What is it to feel and identify as transgender... Is it a happy middle ground...?

[Katey888]

REPLIES ONLY FROM THOSE THAT IDENTIFY COMFORTABLY WITH TRANSGENDER PLEASE

To complement the current thread "Are there those here that are know inside they are really TS?" and inspired by Becky77...

So we’ve recently had a thread on ‘just’ CDing, we have one running currently on knowing that one is “really TS” and in that thread Becky raised a couple of questions that said a lot to me about something that I’ve realised for some time but thought perhaps it was worth discussing using Becky’s questions as a framework and to try to keep this just for those folk that are in accord with the generally accepted definition of transgender – and yes, I know we use it as an umbrella term, but I’d just like to see replies from those that are happy with this description of themselves – to recap:

Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.

Becky’s questions/points that caught my attention:

Two things I am confused about.
1) I think there are a lot of Male identified Crossdressers that consider themselves to have mixed internal gender, when in fact they are confusing a need to dress like a woman or express femininity as an identity, it isn't. It's just a man that has a strong drive to express a feminine look.
2) I don't understand Gender fluid or inbetweener.
Marcelle was the first person to make me believe Gender fluid was possible and then she says actually she is TS. I honestly don't know if it's possible to be two different genders/personalities or if that person is just in denial or deluded? Bit like Bipolar? If that's the case then surely it's a pretty unpleasant way to live?

For me, the first point fits me best, so let me try to expand on what this means for me and why I am happy to be considered transgender and why this is part of me and my identity that cannot be corralled into exclusively male or female.

Yes, I am predominantly male identified. I don’t know that I consider myself to have a 'mixed' internal gender but perhaps it must be to some degree... However you describe it there is clearly a strong need (not just desire) to express myself in a visually feminine way. This isn’t to attract men (not gay or bi) but at the same time I wouldn’t want to be seen as unattractive – but then who would..? Over decades I have endeavoured to have ‘fun’ with this (something of a euphemism for past sexual self-gratification but not in recent years ) whether dressing alone or finally going out in public – but I don’t dress for fun: finding a way to have fun (socially) is a way of somehow just making this inexplicable need more palatable. I don’t feel like a man “that has a strong drive to express a feminine look” when I am transformed – it is more than that. I do feel that the transformation – visually representational as it is – acts as a conduit for something that is a part of my identity that does not predominate, but is strong enough that it has to find an outlet. Dressing isn’t just about the clothes as it seems to be for many - it's a means to an end – the clothes are just part of the overall image that lets me yell at the world “I may be a male underneath this, but look how much more is enabled when I can express myself physically to the world in this other aspect of me…” and for me that is accentuated by mannerisms, posture, movement… and the feeling of being able to comfortably express all of that, in an image that I know most of vanilla society will see as feminine, if not female, is what curiously gives me comfort and satisfaction - I think that's why we have the need to express it in public to find affirmation and validate our expression – it’s a release perhaps similar to an artist completing a painting or a composer a piece of music. The painting is more than just paint on canvas – it’s both representational and expressive of how the artist sees the world and their interaction with it and it portrays a message of their feeling and their perspective that others can see and experience… and probably sometimes includes their identity.

So it’s so much more than just portraying a ‘look’ – and it also has it’s unpleasant side in knowing that you can never be satisfied with the one-way ‘switch’ from one to the other (as with TS) and being locked in one mode – it’s a life that’s full of the conflict of being comfortable (generally) in one, but knowing that the other aspect must find a release every so often, to feel complete fulfilment. I can totally understand why TS-folk and singularly male-identified CDers would not understand this and the strength of the need that drives us to be secretive because of our fear of discovery and misunderstanding, or take risks to find a way to express this aspect of us – it’s really not a simple thing and in some ways more difficult to come to terms with when ones gender expression needs to flip-flop or oscillates in-between with a mixture of modes.

So – can other happily identifying TG folk give me their perspectives too…? I'm sure we'll have someone able to fill in for the GQ/GF/in-between folk...?

(And please, please don’t chip in with – “I’m not TG but…” - if you don’t feel it, you’ve probably already stated that clearly in alternate threads... Thanks... )

And if you read to the end...

