Interacting with men and feelings of deception

[FurPus63]

I have been thinking about this for a long time. I've been going through transition now full-time for 3 years. As I've progressed into a "pretty woman," I have noticed more and more men making eyes at me or flirting with me. I'll never forget the first time a man opened the door for me at a gas station. He literally ran about 40 or 50 feet just to grab the door and hold it open for me. It was such a cool feeling and really made me feel good about myself.

Since then I've had other experiences that have caused me to start ignoring men. Purposely not making eye contact with them, not smiling, not doing anything to draw attention to myself. Even though I love dressing "sexy" and feeling the same way; I also struggle within myself when out in public. I find myself feeling like I'm somehow deceiving men. Even though I know I'm not. That is not my intention. I'm just wearing clothes that make me feel good yet I can't help but have these kinds of irrational thoughts attached to these feelings. I'm guessing most men that are attracted to me are because they assume I have the "right" body parts. Yet as a pre-op transsexual I know I don't have that yet.

Even though I love to dress and feel sexy, these thoughts and feelings prevail whenever I do. Even now sitting here wearing short, shorts and a top that reveals some cleavage (first time ever) I still find myself not wanting to make any eye contact or have any kind of interaction with men. All due to these nagging thoughts and feelings I have. Does or has anyone else had this experience? If so, how do you handle it?

Paulette

[Karolyn]

I don't know if it is exactly the same feeling I have, but here is my side of the story, and maybe that will give you an idea on your side.

We both are TG, and we used to be guys on the outside. We transitioned because we were not feeling like guys, we are women inside. That made me hating my body, particularly during the last few months before transition. I actually hated anything that was referring me to guys (intimate parts, body hair, body shape, voice). So now that I have transitioned, and since I love girls, I have nothing attaching me to the notion of men. I am actually moving away from them, I don't want to have anything to do with them, both because I am not interested (sexual orientation) and because it reminds me too much of my old self. Also, I really hate machos, it has always been the case, and when I see ones, that makes me even more reluctant to want to talk to them.

However, I had guys open the door for me, letting me go outside of the elevator first, and even one guy hitting on me in a club (he even touched my hips and legs, so he was really close). When that happened, I am not happy because they are guys, I am happy because those guys see me as a girl, not a TG. And that is huge to me on the passability side. So it is more for showing my transition goes the right way, rather than being interested in them.

[FurPus63]

Hi Karolyn,

Although I consider myself bisexual, I am more attracted to men. Especially since starting HRT. It's not about that. I love and want attention from men, I just don't want to generate any sexual feelings towards me because I feel like the way I described in my post. Thanks for the thoughts.

[Rachelakld]

tough call.
I've tried to place myself as a male who tried chatting up a TS under the assumption she was a GG.
I think I would enjoy the dates, the dinners, the wine evenings, but doubt I would be up for love making as I don't know, don't have experience in that field and that would scare me until I understood it better.
I think when your ready, you will change how you react.

Best of luck

[PaulaQ]

I'm a woman. Why wouldn't I expect straight guys to be attracted to me? I flirt back - pretty hard actually. I don't feel that I'm deceiving anyone. I'm sure this doesn't happen for me as often as it does for you, but when it does, I flirt back. What's the harm?

Paulette, it's not that we generate sexual feelings in men - they have those feelings all the time, and sometimes they just get directed towards us. After all, most guys can get aroused just by seeing the crack of dawn...

[Lorileah]

I guess i am where Paula is. I am really actively looking for someone, male or female, to partner with. Since most women aren't looking at me, it pretty much leaves men. Interestingly is that by changing my "marker" on a dating site to trans woman I have been attracting "straight" guys who assume that mean...post SRS. My experience for them so far is they are willing as long as they don't have to do anything (one way).

But now I am seeing a man, who identifies as gay, and wants to be with me...forever (Nice wish huh?) and we have discussed the pieces parts thing. His honest answer was "I don't know, we will have to see, but I want to be with you, not what's under the clothes." And he says he will be there with me as I transition. It will remain to be seen, but so far he has done everything "right".

Funny thing is, prior to this, for the last 12-18 months, NO man wanted to be with me, even for a date. So, I guess, what it comes down to at this time is that I made the decision to start looking. Before that, I must have sent out some sort of signal. That doesn't mean that men weren't nice, doing the gentlemanly things. It just didn't come off as sexual to me.

