The Public ?????????

[deebra]

Where/Why does the public automatically think a man that dresses in female clothing to what ever degree is GAY? We all know women have sex with men and they wear female clothes. If a man wears female clothing does he have to have sex with men? Does wearing male or female clothing dictate what sex you'll be having sex with? Why/What should our choice of liking female clothes better than male clothes have to do with what gender you have sex with? In Other Words clothing has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Why can't they smarten up and understand not all men are in the same bucket, some prefer the smarter, more form fitting, colorful and softer choices women have and men don't, and they much prefer presenting as a woman and find it more attractive than as a man. The public knows and accepts women wear both male and female clothes, it's what they choose for either style or comfort, why can't the public apply the same standard for men without assuming they are gay? Most today are knowledgeable in high teck. phones, computers, GPS's; why are they so slow to understand the clothing/sex issue? Or am I looking at it through CD glasses?

[AnnieMac]

I agree with you hun, but I think you are looking at it slightly through CD glasses. Because there still is an element of sexuality in male CD, some more than others, and non existent in a few as well. I just have to be honest with myself and say, yeah as much as I really enjoy the colors, fabrics, look, feel, and how I feel and look in them, and that's ALL, I have to remember I started dressing when I was about 7 or 8 or so in my sisters clothes, as just fun play-pretend, (like many kids do, and I also dressed up like army-guys, firefighters, boy stuff too), but there was something more about the female nature of these clothes, and it progressed into a sexual fetish when I was around 15. I'll bet that's true for many of us. Presently, I really just enjoy the entire process of transitioning into a woman, and seeing myself that way, and not for the fetish of it anymore (although maybe that's a fetish in and of itself now), although I would be lying to y'all if I didn't say I still get a slight erotic "tinge" when I see myself dressed. I think that's why we are not viewed as, "hey cool, look at the cute outfit that guy has on". There is not much sexually related when women wear mens clothes ( I 'm pretty sure) but there still is something sexually related to men wearing women's clothes, at least that's the way the public sees it. When I think about being out for real in public more, and the very few times i walked around dressed in pretty much deserted areas, I did get some real excitement out of it, although not fetish like in anyway, but it must be sexually related.
I think that since Gay is usually incorrectly associated with CD, that's just how "normal" folks wrap their head around it (mostly before any Jenner takes on it). However, I must admit I have asked the same question myself here, why when CDs go out it is often mentioned here about going out to a gay bars or perhaps even a drag show, when the two seem so totally unrelated to just plain old vanilla cross dressing, at least in my own head.I know they are seen as "safe areas" but really the last place I want to go dressed is a "gay bar with a drag show. I would prefer malls, restaurants, etc (that's of course admittedly when I get braver enough to do it)
I'm sorry I'm not clearer but I have been running this idea through my mind lately and I do get a little bit emotional about it since it's a big part of me, but I think it is an important thing to know about ourselves. We as CDs have to admit to ourselves that however small it may be, there is a certain amount of sexual energy related to it. Just the way I feel at the moment - Much love to y'all, Annie

[bridget thronton]

If people want to think I am gay - let them. My wife knows my sexual preferences and no one else matters.

[BillieAnneJean]

We form our first glance appraisal of people as children, long before technology knowledge, even in today's world. As toddlers we learn who has the comforting touch, who is more likely to be a bit aloof. We learn to access what the people's interaction to us will be, by their gender. Same for the children we play with even as toddlers. So this first glance gender opinion forms as an early building block of our interaction habits. That is why people, even those with reduced social abilities, think they have a knack for deciding even at first glance what another person is about.

And yes, women, in the west anyway, have freedom to wear men's clothing. They have more freedom of choice in clothing than men do, again in the west.

But ask yourself, would crossdressing be so much fun if it wasn't a bit taboo?

[AnnieMac]

No you are right BAJ, it probably wouldn't be as fun, but as toddlers if we learned who aloof ones were, and also who the comforting ones were when we were very young, I think ALL males would be crossdressers. I happen to think we really all are, but most males would never admit that interest. Although were are a bit nutty here sometimes, we are mostly open and honest about this part of us I think.

[I Am Paula]

-I can't decide if you're just over sensitive about this, or protesting too much.
-Women do not wear men's clothes. They own them, they are women's clothes.
-How do you know what the public is thinking?

[Krisi]

I know what the public thinks about crossdressers (and transsexuals) because my friends and acquaintances are part of the public and they speak their minds. They think we are gay and/or mentally ill. There's no logical reason for men to wear miniskirts or high heeled shoes. Or to think that we are actually female.

As for the clothes issue, it's beating a dead horse. This argument comes up every few weeks. Jeans or pants bought in the women's department are not "male" clothes. And we shouldn't expect a woman who drives a delivery truck or works in a warehouse to wear a skirt and heels to work. If anyone comes up with a logical reason for a man to wear a skirt and heels, that would be news.

