asking a DADT SO to go for therapy

[Adelaide]

I tried the therapist route before, following my SO's suggestion. She thought it would help me stop CDing. On the contrary, it made me feel more confident than ever. I felt so comfortable with the therapist that I dressed up at the 3rd session. The therapist invited my SO to join us for our 5th session. She mentioned to my SO that I was really a beautiful woman inside & out. That she should accept me for who I really am, and also support me, embrace it and participate! I was ecstatic...until my SO blew up in front of the therapist. That was the end of the session....and CDing has been a major source of disagreement between my SO and me ever since...
Hopefully, my "therapist " story will not happened to anybody here on the forum....

[LelaK]

I wanted to get counseling with my SO. She didn't like the idea, but she tentatively consented a couple of times. Then I found a "counselor" who makes Youtube videos and he said counseling is not a good idea, if you want to stay in your relationship, because they have a poor track record on that score. He said couples often end up breaking up after doing counseling. He said he helps couples stay together, if one of them wants to. So that made me leary of getting counseling.

[Eryn]

Tiptoeing as gently as I can...

Like it or not, a DADT relationship carries with it the implication that the CDing spouse is doing something wrong, that should be hidden and not talked about. By accepting that relationship the CDing spouse is validating the implication.

This is not, in my opinion, a healthy way to carry on a marriage. When a person feels it is more important to maintain their idealized image of how they want their spouse to be than it is to know and love the actual person it does not indicate health.

That said, it is unlikely that someone who is convinced that their CDing spouse is doing something wrong will be amenable to change. It's very sad, but that person's lack of empathy will block any attempt to reach her. It's a Korean situation, where the war has been fought to a standstill, but hostilities lie just below the surface.

[sometimes_miss]

My wife and I initially looked online and found a therapist that specialized in both gender issues and substance abuse (my wife's mom was an alcoholic); she was very accepting, and was helpful. However, she got my wife into support groups where she started seeing everyone who WASN'T in the support group as someone who was trying to abuse her. First she blamed her mom; then her dad for enabling her mom; then it was her brothers, then she saw abusive behavior in her coworkers and boss; then it became me. Everyone had become her enemies, she looked for potential abuse 'behind every tree'; and, of course, she found it. She was going some type of
codependent meetings every free night. When I suggested that perhaps she was overdoing it, her response was to accuse me of trying to get her to stop going to her meetings, and that she was warned that i would try to do that by the people at her meetings, and that it was because i was trying to control her life. Things kept spiriling down out of control, the therapist didn't know what to do, and we eventually wound up in a divorce. Of course it was all my fault, and she blackmailed me for our assets during the divorce by threatening to out me to my family, friends and coworkers, and she had the pictures of me dressed as a woman, so she could do it.

So it may help, it may not. It all depends on the couple. If she thinks that it's YOUR problem, then it probably will be a tough road ahead of you, even if she does go with you. At least that was my experience.

[char GG]

Why is it that because the SO is unaccepting, they are the one with the problem?

From my limited experience, it's not the so much the "dressing" that causes an SO's lack of acceptance but the behavior that sometimes accompanies the dressing. If that is the case, who needs the therapy?

Intolerance usually comes with a reason behind it. The reason needs to be examined before it can be determined that the SO has the problem.

[NicoleScott]

In a DADT relationship there is no implication that the CDing spouse is doing something wrong, as Eryn suggested. Over the years I have read many posts mischaracterizing DADT and then telling us why DADT doesn't work. In the OP, suggesting therapy for a DADT spouse is itself a violation of DADT. There is a mutually acknowledged incompatibility between his need to crossdress and her need to see him as her man - all man - and DADT is the arrangement that accommodates both. DADT isn't for everyone, but it works for those who make it work. There is no implication in marriage vows that both parties must be fully engaged in everything together. We are still individuals. I like the go fish-clean fish example.

[pamela7]

@Suzie, thank you for your lengthy reply. I agree we do all have different perspectives, our world are shaped by nature and nurture to make unique beings with vastly diverse perspectives. If I were intrigued I would ask more questions and make less judgements.