Katey x

[mykell]

WOW, thats a mouthful katey, may have to hit the tequila earlier,

so ive been in a funk with this lately and have been rather sarcastic, (More so than usual) and also had a failed denial thread also....some posts about going on here that made me falter or question my goals and accomplishments...

as i travel this road i read and learn and benefit from the perspectives of talking here and in a support group where i get a better understanding while looking in the eye of folks struggling with everyday situations, the pain, the triumphs, the heartbreak, the sadness in the eyes and the smiles on the lips, older younger, friend, family, and the support that is shared at all levels and stops on the journeys we embark.

for me it is not that i feel one is different from the other, i am always 'Me' but i have more fun as one than the other, the same concerns, do i look OK, but i fuss more with the female presentation to get it right and of coarse it takes more preparation to hide the male tells, so its easier to be my male side, but i always yearn to be my female self also, no switch so to say.....its just matters what life activities are needed to be accomplished....

its easier to go to work male but their are days i wish i could go as a female, but it is just to much trouble and consequences if done, going to a store not as much, shopping male or female if it has to be done it gets done.....comfortable more now than in my younger years. driving not an issue at all, attending support with peers was the easiest thing i have done....but when i do it it is not a different part or person it is just me,

before i got here i would say i was just a crossdresser, but since ive been here i learned that it is so much more, its a community that you sit down with and share lots of common feeling and thoughts, victories and failures, co-operation and combativeness....but at the core we truly are not what folks in the wild consider conforming to theyre minds eye of what our gender is supposed to be.....so im transgender and its not a gang its a club.....

[AllieSF]

Once I understood what TG stood for based on this site's definition, which I understand follows similar definitions from other sources, I readily accepted that umbrella label/definition for me. I have been here from just after I started dressing as a woman and just before I stepped out of the house for the first time. As many on this site say, I have no idea why I started to fully dress as a woman. I do know that any telltales from the past are very questionable as indicators of things to emerge when I was almost 60 years old. I just knew from that first moment fully dressed with makeup, wig and accessories that I was very happily amazed and knew that I had to explore this side of me, this other new activity much more. I believe that all this happens along a spectrum from panty wearers to post-op TS. I also understand from everything I read here and conversations with others that there is a distinct difference and separation between TS and the rest of us with many similarities too.

I know that I have been moving along that spectrum and may be already in that "tweener" zone. I have to ask myself occasionally why have I spent a little over 4 years and thousands of dollars to remove my facial hair, pierced my ears, keep polish on my finger and toe nails, grown my hair to below my shoulder blades, have a wardrobe of mostly thrift store clothes that would permit me to go full time many times over, and the last more important question where is this all going. My quick answer is because it makes me very happy. But I know that it is much more than that.

Since the science and research to-date is limited, some frequently asked questions may never be answered in my lifetime. I am, however, beginning to think that whatever is inside of us non-TS's that compels us to go against social custom may be very similar to, and maybe even the same as what affects TS's. It could be that for us non-TS's we just have a lower powered version of what TS's have and will stop somewhere along the path. In other words, for some and definitely not all, we may continue along the spectrum until we reach a point where we feel that we are better balanced, both internally/emotionally and externally regarding how we fit into society, including family, work, friends and the rest of that real outside world. As some of my respected friends sometimes say, I am a CD+++ and/or gender fluid. Like Mikell, I am always me no matter how presenting. I am just not sure now who is the whole me! Hopefully, I will continue to learn and improve and eventually find my position on our multicolored and faceted rainbow.

[TaraGrace]

Hmm, respond or not.. tick tock, hit the reply button..
thanks for the execellent read all, I have to comment here too

Ceera, thanks so much for your first post, that was a 90% match of what I would have written.. slighty strange even to find a match so close to mine.
we split up a bit on your second post, but I might be able to add atleast some info to your text.

So I've only discovered Tara lurking in the background a few months ago, and coming here was an excellent decision, piecing back bits of puzzle talking and reading has at least put my mind at ease that it's not just something I was curious for, but simply put in a wrong tick-box for years.

I don't identify with a man who wants to look female either, just judging by the amount of messages I sent out with hugs/kisses/sweetie/hun etc. whilst not even slightly looking fem.
Nor do I feel as a woman trapped in a male body, I'm quite happy to look at the mirror image of both faces and say "hey you, you look great".

I have however for many years thought my femine side was due to my bi-sexuality, and there is a shoppinglist of clues I simply ticked off as "bi".
Only recently realising that shopping, makeup, conversation etc. it CAN turn me on, but 9 out of 10 times it is not sexual at all.
Which in retrospect wisdom I should have known as even my bi side is prodominantly domminant and not passive.

