Does your relationship have a solid foundation?

[Marcelle]

. . . There are some who criticize the study which is understandable, but the amount of work the researchers poured into it is definitely commendable.

Sure, the ideal study would be to interview 800,000 pairs of divorced couple, or to follow-up a million couples over 3 decades, then perform a factor analysis and a multiple regression to find out what factors contribute to divorce, but we all know that that is unrealistic.

We need to be reasonable when determining what constitutes "scientific rigor". The Bradford Hill criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Hill_criteria) is a good guide and although the "strength" of this study is lacking, it makes up for its short comings in other criterias such as "plausibility", "coherence", and perhaps "biological (psychological in this case) gradient.

Therefore, I disagree with those who said that this study "proves nothing". I simply say it proves something, but we need more study to determine what that something is. Until then, this serves as a good guide.

What this study cannot answer however, is "does crossdressing increases the risk of divorce"? Crossdressing is not one of the mentioned horsemen, although it stands to reason that it could be turned into "contempt". More study is needed.

S,

What this study lacks is definite scientific rigor because it is not evidenced in the reporting. Yes, 800,000 divorced couples is not realistic but a simple power analysis will demonstrate that 29 couples is not a sufficient alpha to conduct a study. I suspect this is a correlational study which is not causal by relation only. Causality can only be established via a regression analysis or MANOVA and the fact this was published in a third if not fourth tier journal only leads me to suspect there was no multivariate analysis conducted.

The point I made was not that the study proves nothing, indeed it does show a relationship between the four factors and divorce. My concern is that the OP cites this as scientific proof that cross dressing is not the reason for divorce so have it and let your spouse know. So long as your relationship is strong your SO will be fine. This is conjecture at best as "cross dressing" was not a manipulated IV in this study. Sorry, you can extrapolate all you want but the science is not there.

BTW . . . no bitterness here just a scientific voice of reason and, my marriage is fine . . . so conjecture again.

M

[mykell]

edit in bold,

apart from the title:
The question for anyone is, can you look at your relationship objectively?

this was the other question, i will say no, too many variables, one would have to be honest, sometimes that hurts, impartial ? without prejudice ? open minded ? and from all accounts with these types of threads, neither can most here, what generally happens is you are judged by someone elses morals, philosophy, convictions, and of coarse the "big" boss, your spouses....

everything else is a numbers game....

its like "war games" the movie...... "want to start a thread", the computer would offer, "what a terrible topic, there are no winners....what would be the point...."

[BillieAnneJean]

I need to preface this with a disclaimer:
I am "just" a crossdresser. Therefore my path is easier because I don't have the trauma that transitioning seems to bring to some relationships. What I say here applies to my relationship as "just" a crossdresser. My admiration for those who are trans is well documented.

(As a CDer)
I love my wife with every molecule in my body.
She loves me back the same.
I spent all day yesterday with her.
It was one of the best days of my life.
Yesterday I was "the guy" she was "the girl" that met multiple decades ago.
Yes we have a solid foundation.
Oh yes there have been cracks. There has been loss. Like all lives together there has been some pain.

But I can count on her. She will always be able to count on me.

We are fortunate and also we are diligent to maintain that foundation.

Please consider your SO when you do things for yourself. If things aren't so good, try small improvements. Even if there seems there is no hope. Try small improvements. Like telling her that you appreciate something that she usually does for the two of you. Do something once a week that she likes to do. There was something there that caused you to to be drawn together a long time ago. Try to find it again.

For those transitioning and in marriages, my heart goes out to you, your SO, and your children.

[S. Lisa Smith]

Well said, Billie!!!!

[Joni T]

i also remember t he saying that "liars figure and figures lie",

Actually the old adage is '' Liars never figure and figures never lie''.
Jon

[mykell]

joni you must be a politician....today you can make figures say whatever you need them too by changing the rules you use to extrapolate them, the adage seems to work both ways, much like us, but i did answer the question with the assumed percentage....

[Stephanie47]

I tried to put my nickel in the other day and was too loquacious. I got timed out. Sigh! Anyway, these four attributes are destined to destroy any marriage for any underlying reason. I will agree the limited sample of 21 marriages is not a valid survey. Contempt, criticism, defensiveness and stonewalling can sink a marriage. There are other issues that can also sink a marriage, and, those issues do not have to display overt actions. Sometimes there is just a plain realization one or both parties did not think things through. Love is blind or so it is said. Get all wrapped up in puppy love and sex, and, later sometimes there is the realization the parties never adequately discussed goals and aspirations and made assumptions the other was going to be on board with everything and anything he or she cooked up.

