Things men (gay or straight) will never understand

[ariannavt]

LOL

In what world does a closet case have any advice to give a fully transitioned postie about life?

Only on the internet.

In some cases it takes someone looking at things with an outside perspective. It's hard to see that the earth is round when you're living on it, but it's pretty straight-forward when you see it from space.

[Zooey]

Outside perspectives can be valuable, from the right source, but I think opinions on living life as a woman coming from men (especially those who live in a small wooden box of their own making) are anything but valuable.

I know the fear Lori is talking about very well, and a few trans-specific issues aside it's something most women share to some extent. Men who dismiss it merely perpetuate it.

I second (seventh?) the advice to make friends with more women (cis or trans), but preferably those who largely exist outside "the community". It's not because the community is bad, but rather because I think you spent a lot of time adrift in it and you're dependent on that scene. Without it, you sound a bit shut down.

Don't live in just one community if you can help it. Diversify your friend portfolio, and you may experience losses but you'll never be broke. Don't go out with "friends" to deal with fear. Make friends you want to be spending time with, and who make you smile to the point that fear isn't on your radar.

[Eryn]

Good ideas are good regardless of their source. Attacking the source is a weak counter-argument.

Back to topic: Although by the standards of some I am unworthy because I'm not officially out at work (co-workers know, but I still go by my male name) I am also wrestling with the "second transition" (trans to woman) in the other venues of my life.

So, I live three lives. Male (sort of), trans (among those who know), and female everywhere else. My next step is abandoning the male vestige of my existence which will leave trans and female. I'll probably never shake being trans completely as I have a number of good friends who have stood by me and I'm not willing to sacrifice them for purity's sake. I'll just blend it all together as best I can.

Life is much easier if one accepts a certain level of imperfection.

[flatlander_48]

Anyway, I have sat at home and I find that my male friends cannot grasp why I won't go out on a weekend night alone. They don't "get it" because as men, they CAN just waltz into a bar and either be accepted or they can defend themselves if a confrontation occurs.

That has never been the case for me. I don't just go to any joint and presentation has nothing to do with it. I've never been that imposing physically and as I've had arthritis since childhood, I don't have the strength and dexterity that one would expect, on average. I would not go into places with a lot of pickups or motorcycles in the parking lot, even if their reputation was relatively benign. I also wouldn't go near a place that had even a hint of a Confederate flag. So sure, I could butch up to a degree, but it wouldn't be enough given the circumstances. So the things that I would do and the places I would go not dressed are not that much different from times when dressed.

However, in the best sense, Change represents Opportunity. It creates the possibility to retool things that you didn't like or were not working out like you thought. So the thing is, what might fit into those categories for you? Be bold. Remember this is a One Way, One Time trip. You don't get extra points for arriving at The Pearly Gates in Like New condition...

DeeAnn

[Brooklyn]

I'm confused. How does one stop being trans? I guess you can stop hanging with LGBT people, but you're still transgender the rest of your time here on planet Earth. And I agree with Zooey - if you haven't transitioned yet, then you're really just speculating about what it's like to be a woman. Look at the title of the thread, for goodness sakes. It's really dangerous out there for trans-women especially - no way I'd go out at night alone. Cis women don't even do that.

[Eryn]

Ashley, how can you know what it's like to be a woman if you are trans?

Answer: if one is perceived as a woman, one will be treated as such.

It doesn't matter if one is "fully transitioned" or not. The non-trans world doesn't care.

[Rianna Humble]

Eryn, you are just trying to muddy the waters regarding people's reactions to "advice" by someone who stands no chance of being

perceived as a woman

because they don't venture out of their closet.

Lori is absolutely right that male friends, be they gay, straight or bi don't generally understand that a woman still can't go out to bars on her own in the vast majority of places. That's what this thread is about, not whether you are in part-time transition or not.

[Georgette_USA]

Again I am in a minority here.

