Femininity and Female Identity

[Veronica27]

I remember a few decades ago, when a lot of people (mostly women) spoke and wrote about the need for men to get in touch with their feminine side. They were not meaning wearing pretty dresses and makeup, but that men should participate more in child rearing, household tasks and opening up to others about their feelings. There was rarely any mention of women embracing their masculine side as it was a foregone conclusion that they quite often did. This speaks volumes about how society has always viewed traditional masculinity and femininity. Men tend to be protective of the masculine role as representing strength and power, while women face the "challenge" of competing in this male environment. As a consequence we tend to admire the woman who openly expresses her masculinity by being adventurous, involved in rigorous sports or taking on what was traditionally a male only occupation or profession. The occasional wearing of male oriented clothing has come to be expected and is a non issue. On the other hand we tend to place scorn on a man for going beyond the "prescribed" expectations of child rearing etc. Any further expression of femininity such as clothing, mannerisms etc. are taboo and he can expect derision and worse if he is not extremely careful.

But what are masculinity and femininity? Is the former the exclusive preserve of the males while the latter is found only among the females? Of course not, and the above paragraph illustrates how society does not actually think that. So what then is female identity? Is it the possession of a tremendous degree of "femininity"? The answer is probably a resounding no, as any female member of the armed forces or fire department would tell you. They can compete on a par with their male work colleagues, or be as dainty and feminine as anyone when out on a special date, and they would most definitely consider themselves to be women. Similarly, I and many other crossdressers can look, act and even feel as feminine as any woman, and still consider ourselves to be men.

So how do we determine whether we are getting in touch with our feminine side or identifying as a woman? This is a perplexing question which we can sometimes answer for ourselves, but cannot come up with any overriding rules that fit all, as it is such a highly subjective thing. To answer this for my self, I have devised the following theory.

Masculinity and femininity are elements of human nature, and as human beings we possess the capacity to feel and express all aspects of both to some degree. These, like all the other elements of human nature are subject for that degree to influences such as genetics, environment, experience, heredity, intellect, talent, intuition and so on. As a result, we arrive at a sort of compendium of all these elements that we call our own unique personality, with the capability of being all things, but the likelihood of being a select few. Society, over the ages has tended to look upon some of these elements of human nature as being more masculine in nature and some as being more feminine in nature. It is all very abstract, but it influences how we approach life and our role within it, and it has shown signs of changing from era to era or place to place. A masculine man at one point in history might be viewed as somewhat effeminate in another. My personal feminine side, in all likelihood, is a much more prominent part of my personality than that of the average male, and thus I feel a desire to express and experience that side of my nature, with crossdressing being my preferred outlet. I have no interest in many other typically female types of pursuits however and sense no feeling whatsoever of being female or a woman or even of wanting or desiring to be one. Wanting to emulate in appearance and possibly some mannerisms is quite different from wanting to "be", or feeling that you "are". It encompasses things like attraction, desire, envy, curiosity and so on in an entirely different fashion, and includes factors such as adventure, escapism, relaxation, etc. that have an entirely different significance.

Identity is a more difficult concept to explain, and I must admit to having no answers other than I do not know because I sense no incongruity between my biological sex and my gender identity. From what I have read, those males who identify as female do not necessarily possess more or even less femininity than I do, or for that matter many non crossdressers do. Femininity and gender identity seem to have no bearing on each other, despite sometimes sharing a very strong personality characteristic.

If anyone has any personal insights as to the nature of or causes of a gender identity differing from ones biological sex, I would be very interested in hearing them.

Veronica

[Ezekiel]

Feminity and masculinity are terms that, like you said, vary so much and are subjective, usually associated with a level of prevalence of characteristics expressed in one gender and another, establish a normality, and then call that feminine or masculine personality.

This vary from society to society of course, as what is expected in behavior, rules, norms, etc.

Take for example arab men. You might see them in the street hand in hand walking together. This is in no way considered feminine in arab territories.
However, in the west this might be considered to be gay or they would be asked if they are a couple. This exemplifies how subjective the terms masculinity and feminity, socially wise, are.

Masculinity and feminity, understood as traits and in general view by society, can be understood as expression and mannerism.
It is thought that women are more expressive than men on average, so it is categorized as a more feminine trait. The less expressive you are, the more likely you will be perceived as masculine. This of course, is very simplistic, but its probably how most people perceive it on a superficial level.

In the end however, whats defined as masculine and feminine, can only be understood as a subjectivity that has been normalized from the observation of the average traits commonly displayed in each gender. What you get from such a view is, of course, not very meaningful and is narrow.

Masculinity and femininity are elements of human nature, and as human beings we possess the capacity to feel and express all aspects of both to some degree.

Evidently many people would be more at ease if society wasn't so judgemental on how people express themselves, and we would see how true this line is. We are not the only ones repressed, we are just one of the most obvious groups who express themselves different to the rigid male and female accepted behaviors.

My guess is that very few are completly are on the extremes on this aspect, and the rest are in between on a spectrum.

