CDs Only - Why are we a hierarchy?

[Adriana Moretti]

I have friends on both sides of the spectrum, some CD's and some Full Time Trans...I agree that there is a hierarchy...but there are alot of differences between the two groups...a simple example would be a CD is still trying to get up the courage to get out the house, while a trans girl is trying to get the marker on there drivers licesnse changed. 2 totally different groups, with 2 totally different sets of issues. One of my good Trans friends recently was commenting that she is getting guilty of being "Trannier Than Thou" ...she said she never thought she would get like that but she cant stand going to CD/TG events anymore cause of what she see's. And she said that to ME..and I still consider myself a CD ( I think ) ...but i see what she goes through, been there with her for surgery, her marker change, and i get it. When your biggest issue is getting out of the house, or getting over the fear of buying makeup and clothes, how can you relate ? I dont see it as a pecking order, but rather an advancement, once you graduate from junior high, you go to high school, then a university, then maybe grad school....some never want to leave junior high, and thats ok too....

[Teresa]

Zooey,
Disregarding the superior question for a moment and considering differences, I often see the comment , " Just a CDer !" When you think about there's no such thing, we all have a different set of circumstances why we do it, if we can understand that much, maybe even an hierarchy to what we've achieved between us, the wanting more factor. For a TS it's simpler they have one goal to bring mind and body into alignment , most CDers don't feel that and most don't understand but aren't ignorant to the life changing decisions TSs must make. The problem comes when TSs know what sacrifices they must make, hopefully in the search for happiness and contentment they have never truly felt, but the road is not always that smooth and the final outcome doesn't match up to their expectations.

Please forgive me but this is only my personal view but when I look at what I would personally lose I describe it as jumping into a black hole, losing everything for no guarantees of the life you expect to be living, and possibly no close partner to share it with.
Sometimes I see evidence of that not only on the forum but reported in the media . How many would like to turn the clock back and try a different lifestyle ? So what I see sometimes in the TS section is resentment of CDers, they can still mix and match and still have reasonably happy lives. I truly believe I'm very close to TS , saying there's a big difference between us isn't quite true, it's one tiny link in the chain that keeps me on the male side, I'm sure many Cders feel like that .

The point about being out, and the travelling two cities comment . When you don't fully understand why you CD and yet for some inexplicable reason you need to go out dressed then of course you're going to travel out of your area you aren't going to jeopardise all you've built up for reasons you can't fully explain .

Do I feel you're superior ? No the impression given is that it's an elitist group and the view out at CDers is slightly condescending . I read a comment recently from that section that we're men playing at being women.

There are understandable differences but as I commented recently, at my social group we don't wear labels saying if we're CD or TS we mutually accept and respect one another, I spent some time at the last meeting talking to a TS, she's reached the stage of having to go dressed full time and we discussed family and work situation in that context. Others have fully transitioned and some are on HRT , but there's no demarcation between us we just have an enjoyable evening.

[sometimes_miss]

I've only experienced someone behaving as if they were superior to me (TS, or gay, as opposed to 'just a crossdresser') because they just assumed that I was still confused, and didn't really know what I was yet. And I can see why they might feel that way; because they may have gone through the initial feelings of am I male, am I female, am I gay, or what? Lots of guys here do seem to be at that point, and, from the outside looking in, DO appear to be stuck in limbo. How often to you read about a self described CD mention 'I'm attracted to men, but ONLY when I'm dressing/behaving as a girl; at all other times I'm really completely heterosexual'. Which of course is baloney, and any TS or gay person has been there; it's just a way of fooling only yourself, while pretty much everyone else knows exactly what it means. The superiority thing I think comes from the feeling of: 'I know who and what I am. YOU either don't, don't want to accept it, refuse to accept it, or are afraid to accept it'. And I've gotten this type of attitude from a few GG's, TS's and Gays, until I went through the whole nine yards explaining everything I've learned so far, and why I came to the conclusions that I have. And even then, of course, there are some who still believe that I'm just still in denial. What's interesting? Each sort of implied that I belonged in their group (other than the GG's, who have mostly told me they think I'm TS, but I wonder if that's because most of them have never met me in person). It makes me wonder if what I said might have reminded them of something that they felt earlier in their life. Damn, that's something I should have asked.

