Discussion regarding Caitlyn Jenner

[ReineD]

And that's basically how I have treated it in my conversations. When I came out to my affinity group at work recently, I just stated that I identify as transgender and I dress. In some 1/1 discussions with a few members earlier, I stated that plus pointed out that I don't do drag and I'm not looking to transition.

Right. And it makes sense to answer the questions of the people whom you care to answer ... especially when your doctor, your wife, or even your best friend wants to know if you identify as a woman and wants SRS.

It would be nice if we had "shortcut words" that would describe major categories of all the people in this community to avoid getting into big long explanations (like the word "lesbian" ... it describes three things: a woman's sex, gender ID, and sexual attraction). And it would be nice if everyone agreed on the meaning of the shortcut words because it wouldn't take as many other words to describe what you do and what you want. But instead, we only have three shortcut words (CD, TS, TG) to describe a wide variety of people and motives and even then there are perpetual disagreements about what these shortcut words mean. So the use of any of these terms is rather pointless.

Dr. Harry Benjamin came up with a system of classifying CDs and TSs using a 6 point scale (CD type 1, 2, 3 and TS type 4, 5, 6) but it is not used; also he came up with it decades ago and there has been more research since then so it would need to be updated. But, if you're interested, here it is:
http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Origi...ginalChart.jpg

But to the masses who are not interested in you personally, I think just using "TG" is fine, which is what they and the media do anyway. And if some of the masses become more interested, if for example they discover that someone in their lives wishes to engage in cross-gender expression and they need to find out more about it, they will. And then they'll join the debate of what "CD, TG, and TS" means, since they'll pick one of the terms for themselves and insist that it describes people like themselves exclusively. lol

[flatlander_48]

I made the point is a recent message to someone that if you start to teach Physics, you don't start with the Theory of Relativity. You teach the concepts around matter, velocity, acceleration, gravity, etc. and then bring all those together into the discussion of the Theory of Relativity. You have to have context and background, with is why beginning a conversation that one identifies as #29 of the 237 possibilities between crossdresser and transsexual is just useless. And, when people don't get it (and we get pissed), we get dismissed or people make up their own information or both or something even worse...

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

You have to have context and background, with is why beginning a conversation that one identifies as #29 of the 237 possibilities between crossdresser and transsexual is just useless.

Like I said, there's no point explaining anything to the people in the first scenario who don't know you and don't care about you, which is what happens. The media does not elaborate on the meaning of "Transgender", nor do I imagine you hang a sign around your neck when you go out.

But, the second scenario: the people who do know you and care (like a wife who wants to know how you identify and if you want SRS) or who have reasons to ask specific questions (like an employer who wants to know if you plan on coming to work dressed like a woman every day, a doctor who wants to know to what degree you want to feminize your body, a best friend who wants to know if he should think of you as a man, a woman, someone in between, etc, or a prospective partner who wants to know who you are attracted to sexually), why would you not answer their questions.

[flatlander_48]

But, the second scenario: the people who do know you and care (like a wife who wants to know how you identify and if you want SRS) or who have reasons to ask specific questions (like an employer who wants to know if you plan on coming to work dressed like a woman every day, a doctor who wants to know to what degree you want to feminize your body, a best friend who wants to know if he should think of you as a man, a woman, someone in between, etc, or a prospective partner who wants to know who you are attracted to sexually), why would you not answer their questions.

Personally, I would because that what applies to me specifically with no broader range than that. It would also be a setting of give and take and extended discussion. Complicated topics can be presented and explained in that sort of situation.

It is an entirely different situation if I am speaking about the community at large in a non-personal setting. Speaking of the community at large usually requires a simplified approach. Once again, you don't start with the Theory of Relativity. You have to think more in terms of the sound bite kind of approach because usually the situations don't lend themselves to any extended explanations and discussions. Talking about the 237 splits and shades is pointless. It's like looking at an ice cube on a sidewalk. You see it now, but wait a while and it will be just s little puddle. Wait a bit longer, and you'll never know it was there. That's what happens when too much spurious information is thrown out, yet that doesn't seem to stop people from doing it.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

It is an entirely different situation if I am speaking about the community at large in a non-personal setting. Speaking of the community at large usually requires a simplified approach.

Yup, I agree. The media should continue to simply refer to everyone as Transgender, and you should continue to go out dressed without feeling compelled to explain to every stranger who you are or to wear a sign around your neck spelling it out.

