Do we pressure ourselves to conform to classical physical expectations of womanhood?

[Kate T]

I am mindful that what I would like to discuss could come across as inadvertently critical of individuals and their needs. That is most certainly not my intent. I have no answer to my questions that I will pose, they are intended as a basis for discussion.

There is little doubt that there is significant pressure from general cisgendered society for individuals to comply with a classical view of sex as male or female. This is changing gradually however there is still a mountain of both subtle and unsubtle expectations that if you are female then you will have a female external genitalia appearance and if you are male you will have a male external genitalia appearance. This often translates into pressure for TS individuals to undergo surgical interventions to achieve an external genitalia appearance that matches with their social representation of their gender.

I wonder though whether we ourselves as individuals and as a community also place an unspoken expectation that our external genitalia appearance must match our concept of our gender identity? GRS is often talked about in language that implies it is an absolute end point to transition "and now for the last stage on my journey" etc. etc. will be found littered throughout these forums. Jennifer Boylan's excellent book "She's not there: a life in two genders" ends on her waking up from GRS. Congratulations and well wishes abound when an individual either sets a date or goes in for GRS surgery. We can just about define a date for almost every member on these forums as to when they had GRS. Yet most of the time we don't define an exact date when we go full time, arguably a more important step in the process of gaining social acceptance than surgery. We argue about what is and what is not full time, we almost never argue as to whether orchiectomy or penectomy or vaginoplasty is "really" GRS or not. And I'm certainly not saying we should be arguing the definition of GRS. And I certainly wish anyone well who does get GRS, having had major surgery for other reasons I know what it is like to recover from a significant surgery and it is truly lovely to receive good wishes for your recovery.

So I am curious as to what others think. Do we as individuals and as a community possibly place pressure maybe even subconsciously on ourselves to undergo surgical interventions? If there were fewer societal expectations of external genitalia appearance would we still pursue those interventions? Should we as a community place more emphasis and support for those who are taking important first social steps to transition and providing positive feedback and reinforcement?

[Zooey]

Personally, I think the pressure to have GRS HAS actually been going down lately. I think that progressively more people are getting progressively more comfortable with the idea that your genitals aren't the defining point for your gender and who you are.

Until you find yourself wanting to date an average cis person.

Lots of people are willing to have sex with me, regardless of what's in my underwear, but I've got this stupid conscience that keeps me from taking the vast majority of them up on the deal. Far, far fewer people are willing to consider me as a viable long-term partner.

So, while i feel very little pressure from society writ large to have GRS, my desire to have something even remotely approximating a normal pool of dating options keeps the pressure on.

[pamela7]

So I am curious as to what others think. Do we as individuals and as a community possibly place pressure maybe even subconsciously on ourselves to undergo surgical interventions?

If there were fewer societal expectations of external genitalia appearance would we still pursue those interventions?

Should we as a community place more emphasis and support for those who are taking important first social steps to transition and providing positive feedback and reinforcement?

Without placing pressure on ourselves we won't undergo such ops? Personally, my chronic testicular pain is what is pressuring me - together with my desire to be off my natural T and my desire to grow boobs. I don't see why, if a GG can have breast implants, why I cannot? I do however see that the desire for implants is itself a lack of acceptance of my present body shape.

For most of us TS, I would expect it's entirely personal pressure, and nothing to do with societal expectations. However, please put me right!

Yes, more support for the first steps please. It's daunting enough to admit this to oneself, let alone facing a gauntlet of acceptance from peers further down the road!

[becky77]

Just going to be honest how I feel.

For me GRS is a no brainer I'm fully aware I can never truly escape being Trans but being a woman it's ludicrous and weird to have male genitals. Now because I have such a strong need to get rid of what's to me is just wrong I probably inadvertently put pressure on others.

It's not that I expect other TS to have the surgery, I know some can't medically and some can't financially. But for those who choose not to I really struggle to see why, why would a woman want to keep male parts?

I do my best to accept this in others and I try my best to be understanding but deep down I feel we are not the same. It's not IF they have the parts because that doesn't bother me as I said some are waiting and some can't medically or financially do it but mentally we are on the same page.