Like Ceera mentions (and thanks so much for this, I totally forgot I had once quite actively done this), I too have roleplayed as a female.. the internet was new (92-93) and at age 16-17 there were several IRC chat channels I was in as female.
Ok, sure.. I'll admit to some flirting and sexual tension, but 95% it was 'clean' and what teen doesn't enjoy a bit of flirting

As much as I adore TS, and sure a part desires being a complete woman, changing sex from M to F wouldn't fit.. I enjoy both too much, so shapeshifting
Remember "I dream of Jeannie"? The very best childhood dreams were being able to fly.. the second best were having Jeannie power to blink my eyes and switch gender!

.....

Ceera, to add to your second post ;

I can follow why you mention on MPD (and interesting enough my father was the male part of a m/f twin according to my grandmother with the girl dying in labour).
But here we don't align.. I have a constant basic mindset if you will which (symbolicly speaking) I choose to hang centre-left or centre-right.. not left or right.

Tara isn't younger either, although as Tara I am far less experienced, so enclined to seek out new things.
And sure, being Tara enables a more playfull side too, but lets not forget default m/f differences.., just compared to business clothing.. there's a limited amount of male clothing choices, where the female wardrobe can be endlessly mixed and matched.

As for bravery.. hmm, I am lucky to have found confidence and change my life years ago.
So no big differences there, perhaps as Tara I am a bit more direct, but most likely due to catching up, where as certain things in male mode are 'been there, done that'.

But then again, I do share a very similar experience, and yes I do aknowledge that led to some serious denial issues and even homophobia for some years.
Having asked myself the question for years "did these events shape my mind, or even make me the way I am now?"..
I figured out years ago it's a simple "no" -> but it did mess me up and is most likely why Tara was hidden for 20-30 years.
Age 20-25 seemed to take forever, and accepting my bi-sexuality eventually had consumed so much energy, I guess also some overcompensation (hurray world I am bi-sexual) so my mind attributed girlie features or thoughts to being bi-sexual to confirm being bi.
such a pitty I wasted years, but perhaps good, as 25 -> 30 were awesome in confidence building.

So how do I see it.. well, almost like I see bi-sexuality.. it's just a door in my brain opened because I found a key and used it.
Perhaps simply put ; it's like eating/drinking something new and deciding yes, this was nice, let's have some more next time too.
ps, I actually try food I don't like atleast once a year.. since tastebuds changed over the years, it's always intertaining to try

x Tara

[mechamoose]

So how do I see it.. well, almost like I see bi-sexuality.. it's just a door in my brain opened because I found a key and used it.
Perhaps simply put ; it's like eating/drinking something new and deciding yes, this was nice, let's have some more next time too.
ps, I actually try food I don't like atleast once a year.. since tastebuds changed over the years, it's always intertaining to try

People are people. If someone is cool, they are cool. What does it matter what bits they have, especially in THIS community?

GMs and GG's are different. They smell different, they taste different. Both have their own attractions and repulsions.

You either like them or you don't.

Please don't conflate your desires with your identity. They have nothing to do with each other.

- MM

[TaraGrace]

People are people. If someone is cool, they are cool. What does it matter what bits they have, especially in THIS community?

GMs and GG's are different. They smell different, they taste different. Both have their own attractions and repulsions.

You either like them or you don't.

Please don't conflate your desires with your identity. They have nothing to do with each other.

- MM

hiya Moose, I honestly tried to understand but I really can't.. so I have to ask.. did you quote me by mistake?

x Tara

[Ceera]

Well, I think I qualify as 'happily transgender'. The term 'gender fluid' also fits me pretty well. I flip back and forth at will.

I certainly don't identify as 'a man who wants to just look female'. When I want to be Ceera, I become, in as much as is possible without surgical alteration, a female version of myself, with a rather different personality than my male side.

I also don't identify as 'a woman trapped in a male body', with a need to transition fully and get surgeries to make my body as female as my mind is. I don't dislike my male parts. I just don't think they fully express who and what I am.

I was born and raised as a male, and for most of my life, despite inclinations to the contrary, I tried to adhere to the expected gender binary male role. I denied and repressed my female aspect, and 'played it straight'. I knew I was bisexual, but suppressed it. Father was homophobic and never could have accepted me being anything but straight. But I knew I has most of the same feelings in looking at some males that females had. I just didn't dare act on them.

