Just lost my business.

[ReineD]

It's not an attack on Jaye. They are honest questions to Jaye in an attempt to help Jaye not be so afraid to the point where it will impact her decisions to go out and enjoy herself. When she does go out, is she really treated badly, worse than before. Is she refused service. Do people behave in a threatening manner towards her.

And do you honestly believe that I support these bills?

My only explanation is that you are perhaps allowing yourself to be engulfed by fears too. I suppose this is a natural reaction. I gave into these fears too when I first joined this forum. I would read a thread about CDers fantasizing being with men, and I'd tell myself that ALL CDers were secretly gay including my SO. But when my beliefs began to have a negative impact on my relationship, I realized that I needed to become more objective.

So when CDers and TGs' fears begin to impact them negatively, such as Jaye perhaps making the decision to no longer go out, or you refusing to visit friends in the US, don't you think it's time to try to look at the situation more objectively?

An analogy is the people in Paris or Belgium, or even in NYC after terrorist attacks. The prevailing attitude was, they would not give into their fears and stay home. They refused to allow the terrorists to win.

[I Am Paula]

Any thoughts as to my safety are secondary. If I wanted to visit I'd simply go to Vermont, or California et al. My point is I cannot go wherever I want, as I used to, because of a very real threat, more importantly, yours has become a country with two sets of human rights, and I fall into the group with less.

[gonegirl]

Any thoughts as to my safety are secondary.... My point is I cannot go wherever I want, as I used to, because of a very real threat...

What is your primary threat, if it's not your safety? Is it that you won't be allowed into the ladies room? I live in the US and I have no idea how that bathroom law could be used, short of the police requesting someone's birth certificate and it not matching your true gender.

[Lauri K]

I live in the US and I have no idea how that bathroom law could be used

The issue here is not whether or not the law will withstand enforcement by the authority, however all these hate filled bills / laws have done is just create a frenzy of bathroom watchful eyes.

Truth is TS/TG/CD/Gay/Etc/Etc. all have been using the facilities for many years without issues................but now you have a government authority that has put a bounty on our heads by passing stupid bills like HB2 and 1523 that allow NO protections for us. That is the issue here, and I agree the law is basically non-enforceable. No agency can monitor toilet entrances effectively.

But if you read some of the stuff being posted on social media.............you will fall over with some fear

I read one post that said if I see a transgender in the restroom I am going to scream rape even if I am not threatened. Another one was a from a guy saying that if a transgender was in there with his daughter he was going to beat the transgender person. Do they mean this, probably not as everyone gets taller behind their keyboards on social media.

But the point is we are all on the radar now, and many do not want us around.

Personally I have not had any issues, I live in TX the worst place in the USA for LGBT rights.

Laws or no Laws I going out, will use the facility I identify with and take my chances. I will not cower down to the bigots, but I cannot ignore the facts that there are people out there who want me gone for good.

So in effect the US now has established two sets of human rights by allowing these states to pass their own hateful laws.

I will say this for 10,112th time, we need to get focused on having a national equality law at the federal level.............this is the only real solution. This patchwork of state & local laws is never going to work for us.

[I Am Paula]

Thank you lauriK. There are not yet (and won't be) genital police, and all my ID is in order, including an F birth cert. I can come and go the the letter of the law. That will not help me from the guy who notices I'm tall, or have big hands, or whatever.
As I said many posts ago, there is a huge moral aspect. I'm more afraid of being a lesser human than of the physical threat.

[arbon]

The people most vulnerable to the law are those that work for public entities - such as a university professor for example. If the university knows they had transitioned their going to be required to make the person use the wrong restroom and changing areas. Same for students all ages.

Also, all the focus on the issue does increase peoples awareness of trans people out there and in the restrooms, which is not good overall.

It angers me greatly to be profiled as a male sexual predator by these people...

[Lorileah]

]My point is I cannot go wherever I want, as I used to, because of a very real threat, more importantly, yours has become a country with two sets of human rights, and I fall into the group with less.

To be honest, other than being published now, nothing is different. There have always been places that, given the fact you are trans, you probably should not have ventured to here in the US. Even 50 years after the ERA those places existed. Now, it may be heightened but that is because the media have waved the "fear" flag out there. In my profession, once a year, we put out a press release about a disease, usually Rabies. It hits the news and we would get an upsurge of calls about protecting their pet because "there is rabies out there." Truth was there was rabies out there. But it was now placed where they could read about it. I believe that recent actions in the US is similar. It is scaring people with something they have been exposed to for years and it was a non-issue, until someone MAKES it an issue. This will go away and be in the back of people's minds but not a daily concern...until someone who wants attention brings it back out. I would say you are less safe in specific areas now. Think this way, we have had rattlesnakes for hundreds of years. Along the line someone points out that there are snakes in a certain area. That area gets an increase in rattlesnake hunters...then it goes away.