[PaulaQ]

I have been attracting "straight" guys who assume that mean...post SRS. My experience for them so far is they are willing as long as they don't have to do anything (one way).

That's often, but not always, true for straight people. The guy I am dating now is a straight man. He has been with many, many women during his life. I am the first trans woman he's ever been with. He has ZERO attraction to men. He's never been with anyone with genitals like mine. He's never wanted to be with anyone with genitals like mine. However, we really hit it off, and much to our mutual surprise, he really doesn't have any problems with me the way I am. Our relations are certainly reciprocal, and very natural feeling to us both. Everything else about me reads "woman" to him. He sees me as a woman, and becomes quite perturbed when someone implies otherwise.

I think he gets questioned about this sometimes, very politely (being rude to him about this would be a really, really, really, really stupid idea), by people who know about me. I worry that someone will eventually be dumb enough to say something really inappropriate about this to him, and that a fight will ensue.

It'd be tempting and easy to say he can deal with this because he's also trans, but I really don't think that's it. I know plenty of other trans men who would NEVER date me, and who wouldn't have sex with me if we were stranded on a desert island together for 10 years. (It's actually sort of annoying that I do know this, because frankly, I think it's such a hypocritical way to feel. But I've been informed about it quite a number of times.)

I think there are straight guys who can just deal with us. I know other trans women who are dating straight men. It's more likely to work with a bisexual guy, but there are straight guys who can overlook the one thing. (Most of the trans women I know dating straight men are very feminine, so I think for some the whole package outweighs genitalia.)

But now I am seeing a man, who identifies as gay, and wants to be with me...forever (Nice wish huh?) and we have discussed the pieces parts thing. His honest answer was "I don't know, we will have to see, but I want to be with you, not what's under the clothes."

Honestly, that "I want to be with you, not what's under the clothes", is a pretty classic bisexual person response, so perhaps he's actually bisexual, more attracted to men than women, but still able to be attracted to you. You might be causing him to make a surprising discovery about himself. It doesn't matter, really. I know lesbian identified women who stay with their trans men partners, so there are gay people who are more flexible than they might at first realize. The erasure of bisexuality in the gay and lesbian community makes many who might really be bisexual, but have a stronger preference for same sex relationships, not realize that they really are bisexual, and that some past relationship they had with someone of the opposite sex wasn't some sort of a stepping stone. (It's also bad in the straight world - but we don't expect much from most straight people to understand anything but being straight because most of them don't have to.)

So, I guess, what it comes down to at this time is that I made the decision to start looking. Before that, I must have sent out some sort of signal.

I think being open to relationships is critical. People sense this on some level.

I really wish you and your guy well. You deserve some happiness Lorileah.

[Marcelle]

Hi Paulette,

I guess I can come at this from a different POV as I skirt (no pun intended) both genders depending on how I feel during a given period of time (i.e., some days I identify as a woman and others as a man). In both genders I am attracted to women solely and have no desire to be seen sexually by men. Now I have interacted with men as a woman on various occasions but I doubt any see me as remotely attractive or a potential mate. While I may identify as a woman at times, I do not seek transition via chemical means or surgery and with the exception of my facial hair, I truly love my guy physiology and can work with it approximate a female form. However it is glaringly obvious I am a guy.

What does cause me concern when out as a woman, is that guys tend to process women for specific gender markers (we all know what that means) and if the key ingredients are there, only then does the face gets processed (well not always but generally speaking). I would hate to be in a position where a man in public venue gives me the old once over and thinks . . . not bad . . . only to come in for a closer inspection and find a guy . . . confusion . . . then who knows. So I don't feel I am actively trying to deceive anyone but am just living my life as I need to but I guess it will depend on the perception of the guy who might see me as a potential mate as to how they will react.

Cheers

Isha

[Leah Lynn]

I don't seem to attract anyone, so I must repulse everyone. Since my wife passed, I had one intimate night and it only happened due to being alcoholiclly impaired. I've given up on finding anyone of any sexual or gender persuasion.

