Things men (gay or straight) will never understand

[Lorileah]

The last two evenings I have sat at home. I am in a new world. As a Pre-op-TS before I was in no "man's" land. Gay guys didn't want me, lesbians didn't see me as a woman, straight guys were afraid I would turn them gay. Now, post op, I find things are worse. At least in a gay bar, I was just a "tranny". I was treated as part of the family, and honestly I could still play that game. I could be the "T" girl. But...why then did I have surgery? I coulda done that without. I need now to move into the muggle world. No?

Anyway, I have sat at home and I find that my male friends cannot grasp why I won't go out on a weekend night alone. They don't "get it" because as men, they CAN just waltz into a bar and either be accepted or they can defend themselves if a confrontation occurs. I could but I would lose. Maybe it's because I have had insight from the opposite perspective. When a man sees a woman, alone, in a bar what goes through their minds (now be honest I know you all were chaste and pious knights of the defenders of womanly virtues before but be honest, what do men...in packs THINK about a single woman at a bar?). She is a target...either a sexual conquest, who if she says no is placed into a different category as being cold, aloof or a man hater. OR if she is open and friendly...she is "interested" and now a target in a different manner and "want's him".

I find my male friends don't get this because they have never been vulnerable. Gay males can "butch up" in public. Me? I will still be at best a single woman or at worst the "Tranny"

So what's to do? I stayed home (which by the way really sucks when there is nothing on TV...which is the norm). And I catch hell from male friends for being a recluse now (while they go to bars that have themes that as a T I would NEVER fit). I try and explain that I just can't be alone, in public, anymore. I am not a man. I am a target in many ways now. I can't relax. And honestly, if I wanted to be alone I'd stay home. At least the drinks and food are cheaper.

For 50 years I didn't see this. Now it is obvious. But now the question, as we transition to womanhood, what else changes for us? Things we may have taken for granted?

[Zooey]

A small subsection of a list I could probably keep writing forever...

What it feels like...

• ...to be fundamentally devalued by men on a regular basis
• ...to be justifiably suspicious of unprompted male attention
• ...to be objectified sexually (most men, at least; strippers and gigelos exempted)
• ...to have men explain your gender to you
• ...to have to wonder what a bunch of men are going to try to do to your healthcare next
• ...to have men rarely accept your opinions/suggestions/statements at face value
• ...to have men routinely co-opt the credit for your ideas
• ...to be routinely told that you're being loud/bossy/rude/pretentious for having an opinion
• ...to be told, unprompted, how much nicer you'd look if you just dieted yourself into a skeleton (this happened to me recently, by Dr. Osterhout no less...)

The list goes on and on, but I can only stand to think about it so much after this past week here. I'm not even going to mention some of the creepy shit I got via PM this week.

[KellyJameson]

If you like to read I suggest a book called "Self Made Man" by Norah Vincent.

She lived for eighteen months as a man and the experience caused her to have a nervous breakdown.

It is eye opening how each sex learns to solve the problems of being born that sex and how it becomes second nature. Her insights in my opinion are profound. She unknowingly articulated many of the experiences trans people contend with that are called gender dysphoria by inserting herself into a world opposite the one she understood.

She thought she understood men but learned how wrong she was.

Transitioning is as much unlearning everything that came before and than learning that which women start to learn at a very early age.

The lessons are coping mechanisms used with and because of the opposite sex and also the one we live as and with.

Once someone transitions they must completely relearn how to relate to men and women because they are swimming in the world created by sex with all of its secret behaviors.

Each sex comes with benefits and costs. Risks,dangers and rewards.

A man looking in the eyes of another man may be seen as acting aggressively where not to do so as a woman with another woman may be seen as rude.

Social expectations are completely different.

Men and women do different things to stay safe and it may appear at first blush that men have more freedom but this freedom is an illusion because it comes at a high cost.

[pamela7]

I feel that Lorileah, and Zooey's bullet points hit home too. I'm lucky to live in a town where women can walk to a pub at night and feel safe. I've just come back from a day trip to London, where I spent the day with a women's group, and was accepted fully. I think the point is; "the man's game is over", "the woman's game" is different, where "both worlds" are possible for the CD, the trans world is learning to swim in the sea as a female fish.

