i relate very much...Originally Posted by emma5410
I think that is a really great question.
i relate very much...
I think that is a really great question.
Last edited by arbon; 08-24-2015 at 12:24 PM.
Hmmmmm . . . .
Finances are important, but I would argue not the "most" important. Surgeries, simply put, are a means to an end. As is stated around here all the time - and rightfully so - everybody is different. Before one even gets to the issue of finances and paying for these things, though, IMO, I think it's more important to really figure out just exactly who you are and exactly what you need to give yourself the opportunity to move forward into a viable, doable future. If one does not need surgeries, then that's great, and finances are not an issue. If such things are indeed necessary, however, then it's time to put your game face on, devise a plan as to how to accomplish these things, then get to work to make them happen. But there is a lot to be done, much to be considered, and tons of self-data to be analyzed before even getting (in earnest) to this point . . . .
It's circular reasoning. The answer is still that it depends upon what their GD is focused. If it's presenting their identity only or primarily, then what is reflected back just may not matter. Integration is all, will protest some. Not so. There's enough anecdotal information out there for me that some people who are FIRMLY cross-sex identified but not passable are, nonethless, happy post-transition without FFS. The fact that they stepped off the cliff (transition) is sufficient for me and the fact that they figuratively landed on a comfy outcrop 3 feet down and which perhaps they couldn't see anyway, is effectively irrelevant.
Twist things a bit and consider other scenarios. What of a naturally feminine, male-at-birth person, cross-sex identified, who has always been gendered female (i.e., when presenting male)? No need to transition, right? Wrong. What if they transitioned and still wanted FFS? It must not have anything to do with GD, then, because they were already accepted as female, right? Wrong.
What you are and what you are prepared to accept from others are independent of one another. I'll confess to judging and disbelieving expressed identity in individual cases, but I accept yet others, too. Some people are just whacked. Others merely stretch my definitional norms. An example of the former that always comes to mind instantly is a person that shows up at support groups in a prissy dress, bobby-sox, cute little purse, and even white gloves ... with a full beard and gorilla-hairy legs. On the other hand I've met a fair number of people that are post-transition and not passable who were *clearly* cross-sex identified - and comfortable with their presentation. Finally, while some people really do get stuck in trans identity, I believe that most cross-sex identified people regard being trans as just an aspect (or perspective on) who they are, not an identity in itself.
Last edited by LeaP; 08-24-2015 at 01:15 PM. Reason: Added cite after cross-posting with Anne
Lea
I wonder if Anne realizes how much some of us "look up" to her
hee hee
All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?
this is a fundamental mischaracterization of some of the "blunt" talk...
Nobody is belittling anybody .. and the word "choosing" in choosing a different approach is meaningful because so many of us felt the pain of loosing the ability to "choose" anything, and most of us spent alot of time thinking we could choose...
I'm truly sorry if something i say makes another person feel bad, but i have to share my experience, and the large amount of observation of people that had GD....
at the end of it all, we all can hopefully have the personal strength to live our best quality of life...whether its transition or not... but you can't go around saying transition or RLE is something that its not... you can no more say your choice to not transition is viable for another than i can say your only choice is transition...
... we all traveled through the phase where it was under control... that doesnt mean it will get bad for you or others but unfortunately the majority of actual transsexuals end up at deeply suffering or transitioning
...that IS reality
...it doesn't reduce your experience, it clarifies it for what it is...
I agree with those who have observed that there's no effective way to measure dysphoria. Does falling into a habit of dwelling on your misfortunes make it worse? Or just increase the impact it has on your life? Chances are we each experience it differently, cope with it differently, and describe it differently.
Nor do I think amount of surgical intervention is a reliable measure of anything. These are very personal decisions made in light of economic circumstances as well as a genetic draw over which we have no control. Some can't be cleared due to a variety of conditions, others pass well enough without that they don't feel as much pressure to get work done. We all have our own insecurities and risk tolerances, and you can't begin to correct for all of that.
I've had one of the least invasive transitions I'm aware of. It's not that I don't occasionally ponder my options but I know that no matter how much I change there will always be some aspect of my appearance that I'm not entirely thrilled about. So I chose to draw the line at hair removal and HRT and get used to appreciating who I am and making the most of it. If I was constantly being misgendered I'm sure I'd feel very differently.