[Lorileah]

Moderator note why do I hear Casey Jones playing in the background? This thread seems intent on goading people. It assumes that Crossdressers in general have a hierarchy. Walk a fine line people

[Tina_gm]

I would imagine it is felt on both sides??? There are people who will think they are right, others are wrong, do it my way and if you do not, you are inferior. That is a human failure. It happens everywhere, all genders, you name it. In the last couple of years really, trans I think has taken on a less encompassing meaning. When I 1st joined this site, transgender was an umbrella term. And it was described to me as such from a very reputable gender counselor. Transgender covered any gender variance. So, CDers were very much considered transgender. Now, not as much.

I don't know it if is the increased media attention, and how they are linking the word transgender toward those who are TS. If so, and that is how the term will change, fine. We are in a little spot in time, quite a bit more awareness, a little bit more acceptance, and also because of the 1st two, more hate spewed as well.

Where am I going with this you ask? (please get to it already lol) That fine line, the I am trans, I am just a CDer, I believe is causing us to now think of ourselves in more of a black and white I am, you are not type of mindset.

So where before, I think it was believed, at least among CDers, but I do think overall, that TS was the progression of gender variance, of being transgender and realizing it is not a thing, or a part, but of all of who they are. Now, it is you are or you are not trans, and CDing seems to have zilch to do with it. TS members have often stated they are in an entirely different category than CDers, as if they were as different from CDers as to cis gender. I personally do not believe that to be true, but there is a difference in how people end up living their lives.

TS women on here have been getting very upset recently, and I do see why. And, CDers who are ??questioning?? things, not quite sure about where they actually fall in the whole gender variant trans thing, are told basically, if you do not know you are TS, then you are not TS. And it doesn't ever progress to being TS, you either are or you are not. Many CD members however do remember current TS members who once themselves were proud members of the "I am just CDer" club. I can see why there may be some hard feelings there as well.

I believe personally that we all do share ONE THING in common, and that is gender variance. From there it branches off in all kinds of different directions. I am not always in 100% agreement with any side. I am however in at least partial agreement with every side 100% of the time. I can only hope we spend more time working with that which we can see as our similarities and work to help each other in what is often a very hostile environment. Lately, that little dividing line created of who is trans and who isn't seems to be getting the better of many of us.

[Mayo]

First, I agree with others posting here that the various groups are (broadly speaking) on a spectrum of non-binary expressions and so, in that sense, none is 'superior' to another in the sense that red is not 'superior' to blue. However, there are qualitative differences between red and blue. Others have noted that the privileges, life experiences and struggles of TSs are different than CDs, even while they share some commonalities. TSs have experiences and knowledge that many CDs don't, so it's inappropriate for the latter to pontificate on issues related to the former, just as it's inappropriate for white people to speak on behalf of people of colour or straights to speak on behalf of LGB folks. And while some CDs may eventually transition, until they start seriously considering it and educating themselves about TS issues, some of them can say some pretty ignorant things, and there it is appropriate for TSs to educate them and, if necessary, take them to task.

[Lacey New]

I am here as a member of this site because I am a cross dresser. I am in the closet not really out to anyone. But I enjoy and sometimes to a degree envy those members here who are out more especially to their SO. I have learned a lot about shopping, relationships and the wide variation of gender identity and sexual orientation of the members here. There has been a lot,of,discussion about labels. I for one, don't really care. I see no hierarchy. I do not feel as if my views or my form or fashion of cross dressing is marginalized. In fact, there appear to be a lot of hetero male non-transitioning members just like me. So I see myself as simply occupying a data point on the continuum. My data point may not be in the same place as yours, but we are all somewhere on the same line. Enjoy your dot point and I'll enjoy mine.

[Tabitha_Sinn]

Amen Lacey!

[Vickie_CDTV]

Being men are naturally competitive, some who dress might seem transitioning, HRT etc. a greater accomplishment than where are at, and want to see if they can be as accomplished as being a woman as others.

Yes, that sounds ludicrous, and objectively it is, but I have known a few folks over the years who had just started dressing, going out... and then went all out to become more and more passable, consequences be damned. Go figure.

[Mykaa]

I find it real hard to "want to participate" in this. I accepted myself when I joined and I thought if I can do that there is no reason I cant accept anyone else, this is only a hierarchy if you make it 1. I know Im a color in the spectrum somewhere, what color? I dont know, does it matter? Is it really necessary to "grade me by my likes/dislikes or how or why I do this, or what I talk about? The thing is Im here, I talk, I try to help others, I may not understand why you did what you did,or do, but I dont judge you for it.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Hi and thanks for your question Zooey.