As to whether or not we should have threads discussing it all here, we definitely should. People (like you perhaps?) who are not interested in dicussing the finer points of the definitions can simply choose to not participate and move on to the next thread.

[flatlander_48]

If that's what you think, nothing will ever change, will it? People really need to take a larger view beyond themselves. They don't see the difference between their own limited definitions and what's happening in the larger community. They try very hard to distance themselves because the "know" they are not like "those" people. I suspect over time they're realize that it wasn't a useful stance to take, but a lot of time, effort and momentum will be wasted.

And yes, I really see no purpose in "discussing the finer points" because in the end, it doesn't change anything. It seems that many of those discussions revolve around people trying to carve out their own little space that is separate from everybody else. Instead we should be figuring out how we can move forward as a community, in its entirety, rather than how we're NOT like somebody else.

Someone mentioned how lesbians and gays banded together, in spite of their differences. The basic thing that really bound them together was an attraction for the same sex. For us, what should bind us together is that we have ALL crossed a usually accepted gender boundary; some back and forth and some to stay. However, it seems that this is not enough to bind us together. We keep wanting to assert our differences rather than looking for common ground. That's where it becomes counterproductive...

DeeAnn

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hey as long as everybody agrees with your definitions and limits to understanding then everything will be ok. As long as everybody sees it your way and shares your goals its productive...if not, its counterproductive... nice

Too bad for you that it doesn't work that way, it must be very frustrating.

Way too many people know exactly who and what they are, and what they are not...and they are not interested in being forced to identify as something they are not just because you or some organization says so or finds it helpful to achieve your goals.

Gays and Lesbians did not become Gaysbians so they could explain it more easily... Also, gay men do not presume to speak for lesbian women as if they are one of them...
they did not have to assert their differences because it was not necessary.... gay men did not have lesbian women running around saying they were part gay and may someday go all gay..

what you call asserting difference is nothing more than asserting identity which is a basic fundamental human right

[flatlander_48]

Name ONE marginalized group that ever got anywhere by splintering itself.

DeeAnn

[emma5410]

Name ONE marginalized group that ever got anywhere by hiding in the closet/bedroom. Where a large percentage were invisible and ashamed to reveal themselves.

Gay and lesbian rights were not won by those who stayed in the closet. They were won by being visible. Gays and lesbians had common aims and problems. I agree that TS and CD do share some common problems but the aims and needs of TS go beyond those of CDs. They go beyond because TS who have transitioned are visible whether they want to be or not. I am visible not from choice but from necessity.

I support the right of CDs to dress as women and walk down the street. Problem is that most do not because of prejudice and ignorance. That will not change by passing laws. There are already laws to protect people from violence and harassment. You have to walk down the street in such numbers that it becomes acceptable. This is what TS have to do. We are facing the brunt of the prejudice. Where are the drag queens and most CDs?

Unfortunately some are on message boards talking about us all being in this together from the safety of bedrooms and with the freedom to present as male when it gets tough.

This is not aimed at you DeeAnn. I read your post about your activism and I admire you for it but you are in a minority among CDs who are prepared to put their heads above the parapet.

[stefan37]

I may fall under the "transgender umbrella" but specifically I am a transitioning transsexual that will at some point in the future integrate as a female. The problem with lumping us all together as one transgender grout group makes it harder for me to move forward.

CD, gender fluid, gender queer individuals live as both male and female and go back and forth asv they feel fit. I don't have that luxury. I live as female 24/7 and can't go back and hide as a male. Society being what is is equates my situation with those gender fluid. So they view me not as female, but also gender fluid. The different distinctions may improve in the future, but not likely in my lifetime.

The longer transsexuals identify as Trans the longer it takes (and may never) to integrate as female. It's a weird phenomena that you can interact with Cis as female and be accepted as such. But once they figure out or get outed you are treated different. I experience it frequently at work. I can meet new clients and get treated as female. But once my employees inadvertently out me the game changes.

It's probably the primary reason so many transsexuals leave the Trans community after successfully integrating as female.

[Badtranny]

Name ONE marginalized group that ever got anywhere by hiding in the closet/bedroom. Where a large percentage were invisible and ashamed to reveal themselves.

oooooooooh

Oh no she DID'nt!

Damn, I missed this thread, but I pretty much can't say anything better than what Emma just said.

