Bathrooms, Discontinuity and Our Community

[Zooey]

This came up in another thread, and rather than derail the conversation there I'm starting this thread. I've tried to write a similar post in the past, but the way I wrote about it was a bit problematic, and so I'm trying again. Bathroom rights not the main topic here, but it is a useful and widely discussed example to use.

Pretty much everybody on this forum, except for the cisgender women, lives under the trans* umbrella, and is considered to be at a point somewhere on the transgender spectrum. The common narrative is that this spectrum is a continuous one, and that there is some meaningful and infinitely subdivisible progression across it. That is to say, things near each other on the spectrum are functionally similar, and morph smoothly in their nature. This is like the electromagnetic spectrum, where frequency is a continuous function, and is a fundamental characteristic of the wave.

spectrum.jpg

I would suggest that our spectrum is more akin to things like the autism spectrum, which is in fact a collection of conditions and disorders that are lumped together for the purposes of organizing research, and is only made somewhat smooth by using things like "severity" as the variable (rather than any characteristic intrinsic to the thing itself).

There are wild discontinuities in the trans* community. The one that comes up on this forum all the time is the difference between CD men and TS women. I believe strongly that there are some "CDs" who are, in fact, TS women that haven't realized it yet. I also believe there are plenty of people who are "just CDs". All of that is fine.

What I find frustrating, is when people talk simultaneously about how we are the same, while so clearly demonstrating that they come from a fundamentally different place, with fundamentally different motivations for what they do. All of those identities are perfectly great in their own ways, but our spectrum is not continuous, and assuming that there is a smooth continuum of experience within it is simply false.

In recent weeks/months, I have seen a lot of discussion in threads about bathrooms, locker rooms, etc. Here is the particular example that reminded me of this last night. I don't mean to pick particularly on pamela7, as there have been plenty of others who've participated in these discussions - this is just the example I have handy.

...but I'm also curious - would you consider yourself allowed to use the ladies restroom at that point? (in reference to having an orchiectomy)

If you have male genitalia use the male restroom, period. Once you've had it chopped off, use the ladies restroom.

From http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post3805806

I'll admit that I'm having a hard time understanding how to square these posts up, especially given that this thread is in the TS forum.

@Zooey, probably. I can hypothesize but I won't know until I face it in the flesh. As a eunuch one is allowed in the harem. Maybe not until the facial hair is gone.

Because of my identity, I simply cannot understand this logic. This is not about pamela's views being invalid or bad, although I certainly disagree with them. Clearly pamela7 does not identify as a woman, and as such is capable of holding radically different views on e.g. my usage of restrooms that I find it impossible to even fathom. I am a woman, so I use the women's restroom. Men are not allowed in the women's restroom. The only way I could see pamela7's side is to acknowledge that I am not a woman, which is literally impossible for me.

What is the definition of a woman, and similarly for a man, for somebody in pamela's position? Is any man who has had testicle removal, perhaps due to cancer treatment, allowed in the women's restroom? Does that make him a woman? Is any woman with, for example, PCOS-induced facial hair growth disallowed? Does that make her a man?

I would say the answer to all of those is clearly "no", but to me, this is the kind of thought process that so clearly marks segments of our community as fundamentally different in nature. We are all transgender, but to say that our identities are all similar and continuous in anything more than a superficial way is just bad science IMO.

[Dana44]

Wow Zooey, I must say that I remember that particular post and the posts around it. Everybody in the trans umbrella agreed that something should be accomplished by the powers to be. Yet, we all agreed and stated that we used the woman's facilities at various places. I think none of us in the MTF forum thinks unkindly of the TS people and hope they don't of us. But yeah a bone headed comment like that hurts and we know that also. It did not reflect how we all thought. My goodness it would be really hard for me in a skirt, heels and totally looking fem to walk in the males bathroom. Talk about danger. wow. In posts I use this rule typically. If you can't say something nice or informative don't say it.

