Transgender = Transsexual ???? Since When?

[Lorileah]

but If i was walking down the street and being harassed for my height and appearance as a ts woman how many would step up and identify themselves as being under my "umbrella", am i to be lumped in with the group of guys that dress enjoy she male porn or that would want to date me because i'm trans?

You need new friends


Or maybe because I do accept being a part of the whole big we are one umbrella, my CD and DQ friends WOULD stand up with (for) me and I would them. I have.

The porn thing? Ciswomen are in your boat, I don't see that women wouldn't back another woman if for some reason she was being harassed just because she was an exotic dancer or a mailroom clerk.

I get the part about tranny chasers, I do, I get the part where we are seen as objects by CERTAIN men, I do. I also get the part where other men do treat me with respect and they treat my CD friends the same way.

Right now I don't have a boyfriend (girlfriend) mostly because I demand respect, but to be really fair, I haven't looked at places like church or civic groups and such. My socialization is with my TG friends.

In a way I really do feel sorry for those who are willing to cut or not even make ties with the rest of the community. I have met wonderful people. I also have wonderful friends in other communities. I just attract nice people I guess.

In my fantasy world, the day after surgery, I will wake up and the world will be unicorns and rainbows and I will have a house in the suburbs with 2.3 children and attend PTA meetings and Tupperware parties. But I know better. You don't get to play the Cis-gender card, I wish it were true. So what do I have to do?

My choice is to make my world better. To make people see that TGs (yes all TGs) are very much like they are. I have spent an inordinate amount of time on these boards trying to get everyone to play together. I don't see me turning my back on anyone here after surgery because I have the parts then. It confuses the hell out of me why so many are so adamant that they don't want to associate with people who may have the same concerns and issues as you do.

Have fun Be isolated. Don't care what happens to those around you. You don't like being associated with porn stars? You don't like being laughed at? DO SOMETHING about it. Stand up Don't think for a moment when that anesthesia wears off that your world will be any different than it is now. You have to make it better yourself.

Nigella, it's A.

The rest of you, tear yourselves up, just stay in the rules so I don't have to fix things here.

[Badtranny]

No Lori, you jumped off Kait's quote to the wrong conclusion.

That particular point was about the vast majority of part-timers who literally lead two separate lives. Those dudes who are so fragile that they won't even verbally defend trans people for fear of being "outed". There are people on this board who have admitted to actually joining in with their buddies on the name calling. I am friends with some great people who I like an awful lot, but even they are crazy closeted in certain company or certain areas.

That is something that you have less and less tolerance for as the years go by. Kaitlyn is making a hard distinction between those that have secret lives, and those that have stopped living with secrets.

People can call themselves whatever they want as far as I'm concerned, but at the end of the day all you are is what you show the world. The rest is just pretending.

[Rogina B]

I think Isha's position is best. Let people who hear the word transgender ask if you are planning to transition then take the time to explain the broader meaning and how it applies to you. It can be exhausting and feel like you are having the same conversation over and over again, but it represents an opportunity to build a relatinship with a person that may lead to greater acceptance.

My feelings and actions every day! Show them with confidence that you are what you are,regardless of the "buzz word" as of late. We are all human beings that need to be accepted as such. No one really cares what is in your panties...

A lot of accepting people I know seem much more comfortable in thinking of me as transexual, although they say transgender.

Doesn't help that different people use different names: my parents, for example, used "queer." A much worse choice.....

I accept "queer"...No big deal..If that person doesn't get it..so be it.

I do understand that CDs don't believe that things that effect the Transsexuals are important to them. I can understand that they may see this as an "I can quit anytime, thus I don't need laws, or rights or protections that the TSs need." But they are wrong. It isn't a transsexual rights thing, it is a HUMAN rights thing.



We are all in the same boat, it would make life easier if we all rowed together. Call yourself what you will, but don't marginalize any other part of our community. Like they say, "Don't muddy the water around you, you may have to drink it soon"

This is why I lobby so hard for Human Rights Ordinances here in NE Florida.. Any form of "T" we are still the same and want the same.

[Bria]

Nigella, simply put, B

Lorileah, thank you, you make really good sense!

Hugs, Bria

[Pat]

Just A or B Nadine (and Nigella...) - but where would be the fun in that...???

It does leave one in the unfortunate position of having to argue that gender is NOT a binary, but transgender IS.

[Eryn]

The average person doesn't have much of a concept of what transgender people are. To them, Bruce Jenner, Christine Jorgenson, Laverne Cox and Kristen Beck define the word "transgender."

