Are there those here that are know inside they are really TS?

[Tina_gm]

if this person has a "female identity" to some extent would this not by definition make them genderqueer or genderfluid to some degree and not a cross dresser? I have no issue with saying that the cause of this genderfluid people and TS would definitely be linked somehow because you are talking about identity issues. These people as well would suffer from some level of GD..

But for someone that identifies as 100% male but enjoys cross dressing for what ever reason, I do not believe that they are the same as TS's. If it was you would see the conversations between the two groups be more similar in nature and not focused on the superficial aspect of feminity

AGAIN- I am not comparing CDers and TS women as being one in the same, I really am not. TS women especially can be sooo adamant that they are so different from a CDer, yet, often times spending many years thinking they are just a CDer. CDers sometimes spend years thinking they are more, until they start walking the path and then realize they really are not.

I fully 1000000000% agree that a CDer and a TS woman are fundamentally different. I am just saying that the cross gender thing whatever this thing is, is an origin. It branches out and becomes more for some than others, and it can become so opposite of birth gender to the point where the identity is complete opposite (TS) but sheeesh, how many people on here spend how much time in therapy and in crisis because they do not know what they are? Yes, yes yes yes, the end came is completely different. The amount of confusion and the years it often takes for people to really figure out if they are or are not leads me to believe that the origin of what makes someone TG is the same. If it is such a difference, why is it so hard to figure it out. It is the origin of TG which helps cause the confusion. You can build all kinds of different things with the same stuff, but get an entirely different result.... lets just say the same building blocks?

[Jenniferathome]

You can't become TS, you either know something is up early on or it's buried beneath denial but either way it's always there....
Why anyone would want to crossdress full-time when they identify as male is beyond me.
I felt compelled to do it, I was at my wits end and would never choose it.
... this idea that we are all under one umbrella or a spectrum that meant I spent years trying to discover my problem in Crossdressing circles (getting more and more unhinged) rather than learning about what it is to be TS.

...fear of where crossdressing would go if she did it. I dressed and went out twice in my life prior to starting down the road to transition ... I knew what door it would open up and that scared me. Most of my life was about shoving down what was inside.

When i came here it was trying to see if I could learn to better express myself with the cloths and find a way to enjoy crossdressing in the hope it would quiet the demons inside. Failed! Did not work, I could not even start to get into the crossdressing stuff. I did not relate to most of the discussions...

... I strongly disagree.... the differences in thought process and motivation between most of the CDs and the TSs here are fundamental. We are not full-time CDs, you are not part-time TSs...

...But for someone that identifies as 100% male but enjoys cross dressing for what ever reason, I do not believe that they are the same as TS's. If it was you would see the conversations between the two groups be more similar in nature and not focused on the superficial aspect of feminity

First, allow me to thank the ladies here that have responded to something that can only be the most personal thing in their life. I can't imagine what you have gone through and this is, of course, because I'm just a cross dresser.

[QUOTE=gendermutt;3892173]... There are defininetly some who are always simply the CDer, will never become more and never could. There is a big grey area though which grows stronger and stronger toward being TS...[/QUOTE

Mutt, the clear message from those in the know is that you don't BECOME trans. I would compare this to being straight or gay or whatever. I never chose to be straight. I was always hetero. Gay people don't choose to be gay, they ARE. You don't become either.

...CDers and TS women start off very much the same, and have so many similar feelings about themselves....

Read the tidbits above. Cross dressers and TS do NOT start the same. That's the misconception that still leads wives to think their husband will transition. It is merely coincidence that we both dress. Zoey used the right word to describe the difference in thought process: FUNDAMENTAL.

[Tina_gm]

I know, I know, this TG thing is separated by titanium walls several feet thick.It is quite a wonder to me that it takes people years to figure out where they are in it all with such a strong division.... I guess I will just have to go on believing what I believe and just be ok with it, which I really am anyway.

I really am not and have never stated that CDers and TS are in any way the same thing. Two very different things, it just comes from the same place, but ends up creating different lives.

[becky77]

How does it come from the same place?
That's the bit I'm not understanding can you elaborate as I don't want to misunderstand your meaning.

Using a MtF example below.