Society, over the ages has tended to look upon some of these elements of human nature as being more masculine in nature and some as being more feminine in nature. It is all very abstract, but it influences how we approach life and our role within it, and it has shown signs of changing from era to era or place to place. A masculine man at one point in history might be viewed as somewhat effeminate in another.

Exactly, society is at fault for making things rigid in this aspect, and it does influence everybody a lot in their lives. If there was truly freedom, as I said before we would see how "androgynous" people actually is, but keeps repressing some parts of their personality, as small as they might be, just to conform to the norm and not be bullied.

Societal patriarchy looks down on what it calls feminity and considers it weak. Since this world is highly competitive because of capitalism, emphasis is placed on being tough and typical macho, so not to be seen as weak, and thus preserve the goals in life people aspire to.

And like you said, the perceptions of masculinity and feminity, just like anything else, change from era to era, from society to society.

The british men for example, in curly wigs and colorful dressing of 18th century. Or color pink, how it changed from a masculine color to a feminine one, and blue was a feminine one, now considered masculine. Esentially they reversed it.

Honestly, all very stupid and arbitrary, all these we have to deal with.

From what I have read, those males who identify as female do not necessarily possess more or even less femininity than I do, or for that matter many non crossdressers do. Femininity and gender identity seem to have no bearing on each other, despite sometimes sharing a very strong personality characteristic.

Indeed, gender is one thing and personality is another, very different thing, even they might be related at some point, perhaps in their pivotal area?

I can only speak for myself, but I am male and my identity as such is very strong. My personality could also be considered typically male in many aspects.
However, I crave to have the image of a woman. I admire how females look, an admiration so deep regarding their facial features and body shape, except for breasts, that I'm in love with. I'd like an FFS and some cosmetic hip widening to attain this, I just don't have the money for it, nor my current situation would permit me do. Time will say.

To society this is basically a gay behavior / consideration or they would think I'm TS.

But I am all male, and I do not wish to be perceived differently to that. As subjective as considerations are, my subjective view on masculinity includes this I have just expressed.

On further analysis of the subject of identity and what feminity / masculinity means, we should perhaps ask a TS, who might help us understand what is it to be a woman with the body of a man (or viceversa, but given the absence of FtMs here, for practical reasons I would ask an MtF transsexual)

[Saikotsu]

Good evening,
I recently posted a thread in the transsexual forum exploring the meaning of femininity and masculinity. I called it, "I've been thinking...". You may want to check it out to see what others have said. I'll do my best to paraphrase what was said though.

Essentially, a lot of people told me to be myself, that gender is ultimately subjective and undefinable. I believe you too have come to this conclusion based on what you have stated.

However, since you asked, I'll happily offer my own perspective on gender identity. I'm quite fond of discussing it, actually.

I identify as gender fluid. For me, gender identity is a fluid, ever changing, fluctuating state. It shifts from day to day, sometimes hour to hour. This morning, for instance, I was seriously tempted to wear my bra and forms in to work today. I was so attached to my female identity that I didn't want to come in to work today presenting as a male. I would rather call in sick so I could present in a manner consistent with my identity than go in to work and present as a gender I didn't feel I was.

Now, at the end of the day (having gone to work anyway) I feel more masculine than feminine. Being a male doesn't bother me, and I feel like I'm presenting accurately for who and what I am. I have no strong desire to be a woman at the moment. AT THE MOMENT. There have been days where I hate my male body and fervently wish I was a woman. Now isn't one of them.

I've had days where I have felt 100% female. On those days, "I am a woman". It is a fact, on the level of "the ocean is wet". Despite all the evidence to the contrary, I am a woman on those days.

I have no idea how to explain the why of it. My gender identity simply is. I've experienced days where I feel like I'm something beyond the gender binary. Neither male nor female. Some days I'm a bit of both. Rarely am I 100% on one side.

All in all I feel the most comfortable when I'm feeling mixed. As such, I incorporate elements of both into my appearance and clothing choices.

As for the why....
There are a lot of things I can't explain, but there are some things I can. This is not an addiction. I don't get a rush out of any of this. When I'm wearing women's clothes, or whatnot, I get no rush from it.

My desire to dress in a particular way stems from a desire to feel normal. When I'm dressed as a woman and feel I am a woman, I feel normal. When I'm dressed as a woman and feel like a guy, I feel really off. Likewise, when I'm a girl and dressed like a guy, I feel really off.

Except when I don't. Some days I feel like a tomboy and dress to match up. But the funny thing is, its not about the clothes. Its about lessening the dysphoria. There are days where no amount of clothing can lessen my feeling of being in the wrong body. Then there are days where I'm proud my masculine form.

I have no control over how I feel. This isn't something where I can say, "I'm going to be a girl today". It just happens and I do what I can to deal with it. I hope that shed some light on the question. More likely, it just raised more questions though, right?

[Ezekiel]

Saikotsu, in regards to gender-fluidity. While I understand, to a reasonable extent i'd say, what it entails to feel one gender or another, even though I am not gender-fluid I've read quite a lot about it, I still have some doubts on certain things, and I have a question.

Could it be, that those who identify as gender-fluid, have some kind of dyssociative state of mind that rigidly separates what they perceive as male and female, just because you were grown up, raised in the very shallow gender notions of society?

