I've been thinking...

[Saikotsu]

Good day everyone,
Before I begin, I'd like to share some context with you.
I consider myself gender fluid. My gender identity shifts over time and often without warning. I was born a male, and have lived most of my life as a male, though in recent years I've come to embrace my feminine side more.

Lately my identity shifts have been more "strong". More pronounced. Normally I feel like I'm somewhere in between one side or the other or I feel a bit of both. Not so much lately. There are days where I'm okay, proud even if being a guy, and there are days where I fervently wish I was female. I don't think transitioning is a solution for me, because then I'd be a woman who some days feels like he is a man rather than a man who some days feels she is a woman.

That said, I've been thinking about what it means to be male or female. What is it like to be a guy? What is it like to be a girl? What do those questions even mean? What I'd like to ask of you all, as people who have transitioned or are transitioning and even those who are considering transtioning, what your perspectives on this are.

I'm looking for ideas and food for thought, mainly. So let's open up the discussion.
What does being a man or being a woman really mean?

[Lorileah]

I wouldn't know. I know what it is to be me. People's perception of what a man or woman si or should be are skewed and often wrong

[Saikotsu]

Therein lies some of the trouble I've been having trying to figure it out. I only know my own perspective, and I have some thoughts on the matter myself And yet the more I think about it, the more I think my ideas are incomplete. Or perhaps inaccurate. They are, of course, quite subjective too.

[Lorileah]

Personally? If you have to ask...you ain't. Be who you are.

[Saikotsu]

That's just it. I know what I am on a given day. Who I am. On a day where I'm a woman, and someone calls me a man, I have a visceral, internal reaction. "No, I am a woman. I am female." There is absolute conviction there. Even though I know my body is male, and that I've lived as a male, I also know that I'm a woman. While I understand and embrace that fact, I want to understand more deeply what that means. How does wanting more knowledge invalidate what I am?

Actually, I think I know what you meant. It I do not know what it means to be male or female, I'm neither.

There is quite a bit of truth to that statement I think. I can only be me, no more and no less.

But it still doesn't answer my question. What does being one or the other mean? It's such a core part of who we are and yet so hard to define.

[becky77]

That's a tough question because we only ever know our own mind, when you say you feel like a woman describe what you mean, how do you feel like a woman?

Do you have any issues with your male body? How do you interact with other women compared to other men?

I've only ever identified as a woman, in the early days when I didn't understand that, it was more a case of being deeply uncomfortable as a man, I didn't understand why I couldn't fit in and I hated my body, the masculine parts. With limited knowledge I thought I was a crossdresser, but I can't think of anytime I ever embraced being a man.
I don't miss anything about being a man, the idea of returning to that is a nightmare.

I don't really understand how someone can have a fluid identity, having a strong need to express your feminine side and wanting that validated makes sense but that's not the same as having a female identity.
Let's say you did live the day as a woman, what would that entail and if that day stretched into several days what would you miss about being a man?

Another question, on the 'female' days, would you be satisfied being an average looking, no make-up, slacks wearing woman?

I'm asking these questions because I have so little understanding of Gender fluid.

[Saikotsu]

To your first question, when I feel like a woman, or when I'm feeling feminine, it's essentially the same as you. I identify as a woman.

The difference being my internal identity is not static. It can shift. Usually I feel pretty consistent throughout the day. However, it can suddenly shift without warning, as if someone flipped a switch. I have no control over when or to what degree that shift occurs. It just does.

Think of it like a slider. On the left is female, on the right is male. At any given time someone can walk up and move this slider. If I'm 100% on the left, I hate my body. Hate the male aspects of it. Penis, balding hair, broad shoulders, lack of breasts, etc. On days like that, I wake up and feel deep remorse that I am not a woman on the outside.

On the flip side, on days where I'm 100% on the right, on the male side, I'm downright proud to be a guy. My bald spot doesn't bug me, I puff out my chest and strut my stuff. On days like that, I refuse to wear anything feminine at all. No panties. No nails, nothing.