~ Kimberly
“To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard
Very true. Cis-women also get FFS too. Cis-women not only get facelifts, cheek implants, and other soft tissue work done on their faces, but cis-women may even have work done on their bone structure: jaw and chin. There is lots of pressure on women, whether cis or trans, to look our prettiest, because there is a privilege to being pretty and feminine vs a masculine looking woman. With us transwomen, we have a triple reason for FFS. We, like any other woman, feel the same pressure to be pretty. We also understand there is a privilege to passing and often feel it's necessary to pass. We also feel dysphoria over our masculine features.
So does it matter what your reasons for getting FFS are? Whether it's dysphoria, trying to pass, or looking prettier and more feminine, any woman, cis or trans, may consider some FFS. We may consider either soft tissue work or bone structure work.
So the transwoman in Lea's scenario who passes without transition may very well desire FFS to look even more feminine. She may desire a legal name and gender change, as her name and gender are still legally male. If she is young, should consider the possibility that she may be a "late bloomer". Testosterone doesn't stop working at 18, nor does it stop working at 25. Testosterone continually continues to masculinize male bodies throughout the entire course of their lifetime. A feminine looking male at the age of 21 may still end up looking more masculine at the age of 40 because of T. Oh, and even though she is being gendered female, she may wish to have bigger breasts or to have a vagina installed.
I agree. I am a woman before I am transgender. Being transgender is a means to achieving congruence. Being TS is my path to womanhood. In terms of my identities, I consider myself these in this order.
1. Human first
2. Alcoholic second
3. Woman third
4. Transgender fourth
I say this because, to me, we are all human beings before we are male or female, or any race, religion, or even an alcoholic. Society may not see it that way. But I do.
I consider myself an alcoholic second because I have to remember that I have an insiduous disease that can take me out at any moment. It was being sober and being completely honest with myself that allowed me to even think of seriously transitioning. Being sober has made my transition WAY less complicated than it could have been. If I were to drink, I would run into all sorts of problems that would complicate my transition, from getting not so good HRT results, or social problems. Drinking has cost me jobs in the past, and drinking can drastically increase my chances of becoming a victim of a hate crime. And drinking alone can ruin my health, and ultimately take my life. I owe everything I have in life to God and to the program of AA. I am not preaching by any means. This is simply how I feel personally.
I am a woman before being transgender because I identify as a binary woman born in a binary male body.
Any other identities I have are less important, and aren't listed.
I've finally mastered the art of making salads. My favorite is a delicious Mediterranean salad.
Telling a person that their ideas are invalid or wrong because they haven't:
1. Had surgery
2. Suffered as another person has
3. Lived full-time
4. Attempted suicide
5. Been discriminated against in a particular way
or had some other life experience is belittling.
We should be discussing the issues that we face. Attacking another's credibility achieves little except for driving away those who are too fragile to tolerate the drama.
Eryn, people come here for advice from and discussion with those who have experienced these things (among others). A perspective offered that some notion is wrong is a perfectly fair response, even when it conflicts with what someone else may offer. People choose whom to believe and why.
Credibility challenges (not "attacks") are also fair, particularly as it relates to the question of why you might find someone's advice risky or even applicable. I might challenge on perceived inconsistency in order to divine a unifying principle. I might challenge experience to question the description of consequences. Logic and correlation on a point of extensibility. And subjects like philosophy are always fair for vigorous debate and discussion, of course.
Last edited by LeaP; 08-26-2015 at 12:45 PM.
Lea
I don't know Eryn.
I do see some belittling (from me) when someone talks about not having money for hair removal because of their ball-gown budget. Also, getting told "what's what" about the female experience in society from someone who does not live full-time can be a little frustrating, but the stuff you talk about does not really happen. There may be nuances to some of the discourse and people understand things differently. I have seen heated arguments where people were not even talking about the same thing.