It's not your imagination, I've felt it too, and other members I've been in touch with also feel it.

It feels like the difference between juniors and seniors. It feels like there's a certain sense of exclusivity among parts of the TS membership, kind of a moral high ground. When I go there (I am a CD only) I comment far less and am far more guarded in what I say, despite my deep interest in the section. Being slapped down a couple of times makes you cautious.

Don't get me wrong- my remarks only apply to some of the members- others have been totally cool.

FWIW a few of the harder-core CD members can be similarly judgemental - it's just folks.

Being men are naturally competitive...

Oh and like women totally aren't.

[Laura912]

Zooey, the hornets buzzing out of this nest you have kicked are exactly what one could have predicted based on your question. So many different people giving so many different responses based on each individual's perspective. Many answers sound similar but still have nuances of difference. The illusion that some feel superior may have derived from the comments made by some in the TS forum when trying to teach others new to that section, or even some of the old timers there, about the issues with which the TS people deal. Are humans a hierarchal species by nature? Some would answer, we are all equal but just slightly more equal than others. Having taken care of people for nearly 45 years, these varied responses are not at all surprising. The issue is compounded by the fact that it has to be done in writing. If everyone sat down together and talked,(what a hoot that would be!) we would most likely find more kinship that differences.

[Teresa]

Laura,
Exactly what I've found from my social group at times it is a hoot !

[Sallee]

I don't think there really is a hierarchy that the hierarchy is some thing we as people introduce to ourselves. I know when I first started going to support groups there tended to be a hierarchy between the full time, part time TS's who were working toward transition. I even got the comment from several,,of "I don't understand you" or "whats up with you" or something to that effect. I am a part time CD I am no different from the full time TSs or transitioners. I agree that the full times didn't understand me but I don't understand me Why would a normal man want to dress and pass as a woman some tof the time? I wish I knew but it is fun and I enjoy it and
The hierarchy is something that is in our own minds and that is pretty much it. Its like the clicks in school.

[ashley_addams76]

I don't think of it as better, but think of it sort of like autism. The spectrum is so wide and varying and they all face a varying degree of challenges. Some are high functioning and others have more difficult challenges.

[Sarah Doepner]

I don't see the hierarchy but I do see many different sets of interests here. I'd like to use the Transgender Umbrella example if I may. Broadly defined we all fit under that umbrella but depending on our personal goals, limitations and assets, we occupy different spokes of that umbrella at varying distances from the hub. If I start offering input on the life of a person of color, with little income who is doing a medical transition and intends to maintain a relationship with their same sex partner, I'd better be very careful because I'm well out of my wheelhouse. It's better if I ask questions ane read a lot before I jump in on conversations where I really don't have any expertise.

I wonder if that's what we are feeling here at times. It's easy to assume we can have valid input on any post in this forum, but the diversity is so extreme that negative responses (or just being ignored) can be much more common than we would expect. I have had conversations with women well into their transition and they have covered a lot of ground through that process. They still have their eyes on their goal and are working hard to attain it. Time spent joining in the conversation about those who are justifiably pleased with their progress in making that first mid-night walk takes them away from the conversation about getting gender markers changed or dealing with transitioning in the work place or understanding more about the hormone balances they are experiencing. It doesn't mean they won't do it or won't offer ideas or suggestions, but when they do, it may come off sounding like they are not just beyond those issues but above them as well. So is it semantics and word choice? Maybe. Is it disinterest? Possibly. Are they looking down on us or just looking from a distance?

It's all possible, but I'd be most likely to believe it's not a feeling of superiority but one of distance that is being seen.

[Zooey]

I'm still not planning to comment directly on any of things I've read here, although it's been very interesting to read. That said, I wanted to highlight this statement in particular. Sarah is not the only person in this thread to have said something similar, but this is the briefest, most direct version of it I've seen in this thread, and I think it sums up the way most of the trans women regulars here feel.

It's all possible, but I'd be most likely to believe it's not a feeling of superiority but one of distance that is being seen.

I have some followup questions, based on what I've read here.

Many of you have said that your primary reason for e.g. wanting to come into the TS forum is to learn about our experiences. While there are a lot of things we DO post in the public TS forum, there are a lot of personal struggles that are discussed in private. So here are my questions...

1) Do you feel you would benefit from having more of those struggles discussed in an area that is publicly viewable?