Over the years, I realized there were a lot of other 'female things' that I enjoyed far more than a male is supposed to in our society. Women's clothes, makeup, jewelry, shoes... all those tangible things appealed to me. But it went further than that. I found I could roleplay a female character so convincingly that others, who interacted with me on-line for years, were solidly convinced I was a real girl. But it wasn't just me enjoying the clothes and accessories. Behaviors, attitudes and priorities shifted accordingly. It also didn't matter if the character I was portraying was straight, lesbian or a hermaphrodite (both gender's 'functional bits' in one body). My mind can shift and adapt freely between the gender roles.

Honestly, if I could have one wish regarding myself, it would be to have the ability to do a true shapeshift, at will and as often as I want, between the forms of a genetic girl and my male self, with everything properly scaled and proportioned and functional for the change. Then my body would match what my mind feels like.

As a woman, I'm much taller and more broad shouldered than most genetic girls. Yet I still manage to believably present as female, to the extent that GG's that I am chatting with seem oblivious that I am not also a GG by birth and by what's in my panties.

For the last couple of years I've allowed my female side free reign. When I want to go out as a girl, I transform myself and do it. And it feels good. It feels right.

In some regards, it's as if there were two mindsets within me - one male, and the other, female. It's hard to explain, but it's very real for me. And it makes me happy.

[Tracii G]

Happily in the middle somewhere.
I don't stress about the hows and whys or the minutia involved.

[Robin414]

Hi Katey, ya I did read to the end (my ADD is making me twitchy)...oh look, a rabbit...arrrg stay focused 😧

I'd say right now I'm happily 'TG' based on the formal definition. That said though I still think of TG as having gone all the way (presenting en femme 100% of the time)...but that's only because of the definition of 'Trans', if I take a 'trans' Atlantic flight I don't think I'd be too happy stopping somewhere 'tween' for any length of time, good thing the 'fluid' in 'gender fluid' isn't ice cold salt water 😂

I like to think I'm happy being somewhere be'tween' but I'm also beginning to think it's like balancing on a tight rope, maybe it's not a 'stable condition'. I know many people CAN live there indefinitely, I think.

I admit, I'm still kinda new to this and I'm sooo far from where I was I'm still working on self efficacy...I think that's the key, being yourself, while being 'yourself'...or in my case 'my new self'

Oh, and I do open some posts with the ol' "I'm not TG but..." but only when I'm barging in on a thread in the TS forum (so I don't get beat up too badly 😢 ) 😂

[GretchenJ]

Hey Katey,

using your our post as a primer, I can give you a better understanding of how I feel.

Based upon your definition, I would most definitely feel that I am TG, and more specifically gender fluid.

Yes, I am predominantly male identified. I don’t know that I consider myself to have a 'mixed' internal gender but perhaps it must be to some degree...

I am predominantly male identified EXTERNALLY but internally, I believe that are aspects of my personality traits that are both male and female simultaneously. My therapist believes in this regards, that internally, I am much more female than male and I tend to believe that assessment

However you describe it there is clearly a strong need (not just desire) to express myself in a visually feminine way. This isn’t to attract men (not gay or bi) but at the same time I wouldn’t want to be seen as unattractive

It is a need to express myself on the outside as well, it is to put a face, a personna to how I feel on the inside. It is a constant work in progress and has expanded and deepened over time, Two years ago, I would have worn anything, but recently I have developed a style that is constantly being redefined and is solely individual - it is not to attract men, but rather to seek acceptance from the public at large.

This is why my desire to just dress at home and not go out has waned for me, it must be for a purpose, and it must be out in public - unless my inability to become Gretchen for a long period of time increases my stress which dictates me just staying home.

I don’t feel like a man “that has a strong drive to express a feminine look” when I am transformed – it is more than that. I do feel that the transformation – visually representational as it is – acts as a conduit for something that is a part of my identity that does not predominate, but is strong enough that it has to find an outlet. Dressing isn’t just about the clothes as it seems to be for many - it's a means to an end – the clothes are just part of the overall image that lets me yell at the world “I may be a male underneath this, but look how much more is enabled when I can express myself physically to the world in this other aspect of me…” and for me that is accentuated by mannerisms, posture, movement… and the feeling of being able to comfortably express all of that, in an image that I know most of vanilla society will see as feminine

Spot on!!!!!! I could not have said it any better, and that is totally me as well

So it’s so much more than just portraying a ‘look’ – and it also has it’s unpleasant side in knowing that you can never be satisfied with the one-way ‘switch’ from one to the other (as with TS) and being locked in one mode – it’s a life that’s full of the conflict of being comfortable (generally) in one, but knowing that the other aspect must find a release every so often, to feel complete fulfilment.