Leah

[Dawn cd]

Even as a CD I've had the feelings Paulette expresses. Presenting as a male, but underdressing, I would look at others and think, "I have a secret you don't know." Immediately, however, this would give rise to distress because I don't wish to be secretive or hidden with others. I would much rather be transparent, and my "hiddenness" had the effect of alienating me from them: I couldn't trust them with my truth. Of course, transexuals and people in transition are more honest with their presentations. But still, if they hide the truth about their male bits they are practicing a kind of deception. Only with certain people can we be truly open---and maybe that's good enough.

[Ceera]

There is nothing wrong with being seen and admired. There is also nothing wrong with telling someone you're not interested in dating at this time. Genetic girls turn down offers all the time, and genetic men do sometimes as well, regardless of their mental gender or orientation.

I'm bisexual, so when I go out I'm willing to get attention from either gender. But I'm also I'm a fairly recent widower, and not really very interested in seeking a new mate just yet, of either gender. With rare exceptions, all I am up for is making friends, having some fun on the dance floor, and conversations over drinks. I may get pretty flirtatious when I am dancing, and I don't mind being touched and cuddled to some extent, by someone that seems attractive to me. But that is as far as it goes. I don't kiss them, aside from maybe a sisterly peck on the cheek to thank someone for a dance, or try to make them think I want more from them.

So if someone gets too 'hands on' or suggestive for my liking, or if someone makes it clear that they want more than I am open for, I do what any other polite girl would do. I thank them for the complement of their attentions, and if I've been enjoying their company that night I say so, but I explain that I'm not interested in seeking an intimate encounter or a boyfriend/girlfriend at this time. In my case, a few times that wasn't enough, and I followed up by stating that I had been married for many years and fairly recently lost my mate to a heart attack, and that I just wasn't emotionally ready to date anyone yet. Only one guy kept pressing me after that, and I just got up, said, "Sorry, no," and walked away. He was fawning after some other poor girl minutes later, and didn't bother me again.

In your case, I'd go ahead and smile and chat and accept their opening doors for you and complementing your appearance. No harm in that. They are responding to how you look, and that isn't a deception on your part. As long as you aren't leading them on and accepting dates without telling them you're not in the market for intimate companionship, I see no harm there. And if you do choose to actually date someone, that's when I would make it clear to them, before accepting the first date, that they need to know you weren't born as a girl, even though you are transitioning and plan to have the surgery eventually. You just might find that they can accept that about you, and are willing to stick with you through the transition, like the guy Lorileah said she is dating! And if they can't accept that fact about you, you've still been honest and not deceived them.

[Jorja]

Paulette, you may be fighting yourself because you are just not interested in men. Or, one of the biggest problems is due to not having GRS as yet. First, it is OK if you have not done that yet. Second, you need to make it perfectly clear to a man that you were not born a GG and still have dangly bits. Make it perfectly clear that reciprocation of that part is not necessary. Be honest from the start before the bedroom and you will not have a problem. He will either accept it or not. It is his choice.

[PaulaQ]

transexuals and people in transition are more honest with their presentations. But still, if they hide the truth about their male bits they are practicing a kind of deception.

Ummm ... no!

No one is required to wear a pin describing their genitals. I'm VERY out and visible (I've appeared on the local news as trans), and I don't answer such questions until and unless I'm ready to be intimate with someone. Anyone else who asks gets "None of your ****ing business!" as a reply. I get asked a lot, which is the downside of being as out and visible as I am.

I don't tell every random person that I'm trans, but if you know me, you'll know. But not telling you about my junk is not deception. Most people don't discuss their genitals with people they meet. We are under no obligation to do so either, except with someone we're going to have sex with.

As for you, look, living in the closet is hard, and I'm not surprised you feel distress and alienation when dealing with others. You aren't being honest with them about who you are, I suspect. I'm not suggesting that you are under any obligation to do so, other than withholding this information seems to bother you, make you feel not authentic perhaps.

I understand why you do what you do, and I can tell you that being out would solve those issues, but of course introduce a host of other issues. So whether or not it would be worth it is up to you - I can't judge that.

[FurPus63]

Paulette, you may be fighting yourself because you are just not interested in men. Or, one of the biggest problems is due to not having GRS as yet. First, it is OK if you have not done that yet. Second, you need to make it perfectly clear to a man that you were not born a GG and still have dangly bits. Make it perfectly clear that reciprocation of that part is not necessary. Be honest from the start before the bedroom and you will not have a problem. He will either accept it or not. It is his choice.

