Cross gender/Transgender

[Jazzy Jaz]

Although many of us don't need labels for ourselves and we can each define ourselves how we choose, I do see value in labels for education, understanding, and communication purposes. Lesbian, gay, and bi sexual are all labels and in my opinion they are clear and for the public its relatively simple to understand what each one means. Also terms can be helpful for less self understanding people who are looking to understand thier identity and are seeking to find and relate to people with similiar experiences. I think transgender is an excellent umbrella term and the reason its being portrayed in the media as only encompassing ts is because nobody from the rest of the spectrum is visible and out there clarifying as far as famous people anyway. Its like having the term "beer" and if budwieser is the only company advertising then soon everyone starts to think beer is budwieser. In order for that to change then coors, labatt, corona and all the rest have to come out and say "hey, I'm beer too". Its easier said than done and I am only slowly coming out but if some of us feel that we fall under this term and want to be recognized as such then we have to claim it.

[Dana44]

gendermutt, Ah, CD or TG. same thing. I don't agree on the ones who does not want to change into a full women. MY Hormones are female. I'm in a male body that has full operation of the female brain side as well as full operation of the male side. Now, growing, it was strange being a boy. Then a man. One nurse I knew said that one should never have an operation to remove anything. You were born with it and what you have serves you well.
Now I sometimes wake up totally female and dreamed as I'm female. Other days I wake up totally male. I walked through life like this in mostly male clothes. Doing fem clothes is rad. But hoot this girly man will stay that way no matter what. Even if I dressed female for a long time I would come back to male. So yes we do have strong gender identity issues. But being male does not freak us out as well as being female doesn't freak us out. We are caught in a strange relationship with ourselves and hoot I can wake up girly for an expended period of time. Yet the male calls us back. It is a tough cycle.

[susan54]

I do not care too much for labels but they can be useful for other people. I go out dressed as a woman, walking like a woman, smelling like a woman and (almost) talking like a woman. But I am not one, even temporarily. I love wearing skirts and dresses and it is easier to do in public if you look like a woman and are perceived as one (except close up). When people demand a label I say I am a gender tourist. I am like someone who loves France, goes there frequently, loves French food, speaks French, and loves people thinking I am French but I do not think I really am French or want to live there or become a French citizen. I do not regard myself as transgender.

[Samantha Clark]

I am a gender tourist. I am like someone who loves France ... I do not regard myself as transgender.

Me too! Love the tourist metaphor. Fits well. Oui! Vive la différance!

[Tina_gm]

Dana, I am in agreement with you, but many on here even do not. And now with sudden public awareness and the tg term getting thrown through the media with those who live and identify as the opposite of birth gender. We in the community have it figured out well, with TG and CD, TS, but the public doesn't is only hearing and interested in TG with those who fully identify as opposite. It was Caitlin also who sort of marginalized crossdressers as well in her big coming out interview. It just gets tricky for a lot of us here, who like you and I, who have strong feminine gender but are not full opposite identifiers. Wives, family, friends, or anyone in particular will tend to think, hmmm what you are is more than a CDer, which is fine so then we get considered more of full identifiers, and many in the TS side want to be fully distinguished as female, not as gender something else, or whatever. I just am seeing this as a side effect of the recent attention from the media and of the public in general. There definitely is a rise in acceptance, but not necessarily a rise in understanding all of it.

[Saikotsu]

It's tough for people who are not in the thick of it to really understand what it means. This is why people need labels. A label is the first step in understanding. We do it unconsciously, and we do it often. Male, female, gay, straight, Asian, African, European, young, old, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, etc.
When people are trying to understand something, they try to fit it into categories they're familiar with, so they can pull from their experences. Like it or not, labels are always going to be around. So isn't it better to own a label and define it than to let it own and define you? I think its important for us as a community to discuss labels and find ones we're comfortable with. I know it can get frustrating trying to come to a consensus. It might even be impossible. But if we can't even find a way to define ourselves, how can we expect others to do it for us?
I think we each need to figure out our own contexts, and then educate people as best we can. Let them know that just because I am x and define myself as such, that someone else might define themselves differently. We are all individuals. No single term will encompass all of us. But its a start

[Tina_gm]

Great points Saikotsu, and why I started this thread is because the definitions in very recent times (months really) are changing due to recent increased media and general public exposure and awareness. Like it or not, until very recently, most people never put any difference between trans and gay, which is why the most common question one will get asked when we tell someone is..... "are you gay?" Or "do you like men?" So now in nearly a blink of the eye, the media and the general public is becoming aware that trans and gay or not one in the same.