If you WANT to keep, LIKE and use those parts (which to me are male) then we are not on the same page.
I hope I don't treat those people differently but I really struggle to see them as fully female.
I've also not spent quality time with someone like that so it's possibly ignorance on my part, I don't know.

I really don't want to offend anyone but I'm being truthful to open up the discussion.

I also feel rather than the pressure to have SRS, I feel the pressure to accept the PC statement that it's not what's between the legs.
Because for me it kinda is otherwise why do we need GRS?

I was TS before going full-time the point to Transition is a) revealing your inner self to the world for authenticity and b) change the body to match.
Why is hair, clothes, HRT, FFS, etc etc OK but GRS is taboo?
FFS is also getting taboo lately.
How soon will it be before people are asking to be accepted as a woman while staying looking like a man?
Honestly I don't know what's right or wrong, how influenced I am to fit in with society, how much is binary.

When do we get to the point where the word Woman or man has no meaning and then what is a TS??
Everyone just becomes part of the Transgender umbrella so gender no longer exists.

[Zooey]

If you WANT to keep, LIKE and use those parts (which to me are male) then we are not on the same page.
I hope I don't treat those people differently but I really struggle to see them as fully female.
I've also not spent quality time with someone like that so it's possibly ignorance on my part, I don't know.

Just to be clear, I WANT the surgery no matter what. I was just talking about whether I felt pressure from the outside to do it.

I also feel rather than the pressure to have SRS, I feel the pressure to accept the PC statement that it's not what's between the legs.
Because for me it kinda is otherwise why do we need GRS?

<snip>

When do we get to the point where the word Woman or man has no meaning and then what is a TS??
Everyone just becomes part of the Transgender umbrella so gender no longer exists.

So, I'm completely fine with accepting people as women without GRS. The same is true for trans men, and not just because their surgical options are so much worse than ours. I struggle more with people who choose not to do HRT (rather than having medical issues preventing it), because at least in my experience hormonal changes have altered so much about my being that I struggle to imagine being on the same page as anybody who runs on testosterone at this point.

The broader issue you brought up, about the dilution of gender, is much more interesting and goes way beyond GRS. As is probably obvious from some of my recent forum activity, I struggle with this a lot, but that's a much bigger discussion that I'm not even sure I can have on this forum without getting burned at the stake, and not entirely unfairly. Stating my opinions on that issue directly is guaranteed to leave a large group of people feeling insulted or dismissed, even though that's not actually my intention. I could do it in Safe Haven, maybe, but it's a far less interesting conversation there because the audience there is actually pretty limited in terms of viewpoint.

[becky77]

So, I'm completely fine with accepting people as women without GRS. The same is true for trans men, and not just because their surgical options are so much worse than ours. I struggle more with people who choose not to do HRT (rather than having medical issues preventing it), because at least in my experience hormonal changes have altered so much about my being that I struggle to imagine being on the same page as anybody who runs on testosterone at this point.

Interesting, yes I think HRT is a game changer especially mentally.
So I'm not misunderstood can I reiterate that I don't have an issue with having the parts especially FtM because the OP is scary.
It's the want to use them like a man (MtF).

[ariannavt]

I can only speak for myself.

While I would like to have GRS, right now it is something that isn't high on my priority list for a number of reasons. I think FFS would top my list because it would help me with daily life, but I still have some time I want to give hormones before making any surgical steps.

GRS Concerns (for me):

• It is a complex surgery, with a long recovery time
• The thought of having to dialate every day seems like a hassle
• I'm married to a wonderful woman who, unfortunately, is straight. We're making it work right now, but the evolution of our relationship has not gotten to the point where GRS wouldn't destroy it
• How people perceive me, and interact with me, is far more important than what sort of bits I have. Most of my dysphoria is not around my genitals.

I've never been pressured by anyone to have GRS, but truthfully I'm early in transition and only part-time. My view on this might change in six months. Who knows. Happily no one has ever asked me, "are you going to have the surgery?" or "what's in your pants?"

