Who-I-am vs. What-I-like

[Eryn]

Jasmine makes a good point. Many of us aren't at the extreme ends of the binary, but live somewhere in the middle. Many of us had to push through a lot of conditioning and self-loathing to finally accept accept "who I am." and that target shifted as we explored and became more comfortable with out situation.

For me, "who I am" turned out to be a *lot* more involved than simply liking the clothes, yet I don't have the "transition or die" urgency of some. I'm simply Eryn, finding my place on the TG teeter-totter with the help of my family and friends.

[AngelaYVR]

I must admit that I'm a little surprised that someone who has racked up nearly 20,000 posts over 8 years still doesn't understand us.

For me, when the clothes go on so does the girl. I'm not walking around thinking "hehe, what a lark this is", I expect to be treated like a woman because that is how I feel at the time. I am a heavily invested cross dresser. I'm also very happy with where I am and realise how lucky I am to be able to express whichever side is the strongest that day. Best of both worlds.

[Zylia]

Is it wrong to say "I play a lot of video games because it's who I am"? At what point does something you passionately like become part of your identity? What does being 'something' actually mean? How do you define the things we are? Are we assessing the value of definite statements in a non-scientific context and why?

[ReineD]

Angela ... do you know Plato's Allegory of the Cave? It's impossible for someone who only knows one way of being (non-fluctuating gender), to know and therefore understand another's (fluctuating gender or non-fluctuating opposite-sex). This doesn't mean that I do not accept and fully support.

So when a MtF who is dressed as a woman identifies as one, it is difficult to know how permanent this is. Are they TS? CD? Planning to transition? Or not? Do they also identify as a man?

Edit
Zilia ... I was just wanting to figure out if the person who says "this is who I am" while presenting as a woman would like to or is planning to transition. Keep in mind that when people post, I have no way of knowing how they live. Are they full time? Do they dress once per month and plan on keeping it that way?

Also I agree we are many other things too, but they're all built on top of gender ID which is foundational, isn't it? And we cannot establish a scientific context here. My only recourse is to ask questions to the wind.

[Zylia]

[...] they're all built on top of gender ID which is foundational, isn't it?

Is it? When does this gender ID come to be? In utero? If it's foundational, does that mean it cannot change? Why not?

[ReineD]

I mean it is a core part of who we are. More than how much we like to play videos.

I don't know if it can change. You mean over a lifetime, or hour by hour. Most people have a stable gender ID don't they? I'm assuming that if someone says they identify as a woman, then they feel they are one. Like me. Like transitioning or transitioned MtF TSs. If the person experiences fluctuating gender ID (feeling like a woman for an hour or two days, and then feeling like a man), then presumably they have a memory of an hour or two days ago and they know that their feelings fluctuate. But this is not indicated in statements like "this is who I am". I was wondering what the "this" was.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I think for some its the fluctuation of gender that is the "this". I for the most part dont fluctuate, i am fairly steady in my gender balance so its just the mix of gender thats the "this" for me. Its like men are cold and women are hot. Im some variation of warm. Because im made up of both hot and cold i have access to both and can relate/feel like both. Although im steady sometimes i can feel more hot or more cold for whatever reason. On a hot day warm water can feel cool and on a cold day warm water can feel like a nice blanket. I dont know what its like to be scorching hot like women, but i also dont know what its like to be freezing cold like men, im just simply warm. This is who I am.

[Kate T]

I don't know if it can change. You mean over a lifetime, or hour by hour. Most people have a stable gender ID don't they?

I can't answer the original question as I would characterise myself as falling outside the terms of reference of the question. However I may be able to contribute some information to the statement above. There was some published research done, I can't remember the exact reference, that seemed to indicate that bigendered individuals actually had a shift in brain activity correlating to feeling either male or female. These shifts could occur daily and even multiple times a day but could also occur only infrequently. I can't remember the exact methodology but it must have been reasonable otherwise I would have forgotten it by now. So I guess there could be a biologic basis for the concept of a duality of gender.

