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Thread: Why is having a label so important to you?

  1. #1
    If only you could see me sarahcsc's Avatar
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    Why is having a label so important to you?

    There has been countless threads debating the meaning/definition of terms including "crossdresser", "transgender", "transsexual", "woman", "man", etc.

    After awhile, the debates become somewhat predictable. Those who don't know could look up the forum although there's much to wade through. Basically, most people would either agree to disagree or the moderator shuts down the thread.

    But I was wondering, just purely out of curiosity, why is a label so important to you?

    I want to know what motivates a person to seek a label. What are the feelings associated with being labelled? What is there to gain? What is the alternative to labelling?

    I am not judging anybody and not ashamed to admit that I am not a fan of labelling. I have my reasons. But I'm very curious to know the other side of the story.

    WARNING: In reality, labelling to some extent is inevitable so please don't start by saying "I don't label myself and I don't believe in labelling". In which case, you belong to the intellectual group and you can start a thread independent of this.

    WARNING: I do not wish to start yet another intellectual debate about the pros and cons of labelling, so please avoid discussing reasons why you think labelling should or should not happen.

    HINT: Be as broad and expansive as you can. There are after all, so many labels in this world which can be be exemplified.

    I would love to hear everybody's opinion on this.

    Love,
    S
    "The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me" - Ayn Rand

  2. #2
    its important mykell's Avatar
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    <form>
    <label for="male">Male</label>
    <input type="radio" name="gender" id="male" value="male"><br>
    <label for="female">Female</label>
    <input type="radio" name="gender" id="female" value="female"><br>
    <label for="other">Other</label>
    <input type="radio" name="gender" id="other" value="other"><br><br>
    <input type="submit" value="Submit">
    </form>

    normally we dont get to chose "other" when asked about gender, the other label describes "me"
    all of the threads you mention do become predictable as do many other topics, most responses are made with nothing but conjecture or supposition.....
    the results speak for themselves.....


    ill also second what katey said....except that toe thingy, i dont even know what that means....
    Last edited by mykell; 02-12-2016 at 07:18 PM.
    ....Mykell
    i dressed like a girl and i liked it! crossdressing...theirs an app for that

  3. #3
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    Interesting point Sarah (but lots of warnings... ) - let's see if I can answer without treading on a toe-popper...

    A label for me is really about a category of people or a grouping - and therefore it's not an end in itself; it's like a road sign for kindred spirits - it's something that just allows you to feel or affirms that you are, part of a bigger commonality...

    It allows you to feel that you are not alone with what you experience individually - particularly if that's a burden or a fear, and particularly for folk that come across us for the first time and can finally feel that they have someone to share it with... Knowing that you can share it with someone who understands because they feel the same way; have the same motivations; experience the same needs and pressures - is a lot less scary than sharing it with someone who may be hostile, or may even tell you that you're not what you feel you are...

    The label itself is not important to me - the idea that I can share my feelings with people that are more likely to understand and that there are more people like me, is reassuring... It probably makes me a little tribal, but that's not unusual for humans...

    Katey x
    "Put some lipstick on - Perfume your neck and slip your high heels on
    Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear"
    Stefani Germanotta

  4. #4
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    I like labels because they gives me a starting point when trying to understand where someone is coming from when in discussion oral or written. I am also not ashamed by labels even if mislabeled. A simple, "No, I am not" easily clears up that erroneous assumption. I think that may be a sign of some latent homophobia, as in, they would think that someone may think lesser of them and by extension gays are lesser people on the totem pole. On a site like this it helps to have some common base definitions and labels so that people can hopefully keep a specific topic going and not get sidelined and then closed over label wars. I generally add a brief description of one of the most contentious labels (TG) as being the umbrella term. When I am talking to complete strangers who are trying to understand what I and others like me are, I may use TG only because I believe that being the umbrella term and sounding better and a bit more professional/adult that using crossdresser. If necessary for clarity, I may add that I do "this" part time versus someone full time who usually is TS. Since we continually argue over terminology here, how can we ever expect the less in tune general public to ever really understand if everyone uses something different for basically the same thing. Also, sometimes the added detail of whether someone is a "tweener or not might be easily described as beyond a CD and not quite a TS, or as some of my friends describe me, CD+++!!