[Rachel Smith]

Great explanation Zooey. I work for the USPS and under their current rules of the work place I am not allowed to use the women's restroom, I am trying to change that but it is a slow process. Nothing makes me more uncomfortable then when I have to go into the men's room. Hell I didn't feel like I "belonged" in there before I transitioned let alone now. That is what most people don't understand for us it is just not natural. They don't/can't understand that we really are women on the inside. I think once they, the cisgenders, have seen you as male to them you will ALWAYS be a male even though we don't now nor have ever felt like one.

[arbon]

Rachel, your transitioned and still requiring you to use mens room? With all the changes in gov. policy on this issue (even mandating that schools cannot do that) that can't be legal for them at the USPS can it?

[becky77]

Heavy stuff!

If only internal identity was clearly visible, it would save so much confusion and arguments.

Using MtF as an example: The vast majority of CDers identity as male, but I imagine many (if stigma was removed), would live and dress as women most of the time.
This doesn't make them TS or have any bearing on their identity but it is a huge part of their personality expression.
I think that's where the confusion of a sliding scale comes into affect.
Because they are led to believe if they desire to live full-time like that they must be TS (or fantasists), which is simply not true.

One day we will all understand a man can desire to look and dress like a woman without his masculinity being called into question, it's a very long way off though.

Us binary TS are much fewer in number in comparison, our need to be who we are is so strong we face the stigma head on regardless and only because of that do we seemingly appear to have greater visibility.

If 1000 red Ants came to the surface but 1 million blue Ants never left the burrows underground, we would think all ants are red.

I find the bathroom/changing room debate to be tricky.

If I walk into a female changing room and so does a male identified crossdresser, visibly how can you tell the difference?
But if the crossdresser removes their clothes they are a man, they think like a man. Therefore there is a man in the woman's changing room. If you think of it like that it's unfair.

I think some crossdressers are so wrapped up in the experience, they are not being respectful of the boundary they just crossed.

If you are a man that likes wearing women's clothes, you are still a man. Maybe you shouldn't be going into a woman's area.

I know that will annoy people but it's the cold hard truth. It's not a game it's people's lives and feelings.

It's this disregard for boundaries that makes genuine TS woman suffer possible discrimination.

[pamela7]

@Zooey, I agree its not a spectrum, nothing like. It's a complex multidimensional vector space of different aspects and personal collectives, ancestral and social influences giving rise to present selves and associated worldviews.

I not worried that my post was taken as example, this is not a bathroom thread. My logic is the same, or close enough, to Becky77's eloquent re-explanation. I respect you think my perception there is a male one. My concern though is I feel, a feminine one; putting the concerns of OTHERS before the concern of the one. If there is a pervert in the ladies restroom, and "he" wears a dress as cover for it, where is the protection and recourse for the ladies under threat? Out of respect of this danger, bathrooms are gendered. The only physical check is the presence of genitalia, and in germany chemical castration is used to allow rapists out of jail, so the Eunuch scenario, with a long history of being allowed in the seraglio, works from my worldview logic. I accept its not universal, politically correct here and perhaps a minority view among the CD males here. Remember men tend to think of themselves first and others maybe, possibly as a distinct afterthought. IMHO who goes where is a matter of caring for the fears of the many.

I'd say don't take the word "spectrum" too literally. An umbrella at least provides a 2D surface of coverage, think more like a many-dimensional umbrella. Happy to discuss this further.

xxx Pamela

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Pamela you consistently throw out some really sexist old school comments...the latest is above

Women care about others, men are selfish... its classic stuff i've heard from many cd's of age...its like being a woman is idyllic and men are pigs...you should talk that out in therapy it might help you understand yourself better... men and women are complex and multidimensional..we are not stereotypes

there are two questions..