[AnnieMac]

Krisi, perhaps we are a little "mental" here as CDs. I see a lot of delusional posts here on this forum where some believe they are actually female because they dress that way. Now if you are transexual and have transitioned then you are indeed female! (perhaps not naturally, but female none-the-less). I respect transexuals honest bravery in their personal decisions very much. But we as plain old CDs here have to be honest and say we are just guys that like to dress and present as women, simple as that, and we have to be as brave as our transexual sisters. I point to myself as the biggest example of needing to improve and do that.
A great logical reason for a man to wear a dress, would be on an extremely hot day. How I would love to be wearing a very light, cool, comfortable sun dress on those days instead of jeans or shorts. Not cross dress per se, just practical. But think about it, if a man walks outside without pants on, he is seen as a pervert.

[Krisi]

Yes, transsexuals go through a lot and deserve respect, but that doesn't change what the general public thinks about them. They don't think much of crossdressers either, that's why most of us keep our little hobby a secret.

The sun dress might be nice but a dress gets in the way if you're working and it's totally inappropriate if you have to climb a ladder. Shorts and a tee shirt works for me.

[Sara Jessica]

A high level of protest over perception.

Yes, perception is reality. Their reality. Best to get used to it unless you are taking active measures to be part of an effort to change those perceptions.

And why do we care what the unwashed masses think???

[Helen_Highwater]

It's partly our own fault. I've just read a thread about what gives us away when in public. We seek to emulate all the female mannerisms and actions. We don't for the main part dress and then walk down the road as if nothing had changed using our male gait. We often associate with gays by using the pubs, clubs and bars they use. OK not exclusively but to some extent.

There are loads of celebs who've come out as gay and that has made it far more accepted within society. I can only think of one celeb, Eddie Izzard, who's openly CD but even though he's been interviewed many times his sexuality doesn't get discussed and by association that of the majority of CD'ers.

Cinema doesn't help. How often do you see a vamp CD coming on to the male lead, think Crocodile Dundee. Even the brilliant performance in Dallas Buyer Club painted a sad picture of someone who would do anything to get drugs. I've not yet seen The Danish Girl but even that from what I've seen in the trailers, shows someone who's sexuality alters as their dressing progresses. We need a film about someone like us who has a family, home, job, all the "normal" things but dresses who comes out of the closet so that all the things talked about here can be explored on the big screen. It's that sort of exposure that will help change perceptions.


Sara,
"And why do we care what the unwashed masses think??? " Because we still have to take extra care when being out and about to avoid the unwanted attentions of the neanderthals. Because we need law makers to have a better understanding of our why's and what's and because it improves the environment for those who will follow on behind us.

[JeanTG]

Most folks can't even figure out who goes first at a 4-way stop sign. And we expect them to know the finer points of a gender minority? Honestly I'm not too bothered if folks think I'm gay. Sometimes I think it would be just easier to tell folks I'm gay. Gay they can wrap their heads around. TG that likes women... not so much. Heck why should homosexuals have monopoly on the term "gay"? I vote we make "gay" apply to everyone in the LGBTetc. spectrum. Then no explanation is necessary. I have very little sexual interest, for instance in women other than my wife. If a lady ever makes an advance on me (whether en femme or en homme), saying "sorry, I'm gay" allows her to escape gracefully without feeling rejected and is much easier to say than "sorry, I'm TG, and I suspect that I would eventually disappoint you as a man and probably don't live up to your concept of "masculine" because of it, so no sense getting involved".

[Amy Lynn3]

deebra: I am not in one camp or the other and my post is for information, associated with your post. I am single, and date only women. I am on several dating sites and I ran a small test for my information and the outlook women have on crossdressers.

When women have contacted me about going out with me, I have ask some test questions. They boil down to.....would it be okay with you if I wore some items of clothing designed for a female, if we dated?

Wow !!!!! My computer screen starts to smoke. The overwhelming response is.....why in the world does a good looking man like you want to do something like that? They do not want to take the time to understand why I would do that, they just think I am a freak and move on.

Not sure that answers your question, but it does support the fact that most...so called normal people...look at us as perverts and it is easy for them to call us gay, that find out the truth about why we dress. I think that is why, when we see post of a supporting wife, we all go bonkers and wish we could find a woman who supports our dressing.

[mechamoose]

Where/Why does the public automatically think a man that dresses in female clothing to what ever degree is GAY?

Because it is easy and obvious, and doesn't require them to think outside the gender binary world they grew up with.

To many, feminine == interested in masculine.

They really are unfamiliar with thinking outside of that little box. Sad.

[Beverley Sims]

Mmmm!
What colour are CD glasses?

[Sky]

Or am I looking at it through CD glasses?

Yup. Hard to avoid when you're a cd.

[Tina81]

I believe it's a combination of things. First, it's misunderstanding or lack of knowledge of why men crossdress. I recall on You Tube a Phil Donahue show on crossdressers with the wives and an attempt to explain why men crossdress but the discussion got overshadowed by the visual effects of "a man in a dress". I think it was filmed back in the late 70s or 80s based on the fashion. If the media explained to the public about crossdressing, it would be more accepted. Second, when the public sees a man in a dress, the reaction tends to be, "he must be a transexual" like Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner.