  5. #5
    My name is Carol Julogden's Avatar
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    Labels can be an aid to communication if they are accurate, but the flip side is true in that if they are misapplied, they can lead to confusion and misinformation. That said, I agree with what AllieSF said about labels.
    My name is Carol.

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    I label myself because I want people to know certain basic things about who I am without having to spell them out, or have them find out in some roundabout way. It also gets across the point that I know what I'm doing, and I am proud of what I do. Whether someone agrees with my label, or not. I'm letting them know what I think. I believe in an individual's right to define themselves, rather than granting that power to, well, people who aren't you. That seems silly.

  7. #7
    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    I think I like wearing women's things. But then, maybe I don't. I'm not sure why I even think about that? Oh never mind!

    I've been considering having sex with other people. Should I try it with men or women first? I guess that's not really important, tho.

    So, what should I do about everything?

    (Labels r simply part of communication.)
    Last edited by docrobbysherry; 02-13-2016 at 02:28 AM.
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  8. #8
    Gold Member bridget thronton's Avatar
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    Labeling is not important to me - I am happy to identify as trans or gender fluid because it binds me to a larger community of like individuals with the support that implies

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    Sarah,
    I think labels are important if you want to make some sense of the TG spectrum and where you are on it, it also then helps to explain it to other people.

    To finally come out to your partner is scary enough for both of you but without an explanation and sensible labels it's much harder to move on. Just shrugging your shoulders and saying I don't understand isn't fair to your partner. This also applies to other people, recent posts have touched on the subject of talking to coworkers or friends, you can't do that unless you have a label to describe yourself , otherwise what is the point.

    Lemon M.,
    You raise a good point, if you don't label yourself, other people may do it for you and get it completely wrong.

    I think it does matter because there is still a great deal of misunderstanding of the whole CDing scene we will constantly need to correct that if we are to be accepted as more than guys wearing a badly fitting dress with appalling makeup and staggering about in heels !
    Last edited by Teresa; 02-13-2016 at 04:15 AM.

  10. #10
    New Member Sin's Avatar
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    I don't know how important it is to me.
    Sometimes I feel like its not important and sometimes it feels like very important.
    I label myself as a bi'Queen.
    I often feel myself so strongly as a woman that I don't even want to be called anything man(whatever).
    Many and most day's now (living in rough community) I hide my female side and like my male side mostly to show.
    It is not entirely hidden and most know, but very few are open for this here and (fist/law) is very often on top of anything sensible despite efforts of local law's to not make it so.
    I like to be able to be man sometimes and a woman sometimes.
    My bisexuality make me treat women as I like men to treat me. (I don't know if it makes sense).
    I also love being dressed as a man at a party with my dress and accessories in a bag, then go to the bathroom and make a transformation to make a new entrance as "me" who they just didn't notice before.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Nikkilovesdresses's Avatar
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    i-sometimes-like-to-dress-up-in-ladies-clothing-but-mostly-wear-drab-because-i-fear-public-humiliation dot com isn't a very snappy domain name. People like short succinct handles on things. Except bureaucrats- they like long, polysyllabic names for things because they think it makes them sound clever.

    Of course inevitably some bureaucrats are LGBT, hence the proliferation of lengthy acronyms and ever more specific labels for all possible permutations of gender expression everywhere, or APPOGEE.
    I used to have a short attention spa

  12. #12
    Oh to be an English Rose Jane G's Avatar
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    Labels are just tools we use when we communicate. Personalty I think they work best for things that don't change much, like a Heinz 57 baked beans recipe. I change a little bit every second of my life.

  13. #13
    If only you could see me sarahcsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katey888 View Post
    Interesting point Sarah (but lots of warnings... ) - let's see if I can answer without treading on a toe-popper...