When younger my partner and I would go to many clubs together, some LGBT mostly not. We moved to the Suburbs in 1983, and had NO contact with what little there was of a Trans community. We never thought of ourselves as Trans, just two aging women. Over time I got used to going many places by myself. Always vigilant of what type of clubs and such. Now I am alone and have re-joined the Trans community. I go with some friends to both LGBT and some not type clubs. I still go by myself sometimes to non LGBT clubs, when I want to be just treated as a single women. Love to just chat with the men and women, about anything and everything. Good time is just after people are done with work and relaxing before going home.

The biggest thing as others have said is to be careful with where you go. I don't go to what would be just a bar. Prefer places that have a bar and eating/dancing areas.

I know other single women that go places by oneself all the time. In the LGBT clubs the men and women see nothing weird for single women to be out.

[PretzelGirl]

No no no no! I am almost single. I am almost post-op. I do not give advice on dating or how to do anything related to being post-op because I do not have that experience. That's it. There is a variable here for Lori and that is being full time but having a past that you have to decide whether to divulge or not. if you haven't transitioned and been out dating, you only have speculation and not knowledge.

Ashley, how can you know what it's like to be a woman if you are trans?

Eryn, I AM a woman! You say you want to get away from being trans but you never will if you don't see this truth.

Answer: if one is perceived as a woman, one will be treated as such.

It doesn't matter if one is "fully transitioned" or not. The non-trans world doesn't care.

The non-trans world does care. Whether we have passing privilege or not is about not recognizing us as women. If a person is lauded for "Passing", that means they are able to be viewed as a "woman" and not trans creating a social ladder difference. If they don't pass, then they are trans and less than a woman in some eyes. It is something that needs to change because we are women no matter how we appear, but society needs an education here. Anyone who doesn't agree isn't watching women being accosted in the women's restrooms.

[Teresa]

I'm going to agree with Deborah , her comments about losing the tranny label, find new ground new interests, get accepted as the person you've become not the person you were. Some of the problem could be meeting old friends you know, in your mind that they half think of you as the person you were and you're anticipating that.
It doesn't matter what persuasion they are they will not think of you as the new person you thought you would be.

I'm going to give the example of my social group again, I have never met any of them before and I only know them dressed , I don't know where they are on the transition road, so the only way I can treat them is as equals.
You need situations where you start on equal terms to begin to lose the tranny label .

Sometimes I think we need to look beyond the segregation idea, there are ways to integrate we just have to find them.

[Lorileah]

points I want to address:

"You will always be trans..." While that may be a truism, it severely limits my life. You see, in many parts of the world, I would be considered "Not" a woman even though I have all the parts now (well except ovaries, they were add-ons and I don't really want to end up like the Danish Girl). No, honestly proclaiming that I am trans forever, while I would and will love to help the community, restricts a lot of social life.


"Leaving everyone behind and starting over" sounds like I have been banned or outcast. At 60 years old, you don't just start over. You don't have time. And even if I did, where? Things I do I won't change (I like drinking and music and academic stuff) so now I go to a bar, alone, even in a good area, I won't get much interaction. Curiosity maybe but I have tried this and while having an empty bar stool on either side of me is good for comfort, it isn't much fun. When someone does sit next to me they turn the back toward me.. Music...I love music but being alone at any concert pales to being with people. Here we have "meet ups" I have been to those and it is so sad to seethe average woman ignored while the 20 something woman gets three or four guys attention. They go home alone and always say the same thing "It was fun but I don't think I will be back"


Things seem worse now with the political/social climate. Whereas a few years I was ignored, now I am seen and glared at. Sort of like a gorilla in an exhibit where no one really KNOWS my intent.

But I am new to this. I am losing friends everyday because I no longer feel the need to play the trans. If and when I do go with them, I enjoy the company but I keep getting isolated as the TS (not male, not female not CD not DQ). I will get new friends I am sure because while 7 years ago I didn't think about my life situation (which had changed immensely) things sort of came together. They will or they won't. All I know is that I am now on the margin (I wasn't then I was an available man who played manly games like golf). I have my music, let's see where that goes.

[Starling]

I hope this bathroom s***storm blows away after the election. Previous wedge issues have rapidly dissipated, after they outlived their usefulness. Fingers crossed.

