Bathrooms. No political content.

[I Am Paula]

I was at the International Day against Homophobia, and Transphobia event, and concert in London, Ontario on Monday.
I was so pleased to see that the ALL GENDERS bathrooms worked flawlessly. Many people went into one, backed out and looked at the sign on the door, then shrugged. Big deal, we can all pee together in perfect harmony. This was an all ages event, so yes, young girls and boys used the same facility. All bodily functions take place behind closed stall doors...what's the big deal?

[pamela7]

and that simple demo is great. i suspect people fear more the rarely-used restroom.

[LeaP]

It shouldn't be a big deal. One side benefit never mentioned is that it would likely inhibit the cruising and other shady behavior that occurs in some men-only restrooms. More complaints = more arrests = diminishing problem. I do think you would have to be prepared for that to happen for a while, however.

I would still PREFER sex-segregated restrooms in most of the US for the time being, however. And in those, I'm also of the opinion that only GGs and TS should be allowed. IDs and panty checks? That concern has some validity but is mostly a red herring. Many have pointed out that trans women have been using the ladies' facilities forever with few issues. It is also true that GGs get challenged once in a while (often butch women). They show ID if the authorities are called. Now I understand the issues with trans people's IDs in the US, how they intersect with jurisdictional issues, medical history, even definitions. But I think those are solvable ... at least to the satisfaction of the majority of TS.

Finally, I don't support non-TS "transgender" access to opposite sex, sex-segregated restrooms. As I've put it before, men dressed as women have a different issue, which is mens room safety. A trans woman's access to a ladies restroom is a civil rights issue as well as a safety issue.

[Lauri K]

I am running low on keyboard fluid, so I won't say much here.

But I am tired of hearing a lack of support for "men dressed as women" otherwise known as crossdressers.

Is not their safety important too ?

Alternatively I ask why I rarely if ever hear about anyone saying they do not support "women dressed as men" using the bath room. No ones seems to care about that.

Interestingly enough though I feel like the male population is so perverted in general terms that they think every trans person is also. So they think they need to fight us on the right to use the facility that aligns with our identity.

[becky77]

I can see arguments for both sides but ultimately the nasty prejudice is abhorrent.

What harm is a Crossdresser really doing using toilets that have individual cubicles?

I mean really how rare is it that a pervert crossdresses to abuse the situation? And even if they did it's highly unlikely they are actually Transgender.
If someone is caught in any toilet doing something unsavory they should be dealt with for the crime alone.

It's like burning a house full of people down to kill a spider, ridiculous overreaction that nothing good can come of.

What's more dangerous to children the harmless Trans person who needs to pee or the Neanderthal thug waiting outside to hurt people with righteous ignorance?

[I Am Paula]

The CD, vs. TS in the washroom debate is simple. Like my original post, just open the washrooms to whomever needs them.
Men, women, Tg, and plushies can all pee in the same place.

[becky77]

If this was changing rooms I may have a different opinion.

But the majority of people use a bathroom because they need a toilet, if the world was a better place there just might be a genderless loo but there isn't typically.
So a Trans person needs to go to the toilet where do they go??

Realistically if a TG is in danger of being abused using a female toilet is using a male toilet safer? I really don't think so, there is almost no choice other than basically we don't want you to exist at all.

And were do FtM fit in with this idiocy?

[LeaP]

Becky, the harm isn't in CDs using the ladies per se (my opinion, others disagree). It's that it obscures the rights issue for TS - who really DON'T have an alternative. To my thinking, it one of the myriad ways that CDs use TS issues to their benefit and our detriment. Most people have no issue with actual trans women in ladies rooms. They do with men. It's that simple. Mixing them takes a tiny issue to a big one.

[Sallee]

basically the whole discussion is a diversion from real issues. When it comes to peeing most don't care just go get it done and leave. Oh put the seat down when done

[Rogina B]

Just curious Lea P...How would a "TS"[T serious] stand out from a CD ? Under the quick inspection of a self appointed lady's room gender cop? Impossible ! There has never been an incident,so why the fear?

[Megan G]

I have to agree with Lea on this one, they are two completely separate issues. Since everyone's Facebook feed is filled with these stories of late my wife and I have discussed this issue quite a few times and it has been a topic of conversation when friends are over. When explained to them the difference between a male identified CD and a Female identified TS all of them were quick to say "yes you belong in the womens washroom" but were very leary to give me there thoughts on a male identified CD'er and in the end they all thought that no matter how they are dressed they should be in the mens room.

[LeaP]

Rogina, I have no desire to explain others' fears.

Many CDs wouldn't stand out. No challenge, no problem.