Who said I'm not interested in men? Read my post. I said I am interested in men. I just don't want to get into all that other stuff so I avoid eye contact and conversations with men. You are correct about not having GRS yet. It's driving me crazy and I just want to get that done so I can get to the "other side" of this transition, complete my transition and just live my life. Then if a guy wants to look me over, flirt, etc....I'll be happy to respond!

[Lorileah]

First, Paula thank you for your good wishes.

No one is required to wear a pin describing their genitals... and I don't answer such questions until and unless I'm ready to be intimate with someone.

Truth. But in my life, I do feel required when intimacy is likely. Something just scares me about as Colorado described it "Gay rage"

Bisexuals, I think, find it hard to describe to gays and straights how they feel about genders and sexuality. This has been an issue with me and dating (men because so far no women have accepted). It boggles them how either will work for me. Like most Bi's though I do lean to one vs the other. Maybe I am more open because I took and TA'd a Human sexuality course in the early 80's and lesson one was nothing is 100% either way when it comes to sexuality.

It has come to the forefront recently for me as I changed my "marker" on a dating site and was suddenly inundated with messages. However, most wouldn't do ANYTHING until post surgery. One said I could "do to him" but it wouldn't be reciprocal (I don't know how to define that...he's a closet bi?"). But when the question is asked (and it almost always is) "Do you like guys or girls?" and I answer "Yes", it brings a look of confusion to their face. Often the question is repeated...and then I explain, I don't look at gender. That doesn't help. But as Isha said, they had clicked off the checklist of me being female and I met most the criteria I guess. What strikes me as strange is the number of guys who would be fine with a woman who was bi (and some would be thrilled). Fantasy I guess.

I understand the OP's position. One of the first things I learned when I came "out" was men look at women differently. Within days I was inundated with sexual offers. I was also told they would control what I did and that I only had one purpose in life. It was a wake up call because as a guy I NEVER treated women in that manner. I learned quickly that even the slightest acknowledgment was viewed as a yes. That is hard to change when you are friendly. I learned that accepting a drink made you theirs for the evening and I angered several because I had the drink, then left. Even a smile means "Come over here" evidently. You can't tell the nice guys from the not so nice, until it is too deep. Note that I have had men who just wanted to get to know me...not sexually, but as a person. But they are rare. I also learned that reactions can get scary.

In my present state, I mingle and "flirt" with men as part of my "job". Usually it isn't an issue. If things get tense I can walk away and perform in another part of the room. But I have learned to read most of those. And I have protection as far as staff who can bail me out. It's part of the job. (How many people really think a singer was coming on to them and they weren't?). It's a learning curve that honestly most women never finish learning. So we go into protective mode. It's what we do. May come off as aloof or cold (thus the ice queen moniker) but it is self preservation. One of the things over in MtF that scares me is the fantasy of being with a guy. Most there don't see the reality, they see the romance.

I am scared every time I get a date. Scared of how they see me. Scared of how they perceive me. Scared that when (if) the truth comes out I will be standing alone. That is part of life and from what I know from GGs it is what their lives have been forever. Nothing is black and white. That would make life too easy

[Badtranny]

But still, if they hide the truth about their male bits they are practicing a kind of deception.

Only my inner circle knows the truth about my 'bits'.

I don't feel like I'm practicing any deception at all. Why in the world would anyone busy themselves with speculation about my undercarriage? Do people like me not deserve privacy? Am I not allowed to have any mystery at all?

Perhaps men should start being more open about the size of their, wedding tackle. I mean isn't a big hunky guy practicing a form of deception if he's packin' a tiny pickle?

[Angela Campbell]

I didn't worry about it before. I dated men and never any issues. I dated women too, none ever had an issue with my "bits", at least not to my knowledge. If someone asked me I would have told the truth, but that was rare. In the few occasions where it was imminent that they were going to find out I would tell them. No complaints there either.

As far as dating "streight " guys.......not sure they exist to tell the truth. Mostly guys who don't want anyone to know is more like it. I was with several straight guys...so they and everyone else said....before I had the thing removed.

Now, I don't say anything about the subject, unless asked directly.

[Krisi]

If you don't want attention from men, you might want to rethink the "dressing sexy" thing. Yes, you have the right to dress any way you want to but you should understand the consequences. As for deceiving men, in a sense you are but it's not important unless things get personal with them. At that point you should probably let them know what to expect.