In other, simpler words, could it be that just because you think that being male means a particular thing and being female another, that you want in your mind to separate them so much that it makes you think you switch genders mentally, just not to mix them both for some unsconscious reason?

I mean with this that it could be a perception of things, and nothing else?

In the end my question might point to another background one, which would be: Can you actually switch genders identity wise? Can you actually go from male to female and viceversa? Or is it all just a dyssiociative mind pattern of what you've been raised to perceive about female and male?

If you do not understand me, knowing that I might be a bit confusing in the wording sometimes, feel free to point it out and I will try to clarify as best as possible.

[Tracii G]

Its different for each person and trying to read into all the whys and how comes seems futile.
Catch phrases like "in the gender binary" just make me think oh here we go someone is trying to go all scientific and try to stick us in a box.

[Ezekiel]

I get your notions Tracii, but if we don't ask ourselves things and analyze concepts, I feel we don't progress. Maybe its not always about progressing towards anything, but it does help understand some things through reason.

[ReineD]

First let's eliminate things that can be both masculine and feminine, so we can then focus on what things make the two genders different:

1. Emotions: happiness, sadness, jealousy, anger, disappointment, nurturing in the sense that both parents will want to pick up and comfort a crying child, the need to bond with others, ... you get the idea. Every human emotion can be experienced by both genders. So the ability to experience emotion is not gender specific and cannot be used to define masculinity vs femininity.

2. What people do: just about every job - CEO, doctor, lawyer, office clerk, sales person, nurse, school teacher, pharmacist, police officer, airline attendant, artist, cabinet maker, upholsterer, chef, software programming, and the list goes on. The exceptions might be jobs that require a lot of physical strength that most women would have difficulty with, but this is a physical difference (see below). Also, both men and women can take care of their kids, change diapers, make financial decisions, mow the lawn, make dinner, drive the kids to a birthday party, etc.

3. Preferences: this list is too varied to mention everything, plus as you mentioned, it constantly changes according to social constructs, for example pink used to be the color for boys 100 years ago but now it is the color for girls. I suppose we could say that women generally like to shop more than men, but I know men who like to shop and women who don't. In terms of general interests, both genders enjoy dining out, camping, hiking, sailing, sports, reading, traveling, the arts, computing, playing music, collecting a variety of stuff.

So what are we left with? Two things (well, really one and a half things):

1. Our physical bodies: the way we look, sound, how much hair we have, the softness or roughness of our skin, what body parts we have, muscle mass, our heights and size of hands and feet in comparison to the other sex, etc. All of these things are determined by hormones. So we could say that testosterone and estrogen determine the differences between males and females, at least insofar as their bodies. Do hormones affect human behavior? I do know that some women are competitive and aggressive and some men are non-competitive and passive and so we need to eliminate hormone-induced behaviors.

A very important part of our physical makeup, is that most of us are hard-wired to seek mates - the "mating-call" if you will. It's how we propagate the species and every species does it. In humans, men are more prone to attract partners through a show of power or wealth (think the babe-magnet car or the sports jock). And girls are more prone to attract partners by adorning themselves and by emphasizing their feminine attributes through makeup, clothes that emphasize their shape, jewelry, etc (although the importance of doing this tends to diminish among many women as they age).

This, I think, is the part that CDers are most attracted to.

2. Social conditioning: boys are treated differently than girls from a young age, so both sexes learn different things. Boys are given guns and trucks whereas girls are given dolls. But, increasingly this is disappearing. Boys and girls are also given gender-neutral toys so as to not limit anyone. Girls now learn to be competitive by playing sports and they are encouraged to choose careers in the STEM fields. Both boys and girls now are into video games, electronics, etc. So lots of current components of social conditioning really belong in the section above, under "things we cannot use to differentiate between boys and girls".

All this to say that if you want to simplify, we are left basically with the physical differences between boys and girls, and how they are driven to attract mates. The birds and the bees and all that. And CDers are attracted to the ways that girls adorn themselves.

[Saikotsu]

Saikotsu, in regards to gender-fluidity. While I understand, to a reasonable extent i'd say, what it entails to feel one gender or another, even though I am not gender-fluid I've read quite a lot about it, I still have some doubts on certain things, and I have a question.

Could it be, that those who identify as gender-fluid, have some kind of dyssociative state of mind that rigidly separates what they perceive as male and female, just because you were grown up, raised in the very shallow gender notions of society?

In other, simpler words, could it be that just because you think that being male means a particular thing and being female another, that you want in your mind to separate them so much that it makes you think you switch genders mentally, just not to mix them both for some unsconscious reason?

I mean with this that it could be a perception of things, and nothing else?

In the end my question might point to another background one, which would be: Can you actually switch genders identity wise? Can you actually go from male to female and viceversa? Or is it all just a dyssiociative mind pattern of what you've been raised to perceive about female and male?

If you do not understand me, knowing that I might be a bit confusing in the wording sometimes, feel free to point it out and I will try to clarify as best as possible.

You've found a really diplomatic way of asking, "is it all in your head?" however, I sense no malice in your question, just academic curiosity.