In so doing though, there is I believe some info being lost through translation. The media, and the general public are focusing transgender only on what we on here think of as TS. Yet, in the community itself, we have made a broad definition of transgender to cover "just a crossdresser"

I promise that it is not really me who is thinking we need to label, need more or change the labels, but they are being changed on us just a bit.

[Mayo]

I'll concede that CDers are on the fuzzy edge of the TG label, and it's fuzzy precisely because nobody can quite agree on the definition. Are we talking about identity? Then no, maybe they aren't 'really' TG. Are we talking about expression? Then, yeah, sure they are.

My personal feeling is that CDers (and drag performers) should be included under the 'TG umbrella' because to 'outsiders' they are obviously transgressing traditional gender boundaries, whether or not their self-declared identities do, which potentially exposes them to some of the same prejudices and risks that are also experienced by other gender-variant people. It is better for us to be supportive of their particular modes of gender-bending rather than policing people who might benefit by being part of the larger community and telling them "Oh, you don't qualify so get out of here". It's the same inclusivity that says LGBT really means LGBTTQQIAA+ (and in respect of which I'll parenthetically note that the 'gay community' does have a history of denying or excluding bisexual and transgender people even though they are explicitly included in 'LGBT', which is something that should not be happening).

Now, if a particular CDer doesn't want to be called TG, for whatever reason, they need simply say "Thanks, but I'm a man who just likes to dress in women's clothes and I have no gender issues at all."

[Ezekiel]

Anything that goes against the gender norms and social conventions is Transgender.

Call yourself a man, woman, whatever, but if you go against whats established for each gender, you are transgreding, and its about gender (be it clothes, identity, again whatever), thus, you are Trans (transgressor) Gender (whatever it may mean to you: clothes, identity, nonbinary, etc).

[ReineD]

Gendermutt, just say what you do if you want to explain it to someone. If you work on it I bet you can do so in under 25 words, it will take less than 10 seconds to articulate. Don't worry about labels, everyone has their own definitions for them anyway. lol

Even the terms "transsexual" or "woman" cannot be agreed upon to many people in this community.

[susan54]

I very rarely write anything directly contradicting someone on this forum, but I am going to do so in respect of Ezsekiel's post. I accept that other people want labels but that does not mean I needd to accept the label. I am not trans anything. Cross-dressing yes, transgender no. Gender goes beyond clothes, it is about self-image. I do not go there - I love how I look in a dress but that does not change the fact I am a man. I retain my masculinity throughout. OK, I admit the bra and breast forms are non-masculine, but for me this is about clothes, and it has to be admitted that the clothes look better with a bust. My gender remains male so by definition it is not trans. When I go out I act as a woman, but it is ACTING - I do not imagine I am a woman. I am not going to give in on this one - I am simply a bloke dressing up and play-acting. That I am good at it is immaterial - it does not make me trans - it just means I am a good actor.

[Ezekiel]

I very rarely write anything directly contradicting someone on this forum, but I am going to do so in respect of Ezsekiel's post. I accept that other people want labels but that does not mean I needd to accept the label. I am not trans anything.

My god... did you even read my posts? Read them again please... I never said transgender meant you weren't a man or something different, I even stated that I AM A MAN numerous times yet I define as Transgender, and I am not going to repeat myself, read my posts WELL and do not simply SCAN OVER them like you did.

You can be a man, a bloke, a dude whatever word you want for it, yet be transgender, because you are transgreding societal norms when you crossdress, as in society's view, the clothes you use are ment for women (heck you even use forms)... read the posts adequately please.

[susan54]

Anything that goes against the gender norms and social conventions is Transgender.