I do disagree with the Drag Queen comment though. Drag Queens have been getting their asses kicked by rubes for decades just for expressing themselves openly.

It's the closet CD or the closet Queer who has nothing to say about any of this. Your closet provides you safety, but it also denies you acceptance.

On the other hand, DeeAnn is standing strong against my girls. Good thread. :-)

[ReineD]

I may fall under the "transgender umbrella" but specifically I am a transitioning transsexual that will at some point in the future integrate as a female. The problem with lumping us all together as one transgender grout group makes it harder for me to move forward.

There! That's a perfectly simple and straightforward way of explaining exactly what you are doing and what you want.

As to lumping everyone together, I agree that in discussions in this forum, if everyone called themselves "Transgender" members would not know what was meant so it behooves everyone to be more specific like you. But then members here are familiar with the lingo and variances; members know that some members only underdress, while others present as men with women's clothes, while others present as full-on women (some to blend in the mainstream and others to glam it up in TG nightclubs), some do it for sexual thrill and some don't, some are happy dressing 2-3 times per month to go out while others never go out dressed although they dress exclusively in women's clothing at home, some want partial female body modifications (electrolysis and breasts), some want none, while some want full transition including FFS and SRS with legal name change. So in here, it is entirely appropriate to get into the details of what people want to do.

But in the mainstream? Most people have barely a passing interest and only if they know someone who crosses the gender norms in some way ... or these people are wanting to know what's happening to Chaz or Caitlyn. If these people don't know anyone who crosses the gender norms, then to them we are a world that is far removed from their reality and they don't really care.

There are books out there, TV shows, news stories, there have been a few sensitive movies, and there are websites that discuss this community and its members in great detail, including this forum. Most of the stories are about transitioning TSs (who are referred to as "transgender"), and I think it makes it difficult for CDers who do still want to present as men to be taken seriously in comparison. Still, if anyone in the mainstream wants to learn more, they need only go to the library or turn on their computers. But do they? I don't think so.

It's a weird phenomena that you can interact with Cis as female and be accepted as such. But once they figure out or get outed you are treated different. I experience it frequently at work. I can meet new clients and get treated as female. But once my employees inadvertently out me the game changes.

I'm sorry this happens. I can certainly see the necessity for being stealth. We do live in a world that persists on defining people based on their birth-sex even when they undergo a full social and legal transition and I can't see this changing any time soon, no matter how many Caitlyns or Chaz's come out publicly and tell their stories. As to Caitlyn, I don't know if the mainstream will ever look upon her as a GG and "forget" that she was once a world-famous male decathlon gold Olympian.

I also think that more people will come to accept that some birth-males identify as females and need to live as women. But will they see them as GGs ... or as "former males". I don't think they can forget the former-male. Same with Chaz, but the reverse. How many people don't think "former Chastity Bono, daughter of Sonny and Cher" when they see him.

Edit-
I posted this by mistake without finishing.
... Anyway, I think many people in the developed world will come to accept transitioners, but I don't know if they'll be able to see transitioners fully as their target sex. I think that even when people are accepting, they'll look upon trans-women as being different than GGs. Doesn't mean they'll think of them as "men", but I think it will be difficult to get past "former-men".

[PaulaQ]

Gays and Lesbians did not become Gaysbians so they could explain it more easily... Also, gay men do not presume to speak for lesbian women as if they are one of them...
they did not have to assert their differences because it was not necessary.... gay men did not have lesbian women running around saying they were part gay and may someday go all gay..

What are you talking about? There was often great hostility between gays and lesbians back in the early days of gay rights, and in part this hostility drove lesbians to use a different term to describe themselves. They very easily could have referred to themselves as gay men or gay women. In fact, many gay people do exactly that now.

The AIDs epidemic changed this dynamic, and many gay women ended up in leadership of gay organizations, particularly AIDS related ones.

However, even today, you'll see organizations like the HRC that are largely run by white gay men, and they sure as hell claim to speak for all LGBT people.

And thanks for mentioning the horrible erasure of bisexuals "part gay and may someday go all gay" - yeah, this is precisely what I hear all the damned time here in the Dallas gay community.