My relative indifference to others' perceptions of me (i'm not completely invulnerable :-)), comes from years of processing that removed most of life's conditioning. I know we can only see our reflection in others, I know that no-one's going to see me as i am unless they're a buddha, but what i can ask, and normally do have in agreement with people with whom i relate, that we do accept each other as we are, that we don't judge. [It's a diversion but the "game" of "crime and punishment" is played out in a fractal worldwide and i try not to be part of if.]

As Nikki says, only love is the basis. What I find in the DADT is that the person loved the image of her "lumberjack man" on the outside, not the pink lacy's hidden beneath the rugged exterior. It seems to me its not the whole person/being being loved. Welshgirl loves me wherever my TG goes, and the love goes both ways. The "go see a therapist" is done lovingly, but then we can help eachother there by using our own process.

It took months-to-years of me proving that we would talk and sort and process before it normed and the deeper trust and acceptance emerged from realising how emotions and projections work and how to escape the patterns inherited mainly from parenting.

Going back to the perceived indifference, while I do put it out there like that, given a tough shell, the sensitive inners still have to deal with. So while someone may make a comment i know says more of them, I take the time to look inside me too. What the world shows me, is me, so i do my best to understand what i'm being shown, and become ever more accepting of others.

The stories i could tell - recovering drugs barons going straight, abusers reformed into loving males, torture abandoned for clean question patterns. I reserve my jousting for tilting at authorities by and large, :-) xxx

PS I'd still like to see a good argument for DADT

[Lorileah]

PS I'd still like to see a good argument for DADT

because when mama's not happy...nobody is happy?

[pamela7]

ah, so it's emotional blackmail and sex for good behaviour, huh?

[Eryn]

In a DADT relationship there is no implication that the CDing spouse is doing something wrong, as Eryn suggested....I like the go fish-clean fish example.

In the DADT relationships I have observed the enforced separation is far more than non-participation. It often extends to prohibition of any mention of CDing or sign that the partner engages in the practice. I doubt that any spouse would go so far as to prohibit any mention of fishing or to force the fishing spouse to keep their tackle and boat completely out of sight lest their friends and neighbors get some inkling that a fisherman might live there.

Since CDing is handled in a manner so different from any other activity there is an obvious implication that the spouse thinks that CDing is wrong.

[NicoleScott]

OK, Eryn, fair enough. In the fishing example there is no prohibition against talking about it. But the point of the example is that one person's interest or passion doesn't require participation or acceptance from the spouse.
But there is no obvious implication that the wife thinks CDing is wrong, it's just not in the best interest of their relationship for her to see her man dressed as a woman, so she chooses not to see it while knowing he does it privately.
Most importantly, if DADT works for a couple, then it works, if only for them.

[JessieA]

I think my idea of what a good therapist would do are a little different. I do not expect a therapist to fix or change someone's mind. Their job is to help you identify the feelings and reason behind them so they can be sorted out for some to better deal with. You could very well reach the same decision but at least understand why and where to go from there. I think too many people have the idea when you suggest talking to therapist you are saying your broken and this person will fix you the way I want. If some how you can over come these feeling you might have better luck at getting some people talk to someone.

[pamela7]

yes JessieA,

The idea is the therapist enables the client e.g. to discover the origins of a response, it's never about fixing the person, its rather about helping the symptoms(signals) to do their job, to reveal the big bang origins of the background radiations of life.

[Kate T]

I dislike DADT. I think it originates in a lack of communication that I personally could not cope with in an intimate relationship.

BUT beware Pamela (and others). Beware you do not fall into the trap of patronising an SO. You do not know that couples circumstances. Maybe the CD individual is also very selfish and thinks of nothing other than him/herself when crossdressing. Maybe the SO is treated like something of an optional extra, a handbag if you like to complete the fantasy for the CD? Maybe the CD cannot express their feelings or needs without either getting angry or sulking (both situations have been described in relationships on these forums).

So, if you and your SO are in a DADT relationship, DONT tell them or ask them to go to therapy. You BOTH need therapy, together. DADT is a communication problem between two individuals, not one individuals problem to be "fixed" like a stuck door.