Call yourself a man, woman, whatever, but if you go against whats established for each gender, you are transgreding, and its about gender (be it clothes, identity, again whatever), thus, you are Trans (transgressor) Gender (whatever it may mean to you: clothes, identity, nonbinary, etc).

Yup. Read it again. It still makes out I am trans[whatever]. I still disagree. An actor in costume is play-acting, not adopting the persona seriously. I am acting, and even then only do the walk and talk in public. At home I am wearing clothes I like that feel nice and look nice. A woman in a male shirt, suit and tie could also look good and would not on this basis alone be trans-anything. The people I interact with love the fact I am a man and love my outfits - and for the most part I am treated as a man. So for the people I interact with there is no binary or trans anything. If you insist on trans titles you perpetuate the binary that us mere cross-dressers (fine with that label) are attempting to break down. I am free to reject labels applied to me by others in the same way I am free to wear what I want. If you insist on applying a label to me I reject I can't stop you but I am not going to agree with you. I don't even know why I am writing this - we are not going to persuade each other and that does not matter in the great scheme of things.

[Katey888]

...I don't even know why I am writing this - we are not going to persuade each other and that does not matter in the great scheme of things.

Susan - whatever you may think I don't believe this is always about persuading each other all the time - clearly that's impractical with such a diverse population with differing environments, values and beliefs. Sometimes it's just about being prepared to describe what we feel and do in order that others can identify with that and feel that they're not alone in what they feel and do. I think you've done that just fine here.

Quite a while ago I'd thought that motivation plays a big part in the 'why' of what we do... You describe yourself as an actor (that might make you a Drag Artist as distinct from 'Queen', not being gay, if we should have a distinction) which many others who have posted in the 'Just a Crossdresser' thread may well align with. In fact, I would probably also align with many aspects of what you and others say about how you express yourself - I assume your Artistic expression goes to a full transform with wig, makeup, etc.

It becomes more complex if you are prepared to go beyond the simplistic 'I do this because it's fun and I don't care why' (You don't need to read further if you feel this way... ). Gender expression in Western society is deliberately different and is not always just clothing - it is primarily about gender and the physical differences, but it can also be about sexuality, status, exhibitionism. Many of the clothing styles that we adopt often incorporate these aspects. My take on this is when I ask myself the question: "Why do I feel comfortable doing something that for 99% of men would be at least embarrassing and possibly completely abhorrent.." is that something drives me to that - otherwise I would choose to do something that was less socially stigmatised, less risky for my family and more acceptable to the muggles (normals). Perhaps you and others are just frustrated thespians and this is your outlet - but I can't help thinking that amateur dramatics would yield more variety and be more rewarding if it was just about developing a particular persona.

I don't believe the 'trans' or TG umbrella perpetuates binaries - far from it. I think the idea that being part of a TG spectrum with a range of expressions and needs stresses how much gender is not a binary and how far we all transgress the very normal social norms of expression in what we do, regardless of what we choose to call ourselves or accept how the rest of society will categorise us anyway...

If these discussions help everyone feel included somewhere in our community - then that has to be a Good Thing.

Katey x

[Ezekiel]

A woman in a male shirt, suit and tie could also look good and would not on this basis alone be trans-anything.

Its socially accepted that women dress that way, so yes you are right, thats not trans-anything, but its not trans-anything because it does not make a transgression to the norm. We, males who crossdress, on the other hand, do break the rules, thus it is a transgression.

I am a transgressor, and in my view, you are too, and in the view of society.

The people I interact with love the fact I am a man and love my outfits - and for the most part I am treated as a man.

I am treated as man too, because I state that my identity is male, always. I never went out much, probably when I manage to stabilize my economical situation I will start, but I can guarantee that I will be treated as a man because I do not wish for anything else. Yet... I am Transgender, can't deny it.

So for the people I interact with there is no binary or trans anything. If you insist on trans titles you perpetuate the binary that us mere cross-dressers (fine with that label) are attempting to break down.

Transgender label is anything but binary. Inside the Transgender term you get male, female, bi-gender, genderfluid, genderqueer...

Transgender goes against binaries in all senses. And Im not trying to break down your terms, not my intention nor anyone else here, us that defend the Transgender term, all we are attempting and want is to explain what Transgender actually means, which is far from what the media defines, and why you can be considered Transgender.