Lallie

[flatlander_48]

S:

I don't think so. The difference is that there are laws on the books. In Charlotte, for example, the only way they could go forward again would be if HB2 were removed or greatly changed. If HB2 is ruled unconstitutional, that would take of it, but who knows how long that will take.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Where to go when alone? Coffee shops! There are lots of Starbucks in Denver. Why don't you pick one and just become a regular. Bring a book or a laptop. Hopefully, eventually you'll get to know the other regulars, if only to chat with while you're there. This is how I met my SO.

Also, didn't you used to sing Karaoke in a bar where you knew everyone? Do you still have friends who go there?

As to going to any place alone at our age (bar, coffee place, etc) and being ignored, welcome to the club. Middle aged and older women tend to become invisible. This is why we find a small group of friends our age to do things with ... most of my outings with my friends involve having a good ol' gabfest over lunch or dinner.

[GaleWarning]

Lori, I am a couple of years older than you. I came to the UK (the third country that I have called 'home') three years ago. Here, I have found a level of tolerance and acceptance of people as unique and valued individuals which is far higher than either of my previous 'home' countries.
Take a break and come visit. The academic life, music and bar cultures are all of an agreeably high standard. You will make friends who accept you simply as you are. You will feel at home.
Send me a pm, if interested.

[Lorileah]

Where to go when alone? Coffee shops! There are lots of Starbucks in Denver. Why don't you pick one and just become a regular

Well, I don't like expensive coffee but thank you .

Bring a book or a laptop. Hopefully, eventually you'll get to know the other regulars, if only to chat with while you're there.

If I am going to sit and read a book or be online, I can do that from home. Also, my experience is a person reading or working online basically says "don't bother me." But your point is well taken. I do appreciate the thought.

Also, didn't you used to sing Karaoke in a bar where you knew everyone? Do you still have friends who go there?

Karaoke bars are either very crowded and really not gregarious or they are one or two nights a week (this is Denver's scene anyway, it may be different in different cities). The bar you refer to has karaoke one night a week. The bar I sang with the piano closed (it died a year before, no one buried it) and the piano bar I go to now has established acts who don't usually let people, no matter how good, sit in. Also it is still bar and other than being a lush and spending a lot of time there, I am still a fish out of water (I have been there alone twice now) and even though I try and talk to others at the bar, I get the cold shoulder. If it were closer to home I may go go often but I really get concerned even having two drinks over three hours driving home. I am too pretty to go to jail.

Your point of being invisible is so true. I am not a 24 year old gymnast with insatiable desires who will sleep with anyone I meet. Yeah...click off everything virtually every man over 50 wants (I never understood why a man would other than the obvious physical...which fades rapidly). You would think a partner (male or female) would want someone they could share similar experiences with. I remember Bon Jovi with long hair...now the 20 somethings know him as the guy with short hair singing love ballads. I have no clue about pop culture so dating someone significantly younger would be like sitting in a foreign film without subtitles.

Again Reine, I really do appreciate your suggestions and everyone else's comments. To update, I have rectified it in my mind. No I won't sit alone at a bar. Easy enough, but also I have moved on from "friends" who don't get that. I may get terribly bored after summer. But, honestly, I am happy with how I look and how I am now. I just have to re-learn what women have known or learned over their lives.

[Zooey]

Lori, you mentioned your male friends. Do you have many female friends (cis or trans)?

While I didn't really "lose" any of my male friends, despite my personality being more or less the same they really don't relate to me the same way they used to. My female friends have really become the bedrock of my life. In particular, my two besties are absolutely my sisters and I can honestly say I would not be in the place I am right now were it not for them. My actual sister is pretty great too.

Have you considered finding some groups of likeminded women with similar interests on e.g. Meetup.com? Crafting, music, jogging, drinking, whatever - odds are there is a group of women doing it there.