[Eryn]

...So, if you and your SO are in a DADT relationship, DONT tell them or ask them to go to therapy. You BOTH need therapy, together. DADT is a communication problem between two individuals, not one individuals problem to be "fixed" like a stuck door.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, but it is a tough nut to crack. A spouse who believes that CDing is deviant behavior will view any attempt to sway her view as trying to make her into a deviant as well, similar to an drug addict attempting to get their spouse hooked on drugs.

I do know some married couples who are not TG who are also very disconnected from each other. They even go so far as to have separate vacations and won't be in communication for days! So, lack of communication isn't just a TG issue.

[Allsteamedup]

Quite often when SOs do make it as far as some support they still find it difficult to express their confusion, anger, emotional distress and bewilderment to another woman. If you go to a therapist you at least want to feel that you have a point of view or something to say and bewilderment and confusion prevent this.

The notion that the SO seeking therapy will change her mind is amusing. Does the OP not realise that a therapist could equally reinforce any misconceptions expressed, that the person needing the therapy would then become himself....

What has happened to those seeking counselling is that they get an expansive overview of the situation which then has to be reduced to what the cder sees as where he fits. So the SO gets a huge amount of information which goes well beyond that her partner wishes to dress and then they both have to work out what it means for them. This does not always reach a better situation than they had in the first place!

Now that it has become acceptable on here for a SO to say she does not wish at the present time to be accepting perhaps some cders might like to take a closer look at this. At support groups you have like-minded friends who are very supportive; it is not that you are alone.

As a footnote I would like to add that a better situation can arrive at the twinkling of an eye. It would appear to be a matter of circumstances and timing.

And to Adelaide, whatever it was your wife shouted at the therapist, at least it left you in no doubt as to her feelings on your problems. That gave you something to work with.

[Tina_gm]

Pamela- you asked earlier in this thread for someone to make an argument for DADT. I don't think anyone is going to be able to produce an argument that DADT is the better way to go for a CDer. Perhaps though, it is a compromise of a difficult situation, often made in part by the CDer who did not reveal for many years, or was discovered after many years. The partner was deceived. They were not given the truth, or the information about their partner they should have had when making the decision to commit to a relationship.

If there is one thing that sometimes really bugs me with attitudes on here when it comes to wives and partners, is that they should just deal. A CDer lives a lie for years and years, finally comes out and then when their partner is having difficulties of having the dynamics of the marriage or relationship changed on them without any consent, the answer is to tell the partner to go to therapy to get fixed??

DADT isn't the best way for a CDer, not usually. Although there have been a few on here who have said they prefer their wife or GF not to be involved.... Sometimes, it is a workable solution given the circumstances. I do not have a true DADT arrangement with my wife, we do talk, but I like many, revealed after marriage. It didn't go over to well. Not just because there is a dynamic of me that she never knew (although that one is not easy for my wife by any means) but also the lack of trust as a consequence for the years of deception. The feelings of betrayal. My wife not knowing the man she married the way she thought she did. I did that. The problems are every bit mine as they are hers for the difficulties. I caused all of this with my deception. I take it upon myself to offer limitations I might not otherwise have with my dressing as a result of what I did. I owe my wife that. I do not dress in her presence. If I had told her from the beginning, and allow her to make a decision based on the whole truth rather than a deception, then I could give her the ultimatum of this is who I am, take it or leave it. If you are having problems with it, go to therapy because you are having problems dealing with it but don't want to leave me....

We are asking a lot from our partners when it comes to CDing. And not just to buck all of the society norms and expectations. We are also asking them to go against the grain of what they were literally born with. Partners of CDers literally have to be able to re write their own internal born genetic programming. Some are more capable of going opposite of society and to be able to deal with their own internal stuff than others. CDing is a very difficult thing for most people to deal with, especially partners of CDers.

Lastly, for those who may be somewhat new on here, maybe new to CDing itself, and the needs are not great.... say just a few hours of some dress up time every couple of weeks or maybe even less. Otherwise they are fine with their male identity, I think these people shouldn't be thinking or feeling like they need some grand acceptance from their partners. Life for the most part will not change much, so for these people, a DADT arrangement is hardly going to change much for them anyway. Why rock a boat that sails mostly in calm waters?? If a person finds their needs to be greater, that their identity is as much female or perhaps more, then perhaps getting past a DADT arrangement is probably in their best interest.