Since I think the intent may have been to work these four attributes into a cross dressing discussion, I think cross dressing can be enough to break a marriage. I hate to say it or burst some bubbles around here, it is possible for one issue to destroy a marriage. I have known too many people who are poison. Poison in the sense they display overt hostility toward some people who are not like themselves. Some women have total hatred for cross dressing. It is a total deal breaker. I've said it before and I will say it again, the accusations of lying and deceit may be a cover for the innate hostility for cross dressing. It may be based on moral or religious principles or society may view the wife as defective, "Why does she stay with that cross dresser? What's wrong with her?"

I've read some threads or comments over the years that I can truly say if I tried that crap on my wife, she'd kick my ass out of the house.

[ReineD]

Hi Reine,

You missed the point of my post. I was pointing out that Jen posited the study demonstrates that cross dressing was not the reason for the break-up (her words not mine) but that the four markers were.

I went straight to the study link and saw this is a book about general marital health. The study does not include couples one of whom crossdresses and so I did not read into Jen's words that she thought it did. And as mentioned, it does make a lot of sense to me that if a marriage has a solid foundation and the couple feels connected (in other words, contempt, criticism, defensiveness and stonewalling is not a part of the couple's daily or weekly fabric), they have a much better chance of surviving the CDing (or any other other issue than can crop up in a marriage) than a couple who do not respect nor listen to each other and who instead engage in these four obstructive behaviors on a regular basis.

I took it that Jen:

1. Suggests that if marriages break down, it is likely for deeper reasons than the CDing, namely the four behaviors mentioned.
2. Implies that CDers should make sure their marriages are rock solid before expecting a wife's cooperation.
3. Implies that if there is a divorce, to look at how healthy was the marriage before assuming the reasons for the breakup was strictly a wife's non-acceptance.

That said (and for the sake of some of our members who may lump everyone in this forum in the same boat) I think Jen is speaking of only the CDing and not transsexualism which can be (but not always) impossible to navigate if a wife is heterosexual, no matter how healthy is the marriage. I really admire the women who stay in relationships with transitioned TSs. They are able to redefine their own hetero wants and needs in their relationships and also are able to flow with their changed social standing of being in a same-sex vs opposite-sex relationship. Doing this is no small task.

[Marcelle]

In response to the "My will divorce me if I tell her," crowd, I have written many times, that with a solid foundation, any relationship can survive the revelation of cross dressing. I do not mean to start a debate about that again here, rather, I wanted to provide some scientific data to this long standing debate . . . notable in these findings is that cross dressing, of course, is not a reason for divorce. This study can help to objectively measure how solid things really are.

Reine,

When someone posits . . . "that cross dressing, of course, is not the reason for divorce" based on a study which has limitations quoted by its own author (the nature of qualitative vice quantitative data fed into a differential analysis) it implies something totally different from the intent of the study. The study used a canonical correlation to identify patterns of discussion (in an agreed upon sequential order) on a stratified sample (those who chose to respond) over a protracted time period during which any number of variables could have affected the relationship (i.e., not a controlled study). As I said the study points out some interesting factors which may affect relationship strength, but to state (as the OP does) it has nothing to do with cross dressing and if your relationship is strong then it will be fine . . . is conjecture and speculation. This was not the intent of the study and cannot be extrapolated to an IV which was not included in the study to state your wife will not divorce you if you tell.

Marcelle

[ReineD]

Marcelle, I do agree with you that it is NOT notable in the findings that "CDing is not a reason for divorce", simply because the crossdressing was not examined in the study. And I may be guilty of making the assumption that Jen knows this because she read the study, so what she means instead is "this study shows dysfunctional behaviors that lead to divorce and if they are not present in a marriage, then the CDing in itself need not cause divorce."

So from a common sense point of view, it makes sense to me that if couples do not habitually engage in contempt, criticism, defensiveness and stonewalling which are all signs of a dysfunctional relationship, then the CDing (not transsexualism) has a better chance of being accepted or at least tolerated and it need not be responsible for divorce.

(... keeping in mind, however, there are no absolutes. We could well have a couple who respect and listen to each other, who do not engage in dysfunctional marital behaviors, but the wife is deeply religious and she feels that she cannot live with a CDing husband because she believes the behavior to be sinful. But for the sake of this discussion, I think we'll get lost if we focus on the extremes given that few (I believe) of our members are married to women who are religious to that extent.)