As for the very topic on hand, I have to admit that hair removal was primordial to relieve my GD, more than HRT and certainly more than SRS. I spent over $20,000 on hair removal and bankrupted myself in the process. Hair is what stopped me at 28 from transition, and what cost me a fortune at 39. I suppose that someone may feel the same about their brow ridge or adam's apple. I have neither. My features were naturally pedomorphic and female looking. My thing was being hairier than a monkey.
Last edited by Frances; 08-26-2015 at 01:15 PM.
It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.
Excellent post Frances. Excellent points.
...and it's very interesting to learn that you had such a formidable physical challenge. This is why I love this forum, because years ago, we had some Skype chats and I was literally confounded by how beautiful you were. Since then, I've always sort of considered you to be one of the genetically gifted. As it turns out, you are, but you still had to deal with an issue that I would consider to be horrifying and because of that, I admire you even more.
Thank you for your honesty.
This is the kind of shit I keep talking about. This is what separates the dreamers from the authentic. It's the honesty folks.
Which brings me back to the procedures. We do these things to remove impediments to our authenticity. Some of us, like Frances are small and beautiful with perhaps a bit of body hair. Some of us are averaged sized athletically built dudes with big dude faces. I needed surgery to give me a fighting chance at a decent quality of life. Gender is a lived experience after all.
You hit it spot on. The reality is that I have also faced belittling from other people in the transgender community. This is by no means a requirement to be "legit" as trans, nor does having experienced it negate my experience. But the reality is that the worst treatment can come from within our own community at times. I can certainly attest to that.
The drama can be very difficult to face. It's sad that we face potential drama from the outside world. But to have to receive it from within the community really sickens me.
I've finally mastered the art of making salads. My favorite is a delicious Mediterranean salad.
Credibility is important, though. When someone shows up with zero posts and no photos, and spouts out major opinions, it can be annoying. There have been sock puppets too on the forum.
I don't care about genitals and wether someone goes through HRT or removes their hair or whatever. There is no part of the physical transformation that establishes credibility in my eyes. I know some that care about this stuff very much, but I don't. Like I said in another post, SRS does not matter if you don't pass. And not passing is not a reason to not transition. If the itensity is there, social transition will occur. That's where I draw the line. A man can get SRS and still live as a man. There is nothing wrong with that, but a social transition is out in the open. There is no hiding, and there is no take back. It's hard to take advice from someone hiding out of range.
Not just a bit, Melissa. We are talking back and front, hands, shoulders, perma-beard, the whole thing.
It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.
Back to the OP, it does seem that there is definitely not any correlation between procedures and severity of GD. As one or two have pointed out, how do you measure GD? Is there any difference between those who suffered early on in life and those of us who had late onset?
Thanks for the replies everyone
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
I am not sure I get the nuance here, but intensity increased in correlation with my aging and then masculinization of my body (from testosterone over time). I was trans as a teen and met doctors about it, but I was so soft looking that I could keep it in check. It's when the image in the mirror started diverging from my mental image of myself that my disphoria went all out. Ironically, transition cost more at that point because of the increase in body and facial hair. I had made harder for myself by delaying it.
So, in my case, there was a correlation between itensity and the need to alter my body (the hair) with the passing of time. 39 is the furthest I got before something had to change.
It's Frances with an E, like Frances Farmer. Francis is a man's name.
There are always exceptions Frances, however, at least on this forum, there appears to be no correlation as a general rule, maybe I should have said that in my initial response
Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said
The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another
I have to agree about electrolysis. I'm coming up on 3 years at 2 hours per week and I try not to think about the cost. It is the one thing that really makes everything else possible.
I strongly disagree with the concept that one has to be full time to have a notion of what is involved. I know people who are full time, but so cocooned in the LGBT community that they have never faced issues common in the mainstream. I know part-timers who have integrated well with society in female mode. They are accepted and acknowledged as their desired gender despite having to present as male occasionally to meet their family obligations. Having to move back and forth gives them great knowledge and insights that are valuable to anyone.
Regarding credibility attacks, the people most vulnerable are those who actually discuss their lives. I write about what I do because I consider it to be supportive of those who come here in search of information. Anyone who is interested can follow my journey through my posts here. Unfortunately, this is also fodder for those who attack because, given enough information, it is easy to take individual items out of context.
Ironically, some of the people quickest to attack the credibility of others are very close-mouthed about their own lives.