I would love to say that the US is (and always has been) open and accepting but that isn't true. People fear what they don't understand. This whole thing is nothing but the old saying "let's run this up the flag pole and see who salutes it" by people who have some sort of agenda (needing publicity).

Come, visit, stay away from areas you probably would not have gone anyway. Large metro areas won't even notice you. We don't have two sets of human rights. We have one and the wheels of justice and change grind slowly, but the will grind

[JanePeterson]

I see many of these laws as a means of telegraphing to the folks out there who really do hate us that the gov is really on their side - these legislative efforts aren't driven by innocent misunderstanding, they're an indirect "thumbs up" for bigots to beat people into dissapearing. Still new here, but that's how I feel about it... And in my case it's working... I DO NOT feel very safe going out anywhere near where I live now given the attention.

Didn't they do this to gay people until they became too mainstream to get away with it?

[Emma Beth]

Personally what I see happening is nothing more than the death throws of the old refusing to give way and die off.

I have taken to educating people I know when I see the need.

I had to correct a person the other day online, telling them that you can't stop sexual assault by forcing innocent people into hate crime assault situations.

[Lauri K]

If there is any bright spots to all this, I found a few pieces of uplifting news and almost missed one of them big time.

If you need a lift up from the HB2 doldrums check out the media section for some good news on a Tuesday evening.

Title IX win In Virginia and Target Stores say's Transgender peeps are welcome in their restrooms

[ReineD]

To the mods: I wish I had the talent to put the following post in 50 words or less and not mention political issues in a topic that mostly deals with current political issues, but I will attempt to make this more about what has transpired historically in this country and not about debating which political party is right and who is wrong.

Any thoughts as to my safety are secondary. If I wanted to visit I'd simply go to Vermont, or California et al. My point is I cannot go wherever I want, as I used to, because of a very real threat, more importantly, yours has become a country with two sets of human rights, and I fall into the group with less.

OK. The LGBT community has been marginalized in the US and elsewhere for a long time. You couldn't even have gone out comfortably in public 30 years ago, in either Canada or the US. But, things have been improving since then both here and in Canada. It's still not all the way there, but it is getting better and it will continue to get better.

What I'm trying to point out is, some conservative political groups this year have strategized using TG bathrooms as a wedge issue to solidify a conservative platform (whose fundamental purpose it is to funnel economic profits to the top). They are using the bathroom issue to sneak in provisions that have a negative economic impact on the general working class in the same bills, like caps on minimum wage and no paid sick leave ... for everyone! The provisions related to the bathroom issue ARE NOT representative of people's attitudes in the US towards LGBT. Gay marriage was sanctioned last year by the Supreme Court! And DADT is no longer in force in the US Armed Forces!

You cannot take what a conservative state government did in North Carolina and honestly say that these actions are defended by most people in that state, if you also read the HUGE backlash against that bill (which will be reversed eventually ... the NC Governor has already retracted part of it). The bill wasn't even put to a popular vote, but was instead rushed through the House quickly (within 2 weeks) by a 3/5 majority conservative House!

Maybe you simply are not familiar with certain details of US political history? Read about the Southern Strategy.

And here's more:
http://umich.edu/~lawrace/votetour10.htm
http://www.thenation.com/article/why...hern-strategy/
http://www.salon.com/2015/10/15/deat...o_come_undone/

(Mods, I hope you will allow this. At some point, non-US citizens just need to learn the history if they are to understand where all these bills are coming from, and the real motives).

Do these state governments reflect how the majority of Americans feel on social issues? No, not even among people who live in those states. And honestly, do you think that the majority of people care which bathrooms TGs use? No, it's outside the radar of most people, except the strongly vocal religious right, who have been politically manipulated to feel outraged, not only about TGs using bathrooms, but about gay marriage and women's rights to manage their own bodies. These people feel outraged in large part because of their working class' declining economic status since the 1980s, and so they glom onto to these wedge issues as a way to vent their general anger towards a political system that has failed them. So it's all about putting in motion "divide and conquer" tactics. Get them to fight ideological battles and they won't look too closely at the reasons the middle class is disappearing. Ask Stacy what it's really like living in Mississippi, where the Religious Liberty Accommodations Act HB 1523 was just passed:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post3929071
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...t=#post3929664

Although I understand being fearful before learning all the facts, I do not understand continuing to be fearful after having been told the facts by people who live here. There might be a few members here who continue to fan other people's fears by only reporting the bad news, but please do not allow these posts to sway you into believing that the US has turned into a TG Armageddon. Do you think that most Americans are ready to imprison women who use birth control and have abortions? No, but this is as strong a wedge issue as the TG bathroom bills among the political groups that advance these bills. You've heard about Congressional hearings and attempts to defund Planned Parenthood because of the wedge issue involving Planned Parenthood murdering fetuses so they can sell fetal tissue for stem cell research at a profit?