2) Would you feel the same way if some of our discussions were about struggles to understand you, or difficulties (both intellectual and practical) that some people feel CDs and gender-fluid people can cause for us in certain cases? Some of these discussions could sound fairly critical.

3) Do you think that, if you read something covered by #2, you could refrain from fighting us on it?

Speaking for myself, I would be more than willing to start sharing some of my personal experiences and opinions on things in much more direct ways. Believe it or not, I don't actually do it very often here - I debate much more often than I share. I respect that it is a moderation challenge, especially when people get angry/hurt/etc., and there have been casualties associated with this type of discussion already.

So, I guess what I'm interested to know is... How much do you really want to know?

[Mayo]

1) Do you feel you would benefit from having more of those struggles discussed in an area that is publicly viewable?

As much as I like to pretend that reason should triumph over emotion, I know that's BS. Humans find it easier to ignore unpleasant truths if they can reduce them to numbers or distance themselves from them in other ways (e.g. droughts, famines and wars in far-away countries). It's more difficult to maintain prejudice toward a group of people if you know and interact with them closely and regularly, and one important task facing the T in LGBT is ultimately to connect with the straights and demonstrate to them that they are just regular people.^* It sounds a bit like circular logic, but the general public won't see trans people as human until they are finally able to see them as human, if that makes any sense. For this reason, reading the stories of individuals can help to 'humanize' them and make the issues they face more accessible. Those of us here who are not members of one subgroup can therefore benefit by learning about those who may be members of another.^**

So that's a yes from me.

At the same time, members who don't want to discuss their personal struggles or issues in a forum with wider access should still have a place where they can feel safe to do so. Perhaps this might require some duplication of topics, I don't know.

2) Would you feel the same way if some of our discussions were about struggles to understand you, or difficulties (both intellectual and practical) that some people feel CDs and gender-fluid people can cause for us in certain cases? Some of these discussions could sound fairly critical.

As I implied (if not outright stated) above, different people on these forums have different experiences, issues and concerns. That some members are openly discussing the difficulties others are having communicating with each other is proof enough of that. I think we need to understand that we do have our differences and that a) not everybody is facing the same trials, b) what works for one subgroup might not work for another, and c) if you are a member of one subgroup, that doesn't necessarily give you understanding of, or entitlement to discuss, the issues facing another. If I'm going into a group discussion by women of colour or Indigenous people, for example, I have to know how to check my privilege, shut up and listen - that way I can hear what's being said and learn from it without giving the appearance of mansplaining/whitesplaining or feeling entitled to offer my uninformed opinion where it's neither needed nor wanted.

3) Do you think that, if you read something covered by #2, you could refrain from fighting us on it?

I like to think so. Sometimes being told you've said something stupid or offensive is painful, and one tends to jump to one's own defence. Part of listening is to hear what's being said and why, and not to take offence in turn and react blindly to it.



^* I say this without making any claims about whose 'responsibility' it is to do so, or how it should be accomplished. Frankly, the straights should be making the effort themselves, but that's unfortunately not usually how it works out. I'm aware that gays used this tactic to gain acceptability, often at the cost of throwing trans people under the bus, but there's no reason it can't also work for trans people now.

^** This is a two-way street, of course, but the dominant narrative on this site is that of the straight white male cross-dresser, and as the dominant group their story tends to be more familiar than that of trans people.

[Nadine Spirit]

For me..... I don't see this issue as a hierarchy issue, I see it as a binary issue. Most who frequent these boards are fine with the gender binary. Most of the CDs here are fine with being male, and consider themselves 100% male, with just an odd quirk. Most of the TSs who frequent these boards are fine with being female and consider themselves to be 100% female. And you know what, that is totally cool.

The thing that is not cool is when some of us who insist that we are someone in between the two genders are looked upon as needing to somehow fit into the binary system. Often times our thoughts, ideas, questions, inquiries are dismissed because we are told that we are not really TS and thus we should not consider those things. When we are told what we should and should not do, then it does feel as though some see themselves as being in a position to tell others what they should or shouldn't do. It is not that some are higher or lower, some assume a higher or lower position and then behave as if they were granted a crown.

edit -----

You know for example of what I am saying, what does the title of this thread say "For CDs only......"

Where exactly do folk like me fit in????

CDs don't think we are CDs and TSs don't think we are TSs. Hmm...... maybe then since I don't fit the qualifications stated I should have never replied in the first place.....