If late onset means there was no conflict and it suddenly appeared than I wonder if there is such a thing.
There seems to be many ways people cope with GD even before they know it is GD they are coping with.
Manning up , addiction and suicide may never be connected to GD but were all driven by GD. Late onset may be instead called "late realization" which comes out of the coping methods used to the degree they were successful until critical mass was reached. Getting married and having children could easily be a way to cope with GD (suppressing the authentic know self as gender identity) until everything falls apart later.
I had poor coping devices so could not push down the identity but if things had been different perhaps I would have a different outcome.
It is very difficult to know ones gender identity in the purely abstract but in my opinion an aspect of GD is that ones gender identity is still trapped in the abstract (not made real)
It becomes a paradoxical trap of suffering from that which cannot be named because it cannot be experienced. A perfect recipe for creating mental illness in my opinion which further takes one down the rabbit hole and farther from their actual gender identity.
Through transitioning you move from the abstract unreal to the concrete real as "ones gender" making it physical and livable so now "knowable" (I am this) beyond the abstract uncertainty that has it's own persistent realness.
To the degree the body "one is born with" impedes this movement as the movement needed by the individual it than "influences the intensity" of GD
I like my height, musculature (what's left of it) and bone structure. Acceptance of what you can accept is in my eyes part of being authentic so you do not turn yourself into a cookie cutter version of an idealized image but instead discover that core image that was always there. I did not experience it as a compromise because for me "it was wanted"
Looking inward to find the woman inside instead of trying to become one garnered from what you have seen in others. I personally think this image has always been there in all TS women because it is this that partially drives the need to transition (become) as this knowing.
Transitioning brings this internalized image outward and this is very personal and unique to each person.
What causes suffering for one, may not be an issue at all for another. I was puzzled by my needs in some ways because I did not need/want what others needed/wanted such as being petite or large busted. Two things I most definitely did not want because it ran contrary to my internalized image of myself as to "how I was meant to be"
In my opinion it is wise to put blinders on concerning what others are doing or risk becoming confused. Mislead by the eyes when it is the inner eye that should be used to discover ones hidden gender image (female form) that was there since the early years of life.
Last edited by KellyJameson; 08-26-2015 at 08:02 PM.
The Psychology of Conformity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARGczzoPASo
Mars brain, Venus brain: John Gray at TEDxBend
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuM7ZS7nodk
I think I would be one of those that is quick to address credibility, and I don't think there's anything I haven't shared. People in this forum probably know more about me than any single person in my life.
So your premise is immediately flawed.
I strongly disagree that you can know with any sense of true accuracy what it's actually like to be me or any other here who have transitioned, gone fulltime, and blasted past that line of no return.
You *can't* know because you haven't experienced it. It's that simple. It's that cut and dry.
And you will never truly know and fully understand what it is like unless and until you actually fully transition yourself. Then and only then can you say you know and understand what it's like to be on the other side of the fence.
But hey, that's true of most experiences in life. Just the same as I don't know and can't fully appreciate what it's like to really be an astronaut. I could read all the personal narratives and do all the research in the world, but that's no proper substitute for the experience itself.
You gotta live it to know it.
In the absence of true, legitimate, real life experience, you engage in nothing more than conjecture and speculation when you write about these things.
To cite other transsexual's lives and experiences as you have to bolster your argument that you are in the know and that experience itself is overrated, you cannot gain true understanding and real comprehension by living vicariously through the life experiences of others.
Life just doesn't work that way.
Last edited by Anne2345; 08-26-2015 at 09:41 PM.
In theory perhaps but in practice? No, it really is different. My pre-transition experience was certainly useful and helped ease my social transition, but it didn't prepare me at all for a tremendous number of experiences that are unique to living full-time. Dealing with bad news, buying a car, applying for a job, going to a doctor when you're feeling so sick you can't stand the idea of putting on makeup, delivering a speech to an audience, and many, many more situations held their own challenges and rewards. As does waking up every day knowing that you are facing life as a woman and have done so for many years.
No full-timer can avoid these things given enough time. No part-timer experiences all of them, and I've never met any who have dealt with more than one or two.
~ Kimberly
“To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard
Same with me.