At the end of the day, when I put the wig back and clean up, there is still the feelings of guilt, and a little sadness, but I am energized and ready to renew myself to try to be as good of a person, husband and father that I can be. I do treasure my male side as well, which sets be apart from those who detest their born as gender.

Gretch

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Katey,
Can I please get the name of that California wine?
Gotta get me some of that! Holy crap girlfriend what a great post!
When this CD thing reappeared in my life a few years back, I had never (not once) given a thought
to what it meant to be TG. Shortly after joining the forum I read through the definitions sticky.
At that time I still didn't give a thought as to if I fit the definition. After being a member here for a while,
reading, posting, and learning more about myself, and how much my thoughts and feelings seemed to be reflected
in soooo many others responses, really made me think about what I was doing, and how CDing had always been
a part of my life. Sure it would come and go, but it was always there.
Then at some point I come across a look into Gender Dysphoria, WTF ? Is there a treatment for that.
Massive doses of antibiotics? Steroids? Nooo! Turns out it's hormones (so I hear anyway) and then possibly falling deeper down that "rabbit" (Yeah...calm down Robin!) hole.
Then I got to thinkin', and have posted this thought in some form before.... We all dress. (DUH ! But not my point)
We all crossdress (except possibly a few drag performers here) completely for our own satisfaction.
Wether it be done at home in private, or out in public, we all get some sort of satisfaction from it.
Regardless of anyone's personal preference, or level of dress expression, there is some form of Gender Dysphoria
going on.
With all that said, and given the general definition provided,
I'm HAPPILY able to identify myself as TG. (OH NO!!! What's next?)
Chill out people! Identifying as TG won't change your life, if anything
it may just open it.
Much Love,
Kristyn
BTW Katey, don't think I forgot. I'm waiting for that label !

[Jazzy Jaz]

Interesting! I just spent a long time (I'm a very slow typer) posting on the former current thread about this responding to those questions without noticing and having no idea that this thread was started. Its too long to repost here so, I guess its there.

[pamela7]

transgender includes TS in my world view. My sense of GID has changed over this last year, hugely thanks to debates here. I have a happiness dressed en-femme that is entirely missing if even one piece of mancloth is present. Something as simple as a pair of trackies, well the ladies ones feel nicer, softer, easier on my skin which has always been super-soft - and made some women envious over the years - and so yes a woman in a male body makes me TG.

and yes i did read to the end - that long paragraph included.

[Dana44]

Katey, great thread... As you all know I am gender fluid. It is a strange thing as we are not comfortable in our own skin as one gender. It does put us in the middle of the TG spectrum. But it seems that over time one drifts closer to one gender than the other. Hopefully it goes back toward the birth gender. As a male who gets to express his fem side. Well, the fem side seems better, but is it really. As a male I've accomplished many great things and am still doing it. But this male is getting more and more feminine all of the time. I would never transition fully to a female as I could never be comfortable with that either. A very strange place to be.

[mechamoose]

I swerve all over that road and line like a Scotsman on a late Friday night.

There is no single correct answer. We each have to answer for ourselves about identity and courage to express it. Our own risks and gains.

Buy seriously, it may be RELATED to sexuality, bit it ISN'T sexuality. Different issue, honest.

- MM

[Zoe B]

I was not entirely sure if I should hit the reply button or not, I have been reading all your comments and it has been an amazing read from beginning to end. Nervous as I am I thought I should get my opinions down now.

When I first started dressing I would have put myself in the cross dressers category, but more recently I have started to discover that it is more than that, I am currently a student on a gender studies course and while I have been working through the CD-TG-TS section I have come to realize that Zoe is me or at least a part of me that I have to express and not exclusively through dressing.

Yes I am predominately male and I am happy being so but there is a part of me that I just can't keep hidden or ignore, enter Zoe she allows me to express my more feminine side and see things in a very different way to my male side. Yes I dress and I use that to show me in my full capacity as me. I do not want to switch to being a female full time as I would miss my male persona. But I find that I have to allow myself to be feminine in all aspects or I start to lose myself.

I am sure I am rambling by this point so I will apologize right now but I didn't want to miss the opportunity of responding this time.