They don't know or care that most of us do not want to transition and are perfectly happy living in the middle of the spectrum. If we were to try to explain the nuances to them they would lose interest about two sentences in.

So, why bother? When I am out and about en femme I have no problem with being perceived as TS or, for that matter, gay. It's a waste of my time and effort to attempt to educate people for whom the difference ultimately means nothing.

[PaulaQ]

So, why bother? When I am out and about en femme I have no problem with being perceived as TS or, for that matter, gay. It's a waste of my time and effort to attempt to educate people for whom the difference ultimately means nothing.

I explain it to them. But then again, I'm a bitch.

[flatlander_48]

You are missing the key point. TS may be genetically male but their gender identity is female. CDs are genetically male and most of them have a gender identity that is male. That makes us different. TS are not crossing the gender boundary. They are already on the other side.

No, I think you missed the point. You're talking about ONLY the end game. I was speaking about the entire process. A person who becomes a M2F transsexual starts out as a male. Now, unless you are raised as a female from Day 1, you have spent some time as a male. However, at some point you come to the realization that there is a mismatch between your physical and psychological selves. Maybe you begin to crossdress, but eventually you realize that your situation needs more than occassional dressing and that there is a considerable mismatch between your physical and psychological selves. At a minimum, the desire is to live 24/7 as a female and taking steps to correct the incongruency is considered.

For most people, I would guess that self-awareness starts somewhere in adolescence. Until that time, chances are that you have lived as a male, even though that may have seemed difficult and frustrating. And yes, transsexuals do cross the gender boundary; it's just that their last trip is one-way.

Also, I find it hard to believe that crossdressers can really identify as 100% male. It doesn't seem right that such a person would be willing to present as the other gender. What would be the point? I think that there has to be a bit of dysphoria; not much, but some.

DeeAnn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

actually no you miss the point and you prove emma's point...
you have no idea what you are talking about.

the END game is totally and completely irrelevant to Emma's idea. your focus on the end game is the common mistake made my people that do not understand transsexuals..

You make a great argument for why transsexuals bristle at being included in a label filled with people that have no clue about what they are...

what you are talking about IS the problem i have with all of this...

i am a woman...i have moved mountains to get people to see me as one, to accept me as one and to thrive as one.... i don't need "other tg" people talking about how i'm just one of those tg people that decided to "go all the way"..


it continues to amaze me how little some folks know about actually being transsexual but talk about it like they do know..and treat me like a jerk for daring to talk about it.

[Badtranny]

Also, I find it hard to believe that crossdressers can really identify as 100% male.

Me too. I love it when we get the pronouncements; "I'm all man, 100% straight, and will kick anybody's ass who says otherwise"

um, ok ...Tiffany?

Look I was closeted for a long time and I was cruising other closet cases in freakin' parks. I know how hard it is to face the hard truth, but there is no way a regular straight dude is putting on panties and making his friends call him Chantrice. You are bent in some way, and if you don't like transgender, then you're stuck with the time worn queer.

[Eryn]

So, why bother? When I am out and about en femme I have no problem with being perceived as TS or, for that matter, gay. It's a waste of my time and effort to attempt to educate people for whom the difference ultimately means nothing.

I explain it to them. But then again, I'm a bitch.

I've tried that on occasion, but it seems the lesson that I actually impart is "TG people are self-obsessed and annoying."

[Jenniferathome]

Melissa, that was YOUR reality. I can promise you that it is not mine. I can certainly see how these two concepts are seemingly incongruous but straight (all the way straight) and cross dresser can go together. 'Bent' might be accurate. I prefer 'weird' because cross dressing is kind of weird. It makes no sense. But 'weird' leaves out all notion of gender or sex.

[Alex!]

DeeAnn, it may be hard to believe, but it is true that you can be a crossdresser and identify 100% as male. I am a case in point. Crossdressing is not just a behavior expressed by those with gender dysphoria. It is also a sexual behavior or a behavior that can trace its genesis to a sexual fetish that has since evolved into something more emotionally complex, but still not related to gender dysphoria.

Others here will no doubt conclude I am in denial, some with arrogant zeal. While this hardly matters to me personally, I think it is important to reiterate this point (made by a few others here as well) for those who visit this forum to seek understanding about what makes them tick.

[Nadine Spirit]

Okay, so..... what I can see throughout this thread is that we have a few groups:

- people who think that including everyone under the TG umbrella as pictured in the graphic would be preferred
- people who think that only TSs should be considered as TG and that CDs are in a totally separate category
- people who think that TS are not TG and are actually cisgender
- people who think that nobody should be labeled as anything
- and some people who think that some other people have staplers in their pockets

Have I missed some?