[Nigella]

As society we are "conditioned" to accept Penis = Male, Vagina = Female, the genitals are what defines gender, this is dictated at birth when the announcement is made "it's a "boy/girl". This declaration is what "legally" defines where we fit in societies perceptions.

We are only just beginining to understand that gender is not just genitals, but that is only for those who either "know" they are not the gender they were assigned or those who understand the psych of being trans, the rest of joe public will never understand, they cannot accept that gender is not genitals, its just not in within their conditioning.

As to what drove me to SRS, quite simple, my mind could not accept seeing my head attached to a body with a penis. I could look in a mirror and see a male body, penis included, as long as my head was not visible, the male body has never held any revultion for me, the moment my head was included in the image, my mind was revolted at what it saw, a female does not have a penis, that was my social conditioning kicking in.

During the process of discussing SRS I prepared myself, mentally at least, that I may not be able to have this and that I could end up being a "chick with a dick". Initially this screwed with my head, but I have always prepared for the worst in a situation, that way I would never be disappointed.

I also fail to understand those who want to look female, but keep the penis, that is of course, unless, they are going into the trans porn industry.

[Rianna Humble]

I am curious as to what others think. Do we as individuals and as a community possibly place pressure maybe even subconsciously on ourselves to undergo surgical interventions? If there were fewer societal expectations of external genitalia appearance would we still pursue those interventions?

I definitely am not putting pressure on myself or anyone else to "undergo surgical intervention". As a number of members will be aware, I currently have medical barriers to Gender Confirmation Surgery. I am hopeful that I might be able to overcome the medical barriers later this year. However, my reason for needing this surgery have nothing to do with how other people view me. It has everything to do with needing a body that conforms to my gender.

If I were susceptible to outside influence on this matter, I would not have needed to transition in the first place. Having transitioned and having a number of people recently confirm that they had not even realised that I am Trans has not lessened my need to be whole.

Should we as a community place more emphasis and support for those who are taking important first social steps to transition and providing positive feedback and reinforcement?

I seem to have a different approach to support from yours. I don't see cheer-leading as support. To me, constructive feedback is much more important than simply providing positive reinforcement regardless of whether the course of action is advisable. What I see in the TS Forums, is people providing true support and being willing to point out the difficulties that someone transitioning might face as well as expressing concern when we feel that someone's proposed course of action might not be to their best advantage.

I would rather "be there" for someone than cheer them on to destruction.

[PretzelGirl]

First, I think there is a false appearance in this forum as we have a spike in those receiving GRS between the spring and summer. Likely you will see that drop again and I don't expect it to get to higher level and stay there until insurance broadly covers the surgery. Even then, there are some that won't elect it, either for personal reasons or medical reasons.

Also, this group is a window into a subsection of the community. Those that change their lives and can do no more, don't tend to hang out here. Those that are non-conforming are only here in small numbers.

I, like Nigella, don't want to see my body that causes me dysphoria. Dilation may be my price to pay for authenticity, but I am okay with that. But I do support those that choose to not have the surgery. For each of us, we must attack the things that work on our mind the most. For some, it is what we see in the mirror before getting in the shower. For others, it is what other people see. Sometimes, just the effects of hormones makes someone's live manageable. The desired end result is calming the mind.

There is a whole world of "us's" out there and there are no boxes in that group. We will hear more about GRS all the time as that is the toughest healthcare coverage to get and probably the most contentious when discussing. Even then, those getting it will be limited by being medically capable, financially able, and having the desire.

BTW, full time October 2, 2014 6:30 PM. I would probably remember the time of surgery when it comes, but I will be out cold. I do think many of us here announce being full time. But one announcement and it is done. Surgery can bring about more discussions, so it may be perceived as getting more airtime.

[KellyJameson]

Transitioning allows one to experience themselves "as they are"

It is layered and the deeper you are able to penetrate these layers the closer it takes you to experiencing the genuine self.

Some begin to discover truths about themselves through first crossdressing and it is not uncommon for many professional female impersonators to find they are most comfortable living full time as women.

