the impossible dilemmas of visibility

[Badtranny]

I just don’t get that being referred to as a transwoman is a problem. .

How long have you been out? I didn't mind it either back when I thought I would never be seen as anything different.

Then time happens, and you find yourself in situations where nobody seems to know. Holy shit, I don't think anyone knows. ...and then it happens again a few months later, and then again.

Eventually you're at a new job (transition wrecked the old one) and it's been 4 years or so since the name change and you're surrounded by people who never knew you before, and a few that have actually forgotten they knew you before and you don't know how long this will last but you know two things.

1. You like it.
2. You do NOT want to be anywhere near the word "trans"

I am down with all my girls who have bit the bullet and transitioned, but I have little patience for those that try to diminish the experience of doing it while going to work every day.

[PretzelGirl]

DeeAnn, there are many woman who have neither been through childbirth or menopause. So to answer, I say no. All women have a variety of experiences and there is no one set that belongs to all. We are individuals.

[jandebs]

How long have you been out?

This is the kind of interrogation that completely turns me off the trans community. Anyway, for the record, about 12 years. And a decade before that moving through transition. I don't mean 'out' on the weekend either. I mean every single minute of every single day in ALL relationships, and ALL circumstances.

[Badtranny]

This is the kind of interrogation that completely turns me off the trans community.

Interrogation? How long have you been out? Yikes, if that's the worst you've encountered in the last 12 years then you've had a dream transition. Consider yourself lucky.

You know what turns me off of the trans community? Snowflakes and Posers, and our "community" is chock full of them.

You said you didn't understand why being considered trans is a problem and I was trying to explain. I certainly didn't think it was such an offensive question.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn, there are many woman who have neither been through childbirth or menopause. So to answer, I say no. All women have a variety of experiences and there is no one set that belongs to all. We are individuals.

That's just it. There are a variety of experiences. That might suggest that any one of which could be a point of separation. Some of the things that come to mind would include (but not limited to) anything for which a uterus is required, anything that is effected by the relative strength difference compared to males, losing ones virginity (more from the social and psychological perspective), etc. I don't think it is necessarily a group of experiences as you never know what someone's views and references are.

DeeAnn

[pamela7]

I do not wish to offend anyone, and if anyone is then it's their problem not mine - see post 7 for my first input. So with this caveat; there will always be a difference between a GG and a woman who transitions her body from male form to female form, whether we like it or not. By analogy, Michael Jackson could do all the skin-whitening treatments he liked but it was not going to change how the rest of the world saw his racio-ethnic origin. We're stuck with our racial, genetic, career-type, class-level judgements and separations. Humanity is one big very dysfunctional family; we're all unique. There are cliques in golf clubs, directors lounges, a stereotypical white male middle class middle manager will probably feel out of place sitting with the shop floor machinists at lunch break.

It's not easy to be accepted into lifelong cliques, and it's not easy to be accepted into demographics where you're not like the norm. That is society as it presently is. It's also much harder for the clique members to accept incomers than we might think. So, don't judge them for not accepting us, don't take it personally, and don't make yourself suffer for it. If you want to be in on girl-talk then open the disclosing on physical issues for example.

Speaking of which, it's not easy to join this part of the forum, either. I felt distinctly not accepted to begin with.

[flatlander_48]

It's not easy to be accepted into lifelong cliques, and it's not easy to be accepted into demographics where you're not like the norm.

Unfortunately the first hurdle is the prejudices that are held, but rarely admitted (internally and externally).

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

One of my friends said in general that she doesn't like saying Transgender Woman but if the distinction needs to be made, it should be Woman who is Transgender which keeps us from being held separate and just being women. I like that and have used it.

Jenny Boylan, during an episode of I Am Cait, recently said, “My identity as a woman is much more important to me than my identity as a trans woman.”

I could not agree more, and it's how I see my world. "Woman" is my noun. "Transgender" is just one of many adjectives that apply to it, and (IMO) not a terribly important one. It's had a tremendous impact on the course my life has taken up to this point, but it says a lot less about me than words like "smart", "funny", "musical", and "caring".

[Kaitlyn Michele]

some people couldnt stand their pp's and wanted to cut them off themselves, and others are totally content transitioning "Loaded"...

some cant stand the idea of trans, and some are proudly gender outlaw...

some try to blend in and some try to stand out...
there is no wrong or right to it...

[gonegirl]

I do not wish to offend anyone, and if anyone is then it's their problem not mine - see post 7 for my first input. So with this caveat; there will always be a difference between a GG and a woman who transitions her body from male form to female form, whether we like it or not

... says the person who hasn't done anything to transition their body. 🤔

People can intellectualuze all they want (this forum is brimming with it), but until someone has lived the experience, how can they possibly know what they are talking about?

[flatlander_48]

That would suggest that it IS necessary to get hit by a truck to know that it Hurts.