    It allows you to feel that you are not alone with what you experience individually - particularly if that's a burden or a fear, and particularly for folk that come across us for the first time and can finally feel that they have someone to share it with...
    Sorry about the many warnings, Katey. In essence, I'm trying to moderate the thread right from the beginning by making the thread as focussed as possible. It doesn't always work but one can try.

    I agree with you that labelling can help ease the loneliness especially if being labelled translates into a sense of belonging to a group.

    While this is the case for some, it is also interesting to observe others who are abhorrent of being labelled because they don't feel represented by the group they supposedly belong to. Perhaps they don't hate "labelling" in itself, but they just don't wish to be labelled with the labels we have at present. I'm reminded of people who don't align themselves with any political party or ideologies because of the same reason.

    A "perfect" representation is probably a fantasy and most people would be satisfied with a "good enough" representation. Maybe the fact that some people are so particular about their label probably reflects how much they cherish their sense of identity. For example, Zooey said "Since going full-time, it hurts more when people misgender me; not because I'm more sensitive, but because I finally have an identity I care about."

    To me, this is a very moving and logical statement, but at the same time, it leads me to wonder why or if some one would care less.

    lemon_meringue_tie said "I believe in an individual's right to define themselves, rather than granting that power to, well, people who aren't you. That seems silly." while Donna Indelco said "A label isn't important to me. I am who I am and let others categorize me if they feel the need to." Very contrasting statements in this thread itself.

    I wonder if it has something to do with how secure one feels about their own sense of identity. It stands to reason that one would be defensive if they felt threatened by a label. Therefore, one would care less about being misrepresented if they are secure enough in themselves. Right?

    Well... not really. I don't know because this usually leads to a discussion about the difference between TS and CDs, whereby the former somehow "cares a great deal more about their gender identity" compared to the latter group. Is this a brain peculiarity perhaps? Or a strange psychological disposition? The reasons are varied and nobody knows for sure.

    It is fascinating to note that crossdressers are not usually up in arms if they are mislabeled "woman" or "trans".

    What are your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by AllieSF View Post
    I like labels because they gives me a starting point when trying to understand where someone is coming from when in discussion oral or written... On a site like this it helps to have some common base definitions and labels so that people can hopefully keep a specific topic going and not get sidelined and then closed over label wars.
    Allie made another valid point about labels, in that it helps reduce confusion and organize the forum. This leads me to ask two questions, "what is wrong with being confused?" and "are we any less confused now with all these terms and labels?"

    One could argue that too much confusion leads to anxiety and distress, but we also need to consider the harm of offering "quick answers". A good therapist would contain a patient's confusion and anxiety while at the same time helping them explore their own gender identity in a graduated and unbiased fashion. The cure to confusion and anxiety is not to offer up quick answers, but to normalise the situation so they don't feel at sea.

    I dare to say that we are all at sea when it comes to gender identity, but some are happily rolling with the confusion while others are panicking. Curious isn't it?

    I also noticed a trend with people who are initially accepting of a label, only to reject it later upon further self-discovery. Sooner of later, the confusion returns. In which case, some adopt a new label, but others decide to create their own label for themselves. I identify with the latter group. Mickitv said "Not to sound like Popeye but "I am what I am.""

    Are we any less confused? Yes, at least for a while.

    What are your thoughts?




    Quote Originally Posted by Teresa View Post
    Sarah,
    I think labels are important if you want to make some sense of the TG spectrum and where you are on it, it also then helps to explain it to other people.

    To finally come out to your partner is scary enough for both of you but without an explanation and sensible labels it's much harder to move on. Just shrugging your shoulders and saying I don't understand isn't fair to your partner. This also applies to other people, recent posts have touched on the subject of talking to coworkers or friends, you can't do that unless you have a label to describe yourself , otherwise what is the point.
    Another great point raised by Teresa, that labels are important in communicating to others. I totally agree with you on this. However, I can think of two more questions, that is "why is it unfair to tell your partner that you don't understand?", and "is understanding more important than acceptance?"