I am free to reject labels applied to me by others in the same way I am free to wear what I want.

We are explaining why you can be considered Transgender, If you wish to be considered so of course, we are not to enforce anything but explain what the term actually entails.

But as I understand it, those who consider themselves Transgender and understand what it means, are the ones willing to stand for the whole community, the ones who are fighting for a common cause that affects us all (yes, crossdressers too). Those who reject term... well... no need to comment here.

If you insist on applying a label to me I reject I can't stop you but I am not going to agree with you.

No, I don't insist, but I do insist on explaining things. Reject whatever you want, you are free to do so, but dividing the community only weakens it, keep this in mind.

I don't even know why I am writing this - we are not going to persuade each other and that does not matter in the great scheme of things.

Again, I do not wish to persuade you, only to make a statement. Together we are strong against the tide, divided, we will suffer. In the end, the decision to unite is yours, but you know what the common cause is and its banner, Transgender.

And oh yes, everything matters in the great scheme of things, even the smallest detail.

[susan54]

I have done some more thinking on this one. Why am I happy with the term 'cross-dresser' but not trans-anything? I think it is less loaded as a description, and I accept the right of society to describe my behaviour. I do not regard public wearing of women's clothes as transgressive because that would suggest there is a rule. In most countries including mine there is no rule, just a convention. It is a strong convention, but it is very interesting how little resistance there is to those of us who do not follow it. But I do not live in Bible Belt America. I have hardly ever worn a wig or make-up unless going out, and I am less and less happy about going out because I feel I have to wear both. I have gone out wearing what could almost be described as stealth womenswear right through to fully presenting, but for me it is mainly about skirts and dresses when dressed up. Part of the reason I no longer want to go out is that I do not want to portray myself as a woman. I genuinely hate make-up (except lipstick)and wigs - the freedom of a skirt is offset by the horrible feel of a wig. So now I am happy dressing in solitude at home and exploring my lovely, extensive wardrobe, going out for specific reasons rather than for its own sake (eg one of my very favourite shops is owned by a lady who is much, much friendlier to me when I am fully dressed, making the shopping more enjoyable for both of us). Also I concede that some of the people I interact with love looking at my outfits and prefer the all-out look - and so like their feedback more. Me as a Drag Queen? That is quite funny. My look is classy, elegant and very co-ordinated, emulating the best-dressed women, not mocking femininity. Most of the clothes are plain and there are no frills and very little lace. I have acted on stage and I love the buzz but it requires a regular commitment that is incompatible with my work.

As I get older I get more confident about moving beyond conventions. Another reason I have pulled back a bit is that I am increasingly recognised for professional achievements and I want people to remember me for these not for what I wear. And one of the reasons they would remember me wearing a skirt is because of the blurring of all the trans stuff into one. I was inspired to go out in public by a man I saw wearing a skirt in a supermarket car park in a small town. This was the only aspect of him that was unconventional I think every time we do something in public we spread a little influence, whether it is one item or the whole look. We need to get to a stage were it is as normal for a man to wear a skirt as a woman to wear trousers and trans labels inhibit at least this cross-dresser - I think it helps everyone if society accepts that changing your clothes does not lead to any association that you are changing your gender. It is not that there is anything wrong with changing your gender but it is more difficult for people to deal with people breaking with the biological convention than the sartorial one

[Ezekiel]

We need to get to a stage were it is as normal for a man to wear a skirt as a woman to wear trousers and trans labels inhibit at least this cross-dresser - I think it helps everyone if society accepts that changing your clothes does not lead to any association that you are changing your gender.

Exactly, but we can only manage this together, and this is the great WHY, why we need to define the term Transgender as it is, and not as what people thinks of it because of the media.

We are the ones that can explain well what Transgender means, and it is our responsability to do so.

I crossdress totally: wig, makeup, except breast forms, and while I attempt to look like a woman because I am in deep love with that look (for whatever reason that might be), I am not changing gender when I do this. And I, like you, do not want to be perceived as I am changing genders.