Zoe

[mechamoose]

When that self comes out, it *won't* go back in the box, no matter how hard you try. It will pop up over and over. Accept it an embrace it, you don't really have a choice anymore.

Providing that you are being truthful with yourself.You have identified a change, go with it.

The wheel turns...

- Mystical Moose

[becky77]

Katey, great thread... As you all know I am gender fluid. It is a strange thing as we are not comfortable in our own skin as one gender. It does put us in the middle of the TG spectrum. But it seems that over time one drifts closer to one gender than the other. Hopefully it goes back toward the birth gender. As a male who gets to express his fem side. Well, the fem side seems better, but is it really. As a male I've accomplished many great things and am still doing it. But this male is getting more and more feminine all of the time. I would never transition fully to a female as I could never be comfortable with that either. A very strange place to be.

Dana44 You are very vocal on saying you are Genderfluid. As I understand it that means that your very identity swings from male to female?
But are you being honest with yourself? Is your gender truly fluid or do you just want to dress as a woman sometimes and at other times not?

I ask this as I'm not sure everyone is being truthful in regards to identify vs expression.

For example in a previous thread you said this:
Lexi, that is a great point. I do think that some ... do think we are good. They are most likely shocked. For why I do not know. Women crossdresss virtually every day and never ask what we thought of them or why it may have bothered us. I said before in a forum that in fact with many men that I have talked to was that if she doesn't get in heels soon a divorce may be coming. Men want a woman that looks like one. Now the rolls seemed switched. It's funny that we set the fashion every time we go out wearing skirts while every woman out there has pants on. When a woman come into a store in a nice skirt and heels. All of the men look at her with admiration. So women crossdress as men - no problem. Men crossdress as women - problem? Yeah I agree... they pine on it for sure.
I must say that my SO wears a dress or miniskirt when we go out. I have told her that I truly appreciated that.

I'm sorry but I do not believe a woman or someone claiming to have a part woman identity would ever say this.
I would expect if you were truly gender fluid you would understand why that opinion is just wrong and frankly misogynistic. It smacks of a sexualised ideal of a woman not someone with genuine female empathy.

I'm not saying being Gender fluid is a myth but so far I haven't seen an honest example other than Marcelle. Who now admits to being TS.
I'm genuinely intrigued and wish to learn but I fear a few people just can't be honest with themselves. My main confusion being that each time I ask why someone feels they are in the middle they inevitably talk about being feminine in a way that borders on stereotyping.

What I want to hear about is the internal dialogue, those feelings of being different and how it surfaces in a relationship and social interactions.
How does it come out in friendships etc.The clothes are meaningless when it comes to true Gender identity.
For example if you are closeted but out with friends how does your mixed gender surface, are your friends also mixed?
Forgetting for now about the dressing does being dual gender cause issues with being intimate with someone?

Hope you don't mind the questions but this is a great learning tool.

[mykell]

hi becky,

the original aspect was transgender, an umbrella term which i felt i answered honestly i believe.......

as for gender fluid, i do feel that i am fluid, how to convey why......during parties and events i will say i gravitate to a womens circle of conversations, even in my support group. sometimes with the transmen ? ( think thats the right term ? ) while talking with them i am not as comfortable with... like when im in a circle of macho guys and move off to find better conversation, now of coarse their are times when i enjoy the banter and camaraderie when hanging out with guys as well....just more comfortable with the ladies, this goes back as far as i remember, even played and hung out with the girls in the neighborhood, barbie and whatnot, but still played in little league and stuff....

as far as relationships, sex, dont want to embellish on it in the open forum....

when in a mall i could shop for hours in guy mode with my wife and window shop all the time, but my preference is the ladies section and womens shops, male clothes are minimalist and basic for me, 6 pirs of shoes and sneaks all black, always interested in the looks and colors of womens fashion, not just wearing them....

would rip out every root of hair on my body if it would not piss off my wife, but have been shaving my legs for the first winter after cajoling my wife, will not be pleased when i have to start letting it come back in for the summer....

so im me and im me whichever way i dress, male is just easier, more accepted, conventional, just started getting out dressed female and it seamed to easy but i have very limited time with the natives in the wild....

[Pat]

I'm not saying being Gender fluid is a myth but so far I haven't seen an honest example other than Marcelle.

What I want to hear about is the internal dialogue, those feelings of being different and how it surfaces in a relationship and social interactions.