It's all out there for me.
Eryn what you call belittling is nothing more than people sharing their experience. Experience that you do not have.
And frankly that's ok. And frankly you can either accept that and deal with it constructively or feel like you are talked down to.
Your experience is important. It resonates with lots of people. It does not resonate with people that have suffered desperate destructive GD. That's just a simple fact
Add to that the older gals here had lots of years of less intense GD. We have been there. And we found out what can happen.
Feel free to disagree with any well-proven point you like, but it will not lend any credibility to those who challenge the proof.
I survived 5 months of living part-time - although at times it was difficult - but that gave me zero understanding of what it means to live my whole life all day and night as the woman I have always known myself to be.
As for whether those who question credibility are close-mouthed about their own experiences. Why do I need to shout from the roof-tops in here what can easily be found in nearly 16000 articles on the Net which take google less than half a second to find (admittedly I can only read some of them in translation because my German is nearly as bad as my Chinese).
Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.
This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any
Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist
Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity
I think you are getting rather worked up for the wrong reasons.
Your experiences and way of life is in no way belittled, there will be a lot of people in your position that will read your posts, relate and take strength. No one is saying it's not valid.
What is being said is you can't compare it to full-time, it's just not the same I'm sorry. It can come close.
Using an example of someone who changes back to a man for some family reason proves the point. When full-time you have to face everything there is no picking and choosing. It's that very choice that gives you a safety net.
Tell me, if two people walk across a tightrope over a canyon. One has a safety harness the other hasn't, would you say the experience is the same?
Your point about the fulltimer ensconced in the LGBT community carries some wait, I would say they are still holding onto their safety net too.
I've met those kind of people and you are correct, the ones I met seemed to still have identity issues.
Michelle, I think you are in a downward spiral currently and are way over thinking things which is not helping confidence.
If you look unsure of yourself people can pick up on that kind of body language. You need to stop worrying and take action, I think the name change doesn't help it undermines your self belief, you may not get asked for your license often but the worry will sit there in your gut. Knowing your ID matches gives some strength.
You will end up picking yourself to pieces, try concentrating on what you are doing right and take action on the others.
Sort out your name change issues, be decisive.
Go get some FFS consultations, take pictures and email the surgeons, the feed back can steer you towards what is a problem and what isn't.
It's hard asking people you know, I don't want to hurt your feelings and also I don't really know. The FFS surgeons are experts, they will see your face in measurements, if you think FFS is what you need to move on, start saving.
Show me a picture of what you would wear to the mall and I will be honest, remember it's only my opinion though.
I suffer from low self esteem, it takes work, pinpoint the problems and fix what you can.
Last edited by becky77; 08-27-2015 at 02:38 AM.
To address your question to some extent at least, Nigella, I'd say this: I think I may be an unusual transperson who demonstrates how difficult it is to measure GD. These days I always feel GD, and sometimes quite keenly, but if other transpeople were to observe me, they might get the impression I don't feel it at all. Keenly-felt GD often drives people to action; but ironically, I suppose, at this stage of my life, it's driven me to inaction in certain ways.
I'm out full-time almost three years now: still no electrolysis, no FFS, no HRT, no surgery--and the longer that time goes on, the less likely it looks that I'll ever do any of that. It's hard for me to be honest with myself, I think. I repressed my GD for so long that perhaps in a sense I'm still doing that. Maybe I'm trying to tell myself I don't really care when in fact I do. So maybe I don't overtly show any GD because I'm still repressing it in ways.
On the other hand, I have a simple, deep acceptance of the fact that I should have been born with a female body. It's a fact that fills me with despair, but after all these years (most of which I spent repressing that knowledge), I've simply come to a quiet acceptance of the fact. It's not just the right sort of body I missed out on; I also missed out on the life that body would have allowed me to live. And I'm not going to get that life now, nothing close to it. Far too many years have gone by. So I ask myself the question, What's the point of doing things that aren't going to come close to giving me what I want?
As it is, all in all, I'm happy enough these days. I'm living the way I want, and that has helped my outlook tremendously. I'm not ruling out anything in principle. If my feelings in these matters change, then I'll do what I think is appropriate.
Posting Permissions