If I say:
A TS is a woman internally that is born male sexed, grown up male socialised but the internal identity causes enough problems to surface so much so that many are compelled to Transition.
A Crossdresser (not gender fluid or inbetweener, just a crossdresser) is a man internally that is born male sexed and socialised as male yet has a real interest in female attire and need to express their feminine side.

How are the above two starting from the same place?

I use the two polar opposites above as an example because the grey areas in between are a minefield.

[Tina_gm]

The starting point is femininity. While there are definitely those who are no doubt TS, and those who are no doubt, JCDers, who not even when dressed ever feel or consider themselves anything but a guy, the minefield is a pretty darn large one for the majority of all who reside within the TG spectrum, which runs from the casual CDer to the TS. While most who are either in the CD side or the TS side do their best to establish a stone wall between the two, I am not convinced that one exists that is so contrasting. It can be for the most polar opposites within the spectrum.

Ultimately though, when one fully identifies as TS and is willing to begin living life in their identity, their lives are the ones who are most impacted by far. Yes, then it truly does become a big difference in the end, because rather than allotting a set amount of room for the femininity, or part of or however someone wishes to consider it, a TS person truly lives their life fully opposite their birth gender.

The minefield though, wow, I mean you see it all the time on here... the confusion that so many face, and sometimes taking many many years to figure out. If it was such a black and white division, we wouldn't be seeing so many who are not TS, but sometimes think they might be, begin going down the path only to realize it really isn't what they should be doing. TS people who think for the longest time they are not TS, just very feminine side CDers, if that even.

I am in no way trying to redefine anyone any more or less, lump us all in together as one big batch of TG. I am no trying to do anything like that. But, I do see that grey area so many of us reside in, the femininity that resides with all of us, and all of what we go through because of it. There are commonalities here, IMO, and that is not something that most on either side wants, but it is something I personally feel exists.

[Julia Welch]

I've never wanted to be a girl, I just like wearing their clothing ... I'm not attracted to other guys in any way, so I guess I'm just a plain old CD ...

[Shayna]

I've never wanted to be a girl, I just like wearing their clothing ... I'm not attracted to other guys in any way, so I guess I'm just a plain old CD ...

I think you can still be a plain old CD even if you are attracted to other men. Dressing and sexuality, and for that matter gender are not the same thing.

[sometimes_miss]

I really am not and have never stated that CDers and TS are in any way the same thing.

And yet, why not? People can be bisexual, why can't we self identify as not just one or the other, but both male and female? Time and again, we read on these very forums how much some feel very female, even though they live a typical male life much of the time, only to come home and dress, think, and do their best to behave as they think a woman does, try to think like a woman does, and want to walk, talk, move and feel emotions like a woman does, even though it's quite clear that there are huge differences between ourselves and the women we idolize? Sure, we can't ever know exactly what living an entire lifetime as a girl is like, but we do our best to try to understand it, and search endlessly in the pursuit of knowing more. What's more, we're not alone. Women have been doing this for the last 50 years now; taking the best of both sexes, and embracing it. Why can't we do the same? Just because the vast majority of women in the world refuse to accept a guy who displays femininity, even while she takes all sorts of options in life that were previously 'male only' and demands to be able to be whatever she wants whenever she wants? But under no circumstances believes that a man should ever be able to do the same?

[Jazzy Jaz]

After following the friendly debate mostly between gendermutt and zooey, I find myself somewhat agreeing with some of what both of you say while also disagreeing with some of what both of you say. I dont think people who are just CDers originate from the same "place" as TS's. Those who identify as just CDers are generally cisgender (or on the cusp of cisgender while those who identify as TS are, well, TS (or on the cusp of TS). What they do have in common is that they both sit at one of the gender "poles", though where each group sits generally makes them opposites. The grey area inbetween IS the wall that separates the two. I dont believe that a JCDer can confuse themselves with being TS or that a TS can confuse themselves with being JCDer. One may lie to themselves or try to convince themselves that they are the other but this is likely being in denial and is very different from actually believing that you're JCDer when you're actually TS. Where confusion IS likely to occur is between JCDer and the grey area and between TS and the grey area. Someone who is JCDer may be unsure if they fall somewhat deeper into the TG spectrum but TS is still way at the deep end of the pool. Someone who is TS may wonder if they vary a bit or are mixed but very unlikely wonder if they are JCDer. Someone who is mixed may wonder/struggle with whether or not they are cisgender, JCDer, mixed, or TS depending on their gender variation etc (this is where it can get real confusing as you can feel/identify with both poles, yet feel so different).

