Why is having a label so important to you?

[heatherdress]

DeeAnn - I disagree. They are clearly alternative, unconnected definitions, not just in the source you suggested as quoted above, but also in others. Wikipedia, for example, begins a transgender discussion with several clearly different alternative definitions:

"Transgender people experience a mismatch between their gender identity or gender expression and their assigned sex. Transgender is also an umbrella term because, in addition to including trans men and trans women whose binary gender identity is the opposite of their assigned sex (and who are sometimes specifically termed transsexual if they desire medical assistance to transition), it may include genderqueer people (whose identities are not exclusively masculine or feminine, but may, for example, be bigender, pangender, genderfluid, or agender). Other definitions include third-gender people as transgender or conceptualize transgender people as a third gender, and infrequently the term is defined very broadly to include cross-dressers."

There is little similarity between the definitions, as you suggest, and more appropriately, they are rather independent and serve different purposes.

Your own definition begins with the supposition that "if you dress in the clothes and trappings of the gender that is opposite to your assigned at birth gender, you are Transgender" (another definition for transgender). You simply dictate all crossdressers are transgender. Maybe too simple and maybe offensive or unacceptable to crossdressers. You also disqualify any consideration of frequency, degree, extent of dressing, intent or purpose of crossdressing. That also seems too simple.

I respect your view but I think it does represent the consistent label of "transgender" pushed on crossdressers.

[Pat]

Heather -- I guess I'm puzzled where you see the distinction. I know you've explained your view twice now, but it's still not sinking in for me. Are you thinking that Genderqueer (for example) people do not fit the definition of mismatch between gender identity and assigned sex? Isn't that mismatch coded into the term they use to self-identify? I'm presuming they match the definition and so don't see it as a problem that the term transgender can be the umbrella that covers all the different non cis-gender behaviors. Even fetishistic crossdressers are adopting a behavior that is a mismatch between their gender identity and assigned sex (to me -- are you seeing it differently?) Other than paid performers or people disguising themselves for some reason I can't think of a case where cis-gendered people would take up other-gender presentation. Which to me argues that Transgender as an umbrella term is pretty valid.

[NicoleScott]

It's not that I want or need a label. Labels are words, words have definitions, and I fit some of those definitions. So some labels apply to me. And everybody.
Yes, we are all unique, but that doesn't mean we don't fit into categories.

SCIU (Soup Cans International Union) has declared that their member soup cans no longer want to be labeled. So there!

[Saikotsu]

I'm of the mind that whether we want them or not, labels will be applied to us. So I embrace the ones I want, and I find them empowering in a way. They help my understanding of myself, and they provide a baseline to explain my experiences to others. Of course, I also reject the labels that I don't want or don't like, because they limit me or make me seek like something I'm not.

[AllieSF]

Maybe too simple and maybe offensive or unacceptable to crossdressers. You also disqualify any consideration of frequency, degree, extent of dressing, intent or purpose of crossdressing. That also seems too simple.

Heather, Your quoted sentence above appears to fit right into some of the questions that Sarah was just asking above. Why would the label "transgender" be offensive to you or other crossdressers? Would you be offended if someone at work called you a genius for solving a difficult problem, even if you knew that you were not? Would you be offended if someone thought that since you crossdress you are also gay? I think some of what Sarah is saying is that maybe we have some other issues that make us adamant that we are not, whatever label someone puts on us correctly or not. Is this "offense" felt because some may have a phobia against what that label represents? These are all questions, not opinions? Why are you and maybe others offended? The simple answer/reply to being mis-labeled is "No, I am not" with a "I am ...." thrown in for further clarity if deemed necessary at that moment of conversation. No offense needs to be taken, unless one feels that the label is demeaning, also meaning that one's opinion of that label and the type of people that it represents is bad.