You're right, the way men look at me now, even tho i am awaiting transition, is different now. I'm looking back and realising they mostly ignored my almost-always-right opinions and insights anyway, so no change there - probably a good reason why i have always preferred female company. It's a good eye-opener.

I don't know what else changes - yet - but I see no reason to stop challenging bs.

[Teresa]

Lorileah,
I feel it's very brave and honest of you to post this thread and give an insight into the final step, even if I fully understand or not I will sincerly hope it does get better for you, the surgery doesn't take away a good and active brain , reading many of your replies I know you have that inner strength to get through it.

I can relate the issue of people understanding or not by an incident that happened twenty years ago . I became very depressed about the CDing issue and nearly out of impulse rather than premeditation ended my own life, it was a very close call . Quite recently someone I knew jumped from a road bridge onto a busy main road only a short distance from my house. Suddenly it opened up those old wounds and it took me a week or so to get over the feeling of me taking his place and stepping over the parapet, it was so vivid !
To those who have never experienced that feeling , they will never understand, it did hit me hard because I felt life was OK and I'd got over feeling like that.

Our brains do heal and fortunately we can move on I hope you can heal in body and mind and move on to get the life and happiness you sought .

[Kaitlyn Michele]

well one thing i took for granted was that dilation is a lifetime sentence

[Badtranny]

hang on, I need to put on my helmet for this.

****secures chin strap*****

Okay go.

[Eryn]

One thing that I grapple with is the transition from being a transwoman to being a woman.

Being a transwoman is kind of exotic. My friends who know this are interested in me and, being progressive, they're very supportive. It's pretty cool to have a trans friend.

However, this is not my goal. I am working toward being accepted as a woman, period. I'm lucky to have a few locales and circles of friends in the mainstream world where I have never presented male and never revealed that I am trans. I'm well accepted in these circles and have even been in conversations when trans individuals were discussed (nicely) in the sense of "those people" which to me says that I was not perceived as being trans. This is as I desire, but it does have a bit of disappointment because I'm no longer special. I'm just a fiftysomething woman and therefore, in the words of Sue Ellen Cooper, "invisible to society."

Lorileah, My only suggestion is to expand your horizons. Gay bars might be perceived as comfortable for transpeople, but I've never really fit in. There is a whole mainstream world to explore and it is fun in either gender.

[Melissa Rose]

Privilege of any type often makes you ignorant or oblivious to the experiences of others outside of that privilege. That is the evil part of privilege. Lorileah, your male friends are exhibiting classic male privilege. It is difficult for them to understand some of the vulnerabilities that many women feel and face.

For the past 4 years, I have been working at non-profits with nearly or completely all women, or teaching in college with 95%+ male students where I am perceived to be in charge and more knowledgeable. This means I have not personally experienced many of patriarchal behaviors in the work place others have mentioned. I suspect it would be different with more men in the work place. It may seem very trivial, but one of the biggest thing I took for granted is how easy it was and how fast I could get ready to leave for work. The other is how less aware of my surroundings I felt I needed to be.


Dawn, you have the blame stick pointing in the wrong direction (i.e., victim blaming) and appear to be missing the point.

The problem is not wanting to be a woman and wanting to be treated as a guy, the problem is being treated as "less than" because you are a woman. Some of the fallout of this is being made to feel vulnerable. It is absolutely not about developing coping skills. Is cat calling or sexual assault partially acceptable or excusable because of what a woman is wearing, who she is with, where she is at and whether she has been drinking? Hell, no. Does cat calling and sexual assault occur? Unfortunately, it is a reality of life, but that does not mean anyone should accept it as a part of life. It is completely the perpetrators or abusers fault and not the victim regardless of the circumstances. The ones that need to learn to change their behavior (develop coping skills, if you like) are the ones who think it is acceptable or their right. It is not about wanting to be treated like a guy, but about being treated with dignity and respect in all circumstances regardless of who you are.