So Jen ... your words are read two different ways. Which is your intended meaning?

[Jenniferathome]

This, is clearly the answer:

"this study shows dysfunctional behaviors that lead to divorce and if they are not present in a marriage, then the CDing in itself need not cause divorce."

unnfortunately, because I am an advocate of coming out my motivations are questioned by some and attacked by others. Cross dressing is just a piece amongst many pieces that make up a relationship.

What is clear from the emotions here is that objectivity, self-reflection, whatever you choose to call it, is frightening. Objectivity is a rare trait it means you have to admit your failings.

[Marcelle]

Jen,

So you do posit that based on the study you quoted, so long as your relationship is strong then it will survive a CDing relationship? I am not trying to argue nor questioning your motives. As much as you feel you are being attacked based on your "you must tell" stance, I am attacked based on my "tell when you are ready stance". Objectivity is in the eye of the beholder.

So if a strong relationships can survive CDing, then how do you explain DADT? If he relationship is strong it should be a "no issue" much like your circumstances. If the relationship is not strong then it should have been exit visas. In addition, if a relationship is strong on the outset and a person tells then why do so many end up on the skids. You cannot say with any certainty that these relationships had the four markers. As I noted, CDing was not a variable in the study and if it had of been entered the results might have been different . . . or not. Just saying, you put the study out there as scientific proof that CDing does not cause divorce but it has never been tested.

Marcelle

[ReineD]

What is clear from the emotions here is that objectivity, self-reflection, whatever you choose to call it, is frightening. Objectivity is a rare trait it means you have to admit your failings.

When you put it that way, it doesn't surprise me that some members don't want to look at the overall health of their marriage and instead want to blame their wives. You put it in terms of "your failings" which comes off as placing the blame for a marital failure on the CDer's part. Small words are important.

In truth, when dysfunctional behaviors are present in a marriage it is both partner's fault ... unless of course one of the partners is blindsided with the other partner's addiction or compulsion - any addiction or compulsion, not just the CDing if the CDing (not transsexualism) has gone to the extreme and the CDer can no longer control it, so he suffers the behavioral withdrawal symptoms previously mentioned.

<edit>
In the case of non-outwardly dysfunctional marriages, three additional things have not been mentioned here that I think happens in cases where a CDer makes the decision to not tell his wife:

1. Codependency. Even if the marriage is not dysfunctional, some CDers may indeed accurately anticipate that their wives won't be happy initially and so they feel unable to face and work through the unhappiness. It is easier for them emotionally to proceed with the status quo, unfettered. This is codependency because the CDer is taking responsibility for his wife's emotions when in fact, she is the one responsible for overcoming her initial reactions (given her husband's willingness to work with her).

2. Fear of being constrained through having to work through an initial set of boundaries. This ties in with the above. The codependent CDer fears that his enjoyment of the CDing will be diminished even after a reluctant wife allows for time and space to crossdress and he doesn't want this to happen.

3. The CDer does sense on a deep level that his marriage is not on the best footing and the CDing might indeed be the straw to put it over the edge, even if there is no outward symptom of dysfunction in the marriage ... some couples simply do not talk to each other much and he does not know how to strengthen the marriage again (doing this takes 2 people). A lot of people settle into living parallel lives without noticing how distant they've grown over the years.

Hence, I believe, the tendency to believe "she'll divorce me if she finds out", for cases 1 and 2 (case 3 might be justified). I honestly think it's easier for some people to believe this than face their fears or codependency and the amount of work it takes to overcome them. But honestly if they don't crossdress that much, for example only on occasional business trips, and when they're home they're engaged in their male lives, then I can see a justification for keeping it in the dark. It is difficult to overcome fears, codependency, or bring the marriage up to the next level if it has grown distant. If the frequency of the CDing does not warrant telling, then why bother.

I could go on and on, but the big danger in NOT telling in the case of 1 & 2 above is if the wife finds out by mistake which can potentially be dangerous.

[ReluctantDebutant]

You know it isn't drunk driving that kills people it is the severe blunt force trauma to the head and chest that is the cause of death in auto accidents.