Anyone who as spent time performing drag learns quickly that there are clear differences between the men doing drag and the women doing drag even when the women do not as yet know they are women.

They are called to it for very different reasons. Transitioning is a calling that has its own voice that only a transsexual will hear.

The strength of this calling and the reasons behind the shape this calling takes will decide ones relationship to GRS.

For many it is symbolic, becoming the symbol that they have arrived. For others it is the deepest expression of their innate psychology and they know the discomfort of having lived opposed to their psychology.

For them living with a penis (MtF) is to live a falsehood that betrays the true self. They must pursue GRS to delve into the deepest layer so as to experience the deepest sense and expression of the self.

GRS gives voice to their soul and spirit.

For them anything less is to live as an aberration when living anything less than the true expression of how one knows themselves to be "as what they fundamentally are" is unnatural so experienced as aberrant.

For them it can be difficult to understand others who have no interest in GRS yet "identify" as women

[Marcelle]

Hmmm . . . . . . I guess I am struggling on how to respond to this post as I represent that minority and from what I am reading may appear to be less authentic in the eyes of others.

Firstly, I think we can all agree that transition is hard irrespective of which path you take. Once you are out in the world living and working as a woman, there is not going back, the bell is rung and now you have to deal with the looks, stares, giggles, guffaws and people who keep telling you that you are not a woman . . . just a guy who thinks he is a woman. We can also all agree that gender dysphoria is no easy road and if you don't take steps to quell the demons in whatever way you have to, some nasty self-destructive behavior can ensue. This could be through surgical or hormonal intervention or just being able to be who you need to be on a daily basis irrespective of what others think of you. Face it folks that is the nature of gender dysphoria . . . you look in the mirror and you see what you are not and know what you need to do to correct that. If it is SRS, FFS, BA or HRT then that is what you need and that is no easy row to hoe. However does that make you more of a woman than someone who choses not to follow your path? IMHO . . . no. The one thing I have learned here is that each person's transition is different. Some choose to go all the way and others choose to live as the woman they are without surgical or even hormonal intervention. It is all about defining who they are in their own eyes. Some here may not understand that and believe that the physical defines the person but then again many cis people feel the same way so you are in good company . . . I guess?

To answer the OP, I don't feel a pressure externally or internally to move forward from where I am. I am a woman, will always see myself as a woman and anyone can argue that point into oblivion and you will not convince me otherwise anymore than I can convince you that you are anything other than you say you are.

Just going to be honest how I feel.

. . . It's not that I expect other TS to have the surgery, I know some can't medically and some can't financially. But for those who choose not to I really struggle to see why, why would a woman want to keep male parts?

I do my best to accept this in others and I try my best to be understanding but deep down I feel we are not the same. It's not IF they have the parts because that doesn't bother me as I said some are waiting and some can't medically or financially do it but mentally we are on the same page.

If you WANT to keep, LIKE and use those parts (which to me are male) then we are not on the same page.
I hope I don't treat those people differently but I really struggle to see them as fully female.
I've also not spent quality time with someone like that so it's possibly ignorance on my part, I don't know.

I really don't want to offend anyone but I'm being truthful to open up the discussion.

Becky . . . to be honest . . . while I understand and respect your view but, since you opened up your opinion for discussion . . . I was very offended.

On one hand you state you don't expect other TS folk to have SRS with the caveat " that is okay for medical or financial reasons". Yet if someone chooses not to proceed out of personal choice that lessens their claim to being a woman in your eyes? It is well known on this site that I have chosen not to pursue GRS, FFS, BA or HRT. Why? Because that is the depth of my dysphoria in that I don't feel what nature has given me defines who I am as a person. You may not agree . . . but I am a woman. So nature saw fit to give me male physiology and unfortunately a brain wired as a woman. Does this mean I can not longer claim that I am trans because I choose not alter my current physiology through surgical or hormonal means? I suppose I could go the distance but I don't feel the need to do so because I know who I am . . . a woman. This is the same diatribe I get from cis women who belittle me for being trans because I will never truly be a woman, I will never give birth or never menstruate. Goodness, it is hard enough to go to work each day and be accepted as a person vice a curiosity and now I have to worry about whether I am trans enough to be accepted by my own community?