Anyway, things are safer here for TGs than they were a generation ago (as is the situation in Canada) and they continue to improve. Does this mean that you can walk around in unsavory parts of town at 3 AM? No, but neither can I and I'm not TG.

But, if as a Canadian you don't want to come here because you simply don't like the fact that the US right and left wings are polarized (I dare say that Canada has similar issues) and the real reasons for the polarization have been hidden behind wedge issues, well, that's your prerogative. You may not even like the hate speech (walls and terrorists) against certain ethnic groups spewed by certain presidential front runners, or the racial inequality and racial profiling issues that are causing racial tensions, riots, and unrest on campuses, or the seemingly never ending NRA and 2nd Amendment debates and the persistent refusal to deal with climate issues among some factions, or monied lobbyists influencing government, or the sanctioning of unlimited electoral contributions by big business to attempt control of the government ... and this may subconsciously be giving you the impression that the US is becoming a nation of bigoted fascists, but I assure you that what you read in the headlines is NOT who we are, nor will it win the day. We live in a complicated, messy world and ideological change takes time, that's all.

[Angela Campbell]

I see many of these laws as a means of telegraphing to the folks out there who really do hate us that the gov is really on their side - these legislative efforts aren't driven by innocent misunderstanding, they're an indirect "thumbs up" for bigots to beat people into dissapearing. Still new here, but that's how I feel about it... And in my case it's working... I DO NOT feel very safe going out anywhere near where I live now given the attention.

Didn't they do this to gay people until they became too mainstream to get away with it?

yes and they did it to the black community too. Problem is they began to do so under the radar. Just not as publicly as they are with us right now. Soon we will be suffering the behind the scenes discrimination that blacks, women and gays do.

[I Am Paula]

Thanks for the post ReineD. Overturning these bills is too little, too late. Rainbow colored nooses hanging in trees in (well known state) this morning. They were put there by the people, not the government.

[JanePeterson]

So my previous post aside, I will say that the level of polarization has at least brought these issues into the public domain in a way I haven't seen before (granted, very new here.. And I likely have a strong media bias) - the tenor of the American political climate at the moment is pretty spooky, but it's only exposing things that have always been there... Perhaps the net effects will be positive (pressure to address these rights issues on a national level, or even sway some of the less extreme religious community to advocate for greater acceptance).

But if I had to chose to go out here in northern Michigan, or across the bridge in southern Ontario, on a personal level, I would feel much safer by far in Canada today. The recent surge of bathroom bills etc has put the idea into people's heads where even a few months ago I would never have thought twice about public restroom safety in this area.

[Mayo]

all my ID is in order, including an F birth cert. I can come and go the the letter of the law. That will not help me from the guy who notices I'm tall, or have big hands, or whatever.

Since the laws in most places specify that your gender is what's written on your birth certificate, you should be okay from a legal perspective. But I absolutely understand the concern you mention in your last sentence.

I suspect that the real reason for starting this thread is simply to take a swipe at the US.

Yes, there are a few backwards states in the US that have passed stupid laws that won't hold up in federal court. There are others where transgender protections are stronger than in the GWN.

At least 7 trans people have been murdered in the US since the beginning of this year (in TX x 2, CA x 2, LA, PA, MD). At least two trans women have been attacked in public places (in NY & OR) by individuals or mobs. Your last two sentences may very well be true, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of hate and ignorance in the US that needs to be called out and addressed. Being trans (or CD, for that matter) can get you killed in America (yes, sometimes in Canada too, but we're not talking about that right now). Note that CA, PA, OR and NY are not generally considered to be particularly 'backward' states, but there are (e.g.) active white supremacist groups in those states too, so hate is not necessarily a function of the political leadership.

[LeaP]

I don't quite agree with Jane that group-targeted legislation is an open invitation to violence, but such legislation IS polarizing, and polarization on issues that threaten increase risk by aggravating reactivity. It's easier to overcome social reluctance to attack, especially in groups, when there is a common threat understanding. Someone uncomfortable with trans people who might have been uncertain whether to act may now substitute their bias for a noble motivation - protect the women and children! - and be triggered into justifying violence.

On regional and national differences - as far as I'm concerned, there really aren't any that matter much from a risk standpoint. Anti-trans violence rates are high in Canada, too. You can go to sites like the Canadian Civil Rights Assn. and Canadian Human Rights Commission and see that the same issues are playing out in different ways. Regardless of the law, NO level of legal protection inhibits ACTUAL violence by those most likely to commit it. Nor does the level of cultural acceptance, at least until it's virtually universal, hence violence in the reportedly more tolerant places.