Honestly, I think that all gender identity is a mental construct. It's entirely internal and dependent on one's own perception. Sex on the other hand tends to be more absolute. I have a male body, thus my sex is male. Even in a society with poorly defined gender roles, humans are still able to distinguish sex. If I were to grow up in a society like that, I'm fairly certain I'd still realize that my internal sense of self doesn't always match my external reality.

That I think is the key. Regardless of my ideas of what masculinity or femininity mean (questions I still am grappling with), at the end of the day, I still have to contend with mismatching internal and external identities.

Regarding whether or not I think it's possible to shift gender identities, I would have to say yes.

Earlier, you said that you are male and wish to be perceived as such. You also said that you feel very strongly that you are male.

That is the part of me that shifts. The way I perceive myself and how strongly I feel that my internal self matches my external. That changes. How I wish to be perceived. That changes too. The level of discomfort I feel when my body doesn't match my internal sense of self, that fluctuates as well. Generally speaking, the more male I feel, the less upset I am that I have a male body.

@Reine
Well said. However, I'd like to point out that not all men and not all women try to attract a mate in the same way. Sexuality is as diverse and convoluted as gender identity.

As we all (hopefully) know, the two are not dependent on one another either, so we can have women who try to attract a mate with power and men who try to adorn themselves well and emphasize their masculinity (or femininity. Many a man has tried to woo a potential mate by getting in touch with his feminine side)

[Marcelle]

. . . Could it be, that those who identify as gender-fluid, have some kind of dyssociative state of mind that rigidly separates what they perceive as male and female, just because you were grown up, raised in the very shallow gender notions of society? In other, simpler words, could it be that just because you think that being male means a particular thing and being female another, that you want in your mind to separate them so much that it makes you think you switch genders mentally, just not to mix them both for some unsconscious reason? . . . In the end my question might point to another background one, which would be: Can you actually switch genders identity wise? Can you actually go from male to female and viceversa? Or is it all just a dyssiociative mind pattern of what you've been raised to perceive about female and male?

Hi Ezekiel,

Sorry, you are way off base here in trying to link dissociative identity disorder to those of us who do not fit neatly within the TG spectrum. As Saikotsu indicated it was a very diplomatic way of saying "it is all in your head" but I also I agree the question did not come from a position of malice but misunderstanding. Dissociative identity disorder (aka split personality or multiple personalities back in the day) is characterized by the presence of two or more distinct or split identities or personality states (alters) that continually have power over the person's behavior. The "alters" or different identities have their own age, gender, or race. Each has his or her own postures, gestures, and distinct way of talking. Sometimes the alters are imaginary people; sometimes they are animals. The dissociative aspect is thought to be a coping mechanism -- the person literally dissociates herself from a situation or experience that's too violent, traumatic, or painful to assimilate with his conscious self. During the "switch" the person experiences dissociative fugue/amnesia in which they cannot recall what took place during the presence of the alter nor can the alter remember what occurred during the presence of the conscious self.

So unless the person is experiencing black out periods while presenting female it is unlikely to be a dissociative state. As a person who identifies as both a woman and a man, I can attest that I am fully cognizant of what occurs during whatever gender I choose to identify with (i.e., no black out periods). Indeed my personality is the same in that I have the same wants, desires, emotions and more importantly memories.

The issue is that the concepts of femininity and masculinity are societal concepts of what used to be. These concepts were ingrained in child rearing back in the day and have survived to some degree in stereotypical traits associated with each gender. So, when I identify as a woman my presentation changes to align myself with these concepts as they exist today (clothing, mannerisms). However, I do not become a different person irrespective of whether I am in my home with my wife or at work I am still me but at that point in time I am a woman. Many here seem to associate stereotypical feminine traits (shopping, getting nails done, housework, pretty dresses) with gender (being a woman). They are not one in the same anymore than stereotypical masculine traits make you a man. Gender is an internalized sense of self not a collage of feminine or masculine traits. Indeed if I were to ask you what defines you as a man and you cannot speak in terms of traits or societal upbringing based on stereotypical concepts of masculine or feminine . . . how would you define what being a man is?

. . . I am male and my identity as such is very strong. My personality could also be considered typically male in many aspects.
However, I crave to have the image of a woman. I admire how females look, an admiration so deep regarding their facial features and body shape, except for breasts, that I'm in love with. I'd like an FFS and some cosmetic hip widening to attain this, I just don't have the money for it, nor my current situation would permit me do. Time will say.

Now I will say this post does confuse me slightly. You indicate you have a strong male identity yet you wish to alter you body to be more female. Normally surgical alteration to align one's birth sex physiology with a target gender is associated with being TS. Are you saying that you would alter your body to female (FFS, BAS) but still live your life as a man? Or would you live your life as a woman? If it is as a man, I would posit that your male identity is not as strong as you think.

Cheers

Isha

[PaulaQ]

D

Could it be, that those who identify as gender-fluid, have some kind of dyssociative state of mind that rigidly separates what they perceive as male and female, just because you were grown up, raised in the very shallow gender notions of society?