1..
should women be able to use women's restrooms??? no matter how they look?? no matter their body parts??
2..
should men be able to use women's restrooms??? in what cases is this reasonable???

its too bad that both sides get caught up in the "Danger" aspect...its a red herring..its not about something bad happening..

the "issue" is that women have a right to womens spaces... its pretty simple...and unless you want to argue there should be no women's space, its really hard to argue there should be special cases where men can invade this space..
its a totally reasonable "right" for a woman to pull down her pants and pee and feel she is in a private woman's space... and the fact a man feels unsafe doesnt mean he can do whatever he wants to feel safe no matter what anybody thinks..

so by conflating two really different issues, its a mess... and we lose... nationally people poll consistently against us...
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._sex_restrooms
and a big reason is that they are look at it as question 2...

transsexual women suffer the brunt of it... because we go out every single day, everywhere, all the time...and for us to have a bathroom issue is an existentially relevant moment...its being invalidated in a massive way... being denied or challenged on access to a place that i BELONG IN is different than feeling unsafe in the men's room because of your CHOICE to dress that day..

i can't get worked up with a cd feeling unsafe using the men's room because he's shopping pretty..to me that's a temporary thing, and it seems very reasonable to say the choice to dress as female comes with a potty issue, and what's wrong with using private/family restrooms at public places...there are tons of them...

i didn't read the houston specific ordinance...
in the end its just too much work for people to parse all this out and we are all lumped together...

i frankly don't see any way out of it...if you are ts, you got a problem...you can have your legal documents and still have a problem... and its pathetic....and a big cause of it is the insistent invalidation we get from the crossdresser community that conflates their very real problem with our very real problem even though they are not the same..

[Jennifer-GWN]

I tend to try to simplify things down to the basics and let the beaurcrats and administrators pontificate about policies they all too often have no real understanding of.

If I need to go I'm going in the woman's washroom policy or no policy. On a tangent discussion regarding lines for the woman's and the suggestion to use the male restroom aside today this is a space I'll not enter.

Now if someone wants to debate my need to use the washroom and which washroom it should be and I need to go I'll be quite happy to pee in their shoes on the spot because when I gotta go I gotta go.

Now this may sound like a bold statement...

I'm speaking from experience having pee'd on the spot in a hotel lobby debating with someone the directions to the washroom.

I identify as a woman, there was no question from my clothing I was presenting as a woman, ts/cd/ and other terms aside they are our debates most muggles don't know how to parse the terms at the best of times which brings this back to policy bureaucracy which I'll admit is language tough mainly because it's lawyers and policy driven.

In the end that person at the hotel will likely not want to have that debate again with anyone as my bladder was inordinately FULL at the time and the lobby was a the sole recipient of most of it.

Now back to the debate...apologies for the interruption.

Cheers... Jennifer

[Angela Campbell]

They have to come up with some determining factor for who uses a ladies room. To me it seems simple. Whatever is on the ID should be it. If you are living as a woman, then you use the women's room. Although you should be aware that some etiquette is required such as sitting down and not staring at others

the charts and all are interesting but I am simply not qualified to remark. Perhaps no one is.

[pamela7]

It's a complex multidimensional vector space of different aspects and personal collectives, ancestral and social influences giving rise to present selves and associated worldviews.

@KaitlynMichelle: what part of this does not say we're complex and multidimensional beings? I'll be an old-fashioned sexist bigot just for you though. :-)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

...... I respect you think my perception there is a male one. My concern though is I feel, a feminine one; putting the concerns of OTHERS before the concern of the one ....

this part..

your concerns for others does not make you feminine or female...

[PaulaQ]

If there is a pervert in the ladies restroom, and "he" wears a dress as cover for it, where is the protection and recourse for the ladies under threat? Out of respect of this danger, bathrooms are gendered.