Were gays & lesbians targeted as threats to women and children (in particular) in the same way? Absolutely! And so have been Jews, Roma, and others throughout history. It's a despicable tactic.

The rainbow nooses in Nashville were put there by an art student outside of the art department building. The student intended the cycle of death and rebirth in spring and has apologized profusely. The art teacher was reportedly devastated. Interestingly, though everyone misunderstood the intent of the installation (making this more of a stupid kid thing), some took it as LGBT supportive as well as anti-LGBT or racist. *I* misunderstood it and thought it supportive - a statement about suicide in the community. There is a good discussion to be had (elsewhere, naturally) on the worth of such art. I'm rather sorry it was taken down.

[I Am Paula]

Even the most drug addled art student knows that the colors of our rainbow flag, on nooses is going to be interpreted very badly. I can not believe there is an art student who A) has not read a newspaper, or watched the news. B) Is SO lacking in common sense C) Just happens to live, and go to school in in a hate state.
"The rainbow nooses in Nashville were put there by an art student outside of the art department building. The student intended the cycle of death and rebirth in spring and has apologized profusely. The art teacher was reportedly devastated. Interestingly, though everyone misunderstood the intent of the installation (making this more of a stupid kid thing), some took it as LGBT supportive as well as anti-LGBT or racist. *I* misunderstood it and thought it supportive - a statement about suicide in the community. There is a good discussion to be had (elsewhere, naturally) on the worth of such art."

Not buying it.

[ReineD]

Thanks Lea. The rainbow nooses might better have been accompanied by an artist's statement. It's too easy to misinterpret art. Here's an example of a work by Philip Guston, an artist during the Civil Rights Movement:

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1616783/th...STON-900.jpg?1

This might be interpreted as support for modern day KKK. But instead the artist intended to portray the KKK as circus clowns piled into a small car.

[LeaP]

Exactly, Reine.

Paula, do you have kids?

The pride colors, by the way, also happen to be the actual rainbow colors - same sequence.

[I Am Paula]

We ALL know that nooses symbolize rebirth, and rainbows clearly mean death AND rebirth. Oy vay.

[Tracii G]

I choose to ignore political crap like this and I will ignore the law in this case.
I will and do use the ladies room if I am presenting that way.
If some lady wants to check my genitals I tuck well and she can hunt for it while I yell rape.

[Rachel Smith]

Truth is TS/TG/CD/Gay/Etc/Etc. all have been using the facilities for many years without issues................but now you have a government authority that has put a bounty on our heads by passing stupid bills like HB2 and 1523 that allow NO protections for us. That is the issue here, and I agree the law is basically non-enforceable. No agency can monitor toilet entrances effectively.

But if you read some of the stuff being posted on social media.............you will fall over with some fear

I read one post that said if I see a transgender in the restroom I am going to scream rape even if I am not threatened.

Well won't they be embarrassed when I show them my shriveled up penis and say WITH THIS!?


Laws or no Laws I going out, will use the facility I identify with and take my chances. I will not cower down to the bigots, but I cannot ignore the facts that there are people out there who want me gone for good.

I am with you. Arrest me if you want I don't care. You will not stop me from living.

[Kelly DeWinter]

It is not individual states, or individual laws that worry me so much. It is that what was once touted as the world's greatest democracy, and has fought a civil war, and gone thru the civil rights movement, all over equality, is going to allow it to happen again.

Once the worlds greatest democracy ???? It still is the worlds greatest democracy. Because people disagree on issues and can votes ideas INTO law and vote them OUT of Law is WHAT makes this a great Democracy. Of course the US is not perfect, It was not that long ago that there were NO LGBT rights at all. the only thing is the slowness of the process. In the US we eventually come to the right solution. With 323,384,239 people in the US, it takes awhile. Then you compound it by 50 states.

When I saw the photo of the nooses, my though was that the Artist was brave to make a statement on the subject. Art is meant to be interpretive, provocative and thought producing. I think it was not meant to target any group.

[Rachel Smith]

Note that CA, PA, OR and NY are not generally considered to be particularly 'backward' states, but there are (e.g.) active white supremacist groups in those states too, so hate is not necessarily a function of the political leadership.

I am from PA. Read this article in Phillymag and you will know why I am FROM there as opposed to still there

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/0...sylvania-splc/

[ReineD]

We ALL know that nooses symbolize rebirth, and rainbows clearly mean death AND rebirth. Oy vay.

Ok. Sigh. You are determined to look at it the way you want to look at it, even though what you imagine goes against what people actually experience. I don't know why you persist in not seeing the bigger picture, but it is your prerogative.

Are there people who murder TGs? Sure. And it's a tragedy. Are there people who murder non-TGs? Yup, that happens too. Are we all going to stay home? Not me!

I wish you all the best Paula.