    We often feel the need to "do or say something" when confronting our partners but most people fudge it, at least, the first several times. The fact that there is a whole FAQ section in this forum dedicated to people who wants to come out to their partners shows how commonly difficult this process could be. Unless you know for a fact that your gender identity is stable, you can justify the use of a label (eg. I am a man/woman). But how could you justify the use of labels (which are arbitrary to begin with) to describe your gender identity which is still subject to change upon further exploration.

    You may tell your partner you are a "man" today, and a "crossdresser" tomorrow, and a "transgender" next week, and a "transsexual" next month, and a "woman" next year. Is this fairer than just saying "Sorry honey, I can't be sure of who I am today nor tomorrow. All I can say is that I love you and I wish to have you with me on this journey of self-discovery"?

    Don't we, at least, owe our partners the truth so they could decide for themselves?

    Understandably, your partner would be anxious when faced with so many uncertainties, in which case, I think it is more important that we do not perpetuate that anxiety by giving them false or incomplete explanations. Some couples agree that things get better with time after an initial crisis, and these are generally couples who are utterly honest with each other right from the start. However, some couples just become increasingly paranoid and divided over time. Curious isn't it?

    Also, while it is important we help our partners understand, I think we often overestimate the effect understanding has on acceptance.

    In my experience, understanding is not synonymous with acceptance.

    For example, I don't understand Einstein's theory of relativity, but I accept that gravity is keeping my feet on the ground. Similarly, I can understand why a sex offender would commit rape due to his traumatic upbringing but I cannot accept his actions.

    Knowing this, I don't bother myself too much with other's understanding on this matter because I know acceptance takes time and it will happen if it is meant to happen, regardless of their understanding.

    In worse cases, there could be a paradoxical increase in confusion the more one tries to understand something as complexed as gender identity.

    What are your thoughts?
    Last edited by sarahcsc; 02-13-2016 at 08:38 AM.
    "The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me" - Ayn Rand

  14. #14
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    Oh Gawd! Three more deep and penetrating questions Sarah... and only on my first coffee on a Saturday....

    Actually - I admit to pondering your question having a leisurely shower, slathered in soap lather this morning... (yes, that was gratuitous for all our gay and bi members... )

    Allie makes a good point about it being a starting point, not just for us but potentially others - I think this is important too, and why an umbrella term is useful to provide a more cumulative grouping for the benefit of educating others. You make a good point about feeling secure in one's own identity - I don't spend all day thinking I'm TG - no more than I keep refreshing that I'm a woodworker, or an MBA or a yachtmaster or whatever... but in a relevant situation, when I'm out dressed, if someone asks it gives me a reference point, but if they mislabelled me as TS, like Allie, I'd just have to modify that to part-time. Perhaps the one benefit of being part-time is that we aren't overly sensitive about the mislabelling because - like even a broken clock is accurate twice a day - the label is likely to be close enough.

    For the muggles, it's the broad groupings that will help education and promote understanding - your assertion that understanding does not always equate to acceptance is true, but I think it does promote tolerance and I think that just having universal tolerance would be a great step forward for many of us.

    Going back to the shower moment (cue Serge Gainsbourg & Jane Birkin's "Je t'aime"... ) what I find curious is how often folk here insist on asserting what they're not, as if by association with those of us that feel that we are, some of our individual aspects might be contagious... and I mean when they're not even asked or identified - as if there's a defensiveness or an insecurity about their own feelings. I've said before that other people, agencies, organisations etc. will ultimately label us objectively regardless of our own subjective preferences - we might as well "own it" first then at least we have a chance of directing the understanding...

    Time for that second coffee now...

    Katey x
    "Put some lipstick on - Perfume your neck and slip your high heels on
    Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear"
    Stefani Germanotta

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    Sarah - Your topic offers an interesting discussion. My simple response to your question is that labels are not important to me. I also dislike being labeled by others and then told I need to respond a certain way because of the label, which occurs frequently in threads.


