Passing vs Not

[Someone777]

So, I'm a bit torn on this one.

I'm actually not even going to talk about this in terms specific to crossdressing. For the purpose of this discussion, people who "pass" will be the 20 something and everyone else will be the 60 something year old lady. Also, I'm going to talk about nudists instead of crossdressing in an effort to diffuse some of the passion people will have and to make a point. The ages are a bit random, you can substitute "young" and "old" and let them be whatever age you want. So, try not to get too hung up on the ages I picked for this example. If it makes a difference, there was a time when I was the 20 something but that time has passed. I know, that was terrible of me to start a serious discussion with a lame pun.

On the one hand, you have the young hot looking 20 something that would be pretty much accepted anywhere publicly in nearly anything she wears.

On the other hand, you have the 60 something year old 300+ lbs lady that would get dirty looks for pretty much anything she wears but the more revealing her clothes are the more dirty looks she'll get.

I don't really believe people should discriminate against the overweight lady for not being young and hot looking. Yet, I feel everyone should have limits on what they do and do not wear in public. I'm not going to tease the overweight lady for being out in public but I also really don't want to see, all of that. As for what she does in private, that's really none of my business.

So, let's pretend these fictional example people are both nudists. In both cases, their hobby would be considered illegal and socially unacceptable. Yet, the hot looking 20 something would probably be able to get away with it a lot more than the less attractive 60 something could get away with. To be even remotely fair, we shouldn't punish one more than the other but there's no helping that some will find one more offensive looking than the other. We don't really get to choose what we find attractive looking or offensive looking. Should it really be illegal to be nude in public? I don't know, I'd say probably not. I'd also say I don't really want to see that. My point is, whether it's right or not, we're more likely to lean one way picturing the 20 something and more likely to lean the other picturing the 60 something. The most annoying part is we don't get much of a choice in how we feel about it.

While I definitely feel like the line we draw for acceptable and unacceptable should be the same for both people, just where do you draw the line? Society keeps redrawing it from one extreme to the other. There are those who only want to see the most conservative dress where almost no skin is revealed and then there are those who'd support public nudity. Should we all be required to wear hooded cloaks that conceal everything or should we all be walking around in our birthday suits? Is there even a reasonable middle ground here? I really don't know.

I see both sides of the argument and feel really conflicted about it. I don't want to hate but there are some things I just don't want to see. Yet, I don't enjoy being told what I have to wear. I don't mind compromising on what I'm allowed to wear in public, as long as I can dress in a way I find reasonably comfortable, but that brings us back to the problem of where to draw the line. Some people genuinely feel uncomfortable wearing any clothes at all. Some only like clothes that aren't socially accepted. How can you possibly make everyone happy? Who's going to have to be left feeling uncomfortable/offended?

You know, there was a time in my life where I liked to believe I could see the inner beauty in everyone, then I saw someone for which there was simply not enough eye bleach. I'd like to say I was more horrified by my reaction to what I was seeing than by what I was seeing but I was too overwhelmed to even say I know which horrified me more. So, painfully, I must admit there are some things, some people, in this world I just would rather not look at. The more I see of them the more difficult it is for me when they are in view. I'm not going to hate but we all have our limits on what we can handle, you know? At some point, you will see a person, you're mind going to "Nope." really hard and you're going to have to look away. So, what do you do in a situation where you are not really allowed to either look or walk away? In that situation, the less of them they are showing off, the easier it will be on you. Is it a bit selfish to want others to shield themselves from your eyes? Yes. Yet, in society, we're expected to be conscious of those around us and try to be at least somewhat accommodating. The way I see it, I try to make my appearance less offensive to others in the hope that they will return the favor.

In my heart, we all have beautiful souls. Yet, my eyes are cruel *******s that try to twist my heart with ugly reflections.

In an ideal world, we could all go when and where we want dressed any way we want and no one would ever feel offended. Unfortunately, this world is far from ideal.