[kimdl93]

Feelings...even how one sees oneself...can certainly change in the moment. I would guess that most emotional responses are situational, rather than a reflection of one's gender. I am certain that over the course of a day, there are few moments where daily activities, my thoughts or my behaviors are defined by gender as such. Isn't this true for everyone, TG or otherwise?

Maybe if pressed to define one's gender in a given moment, the answer would be different because the context might really not relate to gender at all.

[Rhonda Jean]

Reine, I'd like to turn this around on you, if you don't mind. My ex told me that having sex with me was like having sex with a woman, which she couldn't stand. Part of this was the obvious... Long hair, shaved body, nails, nighties, but even when I said I'd change all that, she said it wasn't just that. It was the way I was. Other than the obvious, it was like being with a woman.

I have no idea what she was talking about. This is one of those things like you talk about where a person of fluctuating gender just has no idea what it's like to be someone who's not. I had no idea that I did anything fundamentally different than any other male. Looked different, yes. Dressed different, yes. But fundamentally different? I don't get it. Maybe it was just impossible to ignore all the feminine trappings to the point that it got so solidly imprinted in her mind that she couldn't shake it. But, maybe I was/am just inexplicably different.

You're in a relationship with someone who has all the trappings of femininity, but apart from those things, is there a fundamental difference sleeping with a person of fluctuating gender? I was told over and over it's not just the clothes. I never got an answer to what else it might be.

[AngelaYVR]

Angela ... do you know Plato's Allegory of the Cave?

I do and it's not pertinent to this situation because we are not featureless shadows, you've been talking to us for years!
But I understand that understanding us can be a very tricky matter especially when many here do not understand themselves

[Tina_gm]

Terrific topic. I personally view crossdressing as more of a verb rather than a noun. To cross dress, crossdressed, crossdressing.... Doing something, taking an action really IMO does not make someone something. I know, we can say I am a crossdresser, but that is still sort of a description of a person who makes a specific action. Crossdresser to me is not really an identity. A whole bunch of verbs creates an adjective... It is more of a what a person is than who they are. It is the who that causes a person to take actions which then creates the adjectives....

I am going to give a correction of sorts to a statement you made in a previous post.

Admittedly my default expression is feminine, even without adornments or stereotypically feminine clothing, because I am a female. So no matter how I choose to present, whether it is in an old pair of jeans and torn Tshirt to paint the bathroom or getting all dressed up for a fancy wedding, I can say "this is who I am" and know that people do see me as a woman.

Your default expression being feminine is not because you are a female, it is simply because you are a person who is more feminine than masculine. You are typical of the 90+ percent of females who are more feminine. Enough so that you identify as a woman, which IMO is also not necessarily female. Female is simply what you are physically. A woman is what you identify as, a woman is who you are.

TS women are people IMO who identify as women. Their default expression being so overwhelmingly feminine that they identify as women. Most will desire to and at least attempt transition to be females so that their internal identity and their physical being are matched. Then there are those who crossdress....

IMO, most who do not identify as women yet crossdress get the whole I am being or am or whatever female, are getting it wrong. A part of their identity may be that of a woman, but not complete enough to want or need transition to become a female. Or their identity may not even be a woman at all, just feminine enough to desire and take the actions to experience sensations and certain other actions of that which most females experience.

I feel personally that I am one of those which could be considered dual gendered. Basically, enough femininity that my identity is not solidly that of being just a man. Crossdressing does not make me feel like a female, or even make me more feminine internally. It is my internal femininity that makes me crossdress. It gives me some alignment of my internal femininity. I do believe that a person can identify as both man and woman, or neither perhaps, along with the 90+ percent who are cisgendered and only identify as man or woman as they are also male or female

[Elli87]

I am awsome and I like to present whichever way I please

[ReineD]

Angela, I'm not saying you are a shadow.