OK, I'll ignore the implication that we need to satisfy you to get our transgender identity approved and suggest some things you *ought* to be looking for. One is the recurring theme of behavior traceable back to early childhood. Frequently it's pre-pubescent which argues it's not a sexual trigger though it could still be a desire to emulate a female figure in the person's life -- Mom or a sister, say. If you go down the road of emulation, then you have to examine why they desire to emulate that person when so many other males do not. It could argue an emotional cause (momma's boy) or it could argue that there is recognition of a female role model because that role is "baked in" to that person. Ducks can be brought up imprinted on humans, but they're always ducks. Perhaps for some little boys can be brought up to be males but they'll alway be that other thing -- if you're willing to admit that other thing exists.

Then examine (and believe) the stories of people who describe their first conscious encounter with their female identities. Frequently those people describe an emotional shock on seeing "her" for the first time. Again, a shock of recognition. I'd say recognition that a suppressed part of their identity has been revealed. The experience is not unlike when you stop telling a complex lie or, more colloquially, when you stop hitting yourself with a hammer. The person suddenly realizes they should have been that all the time. Often coupled with unbidden tears.

Then consider the testimony of people who describe dressing for "stress relief" or how they dress more in times when there's stress in their lives. Compare that to relationship stress where couples argue about inconsequential things when the problem in their lives is sex. The mechanism is that externally they're in a fierce argument over whether butter belongs in the fridge or out of it, but the argument is really about sex -- but they don't want to talk about that, internally they're saying to themselves "I'm not putting up with our sex life and the butter too!" so they argue about the butter. People describing themselves talk about dressing relieving the stress in their lives, but it's just as plausible that the underlying, constant stress is NOT dressing (i.e. not acknowledging their mixed state) and adding external stress puts them over the edge. The clothes, in fact, are just clothes. But they are a focus. They invoke the female component of their personality that they've been suppressing so they can be Good Men.

Their internal dialog may not be apparent because we haven't (yet) taught people how to handle a transgender life. We provide no role models of what a successful transgender person looks like or behaves, so everyone is stumbling around in the dark trying to fit bits and pieces together. Yeah, we don't have a good story to tell the transgender deniers yet.

Transgender people I know have passed through the world of "manly men" reasonably well. They've learned their duties and responsibilities as men and can doggedly stick to them. (I did.) They are often alienated from manly men and don't know why. They are often creative loners because they have difficulty establishing common ground with other men and they are unwelcome in the world of women. In my case when I finally felt that I had discharged all my responsibilities I started "moving more toward the feminine side" meaning I started not pretending to male feelings I didn't have and stopped fighting against more feminine feelings that I do have. As a result, I'm more social, I'm healthier and happier and allowing for the fact I look a little weird to people judging me male (and it's hard not to -- I have male characteristics) I'm actually a more well-adjusted person than I was before. I do find that now I have a certain body dysphoria -- I can't stand hair growing out of me except on top of my head -- it offends me. I try to make my skin look and feel smoother than a man's skin so I wear subtle makeup even in "male mode." It's not the same dysphoria my TS friends have -- I don't have any issues with my genitalia or want to see bits of myself harmed.

So, am I really transgender? Am I really somewhere between male and female or do I just have a strong desire for a female appearance? Apparently you're the judge.

[reb.femme]

An articulate reply, so I've just pulled a few bits out for comment.

OK, I'll ignore the implication that we need to satisfy you to get our transgender identity approved and suggest some things you *ought* to be looking for...

Couldn't have put it better myself. I am me and couldn't give a damn that Becky777 doesn't appreciate that we define ourselves.

...Transgender people I know have passed through the world of "manly men" reasonably well. They've learned their duties and responsibilities as men and can doggedly stick to them. (I did.) They are often alienated from manly men and don't know why. They are often creative loners because they have difficulty establishing common ground with other men and they are unwelcome in the world of women...

Strange, but this is me to a T, if you'll pardon the pun. I used to be a definite part of the male grouping (ex-military etc) but this has changed over the years and I can't stand being a part of the stereotypical group anymore.

...So, am I really transgender? Am I really somewhere between male and female or do I just have a strong desire for a female appearance? Apparently you're the judge.

In a nutshell. I/we are the final arbiters of our situation. This place, as the stock line goes is a spectrum of people, with very different and personal drivers.

Becky

[becky77]

Apparently you're the judge.