[heatherdress]

Allie - I have always been comfortable with the gender label I have lived with since early childhood - male. I never had a doubt that I was male based upon my biological hardware. I discovered that I enjoyed crossdressing as a late-bloomer. At no time do I feel my enjoyment of crossdressing changed my gender from male. I do not doubt my gender. I just do not need a new gender label which was rather recently developed (1970s). I do not need transgender for personal identification. I already identify with many labels/groups which satisfy my needs - "male", "father", "husband", "brother", "veteran", and there are more. I don't need another identity label.

I think a gender label is different than an adjective like genius. Psychological labels have much greater importance to people than adjectives or labels which might describe appearance or capabilities. Who we are is usually much more important than what we can do.

Please understand that I am not offended if others want to label me "transgender", simply because I crossdress. I just don't care. I think it might mean much more to the labeler or community that I am placed in than it does to me. At the end of my life, I think the act of crossdressing and label of crossdresser will be somewhere on the list of my many lifetime labels, and pleasures, but it will not be at the top of my list, regardless of how much I enjoyed dressing. My soul and intellect define me, not my clothing and appearance which constantly change.

I admit reservations about being assigned to a transgender community, or any community, just because I crossdress. Most crossdressing behavior is typically alone, private, secret, infrequent, limited and intimate, regardless of adventures we discuss and dream about on this site. Crossdressers want to pass or be unnoticed in public. We are not "out there", representing our community, as some think we do. We blend. Most of us are only known to our wives and partners and most of them, even the accepting ones, do not seek acknowledgement or community involvement. Crossdressing support groups and events typically take place within hotels, private meeting rooms, reserved restaurants. Crossdressers do not even use there own name when dressed, primarily for privacy. Crossdressers on this site do not share what they look like or where they live. Crossdressing is usually private behavior. I have gone to many crossdressing functions and see my same crossdressing friends year after year, but most return to anonymity until the next time we meet. I believe that even though crossdressers want to be accepted and look for support, there is a minimal desired sense of community. Unfortunately, I suspect that the main reason crossdressers are placed within the "umbrella" transgender community label and then reminded that we are members of that community is because there are a lot of crossdressers and inclusion provides increased numbers and strength for the group. But being placed in a community does not mean you feel part of the community.

I do not have any negative feelings about any other individuals or groups that also have the label of transgender, regardless of which definition is used. I do not believe I have phobias, or fear of association, or behavior dislikes, or negative opinions. I believe I try to be openminded and accepting of others. I just do not think it is meaningful for me to be told that I have another label which includes me in a rather diverse transgender "community", because that conveys a community connection and a commonality which I do not feel exists.

Again, I apologize for any indications that I am offended or diminished by a transgender label or that I do not want to be associated with anyone who feels comfortable with a transgender label or if they are a member of a transgender community sub-group listed in a definition. I do realize that many of the labels we discuss are useful and important to many people. I think there is confusion with definitions and then potential improper use associated with labels. But on this site, the only thing that personally bothers me is the use of my transgender label, assigned because I am a crossdresser, to tell me that I must do something or support something that I do not believe in. For example, that I must "come out" to others, to demonstrate greater transgender numbers, regardless of how it might adversely affect my life. I feel the result of pushing others is more derisive than it is unifying. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

[Tina_gm]

Hmmm, lets say you feel hungry for soup. So, you go to the store, and all of a sudden every damn label has disappeared! How do you know which can is soup, and worse yet, you might get tomato when you want chicken noodle.....

At some point, we do need labels for communication and to communicate who we are so people have an understanding. We do not have to put ourselves in a tiny little box that says only.... but if we really completely go without any labels, we will have crippled ourselves in communicating ability.

[carrie001]

@Gendermutt. Very nice!

As time goes on, I'm becoming more and more pleased with my labels. I like them. It took a long time for me to not feel so lost, and internally at least, they help define me. My labels include crossdresser, transgender and/or gender fluid.

[sarahcsc]

Hmm... although these are very good discussion material, they are deviating towards the intellectual rather than the emotional.