Times are a changing though...check out....http://www.laweekly.com/news/brian-a...h-that-4431752 (Brian and Debbie McCloskey: He Wears a Dress. She's Fine With That) and http://www.npr.org/2015/04/03/397089...t-make-the-man (Longtime Couple Found That Clothes Didn't Make The Man), http://www.etonline.com/news/165398_...dla_sternberg/ (Jaden Smith Wears Dress to Prom, Attends with 'Hunger Games' Actress Amandla Sternberg) or http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/...ry?id=31831733 (Susan Sarandon Proud to Have a Son Who Wears Dresses)

I recently saw a fella wear a dress in my local supermarket and no one said a thing. He was wearing clogs, dress and a polo shirt.

[AnnieMac]

What colour are CD glasses? . . . probably the same color beer goggles are at 2am.

Seriously though, the "he must be a transexual" like Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner. as inaccurate as this is for us male hetero only CD types, as much as I hate to admit it, does give us a little bit of an out (although false) when explaining ourselves to the confused public when we are dressed in the wild. Its like the comment above, it's just easier to say you're gay, or transgender like Caitlyn than explain the whole "only a CD" deal. However we all would probably do ourselves a big favor in the long run if we just openly owned our male CD -ness to the public. Oh so easy to say for Annie from her soapbox hidden in the closet, but I'm working on the courage part. One that posts here a lot that probably is a good example of this forward thinking is Kandi Robbins. I wish I could be so easy and breezy about my CD in public, but I'm just not there yet.

[Tracii G]

I'll post what I have found 95% of the time I asked women this question." would you wear mens clothes?"
The most common answer is No because they aren't made to fit a female body. 100% of the women I asked said they liked to wear their SO's shirts on occasion.
The reason being it smells like their man and reminds them of him.
I have heard this comment from a cis woman to the question about wearing mens clothes. Why would I want to look like a butchy lesbian?
So I guess the gay thing goes both ways and far as wearing clothes of the opposite gender.
It boils down to if you are worried about being called gay because you wear womens clothes then grow some thick skin or stay in the closet.

PS the clothes you think are mens clothes on a woman you see out and about are probably not mens clothes and in fact ladies clothes.
Foe example BF jacket,BF jeans,hiking boots,hoodies etc.

[Amanda M]

For me, the biggest issue here is education. However, I wonder if some people think "He dresses as a woman, and many women dress to if not attract, at least to impress men. Hence the colours, the clingy clothes, the soft fabrics that so called fashion pushes at women. Is it too far a leap of the imagination for non CD men to think that CD folks want a relationship in which they are treated sexually as a woman? Thoughts on a postcard......

[AnnieMac]

Yeah Amanda, you bring up a pretty good point, that I perhaps forget being male (DOH!). How embedded and necessary sexuality, and attractiveness is and how women have to carry this burden with them throughout their lives. We as mere CDs will probably never understand this pressure to be beautiful when it is necessary for GGs 24-7. SO of course it would be part of female fashion. I feel a little bad about that. I think it is represented also in comments GGs have made to me about how they feel in the same clothes that a we like so much. They have often told me that a women can feel "sexy" in them, in more of a confidence attractive sense, than "sexual" in them like we male CDs often feel. Inaccurate maybe, but Yeah not so big of a leap.

[Jennifer W]

I know I don't post here very often, but my theory is this. Most, not all, guys try to look like a woman with fake breasts, wigs, mannerisms and etc. Most women may be wearing women's clothes that resemble men's clothes but are women's. They also don't try to look like a man (in most cases) by wearing a fake beard and something in their pants to resemble male anatomy. I have a mustache and goatee. If I were to wear a dress and heels in public, I most certainly would be the proverbial "man in a dress."
I wear yoga pants or leggings in public most days. People look and may wonder but I just go about my business and couldn't care less what people think of me.

[Alice Torn]

Amy Lynn, dittos here. I have yet to find a single GG who wants to date a single CD guy. Tabboo, religious reasons, tradition, yada yada.

[Tina_gm]

CD goggles for sure. Sorry to sprinkle some truth fairy dust on this thread.... but I see this thread come up from time to time. WE who CD have a much stronger than typical femininity than cisgender men have. Often this comes out not just when we are dressed. Many of us, myself as well have commented on feminine mannerisms that just occur naturally.

Now take a majority of gay men.... who are more feminine than non gay men... am I getting warmer here? Now take just about every media presentation of TG anything, and almost all have had the TG portrayals have an interest in men. Now take women, who will think to themselves, if a guy "feels" like a woman, enough to want to dress and present/act as one, it will only seem logical to them that we who wish to look and act as they do, will also be interested in men as well.

We are just beginning to climb out of the dark ages of information regarding ourselves as being TG. It really has only been a relatively small number of years. It is simply just not enough time for people to understand how sexuality and gender identity are not completely intertwined.

[AnnieMac]

I mostly agree with you gendermutt ( and you do have the coolest avatar name on this forum!) for the most part, but I never see Gay men as more feminine. The have their own gay-male way of speaking and talking, and that's perfectly expected and fine, but their own gay uniqueness doesn't remind me of females in the least. We are indeed a whole rainbow of people insides and out, and that's welcome indeed, because it makes life full and wonderful. Lets hope the climb out is a short one or at least speeds up a little.