What are your thoughts on it?

My apologies if the title seems a bit misleading. This post kind of went a different way than I expected and I can't think of a better title now.

_{I'm not sure what kind of real debate I'm expecting given where I'm posting this (I'm not going to be surprised if the replies tend to be one sided) but this kind of thing gets stuck in my mind from time to time.}

[Jenniferathome]

I think you are working off a bad assumption. "younger" does NOT equal "passing."

Virtually none of the millions cross dressers pass any scrutiny beyond a glance. But no one cares so it does't matter.

[Someone777]

Sorry, I was making up a completely fictional example. The purpose of the "passing" being "younger" was to make the examples themselves more extreme in their differences. It's hard to have a starker difference than a young 20 something lady that's fit and good looking compared to a very overweight older lady. I was using them strictly in the sense of what they can get away with wearing in public. For example, if my two made up people were to put on short-shorts and a tank top and head to Walmart, both would draw a lot of attention but the type of attention would be quite different. That's really the comparison I was trying to make there. I wasn't trying to claim that being young means you can pass.

[Julogden]

I think you are working off a bad assumption. "younger" does NOT equal "passing."

Virtually none of the millions cross dressers pass any scrutiny beyond a glance. But no one cares so it does't matter.

No crossdressers pass any scrutiny beyond a glance? That is just plain wrong.

I've had the experience of sitting in a restaurant having an early breakfast in Chicago with friends after a night at a local club and having two Chicago police officers sit as close to us as they possibly could in the virtually empty restaurant and watch our every move in hope of finding a reason to arrest us while whispering to each other and laughing at us. They asked our waitress if we were causing any trouble, and when she told them that were not causing any problems and to leave us alone, I thought they were going to arrest her.

I recently saw someone, appeared to be living full time (not sure what her status was but I recognized her as being one of us} who was simply shopping in the local Aldi and got harassed by another shopper until she and the woman she was with abandoned their cart and left the store. I didn't see it happen but I heard the woman who ran them off boasting to someone she called on her phone afterward to share the big laughs about running a "tranny" out of the store.

It often DOES matter, especially if you don't pass.

[Tracii G]

Julo you should have said something to that nasty person for doing that.
I know I would have and I'm sure the Aldi mgr would have liked to know too.
If you stand by and let things happen like this nothing will change.

[LondonSteve]

Aye discrimination is an ugly thing. Once I was at a cd night in a sex club and there sat an old man in a pink tutu. No make up or wig just an old man with grey hair, pink tutu and mens shoes. He caused quite a commotion. a lot of the CD's though he shouldn't be allowed in. The better they looked the higher their outrage. I thought they were uglier than that old man. At least he was honest.

[Robin414]

Long post and my ADD almost kicked in but my take away was the part about inner beauty, I get that and I like to think I have the skill down pat. I interact with a lot of people and I've known many physically attractive people who are down right ugly on the inside and vice versa. That said though, I know a lot of physically gorgeous people who are just the same on the inside as well (talk about a win/win) and yes, those who are fuggly inside and out ( 😧 )

I like to think I can see the soul and other than a five minute interaction, THAT really is what counts!

Do I 'pass', I think if you get past the first five minutes, yah, sure I do ☺

[lingerieLiz]

When I was in my late teens and 20s I passed and was that pretty 20 year old. Or was told I was. I know because back in the 50s and 60s it was illegal to go out dressed. Today at my age it would be hard. But I think we all need to realize that we seek the ideal by nature. Not everyone has the same ideal. On the other hand one should not exclude anyone because they are different. Let me also point out that people congregate with like kind. It is part of nature.

[Secret Drawer]

Another way to twist this is the "too good looking" problem. There are gender males who would be "trophy husbands," or "catches" for a cis-gendered woman. Imagine the 'horror' that one of these "hunky guys" actually likes to get his "girl on." Oddly enough, it may be a bit easier to be average or not attractive, you attract less attention or in the case of being actually hard to look at, would simply be ignored. Isn't it ultimately what most CD's want anyway? Just to go out and about being generally ignored?