Yes we can say the ultimate cause of the end of a marriage would be one or more of the "Four Horsemen" but the question will remain what was the trumpet call that sent them charging in the first place? Was it financial issues, sex issues, family issues, or a whole host of other issues?
Could cross-dressing be the trumpet? Could a loving wife turn contemptuous upon learning that her husband is a cross-dressers? Could cross-dressing become a point of criticism? Couldn't one or both parties become defensive over cross-dressing. "I wish you wouldn't go out dressed like that. You make me feel so embarrassed." "Why can't you understand I just like wearing a silk nightie to bed?" Isn't a DADT the epitome of stonewalling?

Is it possible for a marriage to have a good foundation before the revelation of cross-dressing comes in and shatters it like a bunker-busting bomb?

[Tina_gm]

The problem with this study, obviously does not include CDing as a component. Even a study that does, would have to define what CDing is, which in a way is just about impossible. CDing has nearly unlimited X factors in it. There is nothing static about it at all.

Generically, a strong marriage can survive, sure. A strong marriage can survive almost anything. But, what if.... CDing makes a strong marriage a weak one? Then, one more crisis or issue comes along and snaps it, puts the marriage into the fail column. If it wasn't for the weakened state from the CDing, the marriage would have survived the whatever other crisis. It is kind of a circle.

Back to the X factors. CDing is survivable..... But, how does the partner view it, their beliefs, open or close mindedness to it. How long before it becomes known... months, years, decades? How did it become known, slowly telling bits and pieces, discovery without intent to tell, full upfront disclosure.... Is the CDing sexual/fetish in nature, is the CDer more inclined to need a full transformation but rarely vs some gender crossing on a regular basis.... And partners are as varied on their likes or abilities to deal with and tolerate based on the type of CDing. But what they might be ok with is opposite with what the CDer desires or needs.

My wife and I have had discussions about CDing along the way, I am not in a true DADT. My wife has talked about the "full plate" and that goes in with any general type of marital survey about strength and survival. A marriage without a full plate of problems and issues will likely survive one coming in. Not saying CDing has to be a problem, but it will generally at least fall into the issue column. If a lot is going on already, and CDing comes into the mix, then that might be the straw that breaks the camels back.... Is it really CDing, or just too much overload? It really can just go around and around and around.

I think most of us can agree that CDing, if it does not approach transsexualism without a already stressed marriage has a good chance at survival, but, could weaken it substantially. Then, if other issues come up, crisis, health, finance, you name it, which would otherwise have survived but for the CDing that came into play..... So what really is to blame? I think that becomes extremely subjective, just depends on how any one individual looks at it.

[Jenniferathome]

When you put it that way, it doesn't surprise me that some members don't want to look at the overall health of their marriage and instead want to blame their wives. You put it in terms of "your failings" which comes off as placing the blame for a marital failure on the CDer's part. Small words are important. ...

I should have written that "one's failings" applies to both parties in a relationship. Asking two people to be objective is like some log function. Really hard.

[ReineD]

Yes we can say the ultimate cause of the end of a marriage would be one or more of the "Four Horsemen" but the question will remain what was the trumpet call that sent them charging in the first place? Was it financial issues, sex issues, family issues, or a whole host of other issues?
Could cross-dressing be the trumpet? Could a loving wife turn contemptuous upon learning that her husband is a cross-dressers?

No. People who have good relationships (because they've had good relationship skills all along that include a willingness and ability to communicate, listen and compromise) do not forget these skills when issues come to the fore. If a wife turns contemptuous when she learns of the CDing it is because she is unable to see her husband's needs or state of mind and she is unwilling to work with him. This doesn't just pop-op out of the blue when couples feel connected. Even if the wife doesn't like the idea of CDing, she will not stonewall, become defensive, be contemptuous or criticize her husband. She will instead say, "I don't like the idea of the CDing but I'm willing to listen to what you have to say about it and if it important to you I'm willing to learn. I ask though that you give me time to wrap my mind around it". And if the husband is not contemptuous he will say, "I understand this is a surprise for you and I want to help you by not going too fast. Let's work on it in baby steps and find the best possible compromise for us."

[Katey888]

Marcelle, I do agree with you that it is NOT notable in the findings that "CDing is not a reason for divorce", simply because the crossdressing was not examined in the study. And I may be guilty of making the assumption that Jen knows this because she read the study, so what she means instead is "this study shows dysfunctional behaviors that lead to divorce and if they are not present in a marriage, then the CDing in itself need not cause divorce."

Hands up everyone who has actually READ the study...???

i haven't read the full study ...