As far as the unofficial potty police, they aren't going away any sooner than internet trolls. They are a problem for ANYONE with passing issues, even if they have legal access, GGs included, because they can be intimidating. The actual problem when the real police are called is ID. As I said before, a challenged, butch GG shows her ID and goes about her business (pun intended). Don't have the right gender marker on your ID? That leads to ejection, harassment, embarrassment, being outed, possibly arrest and possibly being charged. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the pressure to accomodate CD desire for access to women's spaces prevents TS need for access, they can be dealt with however the law allows. This is a case where the additional numbers of advocates for "our" rights are hurting, not helping.

[Lauri K]

Civil rights are needed because of safety / discrimination for all of us under the minority term Transgender

I said it months ago, only a few listened others laughed it off.........the threat is real and in our faces

If we are standing united as a community under the T umbrella we have to stop all this non sense of I believe you can go to the bathroom because you identify as X and these folks over here should not because they are dressed as X but are really something else and maybe they should do x or x because I think XX or XX

Really why as a community are we not better aligned I have to ask ?

Which begs a question once asked here in a thread "Am I trans enough" Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat THE

Think long and hard here people, as a community our rights are on the line here, let's get aligned on the issue and be the voice of intelligence

[LeaP]

Sorry, Lauri, I'm not buying. I'm not part of any transgender community and don't believe one exists in any meaningful way to most TS. In the public eye, most people understand the term to mean transsexuals anyway.

I agree that there IS a safety issue for male CDs using men's restrooms. A serious one. There is even a civil rights issue on the basis of stereotyping. A male CD getting beaten to a pulp in the men's room has been targeted on that basis - that is, a stereotype-based form of male discrimination. They need to find a solution to that problem. And I'd be happy to support that solution ... as long as it solves it in the men's room.

I won't repeat my take on the happy family numbers argument. You can re-read it.

[PretzelGirl]

I think using as you identify with a long term objective of restrooms having no classification is the only way to make it work. What about Intersex people? What about non-conforming? What is the difference between a CD and someone in early transition? Or early transition and done and over with? Passing privilege is king and the rest is up in the air. I don't know, maybe I have had inclusion beat into my head too much, but I just don't see a way to effectively delineate any "rules" that draw boundaries around who can, so having no boundaries would be the most effective path.

[grace7777]

I started a temporary job assignment and at the place I am working the restrooms are single user with no gender classification. To me this is a great solution to restroom problems, and hope more places will follow this concept.

[Badtranny]

This is a tough issue for me because I know for a fact that there are "recreational" users of ladies spaces. I know this because I read it here. Hell it's a freakin' right of passage on the other side of this forum. I have read too many reports to count of a CD going into ladies spaces and being sexually aroused by the experience. Are we going to pretend that those thoughts have never been posted here? I'm not real big on pretending, so let's just be honest and all agree that this is A reality if not THE reality.

Now that we've acknowledged that, I don't know what we do about it. There is no discernible physical difference between a CD and the early days of a transitioning TS woman, so where's the line?

My journey took me through the whole bathroom experience. From being a little too masc for the ladies room to being a little too fem for the men's room. It's a long process and I never had a problem, though I definitely got a few looks in the early days.

I think the best thing is probably to just chill and let people do what they need to do. There hasn't been a problem, and there probably won't be but I sure am glad this bathroom issue wasn't so hot back in 2009, 2010, 2011.

[becky77]

Melissa I agree with you on the 'Recreational' use but I think that should be dealt with differently.
If caught that person should be treated like a pervert because that's what they are, regardless of Trans status.
A blanket ban to stop a few bad eggs just isn't the answer.

Look I read some shocking stuff on the CD forum some of these guys are more sexist and misogynistic than any guy I typically know who is Cis and I don't want them using my facilities either. However the larger percentage are using the toilet only for one reason and are respectful, normally the type of CD that needs to use the female bathroom has made every effort to pass or blend.

We could debate the finer issues of identity but the reality is most people just can't tell the difference between a CD or TS if they even notice it's not a woman in the first place.
So we are only really talking about those who have difficulty passing, of those a scheme to show your ID would see non-passing TS facing constant discrimination and CD having to use the male toilet which let's be honest would be a disaster.

In every walk of life there are people that abuse trust, but before these laws came into place worldwide there has been very little issue with someone using the toilet they are presenting as.

What I do disagree with is this idea we should stand united under the T umbrella. Which basically means 'we are all in this together except we can't come out of the closet so you TS lot stand up for us too!'
I find it hard to care about the Trans rights of someone who hasn't even told their wife and who fails to even have the decency to see me as a woman.

For those CD who are out and doing their thing as long as they are respectful I want to see them safe.

[Megan G]

There is no discernible physical difference between a CD and the early days of a transitioning TS woman, so where's the line?.

That's true, and almost impossible to draw a line on who is and who is not allowed to use a sex segregated restroom. If this issue was not so polarized right now and in everyone's faces my thoughts on this would most likely be different but as it is we are walking a very fine line right now.