Bathrooms are gendered because we are squeamish about bodily functions, and there's this still present idea that men can't control themselves around women in certain circumstances - if they wear the wrong clothes, are "exposed" (in a stall with a door!) in a restroom, etc. So we segregate. Rape is generally about power, more than sex, so it's unlikely a rapist would crossdress to rape a woman in a restroom. There are an enormous number of ways for creepy, pervy guys to prey on women that are way simpler to accomplish than dressing up and entering a women's room, where women are ensconced in enclosed stalls. (My boyfriend is a cop, and deals with sexual predators at times, unfortunately. Mostly child sexual predators. BTW, if you want to protect vulnerable people in restrooms, disallow straight, middle-aged men from accessing public restrooms, at least based on the guys my boyfriend has dealt with.) There really aren't any known cases of something like that happening - and while probably anything you can imagine does happen SOMEWHERE - it is at most a vanishingly rare problem.

The idea of restricting bathroom access differently between CDs and TSs is just highly impractical. Because when I started my transition, and went fulltime, I had no business being in the men's room. Yeah, I still had a penis, but mostly I passed fairly well, and it would've been disruptive and dangerous to enter a men's room. Indeed, differentiating between me, and a CD, would've been next to impossible. Yeah, I had a letter from a therapist saying I was in transition, and that I HAD to present this way for medical purposes, but it's pretty onerous to make people show papers to pee.

The most practical solution, other than unisex restrooms, is to simply observe that people should use the restroom they are more comfortable with, based on their gender identity and gender presentation. There are CDs who pass better than some trans women. Trying to distinguish between the two would simply result in the criteria for restroom access being "passability", which is incredibly problematical for many of us.

CDs basically have the problems of trans women early in transition. That's why we care which bathrooms CDs are allowed to use.

[pamela7]

you're right Paula. Personally I'd have no signage and unisex facilities, but then i'd be happy with walking round naked and that's yet another social control, huh. I was speaking for the applied logic of society, but really, there's no logic, it's just as it is until we change it.

[Claire Cook]

We seemed to have got away from Zooey's point about the spectrum and got back to the restroom thing. So to carry Zooey's analogy (which I love) a bit further: consider quantum physics: it looks like a continuous spectrum, but individual atoms emit at specific wavelengths, and what we see is a melding of all of that.

Or maybe we should just heed Kermit!

"Someday we'll find it, the rainbow connection..."



.... and oh yes I use the restroom that is appropriate to my presentation....

[Eryn]

The unfortunate fact is that most people are hung up on clearly definable boundaries. Some focus on genitalia, others on documentation and still others on crazy stuff like chromosomes. The fact is that there are many factors that determine our gender and there is no simple litmus test that can be easily applied to all. That is why many of us use the concept of the spectrum to emphasize that there are many different ways that we can be.

I identify as TS, but some think that I'm less than that because I'm not yet full time, haven't had surgery, etc. I move about in public easily as female and am accepted everywhere I go as female, but by the all the above measures many, even some in our community, would force me into the men's room. Doing that immediately outs me and negates my ability to be perceived as female in places where I have previously had no problem.

Whether the spectrum is continuous or has distinct quanta is irrelevant. We're not going to come up with a bunch of different restrooms to accommodate any granularity of the spectrum. We're stuck with two and we pretty much have to determine for ourselves which one fits us best. What is written into the law only affects the ease with which others may persecute us for making the choice that is best for us.

[LeaP]

There is identity and there are restroom rules (law, regulation, custom ... whatever). They are not the same thing. The latter hang on whatever criteria we collectively "agree." I agree with the spirit of Kaitlyn's comments re: women's spaces, but it too is too broad. Access to restrooms - or ANY legally privileged action, for that matter - is not a matter of self-evident action proceeding from definitions or identity. Those are often the starting point, but even that isn't a certainty.

Access to restrooms and locker rooms in places of public accommodation is a question of reasonable persuasion to influence (or pressure) the rule makers, and that's that. In this matter, the so-called spectrum is just another angle to that end.

[Badtranny]

the whole restroom thing is pure paranoia

I'll bet you a dollar that every single one of those concerned gals would have a heart attack if I was hanging out in the Men's room with their husbands.