Generally speaking though, I'm somewhere in between. Most days i will dress and act in accordance with how far I am left or right. The dysphoria I experience On those days becomes proportional to how closely I can match up.

Regarding my interactions with women and men, I'm equally at home with both. Always have been. That said, a lot of women feel safe around me. I've been told on many occasions that I'm like a brother or a trusted male relative. I have a lot of sisters because of that. On the flip side, a lot of guys feel like I give off a different vibe but they can't quite put their finger on it.

To your hypothetical situation: if I were to be a woman for a day, it would depend on where my slider is. One the one hand, I would be ecstatic to be on the "other side" for once. I would enjoy it as best I could. But then if that time stretched out to a week, I think some of the novelty would wear off and I'd be back to normal. Then it would be a matter of how far right my slider goes. At the lower to mid rights, I'd become more tomboyish, and at higher levels I'd likely experience the same dysphoria I have now, but in reverse. I'd miss my male body.

I often say that I wish I had my avatars "curse". When he/she is exposed to water she/he transforms into the opposite gender.

As for your question about being an average looking, no makeup, slacks woman, that wouldn't bug me at all. Heck, when I get home I usually slip into a pair of cargo pants or a skirt And something comfortable. If I'm feeling feminine, that equates to either a blouse or just a bra and forms. If I'm feeling masculine I keep the cargo pants and just wear a t shirt. Comfort and practicality are my priorities. I don't really get dolled up unless I'm doing something fancy with my girlfriend.

On that note, my sexuality remains constant. I'm either straight or lesbian. (i prefer lesbian because that feels most accurate to me)

Anyway, I'm glad you're asking these questions. It helps to demonstrate why I'm asking what I'm asking. For me, it's easier to describe my experience as a gender fluid individual than it is to describe what being a man is.

And yet, I know very well the discomfort of being forced into a gender role I don't identify as. A good example was when I was with a group of friends at a convention. They were (at the time) unaware of my gender identity. During that convention, I got hit hard with the dysphoria. I became a woman trapped in a mans body for a full weekend. Being forced to act and look like a guy that entire time made me really cranky and irritable and it felt super stressful. My slider didn't reset until well into the following Monday.

Anyway, that's it for now. Time for bed. Hope that helped?

[ReineD]

I'm a GG and I don't know either.

I do know that I don't notice that I'm a GG, any more than I am consciously aware that I have two eyes and two arms, or that I breathe non-stop, or that the sun rises in the morning. These things are such an integral part of life for me that I seldom think of them. I take them for granted.

But when I think about what must be the difference between male and female, I need to eliminate things that both sexes share in common, such as having an intellect and an ability to experience the full breadth of human emotion. When I think about all the men and women I know, I cannot even say that some personality traits are more feminine or masculine, since there is a wide range of personalities among both sexes that gives rise to an equally large range of personal preferences. And all of these people (if they are cisgender), take it that their personalities and preferences are perfectly normal for them and do not indicate gender variance, even if for example a female should be extremely sportive and hate the trappings of conventional femininity (makeup and dresses), or a male should not be interested in sports but instead thrive on expressing an artistic interest and cooking, and wearing brightly colored, creative clothes. So we can also rule out things that people like to do as a way to define the differences between men and women.

This only leaves us with biology. The fundamental differences, as simplistic as this might seem, are the physical differences caused by one sex having testosterone and the other, estrogen. Do testosterone and estrogen influence behaviors? It's difficult to measure. I know women who are aggressive and men who are passive, and they are comfortable with their genders.

Yesterday I was at a grocery store and struck a conversation with a father in his late 30s, whose youngest of three daughters had just rammed into me with a grocery cart as she was careening down the isle. He apologized and I reassured him, saying that I had three grown sons and remembered well the challenge of herding three children and a cart through a grocery store. We chatted for a while, comparing the raising of three girls vs. three boys with the same age spread; we found lots of similarities and no differences. I saw that he handled his girls the same way I had handled my boys. We ended up talking for quite a while about all sorts of things and this was a being that I connected with completely and felt comfortable with. This man and his wife both work in jobs where they each have the freedom to take turns picking up the girls after school and getting dinner started. So I can truthfully say that I perceived no gendered differences between us, other than the fact that he was bigger than me, with a beard and a deeper voice.