Most of the policies that are written right now specifically state that you (the trans person) are welcome to use the facility that matches your gender identity. To me that is pretty straight forward.. If you identify as a man use the men's, if you identify as a woman use the woman's. No where does it say that if you are wearing makeup and a dress it's ok to use the woman's regardless of your gender identity.

But as mentioned there is no way to tell the difference between a cd and an early transitioning TS so yes a CD can very easily say I identify as female and go about their business.

What I worry about is if Bob, who identifies as a male CD'er who on rare occasions goes out dressed gets seen going into a woman's washroom. Most people know him as Bob, the hard core masculine guy, but one day they see him in a dress going into the washroom. The problem is this will just fuel the other sides fear, about men going into women's spaces..

I'm all for Cd'ers safety when it comes to rest rooms and stuff like that but as Lea said thier issue is not the same as ours.. The solution is to advocate for all gender or unisex bathrooms so the CD'er has a safe place.

[morgan pure]

I have never read of a single verified incidence of so-called "recreational" CD or TS bathroom use. No child has ever been molested by a CD or TS in a women's lavatory. None.

But hundreds of trans- and cross-dressing people have been harassed and physically attacked in men's rooms.

[pamela7]

One point is that the normals fear that CD folk are perverts, as they used to/probably still do feel LBG people are. Then they worry that allowing the legal choice of restroom of preference allows perverts to then crossdress to gain access to bathrooms. It's a fallacy or it would already have happened. Those kinds of wolves don't wear our kind of sheeps clothing.

[Sara Jessica]

Sorry, Lauri, I'm not buying. I'm not part of any transgender community and don't believe one exists in any meaningful way to most TS. In the public eye, most people understand the term to mean transsexuals anyway.

And has been said, we aren't wearing labels which identify our respective species of trans. The community you eschew is expressed in a variety of ways which the Muggles simply have little or no understanding of when it comes to discerning the differences, let along knowing them when they see them. Heck, even we cannot recognize such differences when we see them anywhere near 100% certainty and we are all in the know, well educated on our differences.

Not to mention that the separation that is being described hurts those on the TS path who may not enjoy passing privilege, particularly those who are not even remotely close to being perceived by others as anything but trans at best.

I agree that there IS a safety issue for male CDs using men's restrooms. A serious one. There is even a civil rights issue on the basis of stereotyping. A male CD getting beaten to a pulp in the men's room has been targeted on that basis - that is, a stereotype-based form of male discrimination. They need to find a solution to that problem. And I'd be happy to support that solution ... as long as it solves it in the men's room.

What about the non-transitioning-TS-who-expresses-herself-part-time-to-the-outside-world (moi?)???

While I am not wearing that label, others have perceived me as a TS, as a CD and for all I know, even a woman at times (gasp!). The reality is somewhere in amongst all of that fray. The issue at hand is pegged to gender identity. I guess I pass that smell test. I agree that this whole thing is not particularly about me, even though it is...personally. Until we start checking one's "papers" or doing a visual inspection prior to using the restroom, it'll be a cold day in you know where before I ever set foot into a men's room while presenting as a female.

Anyone who is trans needs to be especially careful in this day and age. And anyone who is a part timer who treats a visit to the women's restroom as a lark, rite of passage, or worse is an absolute idiot who risks damage to all of us as this mess is sorted out.

I think the best thing is probably to just chill and let people do what they need to do. There hasn't been a problem, and there probably won't be...

Thank you!

For those CD who are out and doing their thing as long as they are respectful I want to see them safe.

And thank you!!!

[I Am Paula]

A whole thread devoted to who is CD, and who is TS...again. Funny, it didn't start that way.
I seems only Sue, and I get the point of the OT.
There are signs on washroom doors saying male and female, or little pictograms.
Remove them.
Put up a sign that says washroom.

[Barbara Dugan]

I have to be honest that I have some anxiety every time I enter a ladies bathroom,now with all this current issue and media exposure I feel even more anxiety and fear that something bad my happen, especially when I am out and about with my partner because I know he will defend and protect me but things can get out of hand.There is no other option because when you need to go you got to go and more so with all the diuretic I take.

[jentay1367]

Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
There is no discernible physical difference between a CD and the early days of a transitioning TS woman, so where's the line?.

Well.....obviously it would be quite easy to have TS folks carry a letter from their Therapist with a seal of some sort that is universally recognizable and the protections that would go with carrying that letter. This takes care of those who identify as Women but may not yet have the plumbing. But it does nothing for the cross-dresser who needs to pee and has every much a right to exist and pee in safety as anyone else. Really.....it's just peeing and crapping. Dogs do it in the street. I personally think it's time to do away with gendered toilets. If you're really worried about your child, escort them in and out.
This really does seem like a political football and an attempt to find an answer for a question that wasn't necessary to ask.