I like using water temperature as a metaphor. What water has in common regardless of its temperature is that its wet, likewise what people have in common is that we generally have a gender, ( "a gender" including mixed gender variations). Hot and cold water are wet but they are very different (opposites). They generally aren't mistaken for each other like JCDers and TS generally won't mistake themselves for each other, not when they're being honest with themselves. Warm is mixed and depending on the variation, warm like a nice bath etc can be closer to hot and so on. Luke warm/cool is closer to being cold and you can have a 50/50 mix and every other mixed temperature imaginable. Where is the line between very very warm and hot (and viceversa), well thats where the confusion comes in but straight up hot and straight up cold are quite different. Genderfluid people fluctuate period. They're the only ones who can "temperarily" move from cisgender to TS and everything in between so to speak. They definately are not cisgender or TS though, they are genderfluid.

In regards to the superficial, it is important to note that there are many GGs who enjoy the superficial aspects of femininity including makeup/beauty/sexy fasion/ and even fetish. There are some GGs who choose to be porn stars because they like it. This doesn't mean that they are any less female or that they dont have any further depth to their character/female identity. Likewise, a male bodied mixed gender person can enjoy the superficial aspects of femininity while also containing a deeper female identity. In a forum like this it is easy to enjoy discussing these superficial aspects, especially when you've lived in a male body and not really gotten to discuss it before. My female identity resides in me regardless of which body I'm in, so it's natural for me to yearn for the superficial aspects such as feminine beauty etc which I dont really have and can't neccesarily ascertain physically. The other feminine aspects of me I DO have always and so I'm not yearning for it in the same way as the physical side. Also to note, a mtf mixed gender IS part male and so again being drawn to superficial aspects of femininity totally makes sense and doesn't discredit the female identity, it simply implies that the individual is not exclusively female (which is the point). A mixed gender person may harbour aspects that are generally related to one gender while also harbouring aspects that are generally related to the opposite gender and everything inbetween. I believe the grey/mixed area in all the varying degrees is the majority in the TG spectrum and that is why there's so much confusion.

[Jenniferathome]

Jasmine, you are writing from the cross dresser's perspective. I am shocked that anyone who is not TS can be debating what it means to be TS with people who have lived it and have actually transitioned (living full time as a woman). It's like me telling my wife what menstrual cramps feel like.

By the way, your statement about porn stars is patently wrong. Women in porn are there because they can't leave it. They are trapped. CNBC did a great segment on the business of sex where some of this was covered but PBS did a better one where they interviewed several former "actresses" and all stated they hated it, were on drugs, or were just running away from life. When they left that life for the real world, most found it difficult. Why do abused women stay with abusers? Because they are trapped! Make no mistake, porn is degrading to women, the actresses do not like it, it's fantasy for men.

[Zooey]

We're well past the point of diminishing returns here, but I'm sorry - you're still missing our point.

The starting point is femininity.

I understand what you're saying, but femininity (and especially superficial femininity) is not the starting point for womanhood. Being a woman is the starting point for womanhood, or at the very least, not being a man is sort of necessary. I agree that many/most of us express one or more forms of "femininity", but the underlying source (and in many ways, the nature) of that is fundamentally different. The "minefield" for TS people that you mention seeing here is their often-painful and tumultuous process of following their proverbial river back to its source. It was always different for them, even if took them a while to realize it.

I hate to play this card, but I'm honestly not terribly interested in or impressed by the views of a bunch of self-identified men on the nature of womanhood, our femininity, and why it's the same as what they feel, comes from the same place, or etc. No matter how much they may like dresses and makeup.

Look, at the end of the day, there's plenty for all of us to talk about. There's a fair amount of overlap in the "things we do". I'm happy to wax poetic about my favorite curling iron in the world if somebody here finds it helpful, but it's pretty much just going to be the top 10 ways that it helps me get out the door faster (and with my hands unburnt) on date nights and the occasional mornings that I don't just say "screw it" and grab a hair tie. I mean, c'mon... It's not even pink, although to be fair it is a rather delightful sunny shade of yellow.