DeeAnn

[PretzelGirl]

There is a big difference between knowing a large, fast moving object hitting you will hurt and all the mental gymnastics of going through a transition. I would like to think I would be done with this, but I am getting hit with more things I didn't come close to projecting.

[Badtranny]

That would suggest that it IS necessary to get hit by a truck to know that it Hurts.

That's a terrible analogy Flats. I do really enjoy most of your posts and find you to be insightful most of the time but THIS time you're off the mark. You simply can't compare something everyone has experienced; physical pain with something that very few have experienced; a public gender transition.

Does getting boob implants hurt? Yes. What does it feel like? I can't explain it. Does SRS hurt? I'm told it does. What does it feel like? I couldn't tell you. Is coming out at work hard? Hells yeah. How hard is it? There is no comparison. Does it hurt when someone changes ever so slightly almost imperceptibly when they find out you're trans? Yes it does. Can I describe it? No I'm afraid I can't. I can tell you I have felt it, but I can't tell you how it feels.

How does it feel to be wet? How do you describe being naked and wet when the water isn't cold? What is that feeling exactly? Can I do anything else that feels similar?

The transition experience is like nothing else in this world. It will change you. It will break you, then it will fix you. You will not be the same person when your transition becomes a memory. This is not arguable. Anyone who doesn't think this process hurts either hasn't done it, or is not being truthful about doing it.

[Georgette_USA]

Does SRS hurt? I'm told it does. What does it feel like? I couldn't tell you.
You will not be the same person when your transition becomes a memory. This is not arguable.

Hurt and pain are different for all.

On the first, my partner described it like sitting on a hot fire hydrant, from somewhere you never had before. I took morphine for a day or two, just to be able to sleep.

On the second after all the times from start to SRS yes plenty of hurt, not so much pain. My partner and I wanted to put it all behind us. After 40 years for me it is all bits and pieces of memory. I can't remember any really bad times, so I guess they couldn't have been too bad. Most of all I can't remember too many things before. Do wish I had documented it all better.

[flatlander_48]

That's a terrible analogy Flats DeeAnn.

No, it isn't. It's just a slight rearrangement of something that is commonly said.

I do really enjoy most of your posts and find you to be insightful most of the time but THIS time you're off the mark. You simply can't compare something everyone has experienced; physical pain with something that very few have experienced; a public gender transition.

Don't get hung up in the particular text that was used. But, it does mirror (in principle) exactly what you, and S, said.

Does it hurt when someone changes ever so slightly almost imperceptibly when they find out you're trans? Yes it does. Can I describe it? No I'm afraid I can't. I can tell you I have felt it, but I can't tell you how it feels.

I suspect that if we waited for experiences to match 100% (or something close), we probably would turn to dust well before it happened. But, through the power of analogues, I think I have a pretty good handle on this one. It's like having a series of phone conversation with someone you've never met. Then, at some point in the future, you do meet. The reaction upon meeting is usually not conveyed by words. Rather is it a slight and momentary shift in expression when they realize that the person that have been talking to for all this time is Black. Similar to the situation that you describe, you realize that you are now in a different category. You've lost position, status, etc. that you will likely not get back. It's clear that you have been demoted to "Less Than..." status. And how does it feel? It is the most frustrating of experiences because you know that there is nothing that you can do directly.

So, how close was I?

DeeAnn

[gonegirl]

So, how close was I?
DeeAnn

How close? Well, you were right in that it does hurt.

I'll use another analogy.... you're a transgender individual who has just signed up for the local elementary school walkathon, ten times around the school with the 1st graders, and now you're on National television (effectively this forum) explaining in detail what the top female finishers of yesterday's Boston Marathon experienced, and sacrificed, to attain their goals.

So, what's it like to transition, DeeAnn?

[ReineD]

... when they realize that the person that have been talking to for all this time is Black. Similar to the situation that you describe, you realize that you are now in a different category. You've lost position, status, etc. that you will likely not get back. It's clear that you have been demoted to "Less Than..." status.

If this is an analogy to a transwoman being thought of "less than" a GG, your analogy is flawed in that only bigoted people demote black people. My point is, there are an equal number (if not more) people who don't. I'm sure that Arbon's friends don't think less of her because she was not born with XY chromosomes.

[flatlander_48]

How close? Well, you were right in that it does hurt.

I'll use another analogy.... you're a transgender individual who has just signed up for the local elementary school walkathon, ten times around the school with the 1st graders, and now you're on National television (effectively this forum) explaining in detail what the top female finishers of yesterday's Boston Marathon experienced, and sacrificed, to attain their goals.

So, what's it like to transition, DeeAnn?

I don't think that what you describe works in the same way. The construct that I described was functionally similar to what arbon originally described. The point was that I believe that you can get to very similar internalizations by different paths.