It's only 8 pages long - perhaps we all should have done at the outset... :

The study was published in a peer-reviewed journal (Journal of Marriage and Family) but it was published in 2000 regarding the study that had started in 1983 and closed in 1997. My first thoughts on learning the dates of the study have been echoed many times by members here - simply, that folk back in the 1980s-90s just didn't have the same resources we have today to understand aspects of being CD/TG and therefore participants would not be likely to have the same sort of discussions they could today - three decades later - because at that time, CDing may well have been regarded as at least a psychological disorder and possibly even something that was broadly illegal, depending on your location (the study took place in Indiana - I have no idea of state laws at that time).

That may well have prevented or discouraged participants from discussing any CD/TG aspects in front of researchers - however, they may still have done and it could still have been one of the factors that contributed to a divorce. Why? I hear you ask... Because if you read the study, you will see that the methodology for research was to conduct interactive sessions with the participants that took the following structure:

They had three 15-minute conversations with regard to (a) events of the day, (b) conflict resolution (discussion of a problem area of continuing disagreement), and (c) a mutually agreed upon, pleasant topic.

[My bold]
The study allowed participants to choose this 'problem area' and did not report back on any specifics related to what this was in detail. Given what we read here a lot from our DADT and freshly revealed folk, it's no great stretch to consider the possibility that CDing may very well have fallen into 'a problem area of continuing disagreement' as many here report continually, so in that context, CDing WOULD BE one of the elements that lead to (the 4 Horsemen plus contextual examples):
Contempt - from wives towards husbands that inexplicably want to dress as women...
Criticism - for obsessing with hair and new dresses...
Defensiveness - because these guys really believe they have a femme side...
Stonewalling - refusing to give it up "because it's a part of who they are"...

Jennifer - you're entitled to your opinion, but here's my problem with your starting point:

Notable in these findings is that cross dressing, of course, is not a reason for divorce. This study can help to objectively measure how solid things really are.

I think it's clear that it is not possible to derive this from the study - it's just not that simple. But I might surprise you now - I DO AGREE with these points that you made more recently:

Cross dressing is just a piece amongst many pieces that make up a relationship.

What is clear from the emotions here is that objectivity, self-reflection, whatever you choose to call it, is frightening. Objectivity is a rare trait it means you have to admit your failings.

I've admitted already I have them - and I know that my wife has some too - and I further have a good idea that some of them probably aren't fixable (on both sides) - so while I can see that it's an admirable ideal to be able to fix these issues which we already compromise over, are you prepared to accept that for some people with insoluble issues it makes it much more difficult (and impractical if not impossible) to be prepared to reveal a further mega-weird issue that might just be the last straw...?

Those are the people I want to protect from the idea that CDing is not a dealbreaker... folk like me.

Katey x

[ReineD]

Katey, I think we already know that Jen didn't use the most accurate words to convey her meaning in the OP.

To the people who take it that Jen believes the CDing was included in the study and was proven to not be a cause in divorce, this is not what she meant. She meant there is little chance to resolve the CDing if the dysfunctional, divorce-causing behaviors outlined in the study are present in a marriage.

[Jenniferathome]

Katey, the "full study" means the actual submission of the study for peer review. Not the synopsis, which I read and linked here.

[mykell]

OK i ..... I used to do a search of CD.com,

https://www.google.com/search?q=cros...ssdressers.com

i know all the results are not relevant but the percentage is from our site, (and yes this very thread is in the results) now add all the things we dont know here, those that just joined and were caught from overexposure from the ties to theyre devises and received the auto notifications, outed by default, wifey just got it while using your tablet, cant count them, a popular thread for most who first join,

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...rst-crossdress

youll recognize some but look at the ones with only a few posts, e-mail notifications scared them away or they got caught perhaps, the ones that left the browser open or any other careless thing imaginable, ive left things out and was lucky no one saw or questioned something out of place, cant count those instances that result in divorce, just examples and yes added to the other horseman attributes will add to this but crossdressing may be the final straw, or the thing that motivates the" horseman 4" into motion, now add in the ones who revealed that did not go well, all will not stick around to have us poke the dead carcus, never heard from again...


im just trying to add some perspective with a sample from our community as were stuck on the validity of the research, and were not the only forum for crossdressing.....cant count them.

