Nature vs. Nurture

[Victoria Demeanor]

Hello and I hope you are all doing well tonight,
Recently I came across some information, which very disturbing in means of medical and physiatrist malpractice, it is an interesting case of nature vs. nurture. It deals with twin boys, a botched circumcision and one of them, being raised as a girl.
Instead of posting the story on this thread I will just add the Wikipedia link, but I encourage you all to check other sites on this study.
It is a sad story, especially how the medical field can go about things In the name of research. I am not looking for a debate in medical ethics, but rather what this means in the terms of the nature vs. nurture argument.
I think being born in the right body and forced to live in the wrong gender is pretty much the same as being born in the wrong body and being forced to live in the wrong gender.
Interested in what you all think, so go read, come back, let discuss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

[Belle Cri]

A very familiar yet unfortunate story. I am happy to discuss openly.

[Jaylyn]

Interesting and I agree with you but did you read the History of the case? I mean twins humping each other by doctors orders.... Sounds very crazy to me. The twin of David didn't fare much better.

[sometimes_miss]

This is a well known case. You can find numerous sources about it, including a few videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HfA...E3CF1A3748F93F
Is part 1 of several, done by the BBC. There's more out there if you're interested, but this basically tells the tale of what happened.
If you want nature vs nurture, read my bio. It explains how you can take a normal boy and turn him into a very gender confused person, and the long term effects that are possible from such malevolent interventions. I'm not saying this is the reason for ever TG person to be who they are; I'm saying that it's possible that external influences can alter our basic gender ID. For some it will be 100% nature, for some 100% nurture, for others, perhaps some of both. At this point we have no way to know. I may have been the result of all nurture, or there may have been some genetic trigger that was turned on at the same time which made it easier to occur. No way to know. Also, please don't try to narrow down the 'one, true' reason for crossdressing, transgenders, or transexuality. You're not going to find it. Because there's more going on than just one thing. Example: If you don't wear clothes, how could you be a crossdresser. Answer: You can't. So something else is going on.

[Victoria Demeanor]

Belle Cri discuss please.. we are open. Familiar? I'm sorry have you herd of another story like this?

Jaylyn... humping each other? no I missed that part. was that on the wikipedia page, cause I would trust that I used that as a starter page. you are right that his bother didn't do much better, but I think he was also effected by the situation. more or less I am thinking when you force someone to be someone they are not the end does not turn out well.

[Belle Cri]

Why yes, mine. I am all too familiar with this particular story. In my belief, gender is an abstract and external concept. I grew up having to fight my own family for this right. I did not suffer such humiliating physical treatment, but the emotional treatment is equally severe.

[Robin414]

I read about this case, happened in Winnipeg I think but I don't know of the current status but I think I happened some time ago, anyone know what the current status of the 'forced TG' twin is?

Wow, I just saw the video and I see!!! Guess nature trumps all (but we kinda knew that I guess) 😯

[Jaylyn]

Yes it was on the Wiki page you posted. Open it and the hit the history for the rest of the story. A lot there.

[Victoria Demeanor]

Yes Jaylyn I love wiki to start off with, but since everyone can edit it I use it as a spring board to other article when studding a story. As sad as this story is I really found this fascinating as to n ow strong nature is. It is a little backwards from what we normal talk about, but when your inner soul tell you who you are you have to listen.
Anyways I have always thought this is more about nature and I think this is more proof.
Sometimes_miss: I'm not ignoring you, I am checking out the video and studying it. forgive me I'm old and slow.

[pamela7]

okay, read it, and I could write essays, even a book on this subject anyway!
I believe that for thousands of years the ancient civilisations in Turkey and near East lived in population balance, harmony with nature. They live in towns/cities with egalitarian housing, no temples, no palaces; this is like for 5000 years plus. The suddenly things change, the shift arrives and civilisation becomes sick, which it still is, growth-oriented and out of control in terms of population at least.

One part of the answer I have is that, before 3000 BC, society was polyamorous, with homosexuality and lesbianism the predominant forms of intercourse, with hetero reserved solely for planned procreation (and during pregnancy). This would have kept the urges met, the population in harmony, and children raised communally. The distortion is the marriage "the one ring to bind the others in darkness" literally.

So for me, nature is polyamorous and bisexual, nurture forces hetero upon society and that's what every disney film etc affirms.

xxx

PS, as to the OP about being forced to live the wrong gender, of course its wrong!

[sometimes_miss]

anyone know what the current status of the 'forced TG' twin is?

He died in 2004. Suicide.

Guess nature trumps all

Nope.

[Robin414]

OMG, that's horrible 😢

[Krisi]

That's a horrible story and I feel sorry for both twins but it's not sufficient basis for any scientific finding. A study of one set of twins means nothing and the fact that the other twin died of drugs suggests that there were problems in the upbringing of both of them.

I don't know about back then, but something like that today would bring a multi million dollar lawsuit against the doctor and anyone else who participated.

[Laura912]

There are several tragedies in all this but the greatest is that of John Money who thought he was doing good, published his findings on just one case and implied that this was the was to managed this problem. As a retired medical professor, I am absolutely incensed about this. The twins were wasted because of this person's behavior. It is an absolute tradegy that no one else was monitoring the care or lack thereof in this case. Will stop now.