… as I type this, I am reminded there are times when I am consciously aware of my femininity, and this is when I am in the presence of a man who gives off particularly strong male vibes; by this I mean when there is sexual tension, even if there is no romantic attraction. So again, I think that gender is mostly about biology for cisgender people, so much so that they are intertwined for them. I am not in a position to say what is gender for TSs or gender-variant people.

[Marcelle]

Hello Adyson,

Like yourself, I identify gender fluid but to be honest it is a place holder of sorts until I truly figure this out as things can get confusing the more I live both genders. WRT what it means (to me) to be a man or woman, it is really subjective as I don't differentiate personalities/experiences between the two. Specifically, whether I am presenting as a man or a woman at home, in public or at work, I am the same person. I have the same likes, wants, desires, humour and whatnot. It is the sense of self that changes only. When I identify as a woman, I am woman . . . when I identify as a man, I am a man. Don't get me wrong, this is not something I control and can switch on depending on the day. My level of GID can be anywhere from light (lull periods) to extreme. I had responded to a similar question in that my GID is not transitory in the sense it rushes in at zero dark thirty then wanes around 4PM, sputters and fizzles out until the next week. It is more a build up until I cannot control the feeling at which point I find myself identifying as a woman. This is normally preceded with panic attacks in which presenting male is not an option because I do not feel like a man and to do so would not properly align my gender to my sense of self.

There are marked differences during my time in either gender. When I identify as a woman, I feel like "me" in a sense the true me who has always existed but remained submerged for well . . . my entire adult life (at least until this point in time). When I am presenting as a man (lull period) there is invested emotional effort to present male but it more a sense of "missing" and to some degree "waiting" for the next flip (sort to speak). I explained to my wife it is as though I can do "guy" during these periods because I have been doing "guy" my entire life and I have gotten good at it. During these lull periods I have enough comfort (no panic attacks) to do so for brief periods of time. However, when presenting as a man, I can still feel "her" behind my eyes and I miss her but, when I identify as a woman, I do not feel the same way about "him". When I identify as a woman there is no switching back and forth which effectively means I live the entire period (which can last for several days) as a woman including going to work, running errands, going to the gym, yard work or whatever . . . there is no male me at this point.

Cheers

Isha

[Kaitlyn Michele]

very very interesting point Reine..

I do know that I don't notice that I'm a GG, any more than I am consciously aware that I have two eyes and two arms, or that I breathe non-stop, or that the sun rises in the morning. These things are such an integral part of life for me that I seldom think of them. I take them for granted.


i have often described the meaning of transition as this very thing..

I am not aware of my gender...it hardly ever pops into my mind...

however, prior to transition ALL I EVER THOUGHT about was my gender....over time it got worse and worse...over many years it became overwhelming to the point of desperation and existential misery..
that's all gone...sometimes i joke about it...

what did i get out of transition?? well i lost my job and marraige, spent $100k+ and countless hours of physical pain and went through many years of hell.
and now i forget why i did it!!!!!!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++
gender is the fundamental organizing principle of human beings.....my discomfort was borne of the wrongness i felt almost at all times... everything is gendered...

so gender fluid people have a fundamentally different problem... once i changed my gender role, the misery was 100% gone... i was a girl with lots of problems....

i think many gender fluid people are cds that are really really into it...others are ts women that are slowly coming to terms, and i'm sure the rest are truly gender fluid..
but i do wonder...i would add that as a binary gendered person, its something i literally cannot internally comprehend..(just like a cis person cannot internalize my gender)
just like all the cis people that i told, when i'm told that someone is bigendered there is a part of me that disbeleives it because i cannot internally comprehend it..
its kind of informative because i feel its a glimpse of what cisgendered and many cd folk think of me..

we all project ourselves..

so i'd be very careful saikotsu putting too much into what the ts people say to you because we are binary gendered people...its one thing to support your identity, but its another to be able to give you thoughts on your gender...our perspective is binary and filtered through the black colored glasses of gender dysphoria and what we go through to combat GD

[LeaP]

"Saikotsu" ... so close to Suikotsu, an anime character with a split personality. Interesting.