Bathroom privilege is passing privilege and denying people the right to use the bathroom they feel most comfortable in is basically just mean for the sake of being mean. If a man gets caught preying on women in the restroom than the penalty should be severe. Otherwise, let the people pee in peace.

[Brooklyn]

I'd imagine that those who research transgender people have many intersecting axes to examine, and not just a linear spectrum from say, fetishists on one end to kids like Jazz Jennings on the other. Many of the other trans people I know from my local support group, for example, seem cut from a different cloth than me. Don't you have that experience in the Bay Area, Zooey? Interestingly, the non-binary types often have wildly different views and personalities from the trans-men and trans-women. And good luck telling an early-transitioner that a middle-aged cross-dresser is transgender, because those experiences are so clearly different... right?

As far as restrooms go, there is a big difference in my mind between using individual water-closets and shared changing rooms. But the people who are stripping us of our dignity and rights here in Texas and elsewhere are not going to leave it to my best judgement to navigate which spaces I enter.

[Rogina B]

In the state of Florida,like most states,there is no law that states which bathroom a person must use. It is only a big deal if you make it one. "The bathroom issue" is only brought up by the fear mongers and haters that want genetic women to join their cause by scaring them. Any pushback to T inclusion in Human Rights Ordinances bring on the bathroom issue with no negative facts to back up their fear spreading . Here in Jacksonville Florida we will soon have an HRO up for City Council vote so we deal with the" bathroom myth" daily in our push. Mind your business and pee where you want...

[becky77]

The unfortunate fact is that most people are hung up on clearly definable boundaries.

I'm not saying don't use the female restroom needs must sometimes, I'm saying respect the boundary you just crossed into. Be dignified, sit down to pee etc.

I remember being in a shop and seeing a small group of CDers out for a fun day at the mall, they go into the ladies changing room giggling trying on loads of clothes they had no intention of buying and you could even hear them using their camera.
It's disrespectful, you go in the female changing room to try on something you intend to buy and that's it, it's not a funhouse for their CD kicks.

[Zooey]

I'd imagine that those who research transgender people have many intersecting axes to examine, and not just a linear spectrum from say, fetishists on one end to kids like Jazz Jennings on the other.

I certainly hope so, although what literature I have been exposed to doesn't necessarily suggest that very strongly. I'm not talking about people actually doing science though - I'm talking about the way the community talks about it, and in particular, the way the community here talks about it.

Many of the other trans people I know from my local support group, for example, seem cut from a different cloth than me. Don't you have that experience in the Bay Area, Zooey? Interestingly, the non-binary types often have wildly different views and personalities from the trans-men and trans-women. And good luck telling an early-transitioner that a middle-aged cross-dresser is transgender, because those experiences are so clearly different... right?

The way I would really like to respond to your post requires making a distinction that is disallowed here, and not unreasonably, so instead I'll be careful and respond this way.

Yes, I definitely have that experience here in the bay area. Honestly, all else being equal (which admittedly it almost never is) I think that the non-binary folks have it far harder than most folks, because cis people understand what it means to be a man or a woman. They may not agree with our right to be what we are, but they know what it means. They very rarely understand the infinitely variable and unique snowflakes that are non-binary identities. Honestly, I struggle with understanding them in some cases, so I can sympathize. Generally speaking though, I find that the non-binary folks (who do their version of transition and live openly as whatever/whoever they are) tend to have a superset of the understanding of the rest. In the bay area I find that this often comes with a bit of an activist streak, but whatevs.

We all have different opinions on details, but in my experience the dividing line when it comes to fundamental differences in perspective is drawn between people in the community who are transgender by way of asserting an internally-focused gender identity that is out of alignment with their birth sex, and those who are transgender by way of projecting the image of an alternative externally-focused non-aligned gender identity.