[tommi]

I think the amount of press has been good and bad as this has made people aware of our plight .
At the same time in a neighboring school
The local news had a story of a ftm getting to dress in the male colors.
My sons own school had 2 and there was no press or mention of it other then the class president pointing out how accepting his class was of everybody .
My only question is do we need all the press and tabloid of if all.
Accept me for who I am not what I was

[AllieSF]

Yes, Tommi, we do need all the press and tabloid of it. Yes, some press is better or a lot worse than others, but otherwise we are mostly out of sight and out of mind to the majority of people. The not famous transitioner's like those kids who are just starting their lives will only become public knowledge when someone decides to write about it or someone makes a big negative fuss about them. Thus, in other locations we have no knowledge that it is happening successfully without a lot of issues. However, what might happen successfully in one school if not the norm in a lot of others, If the administration and teachers do not actively support and protect them, their young lives can be an unnecessary hell.

Having well known figures like Caitlyn Jenner publicly transitioning, especially the way that she is, very publicly, will bring into view the lives of others who are trying to transition who have had such an unfair time of just trying to live their own lives as best that they can. I realize that Caitlyn will be making a lot of money out of her process and at times it will be over the top as reality TV can be. However, that not so positive aspect of her transition will be far out weighed by a lot of positive results of just letting everyone else out there know that we exist, have rights and have been mistreated for way too long. That is my belief.

[flatlander_48]

The longer transsexuals identify as Trans the longer it takes (and may never) to integrate as female. It's a weird phenomena that you can interact with Cis as female and be accepted as such. But once they figure out or get outed you are treated different. I experience it frequently at work. I can meet new clients and get treated as female. But once my employees inadvertently out me the game changes.

It's probably the primary reason so many transsexuals leave the Trans community after successfully integrating as female.

Is this really true? I do not mean this to demean anyone, but the reality is that genetic women usually have a 2 or 3 decade head start in thinking and interacting with the world as a female. I'm speaking of this in the broadest sense. Females have a very different perspective on the world compared to males. They have different expectations, different ways of socializing, different ways of getting things done, different ways of influencing their environment, etc.

So, the question is how much of these differences can be learned and assimilated by people who were raised as males? It would seem that this is a major challenge that must be worked around. Clearly my perspective is from the outside looking in, so I wonder how this plays out in real life?

DeeAnn

[stefan37]

It is absolutely true. Whether you are CD, gender fluid or transsexual. Hanging and socializing predominately with other Trans individuals is in many ways trading one closet for another. Integrating into society as female is indeed a challenge. To be successful, we need to socialize with as many Cis individuals as possible. Join professional associations, social Clubs and be out and about. We are at a disadvantage transitioning to female from a male socialized perspective. Many times I feel as if I am cramming for a test. I'm also finding that 2 years full-time is way more difficult than the year before. I am being accepted by more individuals and many do view me as female until they figure I'm Trans. I'm transitioning in place in my town, in my business and in front of my family and friends. Stealth for me is not an option. I'm OK with that. Transition is a very long term process. I have no doubt that I will be successful in the long term. Short term will take more work.

I have no doubt that Jenner's transition will be beneficial long term understanding Trans issues. Short term, we will have a bright spotlight shining on us. Unlike some that blab their Trans status to just about everybody they meet. I don't volunteer, but I won't deny. I feel comfortable and confident talking to anybody about my transsexuality. I've also learned the best thing is not to talk about it unless asked. And in many cases the less said the better.

I have many Trans friends and I have no problem going out with any of them. However to move forward and integrate I need to limit my involvement with the Trans community. There are many dysfunctional vocal individuals that feel their view and transition are the only valid ones and woe to those that don't toe their line of thinking.

If CD, gender fluid individuals want to be accepted and have the freedom to express as they wish. They need to get out and be visible by interacting with the general public.

[flatlander_48]

I have many Trans friends and I have no problem going out with any of them. However to move forward and integrate I need to limit my involvement with the Trans community.

Sorry, but that sounds like "I've got mine. You? You're on your own...".

[Collette Z]

I have nothing to add except to repeat flatlander over and over again.

we should quit trying to insert 37 different categories between crossdresser and transsexual. All that does is confuse everyone, serves no one and is a complete waste of time and effort. Yet, people continually try to do this because they don't want to be included with "those" people. B/S...

[PaulaQ]

It's a weird phenomena that you can interact with Cis as female and be accepted as such. But once they figure out or get outed you are treated different. I experience it frequently at work. I can meet new clients and get treated as female. But once my employees inadvertently out me the game changes.

I experience this frequently. I am very open about being trans. I've been in the local media, newspapers and television. I disclose my trans history to people after I've known them a short time. I do this deliberately, because visibility is what will change attitudes about us.