I'm saying that I'm like the people who only see and know one thing (I compare the shadows to my personal experience of having no desire to present as a gender opposite to my birth sex), and so I have no experience or personal understanding of what people know who see other things than shadows (I compare the other things than shadows to having a desire to present as a gender opposite to birth sex).

I might have left that analogy out of this discussion, it complicates things.

To everyone, please don't misunderstand. I do accept that people experience fluctuating gender expression needs. My initial query was about what is meant by "this" (in "this is who I am"), when a non-TS is presenting as a female types it in a post. Does it mean the non-TS identifies fully (all the time) as the gender presented at that moment, even during male-mode? Or alternatively (while dressed with also a need to be and identify as male at other times or as other than female)? Or does this person always identify as a gender-fluctuating being?

Words like "this" are nebulous and hard to quantify unless some blanks are filled in and I was saying that most of us only have what is in front of us to go on, when determining what the pronoun "this" means. And since we see a female presentation when people use the term (the avatars or what they represent), it is difficult to determine whether the feeling of being female is persistent or if it fluctuates according to need.

Hope this clarifies and I'm sorry if my question got garbled.

Your default expression being feminine is not because you are a female, it is simply because you are a person who is more feminine than masculine. You are typical of the 90+ percent of females who are more feminine. Enough so that you identify as a woman, which IMO is also not necessarily female. Female is simply what you are physically. A woman is what you identify as, a woman is who you are.

I respect that you feel that way. And although I accept that some people, namely many in this community, do experience some level of gender duality, most of us don't look at it that way. Cis-women don't believe that if they enjoy sports, have the goal of becoming a CEO, or enjoy gutting and refinishing a room in their home, it is their masculine or male-side coming out. Conversely, cis-men don't believe that it is a feminine or female-side coming out when they enjoy cooking, taking care of their young kids, or when they choose to be a nurse or an airline attendant. The majority of people have no conflict between their gender ID and their birth-sex, no matter what their preferences or activities are.

[Pat]

I am certain that over the course of a day, there are few moments where daily activities, my thoughts or my behaviors are defined by gender as such. Isn't this true for everyone, TG or otherwise?

Could be true. But there are certain behaviors that any person can have in the moment but which are characteristic of particular genders when viewed from a distance. For example, I once read a post where someone was complaining that their Girl Time was being encroached upon -- Girl Time was a particular day between particular hours. My internal reaction was that that was a very male behavior -- scheduling, categorizing, partitioning and following up with inflexible expectations. Again, any person male, female or other might do that, but the behavior is very male to me. To me, taking a social situation and trying to analyze it by breaking it into component bits and organizing those bits then searching for A Solution is a very male thing. To me, it's more female to encounter something, try to absorb the gestalt and then try to understand and then accommodate rather than "solve." Both approaches have their benefits and as a person "in the middle" I feel like I get to use them both, but I have to carefully self-evaluate when I encounter various situations to see if I'm using just one gender's skills.

To everyone, please don't misunderstand. I do accept that people experience fluctuating gender expression needs. My initial query was about what is meant by "this" (in "this is who I am"), when a non-TS is presenting as a female types it in a post. Does it mean the non-TS identifies fully (all the time) as the gender presented at that moment, even during male-mode? Or alternatively (while dressed with also a need to be and identify as male at other times or as other than female)? Or does this person always identify as a gender-fluctuating being?

That, to me, is an example of a male behavior being expressed by a female. The drive to nail down what "this" means seems very male to me. Clearly it really has nothing to do with being male, but it's a behavior more characteristic of males than females (again, in my opinion.) If I was doing the same thing, I'd have to take a moment to decide if I'm using the technique because it's required by the situation (it is) or because I'm blindly following the behaviors that were enforced when I was being taught to be a man.

BTW for me, "this" would mean my middlesex gender -- the "this" which is invariant, but changes presentation by whim or need. "This" is *not* the clothes or makeup. It's the creature working the controls of this body.