So, let's stop talking about it all coming from the same place, or trying to identify some convenient common starting point. It might look similar sometimes, but it's just not the same. Let's just talk about the things we actually do have in common. Things like our love/hate relationship with bras, that one sweater that we have to keep at the office to balance out the temperature in that one conference room, the way that outlets in the bathroom are never quite where you want them, strategies for remaining pleasant when men try to explain femininity and womanhood to us...

Err, well... Maybe not some of those things, but you get what I'm saying. Anybody wanna talk about makeup brushes? Seriously... I'm a bit obsessed with good makeup brushes.

[BillieAnneJean]

I am assuming that the question of the original post also wants to know if we are not trans. I fall in to that category. I have no desire, impulse, longing to change genders. For me crossdressing is the best of both worlds. I consider myself lucky.

My admiration for those trans is well documented.

[Marcelle]

Hi Suzanne,

A bit late to the thread but since it is still active . . . well, I can't refuse a chance to write .

It is funny because you and I both landed on this site at roughly the same time and both identified as CD. We travelled slightly different paths but both ended up on the TS forum at different times. For me when I first came here, I was confused, afraid, slightly embarrassed and emotionally distraught . . . I needed something to latch on to and I found it through the wonderful responses . . . I was a cross dresser . . . others were like me and I found kinship. However, as time moved forward something was wrong, the clothing meant nothing it was a means to an end, I found myself slipping downward to the dark again because the initial high was gone. I discussed this in length with my therapist and we continued to explore. I felt a drive/need to express who I was internally to the external world, I had to be seen for who I was . . . a woman. This led to a brief dalliance with identifying as gender fluid and presenting as a woman at work for a couple of days a week . . . this lasted about a month as I could feel her behind my eyes and when I was him, I missed her but when I was her . . . I never missed him. I remember that moment because I was alone in the study and my world came crashing down on me again much like it did when I first gravitated here . . . there was never a him only a her and that day I effectively killed him off. It was heart wrenching and satisfying all at the same time but I never looked back.

I can't say with any certainty that I always felt I was a girl/woman growing up. I do recall knowing I was not quite wired like the other boys growing up and over time it would come back to haunt me. But given my career choice and time frame, I suppressed/beat her down. It wasn't until I could admit that he never existed the he was always she that I could admit I was a woman. My transition is not the same as yours or others, I live full time as a woman but I will never seek HRT or surgery (my choice). It has nothing to do with being attached to be physically male it is just that my physiology does not define my gender only my sex (for me). So while I will always appear as a man in women's clothing, I know I am truly a woman and I suspect deep down I always knew.

Cheers

Marcelle

[becky77]

Gendermutt, Femininity is not a starting point. There are many TS that don't particularly wear feminine clothes or makeup.
If you are defining us all on a scale of femininity then you are way way off the mark.

It is all about identity.

Jennifer identifies as a man I identify as a woman that means we have absolutely nothing in common, at least not in regards to gender.
Unfortunately you are making the mistake that most seem to in making a comparison purely on the exterior, therefore totally invalidating my identity and those like Jennifer.

To say we are similar or starting from the same place is the same as saying you don't believe I am a woman and you also doubt Jennifer's masculinity. Why can't Jennifer be masculine yet enjoy embracing femininity too?

Also TS to us NOT an identity, being TS is the symptom of being female with a male body.
You could say it's the diagnosis of what's wrong.

The problem is you are so busy trying to find your own place in all this you don't realise how you dismiss others. I bet you don't think of me as a woman, just a Trans that's gone the full distance?
If you want to compare me to CDers then you haven't respected my identity.
I don't crossdress, neither does Zooey. To us they are not female clothes they are just our clothes.
You wouldn't tell a Cis woman that she is akin to a crossdresser but you would say it to me, think on what that means and how your thought process is.
You simply don't believe in us as women, you can't otherwise you would stop with this argument.

[mechamoose]

Ok, maybe not Gendermutt's 'femininity', but how about 'feeling feminine'?

I'm not TS, heck, if I was I would be a big red flag of 'something is wrong here'.