[Lorileah]

Zooey, I think I am stuck between two worlds. I have many friends in the LGBT community. And they are great but without getting into a huge "to do" here, they do point toward being obviously on the trans spectrum. I have never been a big fan of drag unless it is done very well. In general the amateur bar shows leave a lot to be desired... My TS friends haven't invited me back into the fold yet (guess that indicates that they place me in the CD/DQ fold still because I don't discriminate within the community, anyone can be my friend). As far as Meetup.com (I am on the list for jazz and music) my observance is that it ends up with people leaving the same way they came. If they came in as a group or a pair...they leave that way and singles are shunned (unless you are very attractive...guess I am not I have talked to many singles...mostly women in these groups but they aren't looking for someone like me. They want Brad Pitt). I have tried to join the groups but there is tension. I will Google drinking groups. (PS I have met people in your circle and I agree they are great fun to be with and so open...here in Denver we must have different rules)

My entertainer friends, male and female, are great but they aren't looking for socialization. They are looking to keep or get gigs. That's my circle right now. Two weeks ago the local VFW told me I could come there anytime I wished, so that's an opening. But again it needs to be a group. Sitting at a bar alone even with cheap booze isn't what I am looking for.

The point though of the thread is that mindsets, male vs female: men vs women, in a social setting are different. Guys may be a little picky about where they go alone. Women have to be a LOT picky. A man alone at a bar is a man at a bar. Even if he cheers the opponent team, the worst he has to fear is angry looks usually. A woman at a bar alone (or restaurant but to a less extent but then again who socializes at restaurants?) garners more suspicions about her agenda. I was in a home improvement store staring at the display for 20 minutes (I needed a 3/4" clamp) and three male employees walked past me. Now three years ago every one of them would have noticed and asked if I needed help (I found the space they were supposed to be finally and they were out). Yes I have become invisible. Maybe it was what I was wearing, a skirt and flats because I had had a business meeting so they didn't think I was serious about fixing the sprinkler system.

[Georgette_USA]

Lori

I have NO male friends as such. Most of my friends are in the LGBT population. I can be very verbal and give not just empathy/sympathy to people.

I have given some advice/ideas earlier. I can understand your troubles being in the 60+ age, as at 63 when partner died I felt very alone, now 65. We had left the LGBT community many years prior. After 38 years together, it is hard to get back out there.
I searched out local TG support groups, found three and have been able to chat with many and had some socialization. I then found a large meetup group that is a mix of women/TG-TS/CD, some of the TG-TS are also in those TG support groups. This is strictly a social group.

We go to mostly some LGBT clubs, but also some that are not. I have gone to places by myself for many years, partner was not into going out much. I guess I don't give much thought to going to clubs by myself. Will go to non LGBT clubs and try and start chatting with male or female. Not really into Drag, but some friends like to go, so I do also. Quite a few also do Karaoke and have started to do that also. Some clubs are also big dance clubs.

My point being. Unless you want to be alone, you will need to do some things that you may not be interested in. For anyone who has transitioned, we learn to do a lot of things and go places that were not in our earlier activities. I will chat with many women wherever I am, movies/groceries/clothes shopping/nail salon.

As for the being invisible at stores and such, you need to be proactive. I had to be an Alpha female at work, and will do the same when out shopping. You let 3 employees walk by and didn't stop one of them. That is as bad as men that won't get directions when driving because they are MEN. I am almost always in a dress so don't use what you wear as an excuse.

I have many Male and Female friends at the LGBT clubs, and will try and start conversations with both male and female patrons. I even hooked up with one male that had NO problems with my background and he was at least 10-15 years younger. So not all men in LGBT clubs are looking for a Pre TG/TS, but may actually want a woman. Still working on finding a Lesbian who wants to be more than just a friend.

To use an over used statement "Put on Your Big Girl Panties" and get out there. Or stay home and cry yourself to sleep at night like I did for 6 months or so.

[ReineD]

Yes I have become invisible. Maybe it was what I was wearing, a skirt and flats because I had had a business meeting so they didn't think I was serious about fixing the sprinkler system.

I've become invisible during the last few years, but this is because of my age. It doesn't matter what I wear. I simply don't look like I'm in my 30s or 40s anymore. And by invisible, I specifically mean that men don't approach to flirt with me the way they did before. They're all flirting with the younger gals! lol. But, people in general are still nice to me and I do interact with lots of people.

I've always had to chase staff down to get answers in home improvement stores though, but I think this is simply the nature of stores like Lowes and Home Depot.