In any event, I can only relate my somewhat similar experience and what it has meant to me. I believe that your question is ultimately unresolvable, however. In the end, you either know or you do not, and the answer comes from something below the level of consciousness.

For most of my life I would say I was "not male." Even more adamantly when "male" was changed to "man." ... as in, "I am NOT a man!" But that didn't translate to female or woman, either. I started posting here after experiencing what I describe now as flashes of knowledge or insight breaking through. I described that at the time in terms of feeling female. What it really was, however, was a return to feeling like myself after decades and somehow knowing that I was female. How do I know this? Because that sensation of feeling different has subsided and what remains is simply me - along with the knowledge. The only reminder is a distinct sensation of same-sex attraction with women, which is invoked quite strongly with my wife. In fact, I don't think I truly believed in lesbian identity before that happened.

So I'm extending my experience to yours by analogy. What your experience really means, however, is up to you to divine. And that's a bottomless hole. That it is a monumentally existential struggle is evidenced in the struggle.

A recent dream gave me a symbolic visual, however. I saw myself as two "people": a large male figure, on the order of 20 stories tall, and a tall female figure, equally large. The male figure was solid, the female figure translucent. They stood astride different sections of a city with a large elevated highway separating them, but connected by a small, dirty, graffiti-marked tunnel deep below. I could feel the pull between the physical reality of the male and the soul, as I saw it, of the female, along with the tension created between them. Both had their own reality, albeit in different ways. It symbolized GD to me. That the fundamental identity, need, and resolution was the female was evident in several ways. First, the male figure was static. No movement and no life. The female figure was moving (in place), looking out to sea, but unable to leave. And it was clear to me that the only way to break free was to CRUSH the tunnel and leave.

Strange dream perhaps, but the impressions and meanings were strong. But can I crystallize what it means to be male or female? No.

[Saikotsu]

Thank you all for your perspectives.
@RaineD
I was hoping to hear from at least one person who felt as you do, so I'm really glad you took the time to post.

However, I think that there is more to it than just simple biology. After all, if biology was the only factor, then it becomes difficult to explain transgender individuals who identify as something they biologically aren't. Perhaps, like you said, biology is the primary determinant for cisgender people. Perhaps the differences in gender identities stem from what determining factors we use?

@Isha
Your experiences are so like mine, yet so different. Like you, I don't really change all that much outwardly when I switch. Sure I dress to match my internal identity, but for the most part I engage in the same activities, eat the same foods, interact with the same people . (though I have noticed a slight difference in the way I hold myself and my girlfriend has noticed I walk differently. These are unconscious behaviors by the way.)

Luckily I do not experience panic attacks like you do (sorry to hear you have to go through that by the way) and I don't feel "wrong" in either gender. But I do feel most "right" when I present in a way consistent with my internal identity. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I'm at my most comfortable on days when I'm "mixed". Days where I'm 60/40.

@Kaitlyn
What you say definitely has merit. Each of us has a unique perspective brought on by our gender identities. We have a hard time understanding the perspective of others whose experiences we have not had. Just look at the responses we've seen thus far. But that's precisely why I want to hear from everyone. Even amongst the people who identify as I do, we have had vastly different yet similar experiences. It's like the three blind people and the elephant. Individually they only experience one aspect of the elephant. But together, their experiences can come close to approximating what an elephant looks like.

@LeaP
I assure you, my gamer tag is not related to that character, though I do wonder which anime they are from?

In regards to my question being unresolvable, you're most likely right. But there is something enjoyable about the pursuit of understanding it. Even if I don't come away from this with a definitive answer, hearing everyones thoughts on the matter has expanded my limited understanding. That is a victory in my book.