Is this some sort of . . . you are not truly ready to commit until you go the distance and until you take that final step you can just go back to being a dude? Personally I try not to confuse gender identity with physical sex which most cis folks who don't get us do on a daily basis . . . Well you obviously can't be a woman because you have a penis

So, I'm completely fine with accepting people as women without GRS . . . I struggle more with people who choose not to do HRT (rather than having medical issues preventing it), because at least in my experience hormonal changes have altered so much about my being that I struggle to imagine being on the same page as anybody who runs on testosterone at this point.

The broader issue you brought up, about the dilution of gender, is much more interesting and goes way beyond GRS.

Hi Zooey,

So be clear . . . because I choose not to undergo HRT I am what . . . Faking it? A poser? Not a woman?. So women are defined by their hormones, their physiology . . . what? Geesh, by this argument alone, a CDer who goes on HRT to calm the demons can claim the title of "woman" even if they are deep in the closet. Dilution of gender . . . what does that even mean? Am I to assume that folks like myself are all of sudden placing the purity of "male" and "female" in jeopardy? Goodness, this sounds like the same argument I had with an individual at work who said I was making mockery of human life by pretending be who I was not and eroding the natural order of male and female.

Marcelle

[becky77]

Marcelle I like you and I was worried I would offend but I did say I would be truthful.
I'd like to think I have always been respectful of you because I admire what you are doing.

I certainly don't see you as lesser I just don't understand your perspective, for a time you tried to convince us you were gender fluid now TS it's irrelevant because I like you as a person but that doesn't change the fact that I don't get it.

Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of meeting you in person to understand.
You maybe in my fav book and in my chapter but still we are not on the same page, that doesn't have to be a negative just that we differ in this.

I can't help think 'How can you not want an end to testosterone'?

[Zooey]

So be clear . . . because I choose not to undergo HRT I am what . . . Faking it? A poser? Not a woman?. So women are defined by their hormones, their physiology . . . what? Geesh, by this argument alone, a CDer who goes on HRT to calm the demons can claim the title of "woman" even if they are deep in the closet. Dilution of gender . . . what does that even mean? Am I to assume that folks like myself are all of sudden placing the purity of "male" and "female" in jeopardy? Goodness, this sounds like the same argument I had with an individual at work who said I was making mockery of human life by pretending be who I was not and eroding the natural order of male and female.

Not at all.

As a matter of fact, I respect the hell out of you. I said I struggle with it, and that's completely true in the abstract. YOU as a person I do not struggle with at all. We're different in some ways, and I can't relate to your motivations for not going through HRT. We're more similar than we are different though. I can and do relate to the things you say and the way you say them. I don't see you as anything other than a woman.

Real individuals are far easier to understand than abstract concepts, and knowing somebody can transcend a belief. Some of my female friends still struggle to understand trans women in general, despite very visibly having no problem with me. It's the whole, "Well you're okay, but I dunno" thing.

I don't feel great about the things I struggle with, much less admitting them. I'm genuinely sorry that you felt attacked, because I think you're fantastic, and a much braver person than I am (in a multitude of ways).

[Marcelle]

Becky / Zooey,

Just be clear . . . I respect both you immensely and if I ever have the opportunity to meet you both some day . . . it would be my pleasure.

I guess I was just put off because nobody ever questions someone's desire to "go the distance" to quell the demons. But there tends to be a covert "questioning" of those who choose not to. Which IMO creates a tier system with GRS at the pinnacle.

I have no explanation as to why I don't feel the need. I like my body, I've had it for 52 years and I know how it responds to exercise, what works, what doesn't . . . it is mine and it is my cross to bear the same way my cis female friends lament the genetic hand they were dealt. When I wake up in the morning, get ready and eventually am walking from my car to work, I feel alive/authentic for the first time in my life . . . every step I take makes me smile, makes me happy because I am being who I was meant to be . . . a woman. It has nothing to do with my genetics, my physiology or my hormones . . . it is about being me.