Most people recognize the practicalities of labeling and I am not opposed to that. I am simply curious about the feelings which motivates "label seeking".

The soup analogy is great, but humans aren't cans of soup. That is, soups can't think for themselves and won't have an identity crisis if their labels are removed. Humans react very differently.

I gathered from earlier posts that a label gives us a sense of calm, identity, and belonging. Strangely for some, labels can also be misrepresentative and cause a lot of confusion and anxiety. This could be due to denial or simply a poor understanding of the terms available.

I have also mentioned some of the limitations and possible misuse of labels.

I think my search for answers had been fruitful on the whole thanks to contributive members of the forum. It has given me inspiration to ask more questions in the future.

I'll let this thread go on for awhile longer and will ask the moderator to lock it depending on how it evolves in the next day or two.

Love,
S

[Bobbi46]

I agree with carrie 001 a label is very important because it puts one in a "box" in which they are happy and content with, a label which illustrates that person correctly without any grey areas. For me I think gender fluid is the most appropriate because it defines me as someone not searching for total transition but someone content with being within a community such as ourselves and being happy and able to communicate with like minded people without fear of criticism or retribution. And also to be able to search out where I am within this life of mine.
Sometimes getting the labelling wrong is not helpful at all but I think that a correct label for an individual is a very needy thing indeed. It gives a feeling of being somewhere.

[NicoleScott]

Let's not take the soup can analogy too far. The point is that without labels, we know less. We don't even know it's soup, never mind what kind. Lucky for the soup cans that they don't experience confusion, anxiety, and identity crisis. Really, why should people experience these things except for their supersensitivity over differing definitions?
"Proper" use of labels will never be accomplished unless/until we agree on definitions, which of course will never happen.
So not to offend, I'm off to those golden arches for two all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese pickles onions on a sesame seed bun.

[rachelatshop]

Thank you Sarah ,and everyone who responded to this Thread. i have followed this thread for the last couple days and have found it to have been one of the most helpful threads I have read recently
Thanks again to all

[Georgina]

I am not a label seeker but, like others I have labels put on me. I am labelled male, which is useful when I have to choose a toilet and filling in forms. I am also labelled a crossdresser or transvestite which means I can wear female clothes.

[Pat]

But on this site, the only thing that personally bothers me is the use of my transgender label, assigned because I am a crossdresser, to tell me that I must do something or support something that I do not believe in.

So you don't like the label because you feel it attempts to impose an obligation on you?

I often say that these terms we use should be used to describe us not define us. Transgender or Crossdresser should only be used to describe behaviors that we do or do not engage in. They should never be used as a definition where you feel you "should" do something because you are a Crossdresser or because you are Transgender. There are NO duties and responsibilities to being a crossdresser. You have NO moral obligations to the International Transgender Society.

That said, some are pushing the social envelope and they do it to try and make life better for everyone wearing the same label. In that case it's better if more people accept the no-obligation label of transgender because then it makes us look like a larger group to the outside (a whopping 0.03% of the US general population by the latest estimate) and the different groups under the umbrella actually do have common interests in being accepted and being free to move about the country unmolested. It's hard enough to get gender identity protection laws passed for the umbrella group. It would be impossible to pass it for every conceivable sub-group.

Oh dear, how did I get on this soap box? I'll be quiet now.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn - I disagree. They are clearly alternative, unconnected definitions, not just in the source you suggested as quoted above, but also in others. Wikipedia, for example, begins a transgender discussion with several clearly different alternative definitions:

First, be careful about quoting Wikipedia. It's better to quote the actual source.

Second, note this part of the Berkeley definitions: "An umbrella term for transsexuals, cross-dressers (transvestites), transgenderists, gender queers, and people who identify as neither female nor male and/or as neither a man or as a woman."

Where would you get the definition of a transgenderist? From the preceding paragraph. I don't see how you can use a word as a blanket term and not define it. That's how the statements are linked.