    I do understand that psychological labeling is a common tool to describe, study and understand human behavior.

    http://counsellingresource.com/featu...fore-applying/

    Many members of our forum continually share their personal experiences and opinions and use their understanding of labels to try to explain or identify behavior. Sometimes the use of labels seems accurate and appropriate, sometimes not. Labels certainly have much greater importance to some than to others, probably due to personalities, needs, maturity, knowledge and awareness.
    Last edited by heatherdress; 02-15-2016 at 10:22 AM.

  16. #16
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    Labeling myself accurately is a sign that I truly understand who I am. Because this label doesn't appear on a name tag or in some other outward manner, I am able to use it to accurately describe myself to others who might care to know more about me than my outward appearance conveys.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
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  17. #17
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    For one thing, a label lets you know which section of this forum you belong in.

    I label myself (straight MTF Crossdresser) because that helps others on the forum understand where I'm coming from when I post.

  18. #18
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    I don't see it as a label more a description, and we need descriptions for language.
    I don't go around telling people I am TS or even a woman, I just am.
    But here I might say it to instantly explain an idea of where I'm coming from in the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarahcsc View Post
    Well... not really. I don't know because this usually leads to a discussion about the difference between TS and CDs, whereby the former somehow "cares a great deal more about their gender identity" compared to the latter group. Is this a brain peculiarity perhaps? Or a strange psychological disposition? The reasons are varied and nobody knows for sure.

    It is fascinating to note that crossdressers are not usually up in arms if they are mislabeled "woman" or "trans".
    The inbetweeners are the most under represented and not easily defined, if you are relatively fluid in nature then a static label is no use.

    The cross dresser typically has no identity issues so they don't really need to look too deep into any if this, they do what they do and don't really have to apologize for it.

    However a TS transitioner has usually gone through hell and fire to reveal to the world their identity, when you have risked so much who wouldn't be protective of their hard fought status?
    We have TS on here that have come out, spent most of their money, lost homes, lost family, lost jobs, been through painful operations some that have gone wrong.
    All to be authentic.
    Do you think if after all that it's not surprising if they are a little prickly to be then labeled as a man in a dress? I think saying brain peculiarly is a bit unfair of you.

    Most often those that have an issue with labels do seem to be the same people that are unsure of where they fit, is it a fear of misrepresentation or more like they just can't define themselves so why should anyone else try to stick them in a category?

    I hate the label TS, I'm certainly not brandishing it about however it is a medical description of what I'm about. Without that label/description I would struggle to get the appropriate treatment.
    It is what it is but being TS doesn't define me as a person but it does easily convey part of what makes me tick.

    Most of these labels are inadequate and too vague.

    I do disagree that CDers are less bothered, I've seen a lot of discussions here where CDers are very vocal about distancing themselves from TS or even the TG label because they don't want to be connected to the likes of Caitlyn, they don't want wives to worry if they will transition.
    So for them saying they are Just a Crossdresser establishes a much needed different stand point.
    Is there anything wrong with that?

  19. #19
    Member adrienner99's Avatar
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    Labeling is just one step toward understanding our own identity. For me, and I think for most of us, crossdressing creates confusion. I know I am male, but some part of me loves female clothes and characteristics. How can that be? Most men do not even get near this conundrum. Why us? And where are we on that thing known as the TS (or TV) Spectrum? How "female" are we????....It's just part of the search to answer The Big Why---why on earth do men want to wear women's clothes, and in some cases actually become women through SRS????

  20. #20
    Aspiring Member Lacy PJs's Avatar
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    The whole business of labels doesn't come from how we label ourselves but how others label us. I know that some will say, "Let others think as they may...." and this may go so far. But as still others have said, the idea of a label is a starting point and hopefully not the end of the discussion. It is what others think of the labels that are given that kind of makes it important to "get it right."

    Most labels are relative and not absolute. I am tall... but compared to someone who is 6'8", I am not so tall. But initially, it gives people the idea that I am at a certain height range. It's the same with the labels used to describe/categorize crossdressers. To say that one is a fulltime crossdresser (MtoF here) would give one the general impression that they won't find that person in a three-piece business suit typically worn by businessmen. But that same label doesn't fully define someone either; it doesn't tell if they are female impersonators, have gone through transition, etc.