Becky . . . I know it was not meant the way you stated . . . but I am not trying to convince anyone I am TS because I don't require any validation from anyone. I know who I am and that is all that really matters to me .

Cheers

Marcelle

[pamela7]

Marcelle,
Thank you for choosing to keep your body as it is, and representing this way of expressing your womanhood. It helps to clarify that it is the self's gender identity, not the physicality. Dysphoria certainly does not appear to have universal expression, it seems unique to each of us, and metaphysical pain is so hard for others to empathise or understand. I'm happy knowing i'm female on the inside, awaiting a long-term redress through the system here. I don't conform to expected "tranny" presentation most of the time; who cares? We are here to help eachother, that's the purpose here, right?

xxx

[Badtranny]

Oh how I love this topic.

This is something I don't talk about much in my life because I don't get to hang out with Trans people very much. When I'm with my people either trans or queer, I do not mind talking about my vestigial appendage. I'm not ashamed of it, or otherwise tortured by it. On the contrary, I'm actually kind of proud of it because it's the only thing left that identifies me as something other than a hetero white chick.

I've had so many procedures done to my face and body that even when I try to look like a dude, I don't look like a dude anymore. I have no more issues with passing except for the fact that I knew way too many people for the first 45 years of my life, and I think I sound like a dude on the phone. (got sir'd just the other day in fact)

One of the procedures was an orchiectomy back in 2012 (name change in July 2012) and a follow up to remove the rest of the scrotum in 2015. I now have no "cosmetic issues" in clothes and, that pretty much completes my transition down there. I will never get the vagina installed. My penis never defined me, and never particularly concerned me. I had a lot of issues related to GD for sure, but for some reason the pickle was never a problem. I had it. I got over it.

For those who would tell me that I am "not a real woman" I would say. So what? I was born looking like a dude. I was raised as a dude, and I tried like hell to be a dude for most of my life. I was pretty good at it for the most part. My transition does not represent a failure to be a man. It represents the courage to be myself. To be free. To dance to the beat of my very own drum. Today I'm accepted as a woman by everyone except those who knew me before. I didn't think it was ever gonna be possible but my old life is really fading away and my new life is becoming the new normal. Those people who would protest my womanhood don't get the opportunity simply because they don't know. The irony is, I could go to the bathroom in the Carolinas without incident, while some of my sisters who have had GRS might cause a bit of a stir.

So I'm not real in the sense that I was born with a vagina, but I know a few trans men who might punch you in the face if you were to start laying out your flawless logic for them.

Trans people who know me, know that I am with penis, because I want them to know. I think it's important that I make a stand because trans people need to know that I exist, and I'm not afraid. I have been told by a trans woman that I know very well that she might have not gone all the way if she would have had the courage to stand up to the crowd. Do you understand that? This poor gal had GRS because she didn't want to be derided or dismissed as a woman. She's happy as far as I know, but the very idea that somebody would feel peer pressure in their transition just irritates me.

My transition was about being finally free. No more pressure to conform, or pretend. I stood up to the world and said your gender binary means nothing to me and I will decide who I am from now on. I will no longer be defined by my birth or my circumstances. I'm not gonna lie and say it was easy or fun. It was brutal. It was very expensive both emotionally and financially and I can't say I would do it again, but it is DONE and I have earned my freedom. I will be damned if I'm going to let anybody tell me that I'm doing it wrong. Listen to me closely; I don't care what you think about me. Your opinions about my life are of no more concern to me than a warm breeze. You don't get a vote.

The religious people can hate me and the trans people can hate me, because my very existence is a challenge to their conforming narrative. I was born different, and I spent a lifetime wishing it wasn't so. But I AM different. I have finally come to accept myself for who I am and let me tell you something ladies and gents, I won't go back into hiding, and I won't be bullied into silence. The Christians can beat me and the trans crowd can shun me, but at least they'll be doing it to ME, and not some fake person I'm trying to pretend to be.

[pamela7]

Phew Melissa, so i won't be the only one!!!