[sarahcsc]

unnfortunately, because I am an advocate of coming out my motivations are questioned by some and attacked by others. Cross dressing is just a piece amongst many pieces that make up a relationship.
[/COLOR]

The reason to come out is highly personal and variable and people come out not just for the sake of their marriage, but also for the sake of their own mental well-being. We can all agree that having poor mental well-being will have an adverse affect on relationships in general.

I'm afraid there is not a "one-size-fits-all" approach when it comes to coming out, even in the presence of a robust and well conducted study(in this case, a study with many limitations). Every couple is unique with its own trials and tribulations.

I am an advocate of "making-the-most-informed-decision-and-taking-responsibility-for-it".

Simply saying, we can only do what we think is best at the time and although having empirical evidence helps with our decision-making process, it should not be taken too literally. For example, there is ample evidence that crossing the road increases you risk of getting hit by a car, but that doesn't stop us from crossing it anyways.

Taking responsibility in this context, simply means that one must be ready to own the consequences for themselves without attributing it to other external factors. I believe there is merit is living an "authentic" life and by that we must be willing to own up to our actions and do things "our way" despite the consequences. As Frank Sinatra put it eloquently, "I did it my way".

Having said that, I still believe the 4 horsemen article was a good read and serves as a valuable guide in contemporary marriages, despite its limitations.

Love,
S

[ReluctantDebutant]

Rather than beat around the bush I thought about looking for surveys that actually address the questions of cross-dressing, wives, marriage, and divorce. I came across this article on the first page http://www.tgforum.com/wordpress/ind...e-ii-report-3/. It surveyed 210 wives of cross-dressers and collected a lot of raw data. what seems relevant to this discussion is that while 30% of the women surveyed thought about divorce only 8% actually did divorce their cross-dressing husbands. What I think is really feared by cross-dressers is the 78% who wished their spouse didn't cross-dress and nearly 70% of the wives said there had been a loss of intimacy due to crossdressing. One-third reported that crossdressing had caused “a very harmful impact” on their marital sexual relationship. About one-third become more disgusted and negative. About one-third change little or not at all. About one-third changes somewhat in a positive direction.

[ReineD]

OK i ..... I used to do a search of CD.com,

Mikell, I'm sorry but we can't assume that what CDers say here after a divorce is objective. Of course they'll think their SOs left them because the SO's hated the thought that a man should want to wear women's clothes. It's just so much easier to pin it on the SO's hate of the CDing than to look deeply into their dynamics and see where both parties contributed to the marriage's dysfunction even before the CDing was an issue. But, if you got all those women here, I bet they'd tell you a different story.

I have a good reason for saying this. One, I've heard both sides of the story over the years from dozens of couples, and the wife's account seldom matches the husband's.

Two and this is a more concrete example (I wish it had happened more often), but a new-ish CDer had started a thread saying how non-accepting his wife was. Every member took his side and some were even angry at the wife .... until she found this forum on her own, recognized the circumstances her husband had described, joined the forum, and posted directly in the thread telling everyone the second half of the story that the husband had not shared.

And then all the members understood. Their advice to the OP took a 180 degree turn. lol.

Still, if you want to see the other side of all the "divorced because she hates the CDing" search result, take a look at the "accepting and tolerating spouses who don't leave their husbands":

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...portive+so%2C+


Bottom line ... if you really want to know how GGs react to all of this and why, then it's simple: Go straight to the horse's mouth and pay attention what the GGs say in their threads. Close attention. Unfortunately I think that a lot of the GG's posts are ignored around here. I guess it feels better to kvetch than to look inwardly.

[mykell]

hi reine, i did see this this morning but did not have time to address it,
like i said not all those threads pulled up from our site were going to be relevant or apply and again there are other CDing sites,

my basic premise was that everyone was throwing about stats any surveys and numbers, i was trying to point out that we have numbers here and like most say that we never can find a true percentage of crossdressers that exist how could we ever find a true number of folks that divorced as a root cause and or coupled by the existing or caused in addition to CDing the characteristics with our four horsemen. theyre are so many not even being counted for whatever reason and wanted to throw that into the mix.

sorry to go off topic....
i think i pay attention to what the GGs say here and once asked the we had a dedicated ask a GG thread and in no uncertain terms was told that it was never going to happen been there done that and it was a disaster..... but i always find it very hard to follow the sticky thread and honestly gave up on it, i feel the reason the forum is what it is "is because of the GGs" but most dont bother to come into our section or follow it and at most its a small percentage of dedicated respondents, you being well on top of the list and very informative and knowledgeable....