Just how many ways should we split ourselves into different groups? And for those who think that we should not be labeled, doesn't that just erase us as existing within any groups?

Seriously, I don't see how anyone would be harmed by any and all of us being included in one big (apparently unhappy) family. Then within that group we can have our own specialties. At least then maybe we could understand that we are at least all on the same team and could all stand up and support each other.

[flatlander_48]

it continues to amaze me how little some folks know about actually being transsexual but talk about it like they do know..and treat me like a jerk for daring to talk about it.

You make it sound like this all some great mystery when it is just the opposite.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

Further, what is there to be gained by splintering off subsets of us? It is a game of numbers; critical mass. That is also a simple concept, but exactly why does that have no appeal to you? When everyone stands apart, nobody wins.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Ignorance is bliss.
so let me get this straight..you make a false statement, i call you out, and i protest too much?? that's really your answer...

how exactly is it a game??

i speak at public forums quite often...i make it very clear what i am and what i think...i have talked to many many people over the years about what happened to me..
i make it very clear that i am a transsexual woman and i don't speak for anybody but me and at the same time i can support everyone's right to be who they are ...
over and over people respond positively...over and over i have to say no i am not a cross dresser..no i am not a man that turned into a woman..i talk in brutally frank detail about moments, thoughts, heartbreaks and operations..
and people respond one by one...thats how you do it, thats what matters.

please tell me what specific right would you like deeann (or anybody) that you think i would not support because i cannot call myself transgender? because i cannot call myself a man or a bi gendered person??

what makes anybody think that i would not accept you as you are? (btw apologies to katey for my poor word choice earlier...i used the word choose casually and didnt mean to imply that being a cd or tg or whatever is some kind of choice)


please be specific...please say exactly what it is that you lose out on when i assert my actual identity instead of some made up media driven oversimplification?

[PaulaQ]

TS are not crossing the gender boundary. They are already on the other side.

Uh no. We absolutely cross a gender boundary. Our biological sex (assuming we can agree on what that means - this is also not a trivial matter) does not match our internal gender identity. For cisgender people, the two line up. Indeed, straight, cisgender people can tell an immense amount about themselves just be looking between their legs. I think this is why they fixate on that stuff so much - because they can.

The default assumption in our world is sex = gender. We cross that boundary.

There is a still a failure to answer. I was never a man. You are a man(assuming you are not ts)..or perhaps you are a transgendered man...

Therein lies the rub - "assuming you are not ts". This is why we are all under one umbrella, and this is a spectrum. You and I both very strongly conform to cisnormative standards I suspect. That's fine. We're just women. We already know that. The trouble is, lots of us don't know, and are in denial about it, until suddenly we can no longer deny it. That reason alone is enough to lump us all together. I'm not saying that all CDs are TS - just that it's hard to tell who's who until after the fact.

Also the symptoms many CDs report seem very similar to mild versions of symptoms of full on GD that those of us who transition report:
- they can't give this up.
- they become uncomfortable when they don't present as female after a time
- their feelings vary in intensity
- their feelings tend to be episodic

There are many others.

But look - it's not just CDs. There are butch lesbians who identify as female. And then others who eventually realize "I'm really a man." From the point of view of the outsider, these two populations are very difficult to distinguish from one another - until after one starts transition.

I'm not sure what you'd consider a non-binary gender identity, if not trans. I'm not sure what you'd consider someone who may be assigned male at birth, but who identifies as a woman, but only weakly, if not trans.

The thing is - it's not just identity, it's also expression.

[Lorileah]

You make a great argument for why transsexuals bristle at being included in a label filled with people that have no clue about what they are...

Oh and I thought the TSs just didn't want anyone to get the same treatment they were looking for. Why DO TSs not like CDs and vice versa? I don't get it Guess it's the left over hippie in me.

what you are talking about IS the problem i have with all of this...

i am a woman...i have moved mountains to get people to see me as one, to accept me as one and to thrive as one.... i don't need "other tg" people talking about how i'm just one of those tg people that decided to "go all the way"..

And yet...you are reading the MtF part of this forum and commenting in it. If you believe all that, why use a forum where people talk about transitioning from male to female or female to male if you are (were) always a woman? Seems that the forum is to help people get to the point of where they are going.

I am constantly amazed by the infighting as I said. NO ONE IS MORE T than anyone else. "

It was a progression for me. Yes I always considered myself female BUT I needed and received help and guidance from people, CDs and TSs on these boards. Maybe the answer is if you don't like how some people don't have your perspective you should stay in other sections? I am here, as a TS, with the hope and desire to help, inform, support ANY person who is TG. Consider the two letters to mean what you will. You don't don't like what people say, don't read it.