My posit is that 'feeling feminine' is the base level. Some of us have more of that, some of us enough to change our very being. Some of us don't.

We still 'feel feminine'. At best I'm still Danny Trejo in a frock. I'm still a girl, dammit. Don't you dare try and take that away.

I don't have a physical dysphoria.. maybe I'm lucky, maybe I am not. I still have *mental* dysphoria.

To me, THAT is the difference between TS and CD. It has nothing to do with right and proper, it has everything to do with intent and identity. Neither one is wrong or improper. They both need to be paid attention to. They both still count.

/swish

- MM

[becky77]

Feminine:

1.having qualities or an appearance traditionally associated with women, especially delicacy and prettiness.

If a woman isn't feminine is she still a woman?
A man can be feminine and yet still be a man, being feminine is a personality trait not an identity in itself.

[Megan G]

Becky beat me to it..

This has nothing to do with masculinity or feminity. It's all about identity, who you are as a person. If a woman is a "Tom boy" thru and thru and typically shows more masculinity than feminity is she still a woman? Of course she is....

[mechamoose]

Feminine:

1.having qualities or an appearance traditionally associated with women, especially delicacy and prettiness.

If a woman isn't feminine is she still a woman?
A man can be feminine and yet still be a man, being feminine is a personality trait not an identity in itself.

And my GG is a male, yet her identity is not an identity all to itself? Oh wait, yes it is. She is my girly bear, and is all that rough fur and prettiness all at once.

My wife wears gym shorts and 'wife beater' shirts at home. She is the 'pull my finger' parent.

Meanwhile I'm scooting about the house in a skirt and (literally) doing anything involving decorating. She doesn't even see that stuff.

She is still a GG, but that isn't how she would identify if all the 'rules' were suspended. She is a boy in a GG body.

Do *you* want to tell her that she doesn't fit? *I'm* not going to. It would leave scars.

Us XY folks don't have a monopoly on this, eh?

- MM

[ReineD]

The starting point is femininity.

I think this is where you might be stuck Gendermutt. Femininity is not the end goal for TSs (or GGs). A TS's end goal is to reflect who she feels she is internally. Or more accurately, this is her beginning goal since her end goal is to live the rest of her life as her authentic self. I'll give you a concrete example, it might be easier than describing it in general terms and I'll say the same thing in several ways in an attempt to find a way that you will understand:

A friend in my town is MtF transitioned. She is not feminine in the way that you might mean, she is female. Big difference. She wears overalls and work boots every day because she is a contractor. I can't even tell whether her work clothes were bought on the men's or women's side of the aisle, because to me all overalls and work boots look the same. Anyway, she's an excellent builder. She drives a truck because she is constantly hauling stuff. She works out to keep up her strength for the physical demands of her work and she does need to haul lumber, spend hours at a time plastering a ceiling, etc, and so her biceps are strong. She piles her hair on top of her head so it won't get in the way. She doesn't bother with makeup or jewelry because that gets in the way too. When she does go out and wears makeup, it is minimal. She has been on hormones for at least 10 years, she has had a BA although her goal was not and is not to show off her boobs since they are hidden behind her overalls most of the time and comfortable clothes the rest of the time. Her reason for surgeries was to conform her body to her identity, not because she got a kick out of imagining herself with boobs and a vagina or because she thought they would make her look more feminine. And when we look at her, there is no question that she is female. No one would ever mistake her as a male. She is an average woman's height, about 5'6. Her voice is ambiguous. It is much throatier than most other women's, but it is not characteristically a male voice either.

Femininity is what CDers aspire to. Some CDers aspire to go all out (feminine dresses, heels, hose, etc), while others want to experience just enough of a difference from standard male mode to make them "feel" more feminine (girl jeans, cute tops, girl shoes). But that's the difference. It is wanting to feel feminine for CDers vs. knowing that one is a woman for TSs. Any woman is by default "feminine" just by virtue of being female and it has nothing to do with wearing overalls or skirts, how long is the hair or how much makeup is worn. Does this make sense?