Your own definition begins with the supposition that "if you dress in the clothes and trappings of the gender that is opposite to your assigned at birth gender, you are Transgender" (another definition for transgender).

It is not another definition. It is MY personal definition. This thread is about asking what people think and feel. And note My comment about crossing a gender boundary. That is the pure meaning of having the "trans" prefix ahead of the word "gender".

You simply dictate all crossdressers are transgender.

In my opinion, but, there are no golden scrolls that proclaim this as the law of the land. In that sense, dictate is inappropriate.

Maybe too simple and maybe offensive or unacceptable to crossdressers.

I formulate an opinion based on what I believe to be true. If someone thinks that I am offensive or whatever, that is their opinion. But, getting back to the statement, you cannot challenge the fact that a Crossdresser does cross a gender boundary.

You also disqualify any consideration of frequency, degree, extent of dressing, intent or purpose of crossdressing. That also seems too simple.

Simplicity is the goal. If it becomes too complicated, people begin to think that it is a smorgasbord and that they can pick and choose what they like. Another way to say it is that it reduces the degree of variability.

One way of explaining what I said is this: If person A robs a bank and person B robs 20 banks, are they not both bank robbers?

I respect your view but I think it does represent the consistent label of "transgender" pushed on crossdressers.

I would wonder if there isn't a strong fear among Crossdressers because they really worry about what may happen to them; that they may have struck a chord the ultimately leads to transitioning. There are MANY threads here about people wondering where will it all end. In that context, it makes sense that folks would want to avoid anything with the hint of going beyond Crossdressing.

Further, where do Transsexuals come from? Many started as Crossdressers.

DeeAnn

[heatherdress]

DeeAnn - We do have different points of view and I respect yours, as I have said. But I do take exception to the "strong fear" implication of ultimately transitioning that you imply crossdressers really worry about. Although there are some who crossdress who have doubts and fears and worries about where their journey may take them, I don't, and many other crossdressers don't. I don't only speak from my own perspective but from association and friendships with other crossdressers. We are satisfied simply wearing panties or a dress and have little desire to do anything beyond that. But your suggestion that we must be disingenuous is exactly the type of dismissive attitude frequently shown when crossdressers express a different opinion. There is almost no acceptance that our position is OK. Ours must be wrong. It is really offensive, and perhaps arrogant, DeeAnn, to counter an opinion that is different than yours by diminishing it as invalid suggesting that fear prevents honesty.

Jeannie - I believe labels both describe and define. If you accept and use the description, you are defining yourself. Also, in many threads, we are definitely pushed to support initiatives and political positions because we have to as part of the umbrella, even if we personally disagree. It is terrific that there is continuing progress for many in the LGBT spectrum. It is good for LGBT initiatives that inclusion of crossdressers swells the numbers. But unfortunately, most of that energy, progress and effort provides little benefit for crossdressers. You can change marriage and employment laws to protect those who are gay, or bisexual or transsexual, but there is little you can do for the majority of crossdressers who dress in private. Most crossdressers are really not worried about molestation. Most crossdressers are not worried about police arrest. Most crossdressers have not had problems using bathrooms. What crossdressers typically want is simple acceptance by their spouses, girlfriends and maybe neighbors, and that cannot be achieved by legislation or political promises or LGBT initiatives. If anything, a transgender label in addition to a crossdresser label might promote even more non-acceptance in relationships. I am glad of progress that has been made recently by the courage of Caitlyn Jenner and others, but that progress has minimal carryover to crossdressers. I just do not see the benefits and common interests that you do for crossdresser inclusion in the umbrella transgender community. Once again, I am not opposed to being called transgender - but I do not see transgender label affecting my life in any meaningful way.

[Sky]

please don't start by saying "I don't label myself and I don't believe in labelling". In which case, you belong to the intellectual group and you can start a thread independent of this.

Well, I don't label mys... sorry. But that's exactly how I feel. And no, I don't belong to any intellectual group. And there are already lots of threads about this, no need for more.