Feeling vulnerable is not limited to select locations such as a bar, but it happens at movies, restaurants, concerts, operas, when driving, at a political meeting, when shopping, at work - practically any place. It also happens when I am out with friends and not only when I am alone. When others behave in ways to make you feel devalued, less worthy, disrespected and fearful, it is their fault and they need to change their ways. Do I resent and feel angry there are times and places where I walk to my car a little faster, constantly scan my surroundings, hold my purse closer to my body, keep my car keys in my hand, and immediately lock my car door as soon as I get in? Yes, I do. Or assume the worse of a man I know nothing about, or avoid eye contact or small talk because I do not want to inadvertently send the wrong signal to the wrong person. Yes, I do. Is it my fault or lack of coping skills? No, it is not. And I resent being told I need to suck it up, accept and deal with it because that is the way society is. Parts of society need to change and cope with it, not me.

[pamela7]

Melissa, your post #10 reminded me of my younger days, when I did walk out at night in fear, at the time rightly so I felt. It took me years to conquer that and walk the dark backstreets of cities unafraid, and now, yes, it seems I'll have to walk there again constantly scanning and checking safety. Wtih hindsight that was quite a regular experience for women. So I think this does show at least one thing men (as i thought i was at the time) do feel.

[Nicole Erin]

Hanging out in bars or clubs may not be the best place to grow socially. They are great places for the younger crowds but too often there are the people who are older but still have the mentality of a 21 year old. Who wants to go to a place where you would have to maybe defend yourself? That doesn't sound like any fun.
I think if you found social venues outside the GLBT community, your gender status would not be an issue. You would just be another woman and not be dealing with "where are you on the gender spectrum" mentality of the GLBT community.

To answer about what changes -
Yeah there is dealing with men who think we are a conquest. You get that anytime, anywhere. Usually it is the desperate and creepy men.
The good things though is people don't ask you to do man stuff like fix things, lift heavy objects or whatever.
Women usually trust you more for friendship because they don't automatically assume you want in their pants.
We start to understand the crap women deal with their entire lives.

[Eryn]

Hanging out in bars or clubs may not be the best place to grow socially.

I tend to agree, if you are referring to LGBT clubs.

OTOH, I've found great growth in belonging to mainstream common-interest clubs. You meet people who automatically have something to discuss, and you can sharpen your interaction skills in a non-sexually-charged environment.

[Marcelle]

I find men can be very sexist and a lot of times it is quite blatant. My wife works as a paralegal for a major Law firm and they had a top executive down from corporate headquarters to explain changes to how performance is going to be assessed and not many people agreed with it . . . my wife included. So she stood up to ask how billing is going to work for those who charge flat fees and many hands see the file. His answer was not sufficient so she pushed the point. His reply . . . "Don't bat your eyes and pout you lips to me it is going to get you nowhere" . . . the predominate gender in the room was female and oh . . . it was International Women's Day. Nope men aren't sexist at all.

[Starling]

...dilation is a lifetime sentence

Does it give you any comfort, Kaitlyn, to know that cis-women can suffer from a vagina which closes from lack of activity? Granted, the condition--called "agglutination"--can be treated with estrogen, but many cis-women of a certain age do not want to use estrogen.

Lallie

[Caden Lane]

Lorileah, perhaps having one of your friends escort you as a "wingman"; obviously for company, but also as someone to fend off unwanted advances, and maybe, if you and especially they are lucky, he would get some perspective on whats bothering you. It may very well be a life changing experience for them.

[Lorileah]

Hanging out in bars or clubs may not be the best place to grow socially.

Awesome idea....now where do I go? I don't do churches. Grocery stores don't help. The committees I am on are all female. The associations I belong to treat me with indifference (a mix of fear and hate and wonder). So now where? The museum? The movies (can't meet anyone there). I will start a thread in a moment talking about moving away from being a "tranny". How does one lose that label? Never happens does it?

[Caden Lane]

Go somewhere fresh, do something new, meet people you've never encountered before pre-transition. If you have a hobby, find a group that revolves around that hobby. The best way to move on from being "the tranny," is to go where no one ever met you when you were one.

Ever & Always,
Cadence lane

[Brooklyn]

Lorileah, I don't think men are your problem here. True, the patriarchy does not treat us well, and that takes some getting used to after decades of male privilege. When it comes to integration, however, building rapport and friendships with cis-women can really help reduce the isolation that we all seem to experience. It takes time, and most of us we will always be seen as the trans-woman in the group, but there are lots of ordinary woman who have recently been through life-changing events too, such as divorce, relocation, disability, and so on. Being post-op now, you have one less barrier to being accepted.

