtion fades into life, my day to day femaleness just is... there is no form to it that I can touch and say "here is what i am now"...i just am and i'm no longer tortured by just existing......in fact, outside of the record of what i said and wrote, i have very little conscious memory of feeling any different than i do now..

GD is nasty business but transition kills it..in some ways that is the entire story..

I have no issue with the question, but its a rabbit hole question..i had alot of rabbit hole questions but i found no answers just more questions...

hopefully dianne you don't mind all my ........... hehe

[ReineD]

That's it; nothing else. I have no idea what it means to be a "complete woman" because I have no idea what the definition of a "complete woman" is.

I don't know either. I used to think that being a woman fundamentally meant her biological functions, but women have mastectomies, hysterectomies, etc, and it makes them no less women. Some women are heads of household (single moms with earning power), does this make them men? For that matter, what's a complete man. Some men are 5'6 with small feet. They are not incomplete men. A male librarian who isn't into sports is not less of a male. I know I'm preaching to the choir.

I did ask..they said..
you are not my mom
pretty mundane LOL
i really kind of think everybody knows what a maternal role is, i think you are reading way more into what i wrote than is there...i am not stupid...i realize that "roles" are often shared and rightfully so...i sure didnt mean to cause confusion.

No it's OK, you didn't confuse me. Gender roles have changed considerably since I was young and I just asked the question since it was brought up by a few people before me. There is a HUGE difference between couples in their 20s & 30s who are having kids now (when they both have careers), and the way the gender roles were defined when my parents were raising me.

This study only touches on one aspect of parenting, but it's an example of there being no difference between paternal and maternal instinct:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-...-as-a-mothers/

...and its interesting your question has morphed into "how far short does transition fall from being a complete woman?"

I don't know if my opinion is welcome here, but in my eyes, a transitioned woman does not fall short at all.

[PaulaQ]

My question is because I've seen very little evidence of TSs saying that their goal in life if it were possible would be to become pregnant and have children, if they had been born a woman that would be their biggest consideration !

I've always wanted to be able to have a child. I was bitter when I realized as a kid that I was going to be unable to conceive, that my lack of a period meant I was never going to give birth either.

I'd really like to have been able to have a baby. That I couldn't, and never will makes me enormously sad. The horrible part? My BF and I talk about this. In principle, biology would allow us to have a child together, at least had we met younger. In fact, though, both of us would choose death over the way we'd have to conceive a baby. We simply could not do it emotionally.