Also, thank you for sharing that dream. I shall have to think about that one some more.

[arbon]

I think it has been answered better than I could answer already

Priror to transition, being a boy and man, living that life - felt wrong, felt like a lie. I was drawn or driven to the feminine because that was my nature. I often wondered what it felt like to be a man and be fine with that.

Being a woman does not really feel like anything. Being a woman I don't think about or feel driven to be something else. It seems or feels normal. I don't think I feel like I am trans anymore even, it just stopped.
Kinda weird.
I don't particularly feel feminine or masculine.

[Angela Campbell]

I don't know what it means to be a woman. I know that once I transitioned, I felt normal.

[RylieCD]

my wife asked me this question once "do you feel like a woman, or do you feel like a man" I couldnr answer because i didnt know what a man was suppose to feel like or what a woman is suppose to feel like. I know that currently as a man i dont feel correct, but what if I transition get out of it what kaitlyn did and still not feel correct. I have the utmost admiration for those who take that chance, I am sure I am looking to much into it but I rather me my current self (i dont want to say male) and have my family and friends then to be female (yes I woud love to be) and be alone. I know that this is a common fear for most and it seldom happens from the stories Ive read but none the less I am still very fearful of it.

what did i get out of transition?? well i lost my job and marraige, spent $100k+ and countless hours of physical pain and went through many years of hell.
and now i forget why i did it!!!!!!!!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

well that's the issue !!! LOL..

i am thrilled with my transition. it totally saved me...my quality of life is excellent.

and thats because getting all that "wrongness" out of my head freed me to live a real life..and i did something with it..

It did not feel like a chance to me.. i was not afraid of making a mistake, i was afraid of the consequences of my transition, and so i worked hard at it..


are you functioning?? can you make it through your days? do you feel the love of your family as its directed at you?? do you care about your occupation??
i didn't...

[Megan G]

are you functioning??...

That right there, in three little harmless words is what pushed me over the edge. I was not functioning, not in my personal life, not in my career, nothing!!

I cannot say it any better that the others already have. I have no idea of what it feels like to be a woman, I only know about what it feels like to be me.
What I do know is the farther I progress thru my transition the less and less I feel of the crippling GD I once felt.

Megan

[Saikotsu]

It seems the general consensus is that nobody knows what it means to be a man or a woman, but we all have a decent understanding of what it means to be ourselves.
On an unrelated note,
I'm going to be at an anime convention this weekend, so I likely won't be replying much to this thread during that time. Thanks everyone for your perspectives, and I'll reply when I get back.

[PaulaQ]

Being a man or a woman isn't a thing exactly. When we try to analyze it by reducing it down to their parts, really we just wind up commenting on our own biases that we usually learn in our culture.

If we reduce it to clothing and appearance we lose masculine women and feminine men.

If reduce it to societal gender roles, we lose many men and women who don't exactly conform to them.

If we reduce it to biology alone, we lose intersexed people.

If we reduce it to privilege, we lose the beauty of women, for we define ourselves as less than, and we certainly are not less than - although we are too often treated as such.

And yet there are differences between men and women - when we try to be blind to them, we lose our humanity.

There are a lot of differences between men and women, but the behavioral and emotional things are really, on an individual basis, just tools for solving problems in our daily lives. For the most part, men and women have all these same tools in their toolbox - it's just often the tool we try to use first is different - at least when looked at on a societal level.

I guess we could argue its body parts, but then we lose trans people.

It's easy to focus on the visible things - we are visual animals. But they just aren't whole story.

I guess we could argue that its the the structure of our brains, and surely that's a big piece of the puzzle, but it's so invisible.

To me, the difference between a man and a woman is perhaps more than the sum of these things. Our spirits, our souls, our energy - whatever term a person might use if they even believe in such things. If nothing else, we are more than the sum of our parts. Vastly more in my belief.

Of course, there's are other choices than just "man" or "woman", but that's another topic all together!