[Tina_gm]

I often experience the fluctuations you talk about. When it comes me, as a person who is straddling the gender fence, a particular activity, or just about any external situation can cause me to fluctuate to being or feeling more feminine or masculine. (which is also quite subjective really) but what is on TV, if I am in the company of mostly or all men vs, mostly or all women.... the type of store I am in. Not that it always does, but it often does. I am assuming that most cisgender people do not experience this, but for people who reside in a dual gender/gender fluid type of existence, at least for me anyway, it is common. I have experienced times where no matter what I am doing or whatever external situation is present for me, I may still feel more masculine or more feminine. The times where I experience stronger femininity in a physical environment that is more masculine... all guys... hardware store etc etc.... that tends to be very frustrating, I feel very out of place and just generally disconnected. I would imagine that those who are TS must experience something like this on a very regular basis.

[ReineD]

You're in a relationship with someone who has all the trappings of femininity, but apart from those things, is there a fundamental difference sleeping with a person of fluctuating gender? I was told over and over it's not just the clothes. I never got an answer to what else it might be.

There is no difference for me. I haven't been promiscuous in my life but I have had several sexual partners (all male) and I can say there is a very wide range in terms of love-making styles. Some men are super sensuous, others are more focused on orgasm, some men have a wide range of behaviors in the bedroom, others not so much, some men are aware of and they practice tantric sex, some men have kinks (i.e. feeling submissive or dominant is sexually exciting for them), others don't frame it that way, etc.

When my SO (or other partners I've had) and I are having sex, it is the person's basic sexuality that shines through and that transcends things like gender for me. I don't ask myself who is the male or the female. lol. I don't know how to explain it other than there are HUGE variances in personalities and preferences among humans and there is nothing more basic than two people pleasuring each other when they are sexually compatible, no matter what this looks like. The only thing that speaks to gender in my view, is the physical construction of the body. Men and women have body parts that fit together in a certain way to produce pleasure but apart from that, love-making styles and preferences vary widely.

Edit
I'll add to this that at its most basic and fundamental level (please people, don't add layers to this that are not there), being hetero for me means being sexually attracted to people who have the male body part that is a yang to the yin of my female body part. This is how I am physically built to experience sexual pleasure and I dare say that (most) males are physically built to experience physical pleasure through the friction of their male body part. And if my male partner should not wish to use or if he wanted to get rid of that body part, then there would be a mismatch between what I need physically and sexually and what my partner needs.

[Tina_gm]

Reine, I do not have a myopic view on gender in terms of what a person's individual hobbies or activities are, or their employment for that matter. That is so 1950's anymore, although I see that more on this forum than in the general public. What I describe at least for myself in terms of masculine and feminine are completely internal feelings, often that simply relate to women or men. I just can't describe it any better than saying I feel more like one or the other, or relate to one or the other. My mannerisms and certain emotional ways of being are often feminine, but not by any choice or that I give any effort to being or doing something in that manner. I only give effort to not having feminine mannerisms in certain situations, in public with friends or family, and at work mostly. Even that isn't what makes me feminine truly. My mannerisms don't make me feminine, my femininity influences my mannerisms to be that of being subjectively feminine.

I know of a number of men and women who I have no doubt are cis gender and they have hobbies and interests that one could consider to be opposite of their gender if we want to go back to those types of thinking.

[ReineD]

Gendermutt, I understand how you describe yourself and I do not consider that you have a myopic view of gender. I am saying though that for me and for most people at large, we do not experience gender conflict and so we don't think of ourselves as having masculine or feminine tendencies as you described above. We just see ourselves as having interests and personality traits that fall within the very wide range of what is socially deemed "acceptable" (for lack of a better term) for women and men. Women think of themselves as women and men think of themselves as men, no matter what they enjoy doing.

That, to me, is an example of a male behavior being expressed by a female. The drive to nail down what "this" means seems very male to me. Clearly it really has nothing to do with being male, but it's a behavior more characteristic of males than females (again, in my opinion.)

Don't box yourself in! lol Plenty of females have analytic minds and like to know what people mean when they use undefined terms like "this", especially in a forum like this one when all we see are 2x2 inch avatars. Don't you think that a wife will want to know, when her husband who presents as a woman says "this is who I am", if he feels he is a female and will eventually want to transition?