[Krisi]

"My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance."

That's a pretty intolerant statement in itself. Suppose I decided to have a mistress and keep her in our house. Should my wife be tolerant of that? Most folks would say no, she doesn't have to tolerate that.

Suppose I started drinking heavily and beating my wife. Again, should my wife be tolerant of that? Most folks would say no, she doesn't have to tolerate that.

It may be difficult for crossdressers to understand this, but many people think crossdressing is perverted or weird. Many think it's a mental illness.

The bottom line is, the DADT relationship is a compromise between acceptance and divorce or giving up the crossdressing. If it works for some people, why would you change it?

[ReineD]

the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.

There are two forms of DADT:

1. "I know that you crossdress and I realize you need a wardrobe and the time to do this. I'm happy to cooperate, but I prefer to not see you dressed. So, can we work on a compromise where I will keep busy while you CD, or you can go out without me."

2. "I don't want to know about it, I don't want to see any evidence, I want to keep my head in the sand and if I do see evidence of it I'll leave you."

Pamela ... should both these wives seek therapy, in your opinion?

My opinion: I think therapists would agree with wife #1's compromise, since both spouses in this scenario are free to honor their internal landscapes, no one is being forced to do anything they don't want to do.

And since the therapist's function is to help a person be true to themselves, chances are the therapist would encourage wife #2 to leave the relationship if she cannot live with the CDing, knowing that the likelihood of getting her husband to stop is slim.

[NicoleScott]

Getting someone to agree to go to counseling would be easier than sending them to therapy. Look up the definitions and see why. Is non-acceptance a disorder in need of therapy?

[pamela7]

yes Reine, in those two scenarios i agree with you. there is a plentiful middle ground though, where perhaps there is room to come to some level of understanding or acceptance - or non-acceptance.

Nicole, I'm not going to split hairs on semantics between counselling/therapy/coaching/personal development/group support network. I'm sure a decent coach or counsellor would be sufficient for the purpose, and that's what I meant, if i did not explicitly say.

[NicoleScott]

Pamela, my point was that to suggest talking to a counselor would be better received than saying you have a mental disorder in need of treatment. (Even if the "counseling" is to be done by a "therapist")

[ReineD]

yes Reine, in those two scenarios i agree with you. there is a plentiful middle ground though, where perhaps there is room to come to some level of understanding or acceptance - or non-acceptance.

If a wife is so turned off the CDing that she does not even want to entertain the thought that her husband might crossdress, even if she is not involved, (which according to stats is a low percentage of women), I'm afraid that no amount of counseling or coaching would help ... just as no amount of counseling or coaching would convince a husband that he does not want or need to crossdress any more.

A case like this would indicate major incompatibilities between this couple, and a divorce might be the best option so they can each find partners who are more compatible. Certainly, people divorce for all kinds of incompatibility reasons (differences of opinions about money management, lifestyles, feeling they don't love each other any more, feeling their needs are no longer being by their partners, etc). Often, couples simply cannot come to an agreement.

[Nikki Elle]

This is a hard topic to pin down unless the DADT situation is defined:

variations
1) One person cooks the best chicken dish, the other doesn't like chicken - should this be a secret
2) One person has a drug problem but only indulges one day per year - should the this be a secret
3) The CD dresses one time per year - should this be a secret
4) The CD dresses every time the wife leave the house (even if there is only time for lipstick or a bra) - should this be a secret

We are discussing specifics about a general definition.

My answer: cross dressing on a regular basis (you can define frequency) would be a major paradigm shift for the SO, especially the more years that pass by in secret. Is it a good idea overall, "NO" but there are always circumstances that contradict. How many "family secrets" are kept to preserve the peace, marriage, appearances; it just happens to be the cross dressing is an extreme on the acceptance list. Marriage/relationships are more fluid today than in the past and dissolving one and beginning a new one barely raises an eyebrow in most circles. The best case is full disclosure up front, but when years go by it's tricky and I would never advise anyone without knowing both parties and the situation in great detail.

Final comment: counselors, therapists, etc come in all flavors and competence; and unfortunately are influenced by there personal viewpoints