[Someone777]

Aye discrimination is an ugly thing. Once I was at a cd night in a sex club and there sat an old man in a pink tutu. No make up or wig just an old man with grey hair, pink tutu and mens shoes. He caused quite a commotion. a lot of the CD's though he shouldn't be allowed in. The better they looked the higher their outrage. I thought they were uglier than that old man. At least he was honest.

That's rough.

It's possible he did it just to rile people up but I'd like to believe he was just a tired old man and a pink tutu was all he could manage. Either way, the outrage was really uncalled for. I hope someone took the time to get to know the old man in the tutu.

Long post and my ADD almost kicked in but my take away was the part about inner beauty, I get that and I like to think I have the skill down pat. I interact with a lot of people and I've known many physically attractive people who are down right ugly on the inside and vice versa. That said though, I know a lot of physically gorgeous people who are just the same on the inside as well (talk about a win/win) and yes, those who are fuggly inside and out ( �� )

I like to think I can see the soul and other than a five minute interaction, THAT really is what counts!

Do I 'pass', I think if you get past the first five minutes, yah, sure I do ☺

Sorry, I tend to post text walls when I'm tired, where I ramble on about my musings.

My first impressions of people are rarely wrong. Yet, no one would ever know because I tend to be really introverted in the real world. By the time I finally speak to someone, I've usually moved past the "first impression" phase. This is great for those rare times when I get it wrong about someone. It's kind of terrible for forming favorable first impressions of my own. I've been accused of being mute on more than one occasion.

In my original post, I mentioned I have trouble looking at people who are too outwardly "fugly" for lack of a better term. Well, it's not just that, it's anyone that looks like they're sick, abused or just have generally had a rough life. It's not because of my vanity, even though I made the mistake of assuming that was the case the first time it happened. It's more to do with the fact I'm overly empathetic by nature. Now, don't confuse empathy with sympathy. It's literally painful for me to look at someone that looks like they're in pain or have been through a lot of pain. It's a large part of why I'm not the most social person. I get really overloaded in crowds trying to process all the things I can't ignore. Most people have this filter in their brain that keeps them from wasting time on things that aren't important to them. For me, that filter just doesn't work. I've considered it a real blessing that I became near-sighted. I'm not perfect, I slip-up sometimes but I try really hard not to judge people by appearances.

Anyways, I was just more-or-less thinking out loud about social inequalities related to outer and inner beauty among people with hobbies like crossdressing. Even among a group of outcasts like us, people who are "pretty" get treated different than those who aren't. It's sad, really.

I've often wondered what the world would be like if your outer beauty was a direct reflection of your inner beauty. I get the feeling it would be a handful of shining beauties in the middle of a real horror show. Then, I'm forced to wonder, how would I look in such a world.

[LondonSteve]

That's rough.

It's possible he did it just to rile people up but I'd like to believe he was just a tired old man and a pink tutu was all he could manage. Either way, the outrage was really uncalled for. I hope someone took the time to get to know the old man in the tutu.


.

I did. He was an interesting guy. He had quite a life behind him.

[pamela7]

if we work on ourselves enough we can undo this "beauty/beast" judgement thing, and see the beauty in all others. For example in 2010 I met a human troll; on the surface they'd appear ugly compared to a supermodel, but when you recognise their true archetype instead you see the beauty; same with human trees; wizened old bent forms sometimes, but with beauty that remains/is more beautiful naked than clothed; as we were designed by nature to be. Human whales/fish types will often be large-bellied, apparently obese, but again the beauty is there with the archetypal form. I see clothes as useful for extreme weather, for practical things like avoiding skin rub in delicate places, but otherwise go nude.

As to passing, a conventionally-ugly old CD is more likely to pass as an ugly old maid than a young beauty is imho.

xxx Pamela