I've only met one (probable) trans person with DID. At least for this person, it presented very differently than any other trans person I've ever met, even others who suffered serious mental illness. I couldn't determine whether or not this person was safe attending my support group, nor whether or not we were safe with her present. When she began to talk about violence against others, coupled with her extreme size and apparent physical strength, I was quite afraid to be around her.

She was nothing like any other trans person I'd met, and I couldn't guess if recommending trans related resources to her was a good idea or not.

No one in our community was prepared to help her - I think she was potentially very dangerous.

Honestly, I think that all gender identity is a mental construct. It's entirely internal and dependent on one's own perception.

I'm very sorry, but I can't agree with this either. I didn't attempt to end my life, and begin a grueling two year transition ultimately concluding with gender reassignment surgery because of some faulty mental construct - presuming you meant a psychological or social construct. You could put me in talk therapy all day long, and it would have had zero impact on the horrible wrongness I felt about my body and my life. My face, my body, and God help me, my dick - all of these things caused me enormous suffering over my life. Indeed, had I not transitioned, death was my only alternative, I could take no more.

I've had a number of cis women here suggest that I simply envy women, or that I'd find out that life as a woman wasn't better than life as a man. Of course they are right about that second part, if not the first, but all of that is irrelevant. I transitioned because I have a woman's brain in a male body. (Trans people debate the semantics of this, but I describe only my own sense of things.)

It's real damned annoying when some man talks over me, ignoring my (correct) input and doing whatever ill-conceived thing he had in mind. This happens to me plenty now. And you know what? It's a hell of a lot more pleasant than living as a man, being the one talking over some woman, and seeing the face of death every time I looked in a mirror. A lot of things that are regrettable about being a woman are still better than that.

My life is worse in every measurable material way now post transition save for one small thing - I can tolerate living it. Indeed, I love my life now. I love who I am and I live with a freedom and authenticity few can imagine.

[Ezekiel]

You've found a really diplomatic way of asking, "is it all in your head?" however, I sense no malice in your question, just academic curiosity.

I'm sorry I didn't want to sound like I'm denying your reality or anything like that. No way. I just hoped to understand more and help me clear a bit of confusion, which you and Isha both did very well.

Sorry, you are way off base here in trying to link dissociative identity disorder to those of us who do not fit neatly within the TG spectrum.

No, I wasn't trying to link it to the disorder, but to dissociation of things, say, compartmentalization in the brain. But you have explained perfectly that what you feel is no such a thing. Thank you, for that is what I was looking for, information from experience.

Gender is an internalized sense of self not a collage of feminine or masculine traits. Indeed if I were to ask you what defines you as a man and you cannot speak in terms of traits or societal upbringing based on stereotypical concepts of masculine or feminine . . . how would you define what being a man is?

Absolutely true, I would define it in the very same grounds you define your state.

Now I will say this post does confuse me slightly. You indicate you have a strong male identity yet you wish to alter you body to be more female. Normally surgical alteration to align one's birth sex physiology with a target gender is associated with being TS. Are you saying that you would alter your body to female (FFS, BAS) but still live your life as a man? Or would you live your life as a woman? If it is as a man, I would posit that your male identity is not as strong as you think.

Been through years of confusion because of this, but no, really, I am not a woman. Just like you described your sense of self through gender, that is pretty much the same I feel even if my body would have been slightly modified.

Its all about the image. What Reine said here:

And CDers are attracted to the ways that girls adorn themselves

Except a bit more extreme in my case. Who knows why, but just as there is a big scale of variation among CDers, I'm probably on one of the poles.

I didn't attempt to end my life, and begin a grueling two year transition ultimately concluding with gender reassignment surgery because of some faulty mental construct - presuming you meant a psychological or social construct

Of course I absolutely agree here, gender is ingrained in the mind, and we all deal with it how we are supossed to.

In the end, all I wanted to know with my post is if it was truly possible to switch genders given its nature of being hardwired in the brain, but now I see how you Isha and Saikotsu experience it, and I'm convinced now. Thanks for helping me understand gender-fluidity.

[Saikotsu]

I'm glad I could help explain things, Ezekiel.

@PaulaQ
I apologize, I meant no offense. I didn't mean to imply that ones internal gender is wrong or a faulty construct. When I said that gender is a mental construct, I meant that we define for ourselves what male, female, and the myriad of other genders mean based on personal and societal cues. Having experienced days where I feel disgust at my masculinity, at my male body, I know to a degree what you've been through and would never want to belittle that.

[Stephanie47]

OK, OK, OK! Will somebody please identify or explain their definition of MASCULINITY! I think it is obvious if there are actions defined as feminine, then there must be actions that define masculinity? No?

I'd bang out some of my lifelong observations, but, I got to get out of my PJ's and do the family grocery shopping. I'll be back later.