[Barbara Dugan]

Wow, I am going to frame Melissa's post and hang it on the wall...she always been my Hero.
I am still on my early stages of transition I haven't made a decision yet but don't feel any pressure to do it yet.

[Eringirl]

Okay, do I ever feel like the fool. I haven't given this very much thought. For me, this was a "no brainer" decision. There was no external pressures. Either from my trans world or CIS world. It took me about 2 nano seconds to make the decision. That particular physical attribute is a HUGE contributor to my GD. So deciding that I would pursue the Gender Confirmation Surgery took no time to decide. I NEED to have it done. The discussions with my gender therapist and endocrinologist were extremely short. They asked, I answered, gave my reasons, they agreed, and on to the next topic. That is not to say I haven't done my research. I am fully aware of the risks, recovery issues, etc. This is the right thing for me. But all of this is just my experience/thoughts relevant to my situation. Everyone dances to a different drummer, but we are all dancing....

As for those that decide not to do it, more power to them. There are several transwomen in my local support group who, for whatever reason, have not opted for the surgery. They are full time 24/7 and doing just fine. Certainly no pressure from within the group that I am aware of.

[jentay1367]

My feelings mirror Erin's. I can't imagine not doing it. It's gotta go. I don't feel like not doing it defines anything about the person. In my mind, you either are or aren't a Woman. But like Erin, that particular bit is one of my biggest dysphoric problems. Frankly, if not for the WPATH, I'd probably make it my priority since I'm more afraid of the negative health effects of the large amounts of estradiol and spiro required to feminize. I'd much rather give them all the material they need to create my vulva than leave them with the shrunken up remnant they have to work with after 2 years of hormone therapy as well as the problems that can arise with heart, liver and kidneys. Especially given my age. I understand their reasoning, but I know where I'm heading and would prefer to choose my own path. Is what it is though, and we do what we have to do. Lisa

[LeaP]

So I am curious as to what others think. Do we as individuals and as a community possibly place pressure maybe even subconsciously on ourselves to undergo surgical interventions? If there were fewer societal expectations of external genitalia appearance would we still pursue those interventions? Should we as a community place more emphasis and support for those who are taking important first social steps to transition and providing positive feedback and reinforcement?

The questions aren't controversial. They are conventional, no offense intended.

One has to acknowledge not just social "pressure," but that we only exist in society. It's impossible to ignore its effects. It's also unnecessary, not just because we want and need to exist socially, but because trans people have always existed in every culture, in all times. The expression may differ, but the need does not.

SRS is only new in the sense of its surgical sophistication. It has also always existed, even if as crude as hacking off one's genitals with a sharp piece of rock. That the need for it may be independent of social norms is evident from those who exhibit it young, even before understanding physical differences. Social factors may increase movement toward SRS in some. I would think avoiding certain problems would be a stronger motivator than pressure per se.

I agree with Rianna regarding support.

Cross-sex expression need is obviously, screamingly diverse. Though not all are rooted in physical development issues (e.g., the partial or full cross-sex development of brain structures), it's likely that there are variations here as well, whether of type or degree.

Taking my own path here, I'd differentiate female from woman. No MtF is fully female and not all are women. It's not up to me to judge who is and who is not. I will accept anyone as a woman who sincerely states they are and has minimally socially transitioned, HRT or not. Anyone else, including those in transition (like me) I would have to consider living a variation of gender variance. I stand with several others, however, in needing physical change, as I'm nearing on 4 years on HRT, and I also do not truly understand those who do not, other than in the abstract. Forget the details.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I dont think my feeling of wanting to be "just like the other girls" is any different than any other girl..

in the end the procedures we endure are personal choices to express ourselves...

I surely pressured myself... i was hugely focused on my appearance and my surgery... but if i felt any outside pressure at all, it was a "are you sure you want to do this??" type of thing..

[LeaP]

... but if i felt any outside pressure at all, it was a "are you sure you want to do this??" type of thing..

Oh.

THAT.

(Are we at crush depth yet?)

[morgan pure]

Do we pressure ourselves to conform to classical physical expectations of womanhood?

Absolutely we do.