Maybe what you are experiencing is similar to what most men experience following retirement? After a lifetime of competing against other men to establish hierarchy, they often find they have few friends outside of work, and can become bored with so few relationships. Women seem to be hierarchical as well, but it's based more on who your friends are and their perceived status. Let's face it, we are pretty much near the bottom of social rankings, but that doesn't mean you have to be alone at home all the time. You just need to hang around more cis-gender women, and gay bars are probably not the best place to do that.

Otherwise, re-runs of Glee always cheers me up.

[Caden Lane]

... You just need to hang around more cis-gender women, and gay bars are probably not the best place to do that.

SO very THIS. There is another topic where other sisters have gone to cross-dressing events and it was then they realized they were not merely cross-dressers. I too can relate to that. Perhaps you are at a similar point; where associating with other TG feels like it stigmatizes you. Finding more association with cis-gender women seems to be the most intellectual solution to your dilemma. I do feel for you and hope you are able to find a solution to your quandary.

[Laura912]

A former member of our faculty moved to NY so she could continue her specialty. She got tired of being known as the trans person while here. Interestingly she has become involved in a group of bird watchers. Although no hobby is completely gender neutral, is there anything you have wanted to learn/start but did not have time because of your practice and transition? Please do not think I am suggesting a hobby as a panacea.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I've rarely gone to bars and have never tried to pick up anybody (I'm bi) in a bar or club - the thought terrifies me. But given what you say about the existing stereotypes, I wonder why as a single woman you would wish to put yourself in that position?

The low-risk solution would be to go with a friend. That might piss you off, I'm not sure, but reality is that you'd be avoiding stress. I'm sorry you feel like a target going out on your own, but be pragmatic- I'd hope that getting used to going out with a friend would build your confidence; you might make friends, find a bar the new you likes- and eventually you might find that you feel confident to go there alone.

FWIW I'm a reasonably manly man (I almost never go out en femme), with no special hang ups or quirks, and I would find it totally intimidating to walk into a bar/club in the evening. I can go into a bar during the day, but it would be to eat and drink, not to look for sex. For that I rely on chance meetings, serendipity, casual encounters in normal every day life.

I'm not really clear on your objective. You have friends, male and female, so go out with them and take your chances. If you're enjoying yourself you'll be exuding confidence: who knows what might happen. Certainly more than sitting at home worrying about gender stereotypes.

[Badtranny]

LOL

In what world does a closet case have any advice to give a fully transitioned postie about life?

Only on the internet.

[Eryn]

Go somewhere fresh, do something new, meet people you've never encountered before pre-transition. If you have a hobby, find a group that revolves around that hobby. The best way to move on from being "the tranny," is to go where no one ever met you when you were one....

^^^ Best advice so far! ^^^

Let's see, Social groups in Denver...Here's a dozen...

Denver Gem and Mineral Guild
Last Note Singers Choir
American Needlepoint Guild Mile High Chapter
Denver Artists Group
Happy Hikers Hiking Club
Slippers-N-Sliders Ski Club
Denver Bicycle Touring Club
Mile High Experimental Aircraft Association
Colorado State Shooting Association
Denver Sailing Association
Rocky Mountain Radio League
Colorado State Square Dance Association

[pamela7]

In what world does a closet case have any advice to give a fully transitioned postie about life?

in the instance of observing that young women go out at night in pairs or groups - not alone.

[Deborah_UK]

Awesome idea....now where do I go? I don't do churches. Grocery stores don't help. The committees I am on are all female. The associations I belong to treat me with indifference (a mix of fear and hate and wonder). So now where? The museum? The movies (can't meet anyone there). I will start a thread in a moment talking about moving away from being a "tranny". How does one lose that label? Never happens does it?

As Caden says in her following post to yours, the best way to stop being "the Tranny" is to go where no one knew you before.

I had to transition in the workplace so, although I was treated "as a woman" (whatever that means!) there was always the underlying fact that the majority of staff knew me before, and even those joining after my transition were able to find out (old file minutes, old computer notes etc).

However I made the decision to start an evening educational course where no-one knew me, and I've been on that course for five years now and I'm not "the Tranny", I'm Deb - we socialise as a group as well.

And now that I've retired I have started some voluntary work, where again, no-one knows my history.

So there are ways to get away from your past, you've just got to go out and look for them