[Tina_gm]

We're all good Reine You make great points about how women aren't always this or that (in general, not just to me) and you are so correct. My wife is such a good example. Such a girly girl in some ways, but her upbringing, partly on a dairy farm.... Her father a carpenter by trade, along with at times being a truck driver.... When something needs to be done around the house, her 1st instinct is to DIY, because that is just how she was raised. My 1st instinct is to call a professional. Not because of gender, but because that was how I was raised. DIY also is not a big interest to me... possibly gender related, I do not care to learn how to build or fix things, Not any enjoyment out of doing so. I do not get a big feeling of accomplishment when I do fix something. More of a relief that I didn't screw it up or simply that it is done.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I agree with you Reine about analytical minds. I think that is simply a personality type. Anyone who has ever done the True Colors personality testing will be familiar with the four colors used to categorize four general personality types. We all have parts of each but most people have a dominant color/personality type. Green represents intellectual/analytical thinkers who need to fully understand and have facts. I've done this testing many times with groups and although the population of people with this dominant personality is usually much smaller than the other three colors, the make up of this group is usually a healthy mix of both genders. This testing is accepted as highly accurate and most sales people learn it so they can adjust thier sales pitch depending on the personality type they're trying to sell to. I think the belief that analytical thinking and problem solving is not a female trait stems from mysogonystic societies such as the assertion that women were to simple minded and not logical or rational enough to vote. "don't worry your pretty little head".
To answer one of your posts Reine I experience being mixed gendered at all times. I personally am not male one hour/day and then female the next hour/day. I am consistantly a mix of man and woman.

Oh, and I dress 1-4 days a week, usually not full days but almost always fully dressed and am getting more interested in going to conventions etc "opening up"

[Tina_gm]

Jasmine, I too often find my gender is fluid and tends to overlap. I know there is a gender fluid term and dual gender, or bi gender. I think for some it tends to roll from one to the other in perhaps a slow wave, and sometimes I feel that way too, but there are a lot of times it seems to overlap as well. Sometimes annoyingly even. Malls for me can be a lot of fun, as just about any store finds interests for me, but occasionally I find it to be overwhelming as my gender ping pongs back and forth so much it just gets really confusing. At other times, I seem to just roll with it and have a very enjoyable experience.

[Katey888]

I am saying though that for me and for most people at large, we do not experience gender conflict and so we don't think of ourselves as having masculine or feminine tendencies as you described above. We just see ourselves as having interests and personality traits that fall within the very wide range of what is socially deemed "acceptable" (for lack of a better term) for women and men. Women think of themselves as women and men think of themselves as men, no matter what they enjoy doing.

Sooo... Reine - just to be completely clear on eradicating that flipping binary paradigm that seems to persist so much...

Do you accept as valid that while you don't think or feel like that, someone who has these tendencies and exhibits any sort of inexplicable desire to manifest as a female (CD or, dare I say it, TG-like.. ) MAY quite reasonably feel something that they believe to be akin to how a female feels in certain circumstances but not all the time...?

I think the circumstances are important because this is (even for me) about a partial switch change in feeling rather than constantly being effeminate, although some traits probably do still come through my male aspect. The dressing facilitates behaviours and feelings that would struggle to emerge in male mode.

If you don't get it, that's fine also - but just reiterates how hard it is for cis-folk to grasp...

Katey x

[Samantha Clark]

Don't you think that a wife will want to know, when her husband who presents as a woman says "this is who I am", if he feels he is a female and will eventually want to transition?

I'll take another stab at this. When I say "this is who I am" it should read "this is ONE aspect of who I am" not the entirety of who I am.

Does that help at all?

[Rhonda Jean]

Thanks for the explanation, Reine. I think yours is the logical outlook. I also think that most women can't overlook the trappings. In all fairness, neither did/do I. I shouldn't have been surprised.