[NicoleScott]

DeeAnn, you said many transsexuals started out as crossdressers? A TS is a woman in a man's body. A crossdresser is a man who wears women's clothing (I'm simplifying and ignoring the FtM flip side). At what point did the man become a woman? Isn't it more accurate to say that many TS misidentified themselves as CDers?

Heather, I agree with your first paragraph reply to DeeAnn. Many of us CDers are secure with what we are, and don't live in confusion or fear over where we might be headed. For some of us, it's about the clothes.

Finally, I'm a crossdresser. Whether or not others consider me TG doesn't bother me at all.

[Lorileah]

I'll let this thread go on for awhile longer and will ask the moderator to lock it depending on how it evolves in the next day or two.

Love,
S

While you can ask a thread to be closed, I don't understand what you are seeking and why you seem to be annoyed that people are replying. Are you looking for a specific answer? It is hard for many people to separate emotional ideas from logical. I would say the answer as far as emotion goes would be "I need a label to know WHO I am and where I fit." Simple, no?

This discussion seems to be civil and well attended, why would you close it? If it has run its course for what you were seeking, you could stop reading it

[sarahcsc]

Hi Lorileah,

Sarah is "annoyed", "insulting", "sarcastic", "projecting", "doing therapy..." etc. Strangely, nobody said Sarah is curious.

There are only so much of these I want to read before I feel like closing the thread myself.

I was reminded of a good friend of mine at work who said to me, "Sarah, don't bother explaining yourself, the people who know you don't care, and the people who don't know you wouldn't believe you anyways." I rest my case.

I want to close the thread to protect my reputation but also because I feel responsible for how the thread evolves since I was the one who started it. I had a specific question I wanted answers about, and I will terminate the thread when my question is answered. Closing the thread will keep it focused before it evolves into another intellectual debate which there is already no shortage of.

If anybody would like to continue this discussion, they could start a thread of their own. Simple, no?

It is irresponsible to start a thread on a sensitive topic and let it run without adequate supervision, this is how misunderstandings and factions are created.

Having said that, I will request for this thread to be locked.

Thank you everybody.

Love,
S

[NicoleScott]

".....without adequate supervision..."
Ouch. Let's hope the mod who reads that is having a good day.

[Tina_gm]

In before the lock- It was a label which pointed me to this site. I knew what to look for to seek those like myself.

[Stephanie47]

A comment I made on this thread was deemed to be inappropriate because, in part, it may have gone into the realm of intellectual debate. Going back to square #1 Sarah has queried:

"I want to know what motivates a person to seek a label. What are the feelings associated with being labelled? What is there to gain? What is the alternative to labelling (sic)?"

I can only answer for myself. Since this is a site for a large spectrum of men who wear women's clothing, perhaps I will only comment on the clothing issue, and, avoid delving into my heritage as a white, German-Hungarian, Presbyterian, disabled army combat veteran, retired college educated professional, married....

Yes, when I was looking for some on line sites when I finally got a home computer I had to use a term that closely associate me to something on the net. Hence, I did use transvestite (child of the 1950's and 1960's here) and cross dresser. Transgender to me was a term in my mind and most others I associated with as persons trapped in the wrong physical body.

Nobody on this site really cares about all those other descriptive terms. So, for purposes of this site call me what I am....a cross dresser. A cross dresser who has no sexual identity issues.

Sarah asks "What's the alternative to labeling?

I shy away from using a single word to explain who or what I am. So, Sarah has asked and I will reply. I prefer to use a more descriptive phrase: "I am a man who experiences comfort and serenity wearing women's clothing." For this site "cross dresser" is fine. For the world, not so much.

[Lorileah]

".....without adequate supervision..."
Ouch. Let's hope the mod who reads that is having a good day.

I am thank you. Confused but having a good day. This was one of the most civil label threads we have had.

And thus.... closed