I'm male, no matter how I look, that is the hardwired identity of mind (soul, or whatever). And I'm Transgender, because I'm out of the societal expectations for gender.

As I see it, Transgender is the term for an era. In the future, when we have already won all our rights and defined how things are, the term will be rarely used I believe, because you'll just be a woman, man or whatever your identity is, and nothing else will have to be explained, as nothing else will be questioned.

But right now, Transgender covers us all, and is the flag we can carry with pride towards our victory, together. You can stand by it, or not, that is ultimately, your decision.

[Samantha_Smile]

At the risk of wading in on another thread about labels, I'll still throw my 2c in.

I really think that this is down to individual perception of the word 'transgender' and lack of understanding that it's an umbrella term for a wide range of people.
I'm a crossdresser. But that's just what I say, it fits me fine. I have no desire to become a girl full time, get surgery or legally change my name.
But I am aware that some people will call me a transvestite. And that's fine too.
Some people may even label me transgender... Also totally fine with me.
Do I refer to myself as transgender? No. But not because I believe it to mean 'transexual' - it's more to do with lack of specifics.

The only similar situation I can think of right now that serves as a comparison is Autism. Now referred to as Autism Spectrum disorder.
There are a great many diagnoses under ASD, but most people who don't know enough about it simply say 'Autism', where Asperger's or other specific would be more appropriate when referring to an individual rather than a group.

Which leads me to another point.
Transgender is fine if you are referring to a group of us, because no two of us are the same.
But on an individual level, I feel it is better to ask for individual opinion and choice of term.

Hope I made sense

xx

[Tracy Hazel Lee]

I don't care how many people misuse the word, or how the media portrays it. Just because the term seems to be moving toward implying transition, doesn't make it correct. Someone who is transitioning is indeed transgender, but I will not use the word to solely describe someone transitioning. I would use the word transitioning!

If you don't like how people are using the word, correct them. What the hell is the point of defining words and their usage if people can just make up their own definitions?

[Ezekiel]

Which leads me to another point.
Transgender is fine if you are referring to a group of us, because no two of us are the same.
But on an individual level, I feel it is better to ask for individual opinion and choice of term.

Hope I made sense

It is better to ask of course, always, and yes you made sense in your post, nothing to comment about it, except to add that if we are to fight for our rights, Transgender is the term we have to use and to explain it well.

If you don't like how people are using the word, correct them.

Basically, the only productive way of stopping the nosense and confusion. So right Tracy...

[sometimes_miss]

Her two suggested definitions were; dysphorics and non dysphorics which I think seems like a nice little way to tidy up that mess.

But not all dysphorics transition, either.

As often as we lament the use of labelling I think when you know what label you are it's easier to move on

Even once 'labeled', there still remains the question of what you will or will not do about it. And there are so many people who don't even know what they are because they have yet to accept the possibility that they may be something that they do not consider acceptable under any conditions.

[Jazzy Jaz]

Although i am generally comfortable in my male body i do have sporadic mild dysphoria and sometimes genuinely wish i was born in a womans body. I think dysphoric and non-dysphoric are two ends of a spectrum with a definite grey area in between.

[Lacey New]

I happen to agree with Gendermutt that I think a certain stereotype is being created around the term "transgender" and largely due to the now famous Caitlyn. Quite frankly, I really don't care - a label is simply that. What I do care about is that society starts to recognize that we are in different places in the spectrum and that there are a whole bunch of us who have no desire to live as a member of the opposite gender and that we just want to dress up every now and then. Some retailers, like Dress Barn and Her Room seem to get it - we just need to see more accommodation like that. The more we spend, the more we respond to surveys, review clothing, make-up, services etc., then I think at least our purchasing power will get recognized. And the world can call us whatever they want to.

[Angela Marie]

Everyone is different and to try to apply a "one size fits all" will invariably engender confusion, anger, etc. I started out as what one would call a crossdresser. But in my case it spoke to a much more intense, although repressed, feminine side which I have finally accepted and frankly prefer. But at this point, at least from my perspective, who cares. I'm more and more comfortable in my feminine side and see no reason to label myself. If others choose to do so, fine. But at this point it makes no difference to me.