[Polly R]

So, this question is for the CDs only. Why do you perceive this hierarchy between us? Is it exclusively about things we say to you, or the way we say them? I don't think so - I think there's a lot more to it than that - but I want to hear your opinions. Please, NO TS OR GG responses. CD only.

Ages since I've been on but this question caught my eye. Last week I went out to my local trans group meeting. I'm strictly a hetero-CD of 35+ years. My wife knows and has helped me a lot to try and come to terms with myself once the storm of coming out to her had subsided. For me, such words as guilt, self-loathing and a host of other descriptions come to mind from the early days. Just couldn't understand the urge to dress up, why me? (And this was before the www and finding I wasn't alone!!). Never wanted to actually become a woman but enjoyed the look and feel of the clothes and all the warpaint. It took me until recent years before I could really come to terms with it. I've read up on the whole LBGT subject and met and talked with many from all sides of the spectrum.

So, back to my local group... They're mainly TS - either gone the whole way or on the way. The general feeling towards us CDers is, 'What's the difference between a CD and a TS? Ans: 'About 5 years...' They do try and push their views on us, the leaders are very active with the local Police force, County Council and Welsh Assembly in pushing the TG agenda. OK, it is changing perceptions about the TS's but I feel it's not too good for us CDers, we're quite happy getting dolled up every so often and going out to a meeting or in most of our cases, blending in and going out for a walk in the town, city or countryside without attracting too much attention and enjoying the inner peace and relief that comes with getting dressed up nicely. I have to agree that their work with the Police force is good - they know about us and if one was to be stopped, you only have to mention the group and the local force's Diversity Officer's name and all 'should' be well.

I do feel that in my local group, it is the TS's who tend to rule the roost and push their views on us CDers.

That's my personal opinion and two penneth...

xx Polly

[AllisonS]

Every house needs a toilet. Groups tend to look for groups they are better than. I think we are the most logical candidate for the job. Monty Pythons skit with the people's front of Judea vs the Judean people's front comes to mind.

[SeanErin]

Newbie reply, Hierarchy implies some sort of order or codification. Bet the members here would rebel and it would be anarchy if someone else's idea of CD was globally applied to them.

[StarrOfDelite]

I don't perceive any notions of a hierarchy. I think that transsexuals have some very real physical and psychological difference from the vast majority of cross dressers, even those who pretty much do what they wanna do with whoever, etc. etc.

Because they are such a small minority community within the larger society, my perception is that the transsexual community has circled its wagons to protect itself, and presents a "if you're not one of us, you're presumed to be against us." face to the world. People who isolate themselves from the larger society, even if that isoolation is acceptable to the larger society, tend to be viewed as elitist. The Nazis thought that the Jews were elitist, and trying to control Germany, for example. Even in he United States, I know Reform Jews who think that Ultra-Orthodox Jews are elitist because they live in isolated groups.

I think that inside the cross-dressing community is where the potential for hierarchies exist. Those who "go out" (even two towns away) can seem a bit condescending to the closeted, those who under-dress tend to baffle a lot of people, and there is the issue of sexual preference which is sort of an underlayment to everything.

I think that cross-dressers and transsexuals need each other politically. The TS are the people with whom the majority of people sympathize profoundly on things like the bathroom laws and medical care access, for example, whereas not many people seem to sympathize with the full dress CD who has to use the urinal trough at a football game because the toilet seats are covered with feces

I wrote in another thread, words to the effect that totalitarian regimes always try to split the relatively large body of dissenters into disparate small groups, and then isolate and crush the small groups one-by-one. I think, for example, if the vocal minority of Haters can convince the majority to turn back the hands of time to the point where an underdresser can be fired merely for wearing a bra to work, then it isn't long before they convince the world that the TS are just a bunch of Weirdos who want to change something which God created, and that's a sin.

Hierarchies and differences be damned. Political strength and unity are what we need. Time enough to fight when everyone's rights are guaranteed by law and supreme court decisions!

[SeanErin]

Well put Starr, I am one of those under dressers with a bra on at work. I did get laid off at one once but that a bigger political morass than folks attire.

To clarify, this was about the time I started and had a few talks with Sr.. HR while in a bra or shelf cami about the environment.

Still had nothing to do with the layoff situation but out of the gate, that was unnerving..

[Laura912]

Zooey, i honestly do not know how to accurately answer your three new questions without writing a book. The answer should be whatever will bring us closer together in understanding each others issues and triumphs without being divisive.