    So it is important to know what the label's meaning & understanding is so that one can move forward from that point in defining oneself to another.

    Lacy PJs

  21. #21
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    People that want specific labels are just trying to sub-divide communities.
    Everybody wants to be unique, it is the middle school mentality.

    In the real world, no one cares what specific label someone wants to go by.
    It takes a true Erin to be a pain in the assatar.

  22. #22
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    Moderator note

    Just a reminder of the OP's question and subsequent criteria for contributing to this thread:

    QUESTIONS:
    why is a label so important to you?
    I want to know what motivates a person to seek a label. What are the feelings associated with being labelled? What is there to gain? What is the alternative to labelling?
    The OP has made it clear she is not a supporter of labelling and doesn't seek additional negative reasons - her further criteria stresses this:
    WARNING: In reality, labelling to some extent is inevitable so please don't start by saying "I don't label myself and I don't believe in labelling". In which case, you belong to the intellectual group and you can start a thread independent of this.

    WARNING: I do not wish to start yet another intellectual debate about the pros and cons of labelling, so please avoid discussing reasons why you think labelling should or should not happen.
    This was quite clear - I'm stressing it again and now culling negative comments so that everyone can just see the positive ones so that we can keep the thread open... Subsequent posters, PLEASE try to grasp this...

    Katey
    Moderator

  23. #23
    its important mykell's Avatar
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    sorry sarah i needed 3 cups of coffee, eggs on a rack, and lunch to tackle your added thoughts.....

    i still find my original post with the radio button example my most wanted choice, "other" would make it so much easier.....



    It is fascinating to note that crossdressers are not usually up in arms if they are mislabeled "woman" or "trans".

    What are your thoughts?


    my thoughts on this is that some here fear guilt by association, many here fear the "trans" part of the community, others fear the "fetish" part of the community, while others fear the "bi" or "homo" aspect of the community, hence all the categorized familiar threads:
    “crossdressers who arent gay if you want a man while dressed”, “crossdressers that just like the clothes that like themselves”, “crossdressers that are just a regular crossdresser”, "crossdressers who dont have a clue how to crossdress", "crossdressers that hate caitlyn jenner", "crossdressers that hate transgender", and my made up one "crossdressers that are too crossdressy",
    so sub labels of crossdressing...
    these end by becoming too personal and most times off topic in dissected debates. most times disregarding the original question…just happened here today and you were quite specific about what you were looking for and articulate it in a concise manner….


    I also noticed a trend with people who are initially accepting of a label, only to reject it later upon further self-discovery. Sooner of later, the confusion returns. In which case, some adopt a new label, but others decide to create their own label for themselves. I identify with the latter group. Mickitv said "Not to sound like Popeye but "I am what I am.""

    Are we any less confused? Yes, at least for a while.

    What are your thoughts?


    when i first came here i found some terms confusing, as i read and learned more i found i can fit into other terms as well, what i do have trouble with is comments made that may be factual for some made to be the rule and not the exception, made me feel in denial about some aspects of myself when i had initially felt good about that particular place i felt i was in....


    The fact that there is a whole FAQ section in this forum dedicated to people who wants to come out to their partners shows how commonly difficult this process could be.

    this was the hardest decision that i could ever make, fearing rejection from the person you care the most for in your life....being mocked and ridiculed by your peers and then labeled , liar, coward, ect. if you don't do it….not the labels or support I sought….