Nothing is life is 100% but I am sure there are men here who are all man, in silk.

[emma5410]

You make it sound like this all some great mystery when it is just the opposite.

It it obviously a mystery to you because you clearly do not understand it DeeAnn. By the way most TS, but not all, become aware of their gender issues as small children not adolescents.

Quote
Originally Posted by Paula Q
Uh no. We absolutely cross a gender boundary. Our biological sex (assuming we can agree on what that means - this is also not a trivial matter) does not match our internal gender identity. For cisgender people, the two line up. Indeed, straight, cisgender people can tell an immense amount about themselves just be looking between their legs. I think this is why they fixate on that stuff so much - because they can.

The default assumption in our world is sex = gender. We cross that boundary.

Many in our world would still define you as a male irrespective of anything you said or did. I do not care what the default assumption of the world is. I will not be defined by ignorance even you are happy to be. I was born physically male but with a female gender. That means that I have not crossed a gender boundary. Physically I was born male and have made my body more female but that is fixing a physical defect. It did not change my gender.

[PaulaQ]

I was born physically male but with a female gender. That means that I have not crossed a gender boundary. Physically I was born male and have made my body more female but that is fixing a physical defect. It did not change my gender.

Unfortunately, they get to define this - not us. They have police and guns and stuff. We don't. There's lots more of them.

No, your gender did not change. But your gender and physical sex are opposite - that is why you are transgender. So yes your gender is on the opposite side of your physical sex with respect to a cisgender person.

Trans - a prefix meaning “on the other side of,” referring to the misalignment of one’s gender identity with one's biological sex assigned at birth:
transgender; transsexual. This comes from a chemistry term - a prefix denoting a geometric isomer having a pair of identical atoms or groups on the opposite sides of two atoms linked by a double bond.

By the way most TS, but not all, become aware of their gender issues as small children not adolescents.

I don't buy this. Citation please. By the way, being aware of a gender issue, and being able to come out to yourself, are totally different things.

[ReineD]

I started noticing it about 5 years ago. My first impression was that people wanted to distance themselves from the "sexual" part of "transsexual", in particular kids who are transitioning? The media certainly prefers the term "transgender", maybe because we live in a puritanical society and no one likes to have the word "sex" associated with their name? And then some CDers jump in on the bandwagon and want to be called "transgender" because it doesn't seem to have the same fetish taboo associated with it as the word "crossdresser"? I know, I'm picking at straws here. lol

But it does make it difficult to explain to people who we are. I'm sure that everyone my SO and I meet simply assumes that my SO is like Caitlyn (Bruce) Jenner.

And it makes it impossible for people in this forum to identify themselves to others here in any meaningful way. There are so many definitions floating around now for "transsexual", "crossdresser", and "transgender" that it is utterly useless for people to say who they are any more. For example two similar people might have the same urges and dress for the same reasons and to similar levels of frequency, but one person will identify himself as a male CDer while the other will say he is transgender, while another will say she is female but only while dressed, while another will say he is TS but will never transition.

It reminds me of playing, as a child. We would get into these incredibly complex games where we just made up the rules and changed them as we went along, to suit our own unique moods and preferences.

I can imagine that many SO's are very concerned about this ... the more its an umbrella the more the cd must face the question..

You'd be surprised at how many CDers there are in this forum who know in their hearts they are not women. I'd say the vast majority, although it is fun to play at being a woman in an anonymous forum. I don't think that any name or word we read in the media and in discussion forums will change how they feel. Don't forget, they do log off their electronic devices and return to their regular lives with their wives, families, kids, jobs, friends, etc. And most of their wives don't even read this stuff. There is only a tiny fraction of wives who join here (I'd say less than one percent), and the rest of the wives simply are not interested, so reading the term "transgender" in the media does not cause them concern.

People can call themselves whatever they want as far as I'm concerned, but at the end of the day all you are is what you show the world. The rest is just pretending.

Totally agree.

[PaulaQ]

My first impression was that people wanted to distance themselves from the "sexual" part of "transsexual", in particular kids who are transitioning? The media certainly prefers the term "transgender", maybe because we live in a puritanical society and no one likes to have the word "sex" associated with their name?

I'm not a puritan. I have no problem with sex - talking about it, or having it.