[Ally 2112]

This life style or reality that we live in can be very difficult in every spectrum .It can range from acceptance to hating what we do .In the end no matter what anyone says we have to deal with it in our own way .We are all different whether we are transitioning or just a cder
I have wondered many times am i a women trapped in a mans body or am i a man who thinks like a women .In the end i just go with what im doing easier said than done but at the moment it is working
I hope all the best to those who struggle with this i have been there and do not worry about what surveys or scientist think anymore they cannot solve what i do

[Alice Torn]

PaulaQ. I can sure understand some of the things about being a man, that are awful, and like death. Being feared, and considered a possible predator, when out alone, and women look on me as a possible predator, really, really hurts. When i am out dressed as Alice, i also have seen some fear in people i am around, like some mothers with kids, some young women, and the being despised by some men.. And, the pain of longtime friends now wanting nothing to do with me, because i wear womens clothes at times.

[PaulaQ]

I apologize, I meant no offense. I didn't mean to imply that ones internal gender is wrong or a faulty construct. When I said that gender is a mental construct, I meant that we define for ourselves what male, female, and the myriad of other genders mean based on personal and societal cues.

None taken hon.

I agree that most of the social cues for masculinity / femininity are completely arbitrary and change over time. Clothing is a great example of this.

However, there always are differences in behavior between men and women, in every society. I think our minds require these differences, arbitrary though they often are. Some of the differences are reinforced by biology - for example, the pitch of our voices is highly determined by hormones during development. But men's and women's voices differ far more by learned things like resonance, intonation - these things are learned - although physical differences in male and female anatomy make the ways men and women speak more efficient for them.

I think a lot of the more common, natural occurring differences in male and behavior are tendencies that are more efficient or easier on average for one gender or the other. For example - stoicism in men. Newsflash - there are very emotional men and very stoic women. But our hormones do make certain emotional experiences easier, on average. For example, I experience more intense emotions now - it was easier on T to suppress my feelings. (I hated this.) This in no way rigidly determined - it is just easier or more efficient to be that way. Individual differences between people overwhelm these tendencies. But look, all the threads on passing show that our minds are architected to recognize differences in gender.

So it certainly seems reasonable to me that our own internal sense of gender is built into the architecture of our minds.

As for defining masculinity - poor men, they get such a bad rap here! I like men, so I'll talk about things I feel are typically masculine, that I like anyway.
- Strength. T makes you so friggin strong. Yeah, there are women who have great physical prowess, but T is a huge advantage for building muscle. Since I started HRT, I've been shocked at how much strength I've lost.
- Facial / body hair. This varies a lot racially too, but dudes tend to be hairy - especially their faces.
- Immediate sexuality - it's all about being horny on T. My sex drive (which is still very active) is different on HRT. On T, my libido needed satisfaction when it needed it -ASAP. Now? I can just put it on the back burner, or back on the shelf. No big deal. The need for sex is just not so immediate.
- emotion - women tend to cry more easily. The estrogen vs. testosterone makes a difference here. (BTW, its wrong to view tears as weakness.) Men are more stoic. Men tend towards anger more easily - T makes you edgy. A lot of the perceived differences here are just that, perceived. Men's responses are presumed to be the superior ones, which is all kinds of screwed up.)
- Men are expected to hunt / provide / protect, women gather / nest / nurture
- Men are supposed to take the lead in the relationship, taking the initiative.

Masculinity to me is pretty old-fashioned - John Wayne. Masculine men do hard, scary, dangerous stuff without complaint because it has to be done, being strong, being protective, being calm when things are bad. (My boyfriend is a cop, so it's unsurprising I'd find those types of behaviors attractive.)

Again, I'm talking stereotypes here - individuals will vary dramatically from them. There are masculine women. Clearly there are feminine men. None of this is simple and one dimensional, it varies between identity and expression.

[pamela7]

this is a good thread, bringing out points of view and perspective with good insights, good questions, good misunderstandings, wantings to know, and openness.

As some here know, my background is one part psychotherapeutic, and i do have a very good theory of the self, personal constructs and on identity. My researches through clean client navigations have revealed really conclusively that at conception a soul enters the egg, along with the sperm, not always in perfect timing. Souls have gender, but don't need to have gender, in fact the evidence for fluid souls is widespread for those who can read the signals right.
It is perfectly possible therefore to have from conception a mismatched gender from the physical. That is one cause.

A second cause is when the self experiences a trauma (of a positive or negative nature), whereby the self as a result of foreign gender intrusion, now feels of a different gender.

Life-changing events will impact the sponge-like young selves, meaning its easy to fall into becoming a cross-dresser given the right stimuli. However these will not affect a sense of gender ID in their own right.

Human beings are naturally sexual in all orientations, so for a start de-couple sexuality from gender; our sexuality is opportunity and socially programmed by and large, eith early imprinting experiences shaping what follows.

The idea of femininity and masculinity being equally in both physical sexes' bodies is a correct perspective for me. All behaviours are possible except the obvious physical limitations e.g. birthing. All else is socially programmed.

This is the result of 15 years research with 100's of clients, and informed by my reading of the posts of our awesome forum members.

Having said that, while I'm now sure, after months of questioning, that I'm a male who likes to express his feminine (especially clothing), I also would love breasts. For me this is represented by Hapi, the egyptian god of the flood, an ancient and natural archetype of male with feminine moobs!

I have a lot more i could discuss + book on the underlying theory, but please just PM me for dialogue if you like.

xxx Pamela

[Katey888]

How does one follow souls, HRT, Egyptian gods and all that conclusive research...? Tough, but I'll have a bash.