If this is an analogy to a transwoman being thought of "less than" a GG, your analogy is flawed in that only bigoted people demote black people. My point is, there are an equal number (if not more) people who don't. I'm sure that Arbon's friends don't think less of her because she was not born with XY chromosomes.

Actually, I wouldn't call it being bigoted. It's a question of expectations. Similarly, how many times has it happened that after meeting a movie star people say "I thought he was taller.". We form images in our minds; sometimes they are correct, sometimes they are not.

Back to the original premise, this shift in perception is noticeable. Perhaps my description of "demoted" and "less than" was a bit dramatic, but at the very least there is "other than" status. In arbon's case I'm not sure what causes this, but I would posit that it is the difference between intellectually having information and internalizing the information. In other words, it is one thing to see trans people on TV and in the news and agreeing (in principle) with what people are trying to do (protections, rights, etc.). But, it is quite another to have this reality in front of you and being forced to deal with it directly. The person knew how to interact with arbon before the admission, but what about after? Whether this shake-up is temporary or long-lasting is hard to say. But, it is something that needs to get sorted if the relationship is to continue to move forward.

DeeAnn

[arbon]

It is an internal conflict I have between being a "trans" woman and my desire to just be a normal non trans woman.

[flatlander_48]

Well, the point is that every time someone has a reaction to you as originally described, it puts the issue squarely back in front of you. Coming to grips with it, from your perspective, won't stop the reactions of others. Not sure what will, but we are only in control of ourselves.

DeeAnn

[Badtranny]

On the second after all the times from start to SRS yes plenty of hurt, not so much pain. My partner and I wanted to put it all behind us. After 40 years for me it is all bits and pieces of memory. I can't remember any really bad times, so I guess they couldn't have been too bad. Most of all I can't remember too many things before. Do wish I had documented it all better.

I'm sorry but what? Are you seriously asserting that you've never been the victim of trans bigotry in 40 years? You've said that you weren't on HRT yet you somehow remained healthy with no sex hormones in your body AND looked so feminine from day one that you disappeared into womanhood, and no one was the wiser?

What does "from start to SRS" even mean?

[Georgette_USA]

I'm sorry but what? Are you seriously asserting that you've never been the victim of trans bigotry in 40 years? You've said that you weren't on HRT yet you somehow remained healthy with no sex hormones in your body AND looked so feminine from day one that you disappeared into womanhood, and no one was the wiser?

What does "from start to SRS" even mean?

I must be the luckiest person around. Yes from after SRS I did just disappear into womanhood, not so sure on the whole idea of looked so feminine. I think I have posted a pic of myself and my partner from 1977/78 on another thread. For a few years would have regular sex with men from regular clubs, and they had no problems with me. And had a on/off affair with one Lesbian. The only people that knew me prior were in the company I transitioned with. Found out recently that I was fairly well known, and there were NO negative comments.

From what I can remember yes NO victim of Trans bigotry. There may have been some pointing/joking when I was doing my daytime outings during 1974-1976, but NO problems. There was a brief period from DEC 76 to MAY 77, when work said for legal reasons I could not work as female. After MAY started to work as female they requested I use the female facilities in the upper floors where I was not as well known. After I came back, they had NO problems with me. I assume my presentation was OK, as they would send me to other sites and places to work on special projects. No one ever questioned my presentation. I think because TS was so rare/uncommon people did not even think about that. Not sure if any of this might be considered Trans bigotry now a days.

As I have said I had HRT from 1975-1985. But quit after consulting with my OB/GYN. I cannot explain the idea of NO sex hormones as I was never tested, small amounts are made in the outer layer of the adrenal glands in both sexes. They didn't bother doing testing back then. I have had my Testosterone and LH and FSH checked, they are in the range for a post-menopausal female. Working on getting the estrogen levels checked. As others from that era, I call it the dark ages, as we were the guinea pigs.

From start of transition after military, 1974, to the end of transition at SRS, 1977. I try to keep my answers short and to the point at times. I guess the rest of our lives will always be a transition.

Melissa,
Not sure why I have to keep going over all this with you. Why would I come up with all this and for what purpose. I DO NOT advocate any one now follow my journey. It was probably very risky compared to now.
If you have a problem with me, send a pm and explain.

[pamela7]

In a passive-aggressive world, perhaps the most likely form of trans bigotry will be the deafening silence of some people? I know I live in the UK, and the SouthWest at that, which is generally a very nice and safe place to live, I don't go out late-night clubbing and I don't have an employer, but really my daily life if anything happens it's like yesterday; a lovely smile from a pregnant lady in the supermarket - to me, with me wearing no make-up and a day's stubble. If people have a problem, they don't look, just like they don't look at beggars or refugees or punks or whichever it is they don't want to see.

[PaulaQ]

You have to learn to love yourself, hon. At that point you'll care less about how others see you.

[Angela Campbell]

It is an internal conflict I have between being a "trans" woman and my desire to just be a normal non trans woman.

You are a normal woman!