But I'm one of the people who don't like the term "transsexual" - because:
- it focuses on surgical changes to our bodies that are NO ONE ELSE'S BUSINESS!
- it focuses on a very medical and pathologized version of transition
- it was cooked up by cisgender folks who really don't get this
- It promulgates the notion that we change sexes. Unfortunately, that is not the case at all. Oh I wish it were.
- It confuses straight, cis people who already conflate sexual orientation with gender identity

I don't see how CDs can reject the term "transgender." One of your own helped popularize the term - Virginia Prince - the founder of Tri-Ess. She used it to describe people who would never transition medically.

I'm really sorry the lack of terminology and an infallible way of predicting the future makes many spouses of CDs super nervous. But making very fine-grained distinctions between us doesn't serve any of us well, because it makes it easy for lawmakers to drive wedges between us legally, and that serves none of us well. For example, suppose law makers decided that someone who'd transitioned far enough medically to have their gender marker changed could legally use the women's restroom, but that someone who was "just a CD" could face two years in jail for using the women's room, or other gender segregated space? I mean, they have all these neat terms and definitions - why not use them to divide the community. Because who'd want men in the women's restroom? And since CDs identify as men, that must mean they don't get to use the women's restroom, or store changing rooms, etc. when they are en femme.

Does that sound like an outcome you want? Because me and a whole bunch of other activists spent time in Austin fighting a whole bunch of legislation that was aimed at curtailing *all* of us from using public spaces. They could very easily, had we not stopped all of this crap, have made it so that "true transsexuals" with the right ID got to use public spaces, but the rest of the trans spectrum didn't. We don't want them to understand this all well enough to divide us up legally - because they will not do it for our benefit.

Why DO TSs not like CDs and vice versa? I don't get it Guess it's the left over hippie in me.

We have different goals and different situations. Many CDs are scared as hell that their wives will decide "yep, they'll transition - goodbye!" They want no association with people who transition. On the other side - those of us in transition go through what is often an excruciating process, and many CDs seem just a whole lot more frivolous than do those of us in transition. (OMG Panties!!!!) I know a number of folks in transition who find CDs to be an embarrassment. (Why in the world would a man do that to his wife, dressing up and embarrassing her like that?!?)

These differences lead us to try to erase one another.

I don't allow stuff like this to go on in our local group - at least not if I get wind of it. I reach out to local CD groups, because I don't see their experiences as any less valid than mine, and some of them will transition.

[emma5410]

Many here talk about Transgender and how we should all belong as if it was some kind of movement. But if it is what has it achieved?

If someone was to organise a march how many CDs would join it? How many would march dressed as women? Where is this Transgender group we all belong to?

In actual fact there is no grand alliance of TS and CD. It is the TS who have transitioned that have to face the world every day. I know there are exceptions but the majority of CDs live a dual life. They spend most of their public time as men and dress in secret as women. Most of those who do venture out do their best to pass as women. Is it any wonder that people think transgender and transsexual are the same thing. I sympathise with how difficult it is and that society is prejudiced but unless you step out of the shadows nothing will change.

I do not regard myself as transgender. I am not betraying some larger group or being elitist by saying that. I do not see the point of joining with a group of people who identify as male just because we both wear women clothes. What is the point of allying with a group of people who are largely invisible and unwilling to show public support because they are afraid of people finding out who they are.

[Katey888]

On the whole, well said Emma...

I'd agree with your first points unreservedly - perhaps adding just a little to recognise that some would march with you, and some may be dressed as women. I used to think that there was little that most of us required by way of legislation to protect or substantiate any rights but then I see what Isha has undertaken with the Canadian military and I think that throws a whole new light on TG folk that really need to express their duality of gender and how much harder that is for normal society to accept than a TS who does fit into the binary model that is so much more acceptable and understandable. It is a difference, although I admit it does not seem to apply to many of us. So to your final point...

I do not see the point of joining with a group of people who identify as male just because we both wear women clothes. What is the point of allying with a group of people who are largely invisible and unwilling to show public support because they are afraid of people finding out who they are.

Probably only votes, dear... it doesn't hurt to have the support of an invisible minority who you can expect to support you because they do feel some empathy with what you have to live. And some of us might eventually be prepared to de-closet if we see society shifting towards acceptance.

Katey x

[NicoleScott]

Nigella, B, the way you asked the question. But that's not how I understood the OP question. I thought the OP was asking if transgender was replacing transsexual as used in mainstream usage. I don't think it should, but I think it is.
When completing forms, surveys, etc., for school, medical, etc., I noticed about half of them ask for a person's sex, and the other half ask for gender. Also when people speak they often use one for the other. It happens here as well, but not as much. In particular, I scratch my head when I hear/read "birth gender".
It seems that to many people gender is a nicer way to say sex, so it isn't surprising that transgender is often substituted for transsexual in mainstream usage.