    You may tell your partner you are a "man" today, and a "crossdresser" tomorrow, and a "transgender" next week, and a "transsexual" next month, and a "woman" next year. Is this fairer than just saying "Sorry honey, I can't be sure of who I am today nor tomorrow. All I can say is that I love you and I wish to have you with me on this journey of self-discovery"?

    our most heartfelt discussion to date was this very topic, and the use of labels as a "tool" like some one said made it easier to ease her fear of where this will go and my honesty of saying i cant promise anything and reassure her of where i thought it was for the now, that and how i will always love her and never meant her any of the turmoil associated with who i was and the journey….have seen many here proclaim one thing two short years ago and they hang in different forum now so how honest were they with they're wife's in reality....not criticizing that just saying you never know how deep the hole goes, theirs that rabbit again....


    ive noticed that some of the words you used here today were dissected, apparently they were insulting to someone and not your intention im sure, i find it extremely hard to compose my thoughts when i post or start a thread, the fear of inadvertently insulting or confusing what im trying to convey.....sometimes i will leave the page and hit the back button.....
    Last edited by mykell; 02-13-2016 at 03:11 PM. Reason: dang quotes
    ....Mykell
    i dressed like a girl and i liked it! crossdressing...theirs an app for that

  24. #24
    Transgender Person Pat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
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    Boston Area
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    4,099
    Oh boy, a chance to be pedantic again...

    Words are important because without them we can't discuss anything. You can't talk about rocks if there's no word for rock.

    The Williams Institute had a cute line in their report that was trying to assess how many TG people there are. It read, "It has been said that a minority doesn't count until it has been counted." To be counted we must have a word for the thing we're counting so we can differentiate it from all the other things in the world.

    I don't like casting the discussion in terms of "labels" because when you do that, you're imposing a specific use model on a word. Transgender, for example, should just be an adjective. It *can* be used as a label, but that is not its only function. But when labels are being used as labels, there needs to be an appropriate label for everyone in the target audience. The practical issue (again, only speaking for myself) is that when I'm filling out a form -- as mentioned above -- and they give me two radio buttons, one Male, one Female and one or the other MUST be checked I feel a huge amount of discomfort. If I could choose "other" or if I could just not choose I'd feel fine. I also run into this a lot in cases where a form demands I select a "title" or "salutation" from a list of Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms or Dr. I'm none of those things but the form requires me to choose one. In this case people actually are using these words as labels and my discomfort comes from their implied requirement that I participate in their world view just so I can renew my driver's license or some other simple human transaction.

    So that's why and when "labels" are important to me.

  25. #25
    Woman first, Trans second
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    877
    Quote Originally Posted by sarahcsc View Post
    A "perfect" representation is probably a fantasy and most people would be satisfied with a "good enough" representation. Maybe the fact that some people are so particular about their label probably reflects how much they cherish their sense of identity. For example, Zooey said "Since going full-time, it hurts more when people misgender me; not because I'm more sensitive, but because I finally have an identity I care about."

    To me, this is a very moving and logical statement, but at the same time, it leads me to wonder why or if some one would care less.
    Since I'm the one that said it... I was never invested in my male persona. Before I accepted myself for who/what I was, I literally could not have cared less what people thought of me. Some people would say that was "cool", but "cool" had nothing to do with it. I didn't care about what they thought because I didn't really care about that persona. I didn't take care of myself. I didn't put any effort into anything but work and trying to be funny so I didn't have to talk about anything really important.

    I care about my identity now because the one I'm showing the world is the real one - not the woefully deficient and wafer-thin shell I'd been parading around for decades. When people disrespected me before, or tried to hurt me, it rarely hurt me - it just hit the shell. I'm on the surface now, and it hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarahcsc View Post
    It is fascinating to note that crossdressers are not usually up in arms if they are mislabeled "woman" or "trans".
    This fascinates me too.

    From what i've seen, crossdressers LOVE it when they're labeled women in public. I've read plenty of posts here from folks who claim to identify as in-between/non-binary who seem to love it too. To me, if your identity is really such a distinctly different thing, I don't see why somebody in public mislabeling you a "woman" should be any less infuriating than being labeled a "man" or "TS" or anything else that's inaccurate. My bi friends bristle equally at being called straight or gay - they don't say "well, sometimes I'm straight and sometimes I'm gay". They say, "Actually, I'm bi."

    I'm not trying to be difficult, and I respect what you folks tell me, but I guess I really don't get it.
    Coming out is like discovering that you've been drowning your whole life after actually breathing air for the first time.

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