There are plenty of people on both sides of that line who try to be understanding of what the other side goes through, because they're good people. At the end of the day though, in my experience, I can say the exact same words to two perfectly nice people on either side of that line, and those will be two very different conversations. Put another way, I've met a bunch of people on my side of the line (the internal identity side) speaking in occasionally difficult to follow accents, but on the other side of the line it all sounds like Welsh to me, and I don't even think Welsh people properly understand each other's Welsh sometimes (both IRL and in my terrible metaphor). :P

The same is true of talking to cis people, of course, but they're not who I'm talking about here.

[Kate T]

I remember being in a shop and seeing a small group of CDers out for a fun day at the mall, they go into the ladies changing room giggling trying on loads of clothes they had no intention of buying and you could even hear them using their camera.
It's disrespectful, you go in the female changing room to try on something you intend to buy and that's it, it's not a funhouse for their CD kicks.

Come on Becky. I've seen this sort of behaviour from girls and women as well. That's not even talking about the women who take a dress, wear it with the tags still on and then return it for a full refund. Ok the second behaviour is just essentially illegal but you get my drift. My wife and I will go clothes shopping and try on a dozen dresses, tops or skirts and not buy any of them mainly because they don't fit / look nothing like they did on the rack. Are you telling me you've NEVER tried on a branded dress (Andrea Crawford or Carla Zampati or similar) just to see what you look like in it? Even though you Know you really can't afford it? Are you / they really hurting anyone?

[Marcelle]

Well . . . having lived the bathroom police recently, I can say it is very disconcerting to have someone question your right to pee in a place you should be able to access as a trans woman. The individual did not differentiate, she did not ask are you CD part-time or TS full time, she just insulted and embarrassed me in front of a crowd. I left, hurt and confused but did go back and set things right as in Ontario, I have the legal right. However it does not stop people from being mean.

For me, I use the women's rest room when I have to because that is who I am . . . a woman. When I felt I was CD and gender fluid, I used the family bathrooms or single seat toilets when out and about because they were available and the women's when an emergency called for it. At work I use the women's restrooms but the one space I am cognizant of is the locker room. I have not and will most likely not request access as I am aware my anatomy could make women very uncomfortable in such a private place (no HRT or surgery). So we have arranged for a private changing area with access to the male shower facilities when needed. A bit awkward but most have adjusted and to be honest all I want to do is work out and go about my day.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Eryn]

I'm not saying don't use the female restroom needs must sometimes, I'm saying respect the boundary you just crossed into. Be dignified, sit down to pee etc.

I've no argument with that, but I've never seen behavior to the contrary by any TG person. Is it worth our effort to worry about a theoretical person who may not exist at all? We're playing into our enemy's hands if we do that.

I remember being in a shop and seeing a small group of CDers out for a fun day at the mall, they go into the ladies changing room giggling trying on loads of clothes they had no intention of buying and you could even hear them using their camera.
It's disrespectful, you go in the female changing room to try on something you intend to buy and that's it, it's not a funhouse for their CD kicks.

I will disagree with that. Stores actively encourage "recreational try-on" of clothing. They know that even if you didn't intend to buy something, the likelihood of making a purchase goes up with time of exposure and number of garments. At many stores, the saleswoman will keep bringing me items to try until I leave the dressing room.

Dressing rooms are not temples, they are places of business and part of the business is amusing the customers. "Try on only those things you intend to buy" is a very male way of thinking!

[becky77]

Dressing rooms are not temples, they are places of business and part of the business is amusing the customers. "Try on only those things you intend to buy" is a very male way of thinking!

I forgot people take everything literally on here. I try on a range of things but the idea is to find something, not treat the shop like fancy dress.

'Male way of thinking' lol, I'm guessing that's intended as an insult.

A couple of my friends love shopping but most find the whole trying on thing a bore, I best tell them they are not adhering to the stereotype.

Please tell me Erin why you seem to take everything personal and start an argument?? I don't know if you do it on purpose or you're just misunderstood.