And upon this disclosure, my relationship with the cis person often changes subtly, and not in a good way. This isn't universally true. I sometimes meet cis people who don't really seem to care that I'm trans. But for many others, I become a curiosity, an object - something they feel they can ask terribly personal questions, because I have no right to basic human respect and dignity.

This can be very isolating.

I do this because many others of us will never pass. So why should I? Oh, I'll use passing privilege for safety - I'd be insane not to - but I believe I'm of better service to the community by being open about who I am.

I also understand why this isn't for everyone, and I criticize no one for being stealth. Feeling like an exile is stressful. Unfortunately, my observations of people who are stealth is that frequently they find they are simply in another closet, living in fear of discovery, isolated from people who understand how they feel.

Anyway, because I'm out, I have rather few close cis friends. It'd be nice to socialize with more cis people, but thus far, it simply doesn't happen for me. I do miss this.

[stefan37]

Nothing could be further from the truth Dee Ann . I expended a tremendous amount of energy, angst, money and personal losses to be where I am. I continue every single day to accepted as female and its a huge challenge. I will never be stealth due to where I live, my age and owning and running my own electrical/mechanical contracting company. But trust me I have no intention of living in trannyland forever either.

That's the reality of living as a transwoman 24/7. I can't go back to a safe comfort level as a male. You may think it's I got mine screw the rest, but I worked damn hard just as anyone that is actively transitioning from one gender to another.

Hell I would venture a guess a majority that post here are hiding from their spouses and so's. You want acceptance and the freedom to express freely, then get out and go out with Cis people. Not just go out solo or with a group of CD's to dinner or whatever. Join a social club and mingle. Until Trans individuals stop hiding and start interacting with the general public amongst them socially will the stigma hopefully subside.

[flatlander_48]

s:

You have to remember that this is the Internet. Very few of us actually know one another and the significant details of our lives. Also intrinsic to this environment, we have words without the nuances realized from basic human contact. In that context, I responded to what your words said to me.

DeeAnn

[Samantha_Smile]

So far TLDR....

My stance on the matter.
As outward appearances look good for Caitlyn in that - her surgeries have had a beautiful cosmetic effect and I wish her the best (she will need it), I have doubts about the circumstances under which the transition took place.
As an impartial bystander with only the word of my own TS friends and my own medical knowledge (been a registered nurse for 10 years) I have to say that it all seems very rushed.
I think that even though she does have a lot of disposable income, I feel that she has done too much too quick and it will lead to something worse than killing another person with her car.
I believe she has unexplored psychological issues not related to GID and that this may be, in part, a coping mechanism.
It may be wrong of me to say, but I'm worried whenever I see anyone... ANYONE over the age of 40 transition. Not just because of the physical toll, but because I have to wonder, how did this person make it to 40 and not come out or kill themselves?
How did this woman, living in a man's body cope for 40 years or more without wanting to end the suffering of living a lie?
I appreciate that 40 is sorta 'picked out of the air' but think about it... could you cope that long?

I'm sceptical that (then) Bruce's motivations to become Caitlyn were... what's the right word?.... Correct?

I think there is a lot more going on here than meets the eye.

It did annoy me to hear that she attended a support group meeting to give a talk on TSism and didn't donate a single penny to the cause.
After all that money she could afford on surgery, making it clear she's out and proud, becoming a spokesperson for TS's everywhere, but can't spare a dime to help out?


I wish her the best whether I'm right or wrong.

[flatlander_48]

S:

• There are older people who have transitioned
• She was on a path to transition some years ago, but stopped
• Did the text say that she didn't make a donation that day or had never done so?
• Many people have amazing coping mechanisms, but when they reach the end of their tolerance, something has to change. I don't see how there is anything magical about 40.
• How many medical people do you have to convince before you're on a path to transition?
• I don't understand "very rushed". She had facial surgery and a breast augmentation. What's rushed about that?

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

Not just because of the physical toll, but because I have to wonder, how did this person make it to 40 and not come out or kill themselves?

I began my transition at age 50. I did suicidal types of things at earlier times during my life. Sometimes your attempts fail, although my bout with alcohol at 27 could well have finished the job had my family not intervened.

I never believed I could do this, although I thought about it when I was much younger.

Some of us attempt suicide, and fail.

Do I not seem real to you?