Veronica - this has gone a bit off track from your defining paragraph...

Masculinity and femininity are elements of human nature, and as human beings we possess the capacity to feel and express all aspects of both to some degree. These, like all the other elements of human nature are subject for that degree to influences such as ....

I like what you say here - I think it explains well, for me, why we do much of the stuff we do - and a lot of other stuff we don't. The identity bit that comes next is tougher to debug and is part of the reason I came to this place almost a couple years ago because I yearn for an answer as to why my identity apparently seeks this outlet that it does. The difficult part of this is what others have alluded to: what is 'femininity' and its mirror, 'masculinity'?

So much of what has been described here, particularly in Reine's list, are societal constructs. They broadly hold well for western society today, but not so well for other cultures and periods in history. The problem we have deciphering this, is that we're all totally steeped in what those male/female roles in society are about, but I feel Reine's list misses a couple of obvious ones for me that must play a part, and that some have touched on.

The first is sexuality. Admitting that there might be something a little freaky going on sexually with us is a tough one for many here, but not surprising if you accept that we are hugely conditioned to believe that anything other than complete orthodoxy to being 100% heterosexual governs the relations of our modern world. It's bad enough that some of us may be prepared to confess to our partners that we like to express the appearance of the opposite (and generally, their) gender - but to conceive that this might have something more going on about sexuality, our self-image, our self-love, or any possibility we might be seeking to be desired in the way that a woman is...? Uh-uh... ain't gonna happen. I think there's a lot more here that may come out, but there are such barriers in accepting non-hetero behaviour, it's not going to come out in this relatively public forum (and particularly not where members' SOs also frequent... )

The other significant aspect unmentioned - but not necessarily playing a part - for women, is motherhood. The ability to create life - uniquely as a gender, and only threatened by artificial processes - although the relative traits of protection, nurture, sacrifice, etc. have been touched on. Surely something as significant as this must engender something like creation envy? I don't know, but I can only imagine it plays a part.

As for identity, I like the idea that the soul, the persona, id, spirit - whatever - is what carries the content that defines our gender too. For most folk, this happens to be aligned with physical gender: male-masculine; female-feminine. For a small minority, it's totally misaligned (transsexuals) and for another small minority (CD/ TG/ genderfluid/ andro etc.) - it's all over the frickin' show! Variable degrees of need for expression; varying degrees of frequency; varying types of expression - a weird and wonderful kaleidoscope of imagery and styles.

I feel like I'm understanding more about this when others here express similar thoughts - but I think the nature of this condition is so wound up with deep and complex persona stuff - rather than just hormones, chromosomes and genomes - that the best I can hope for is that I can construct some sort of philosophy that just helps me deal with it and achieve some sort of internal balance: my masculine with feminine side; my need to express something really outlandish from my natural, physical gender and requires all sorts of artifice to do so...

Interesting thoughts all... Now back to my wine...

Katey x

[ReineD]

The other significant aspect unmentioned - but not necessarily playing a part - for women, is motherhood. The ability to create life -

Just want to mention that men are instrumental in accomplishing this. There would be no possibility of creating life without them. It is true that women are the incubators but the incubation and lactation periods are short compared to the child-rearing years. A simplistic view is that in times past, when physical work was required in order to survive, it made sense for the stronger of the two to spend more time hunting the food or farming the land, while the weaker engaged in activities that enabled her to tend the children. But increasingly, providing for the family and rearing the child is becoming more equal, giving both parents equal opportunity to bond with the offspring.

[pamela7]

The identity bit that comes next is tougher to debug and is part of the reason I came to this place almost a couple years ago because I yearn for an answer as to why my identity apparently seeks this outlet that it does. The difficult part of this is what others have alluded to: what is 'femininity' and its mirror, 'masculinity'?
Katey x

Why would masculinity and femininity be mirrors? To me they are different aspects, independent but part of all human beings. If one were to look at this like a right-angled pair of axes, then the angle of a personal vector might simply describee one person's orientation in both. The vector might be stationary or it might move around, fluidly, it might oscillate or fluctuate.

There are also effects and influences beyond the personal - the group field. IF humanity is out of balance in terms of femininity, and if many people are closed off to this, then those of us who are open will channel this, we will take it up and express it. It may not be personal at all. Most diseases and impacts in life are not personal, only taken that way due to ego. We're part of a greater whole of humanity, that itself is part of the greater whole of nature.

Now back to my beer ;-)

[Katey888]

@Pamela7: I've obviously been spending waaay too much time in the proximity of mirrors... I think you're reading my meaning as being an opposite and I can see that's misleading as that's not what I mean - I think they are different aspects: the two that traditionally complete the human whole. I'm not sure I see them as completely independent although to me they are distinct and different - perhaps they are more so in cisgendered folk, yielding their binary nature, but not in us...

Now back to my wine....