That said, there are of course transitioned women who go out dressed nicely and who wear gender-appropriate clothes for the office, and some who enjoy dressing with style, but the goal is the same as it is for GGs, which is to dress appropriately for the occasion. We can use the standard definition of "femininity" and say that an office skirt & top or an evening gown looks more "feminine" than overalls and workboots, but it is not the reason for wearing the fancier clothes. There is no kick to being all dressed up for TSs and GGs (although we can acknowledge that a sparkly dress is more feminine in style than overalls) nor is there a feeling that "this just feels right" because, well, we are always who we are which is women. The way we feel about ourselves does not change according to what clothes we wear. This is something that a lot of CDers do not understand ... how many CDers have asked GGs if they felt uplifted when they wore sexy or feminine clothes, or cute bras. The "feeling right" for transitioned TSs is not having to pretend to be male anymore. It is not specifically about looking "feminine" like it is with CDers. The "feeling right" for both TSs and GGs in terms of wearing clothes is wearing the styles that conform to their personal aesthetics, whether this is a pair of pants or a skirt and not because one thing makes them feel more feminine than the other. Transitioned TSs and GGs can feel feminine just wearing a pair of jeans because our bodies conform to who we are. We feel feminine naked.

<edit>
I was writing this response piece-meal while I was doing other stuff and had the editor opened for over an hour, and so I'm repeating some of the things posted in the last hour.

[Jazzy Jaz]

Jasmine, you are writing from the cross dresser's perspective. I am shocked that anyone who is not TS can be debating what it means to be TS with people who have lived it and have actually transitioned (living full time as a woman). It's like me telling my wife what menstrual cramps feel like.

By the way, your statement about porn stars is patently wrong. Women in porn are there because they can't leave it. They are trapped. CNBC did a great segment on the business of sex where some of this was covered but PBS did a better one where they interviewed several former "actresses" and all stated they hated it, were on drugs, or were just running away from life. When they left that life for the real world, most found it difficult. Why do abused women stay with abusers? Because they are trapped! Make no mistake, porn is degrading to women, the actresses do not like it, it's fantasy for men.

To be accurate Jennifer, YOU are writing as JCDer. I am NOT JCDer, I am bigender which internally is quite different. I am in no way disputing what TSs are saying about THEIR internal identities, in fact I very much support what they say. In line with one of the major points that becky, zooey, and marcelle make, TSs ARE completely women, and at some point they come to realize that there is no gender grey area for them and there truly never was. That is not only what makes them different from JCDers, but it is also what makes them different from me and other mixed folks. Nothing I've stated in regards to TSs comes from my experience, it is what I have read them say and I am simply supporting it. I can however discuss what differentiates them from me just as I can discuss what differentiates JCDers from me. You critisize me for discussing TS identity immediately after disregarding my gender identity and categorizing me as a CDer. You may be completely a man who enjoys CDing but I am not, I am part man but also have physical GD due to also being part woman. Therefore you could just as easily be critisized for describing me when my gender identity is much different from you. One of my main points was that while JCDers and TSs definately exist and deserve respect, mixed gender people should not be overlooked or disregarded. Just as it is frustrating for a TS to be categorized as a CDer, it can be annoying for a mixed gender person to be disregarded as JCDer also. I was only trying to acknowledge ALL of our existance in a description that reflects how "I" understand gender, there's nothing wrong with that. In your response about porn stars, notice that I very purposely said SOME. I dont dispute the experiences that the women in the segments you referenced spoke of, I am totally aware of the sexism, misogyny, exploitation, and objectification that many in these industries face. Anyone who remembers my comments in last years thread discussing prostitution and remembering that they're people will know my views in that regard. However, this doesn't mean that every single woman in porn hates it, there are SOME (not to be confused with all or even most) who simply enjoy sex and like getting paid to do what they enjoy. When describing the segments you said SEVERAL former actresses were interviewed, definately not ALL. I agree that porn is very much directed towards men and male enjoyment/fantasy, but also, most girlfriends that I've had have been very in to porn, more than me and enjoyed it when I was not around. I am not at all trying to state that these points are the mojority, what I am saying is that there are all different types of GGs with all different likes and tastes including the superficial aspects and this doesn't diminish their female identity, just as it wouldn't diminish a mtf TSs female identity, and it also doesn't diminish a mixed gender persons partial female identity. My points are rather quite simple.