Not at all, I only know how I feel.
I experienced a lot of what you say and struggled with confusion. I was raised as a boy so did my best to fit that role, I've been through all the same emotions I would imagine or at least similar.
Ten years ago maybe I would be answering differently, I was very much in denial and actually thought TS people to be the real weirdos. Frankly it scared me.

I'm now following my heart because my head has deceived me, I mention honesty not because I'm calling people out, more because I know how I lied to myself but only therapy made me realise that.

I'm reading all this with interest wondering what is the fine line between TG and TS, it seems most of you aren't fighting against it. Sure there is frustration that you just can't be but I see an element of balance that was impossible for me.


Dana44 with the personality shift do you also have mood swings and does this change of thought process cause any issues at work, anyone ever notice your change in attitude?

If I was a bit younger I think I would like to train as a gender therapist, there is still so much unknown and objectively it's fascinating.

Couldn't have put it better myself. I am me and couldn't give a damn that Becky777 doesn't appreciate that we define ourselves.

I do appreciate it? I don't dispute a Transgender identity although I think that just scratches the surface, TG is more an umbrella description it's a little too vague to truly understand what people are experiencing internally.

I just don't think being feminine is any kind of guide.
I'm pretty feminine myself and that in the past has made me question what I'm about.

[GretchenJ]

Dana44 You are very vocal on saying you are Genderfluid. As I understand it that means that your very identity swings from male to female?
But are you being honest with yourself? Is your gender truly fluid or do you just want to dress as a woman sometimes and at other times not?

I'm not saying being Gender fluid is a myth but so far I haven't seen an honest example other than Marcelle. Who now admits to being TS.

I'm genuinely intrigued and wish to learn but I fear a few people just can't be honest with themselves. My main confusion being that each time I ask why someone feels they are in the middle they inevitably talk about being feminine in a way that borders on stereotyping.

What I want to hear about is the internal dialogue, those feelings of being different and how it surfaces in a relationship and social interactions.
How does it come out in friendships etc.The clothes are meaningless when it comes to true Gender identity.
For example if you are closeted but out with friends how does your mixed gender surface, are your friends also mixed?

Hope you don't mind the questions but this is a great learning tool.

Let me try to put into words, how I feel, which answers your very good questions.

Like I posted earlier I consider myself Genderfluid and TG. My belief is that the difference between crossdressers and TG are that for crossdressers the clothes and the presentation are the beginning, middle and the end. The experience is solely external. Where TG comes into play is that the feeling is both internal and external, there are feelings and emotions that accompany the time enfemme time. The clothes are just a tool for the experience, I can feel like Gretchen without a stitch of female clothing on.

The difference between TG and TS, (again my view only) is that TG has no issue with there born with gender, it just varies the percentage they need to present as the other gender. So for me, it's 80/20 male, but any ratio that does not contain zero applies. TS detests there born with gender and can not survive without some degree of transition.

I consider my brain a Venn diagram, the intersection are my base tendencies that define me in both male and female. However, the outer corners are unique to my male and the female role, my therapist thinks that the female side is much larger than I currently thought.

[mechamoose]

'Facsimile'

I know it wasn't your main point.

Nobody here is facsimile, a copy. We are all just who we are.

Some us are blessed and have total support, some are stuck in a DADT situation. NONE of us are a facsimile.

We all have very different living situations, each measured by what we can 'pass' on.

I respect you transitioners more than I can describe. I personally know members here who only wear girl clothing in privacy.

They are still sisters and are worthy of our support and respect.

Great that you are a GM and know you are a girl. Not all of us have evolved that far.

- MM

[Dana44]

Megan, Well I would say that it is two aspects of the same person. Perhaps persona is the wrong word. We had discussions about that in the DES thread. But I must say that strangely I switch like no other and am unique. But the switch is a real male/fem interchange and as a male I do not put on a skirt or anything fem. But when I switch to fem I do feel comfortable as a female out and about and do feel that way. But they are different aspects of me. I see that no one understand it and it is hard to explain. But there are others like me out there and no one like me on this site. But some days I am male and others female. As I have stated it has been that way for my whole time on this earth and it took me half of a lifetime to figure it out. As I had that issue I was never comfortable in my skin. I would love to be one gender and not have that issue. So, I had to beat to my own drum my whole life. Take for example a type A male. He is comfortable in his skin. But my dealing with them I could see far farther than they did. I did not feel like them and knew I was different. And at strange times I would get this switch and felt so much different that I could not express it. I finally figured it out. If it took me half a lifetime it would be really hard to explain.