@Reine: Of course I get that us guys get to have a hand (or other appendage) in the fun part of life creation - and then when the going gets tough, that creating, birthing, raising period falls to you GGs.... biologically, it can't really be any other way. I base my observations largely on my wife's long-term, lyrical waxing of the nature of child-bearing in carrying a child during pregnancy, the feeling of those first practical signs of another life beginning (and kicking like heck!) through the agony of childbirth for her and the ecstasy of those first few moments with her baby boys, and then the maternal bonding that continues during early rearing, right through to a persistent maternal protectiveness that many mums will carry always for their children. And I think that's reflected often in other literature and experiences and I don't feel that male nature would differ much in that our bonding is there but different (in being a doing, providing, male role-model type) but I totally feel the wonder that she has had of facilitating and growing life as part of her, that men can only participate in as - at most - an intimate bystander. I admit I do feel a twinge of both envy and curiosity at that power - the providing and later role-models in life are very society and culture dependent and for me can't compare with that total symbiosis that mother and child experience... maybe I'm unusual in that... back to that wine now...

Katey x

[ReineD]

Katey, I think that dads are just as protective of their children as mothers are. It sounds as if in your family, your wife was mostly in charge of the children, but believe me this is not the case for everyone, especially not today in dual income families. In my case, I lost custody of my youngest child to his father when he was 13 and since they moved 2,000 miles away, I only saw him a few times per year. So even the legal system, which is usually slow to catch up to social changes, no longer awards custody solely to the mothers.

The young couples I know with kids are mostly grad students. They both have an equal hand in caring for the kids which is fair, since both parents are doing course work.

[Tina_gm]

I have probably spent more time thinking about what masculinity and femininity is than any other aspect when it comes to gender issues. I find that while there is sooo much on the outside that can appear different, presentation... the actual difference between male and female, is all very subtle. It is that subtle nature though, deep down where there can be difference, and that difference is what I see in true masculine and feminine, regardless of the actual presentation and clothing worn. Just little things that naturally come to a large majority of men and women, but when it comes to those of us within the TG spectrum, we jump to the other track, so to speak.

I could say I do any particular thing, and that alone won't make me masculine or feminine. I could tally it all up, and it then becomes apparent that somewhere, I am wired a bit differently then most men, and have wiring that is more like that of most women. What I wear doesn't make me feminine, perhaps the way I look when I wear it.... but it is the why I want to wear it. Not that a desire to wear women's clothes while not being a woman makes for any actual logic. Unless of course there is something in there somewhere which deviates from that of most men, and more like a woman.

back to the subtlety again I guess, because I cannot really find any complete way of explaining how I "feel" feminine... other then to say I relate to women, and what we perceive as feminine today, as arbitrary or as subjective as that may be, somehow my brain finds its way to that particular side.

Wearing women's clothing feels right to me. walking through the women's section of stores feels right to me. I feel somehow it is for me. When women talk, and how they talk, the types of conversations they have, I can often relate to in ways most men cannot. I "get it" when they feel certain ways. Not all ways mind you, but far more than most men. I have natural mannerisms, and have had them all my life that are what we would consider feminine, at least today, in western culture. It is not simply that I sit, stand, walk, wave my hand or any other way my mannerisms may be that makes me feminine.... not really, but that it naturally happens in ways more like most women then most men. Part of my core is feminine in nature. I don't know why, but it just is. There is not any one thing that can truly describe it and make it so. It is just a totality of my being which aligns me in many ways more like a woman then a man.

[ReineD]

This is food for thought for everyone.

I'm posting a link to a video showing the two recent female graduates of the elite Army Ranger course, in an attempt to eliminate the things that men and women do have in common, so we can focus on and discuss the differences. The women are seated at a table with their fellow male graduates. But even though everyone is wearing fatigues and has buzz cuts, we know which are the two females and we know they are feminine compared to the males. The only clues we have are physical: their voices, their smaller stature, their more delicate facial features. We cannot determine they are women in any other way - not by their clothes or their performance in Ranger school. And they have the same focus and determination as the men, their faces are no more animated when they speak than males.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/20/us/wom...ranger-course/

Gendermutt, when you give examples of feeling comfortable with women, you mention wearing women's clothing, walking through the women's section of stores, joining in on women's conversations, and understanding women's emotions. I am not saying you do not feel more comfortable with women, but the things you mention are not applicable to all women. Do you think you would feel comfortable hanging out with my son's SO? She is a sports trainer and does not miss a professional sports game. She isn't into clothes, makeup, etc. She doesn't particularly like to shop. Yet, she is feminine by virtue of having small features, no body hair, and a soft voice. It is true that women go through phases of adorning themselves more than men, but this is to satisfy the requirements of the age-old male/female dynamics together with meeting social standards. Fundamentally, hormones dictate that men pursue. And women adorn themselves so the men can find them! . The other things you mention: non-CD men can and do shop comfortably in women's stores for their wives, they're not embarrassed to do so, they also can feel comfortable talking to women and they can understand them. You also mention female mannerisms. I don't know what female mannerisms are, other than the physical differences between the sexes. We do walk differently because we have different centers of gravity. Some women gesticulate when they talk, but some men do as well. Men don't tend to cross their legs as much, but isn't this for comfort due to the different anatomies between our legs? So again, the fundamental differences are physical?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Veronica, There is a lot more to femininity than just dressing up and looking pretty.