I didnt see the latest posts as I was writing but I agree with ReineD, megan, and becky. The thing about being mixed gender is that you can have a "partial" female identity similiar to TSs, except mtf TSs have a complete female identity, but you can also aspire to "femininity" similiar to JCDer, except JCDer doesn't have an internal female identity. I feel like I'm in the middle being misunderstood by both!

[ReineD]

What's a JCDer?

[sometimes_miss]

Reine: I took it to mean 'Just' a CD'er.

Jasmine, you are writing from the cross dresser's perspective. I am shocked that anyone who is not TS can be debating what it means to be TS

And yet, these are discussion groups, where we debate all kinds of things. Considering that there have been numerous TS who regretted transitioning over the years, who are we to know whether the TS we're debating things with is one of those? We're all living with a situation which can be in flux. Or not. Or be stable for years, then something new comes up to enlighten us and bring about a whole new set of things to consider about ourselves (and others).
RE: Porn actresses. This from personal experience. Yes, they hate the job. So do a lot of us, hate our jobs. Are we 'trapped'? Well, not exactly, not in America, anyway. Most can walk out the door at any time. Minumum wage jobs as well as all sorts of OTHER undesirable jobs are out there. Ask a guy who works in a sewer if he loves his job. Sure, when they leave 'that life' for the rest of the world it will be difficult; leave any field for another and it will be difficult to adjust. That one, for women especially, because they tend to link sex with love more than men do. But trapped? Not so much. As one of those women told me, 'It's a job. You do it. You go home'. The implication I got from her was, yes, it was initially a desperation measure from being broke; she had options, but none of them good either, having been down those routes before (borrowing money from family, living with family that treated her like dirt, that sort of thing, living with the baby daddy, etc.). But like so many others who can't get their life together, she had a lot of problems with impulse control, and being short tempered as well. How much those were from living a life full of stress all the time, or even contributed to it, I'll never be sure. One thing I did learn real quick, was that she rapidly started taking advantage of our friendship by 'borrowing' money which of course never got paid back, even though she had enough money to spend on other stuff she wanted (typical girl 'hauls', new boots, new jacket, etc. when the 'old' stuff still looked like new), indulging in 'retail therapy'. So how trapped she was, and how much of it was her own doing, I don't know. BTW, this girl was a dancer; I met her in a gogo bar, she volunteered the information that she did movies too, perhaps as some sort of way to impress me? I had already told her that I wasn't interested in any type of sexual excitement, which she seemed to accept. I would not be surprised if she wound up having sex with the guys who ran the business, but women do that in other lines of work to get ahead, too. And they're not 'trapped' either. I'm not saying none are; but that's not the universal situation. And no, I fully understand the fallacy of the typical male viewpoint that these women love their jobs.

[Jazzy Jaz]

Yes, I meant JCDer as just a CDer as I saw someone else use it recently in the forum. I dont mean it in a condescending way, I am simply refering to those who identify completely as male while enjoying CDing.

Sometimes miss, when you talk about porn actresses you say they, these women, and speak of one whom you knew or conversed with, and then go on to dispute that theres a universal situation which contradicts your earlier generalizations. I have made it clear that I'm not describing the majority of those in these industries and I didn't even intend for this specific topic to be prevalent in this thread, but noone can say EVERY woman in these industries hates it because some women enjoy sex work, some enjoy fetish and bdsm and these women ARE out there period. Are they the majority, absolutely not, but then I never said they were.

[mechamoose]

Trying hard not to rage at being ignored...

I'm what, chopped liver? An inconvenience to be politefully ignored?

I don't need responses to feel validated. I just don't get the level of 'rainbow' responses this thread has gotten.

XX and XY people are different. We can have any level of disassociation with that genetic assignment, and we often do. We should not be sorry for it. That disassociation happens anyway, regardless of what we 'want'.

I have been living this cross-streamed existence for half my life. I think I may have a clue.

Are you REALLY looking for the difference between TS and CDs, or is it all just rainbow chaff?

(Not TRYING to be combative, but I'm now officially pissed off)

- MM

[ReineD]

MM, you and a few others here fall into a class all your own.

You aim to, or are resigned to, or are content with projecting a male image while wearing women's clothes. I admire you for honoring who you are, but I think this thread applies mostly to people who want to present as women, which I believe is the bulk of the members in this forum?