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Thread: Why is the negative so easily assumed?

  1. #26
    tiptoeing thru the tulips ellbee's Avatar
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    To be fair, I think many of the GG's already here might, at the very least, be trying to make some kind of effort. Otherwise, why would they even be here to begin with? (Not saying it's always easy for them, though, either.)

    But think of how many *aren't* here at a site like this. And that's where I think you'd find a *whole* lot more of the "not-so-nice" stuff.
    Last edited by ellbee; 09-26-2016 at 03:54 PM.

  2. #27
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Laura, I think you'd be wrong (and no I don't have access). The women who are here are here because they WANT to understand and keep the relationship intact. So I feel that in the GG section there is more discussion about "I want to be there for him (her) but they don't make it easy."

    Let this old geezer give her perspective about being 20 something and the dating scene. How many times was I dumped or turned down because I wasn't built or look like a movie star (hundreds). How many times was I dumped or turned down because I wasn't a "biker" (3). How many times was I turned down because I was in the Army (TMTC). So going through women until you find the one who likes YOU...that is the "norm". The number of couples I know who found Mr or Ms Right early on I can count on one hand. The divorce rate (IMHO) is more due to NOT being honest up front and having things pop up later. So you are a carnivore. You meet the woman of your dreams but she is total vegan. Now YOU have a choice. You can stay. If you stay you can arrive at an understanding (acceptance) that she is a vegan. You don't have to be a vegan (My GF was a select carnivore. She would not eat red meats or mammals...still had the best times of my life with her...and dinners too). That would be tolerance of her life. I didn't try and change her mind, instead I let her eat what she wanted (Support). Yeh it made it awkward at some functions but hey, as stated above, that is LOVE. I grew up in a family that ate meat, a community that made it's living from meat, so I was taught that meat was good. She didn't grow up that way. OK now you're saying "Hey, not eating meat doesn't change the world." OK, I get that. I informed this same woman about "Lori" before we met. She (if she was you "normal" woman) should have run away...and yet she wanted to be with ME. Not the clothes. (accepting AND supportive). The thing is if one has anything you suspect may interfere with your future (i.e. you KNOW she doesn't like men who wear dresses) then she should be the one to decide if the relationship continues. If you hide that you allow her to build a life without all the facts. Not fair. And then you wonder why she gets upset. Maybe, if you had allowed her to use her own brain, instead of trying to guess how she is supposed to feel and react (projecting), then your dressing would have been something she tolerated, or was willing to work around. This is what we like to call trust. Trust is given easily but it is fragile. And once broken it is hard to rebuild.

    And much of what is said here is tainted with how we feel about ourselves. Often it is noted that "woman want men who..." and in fact the men here have been taught the same as how they "should" be. From the start we are told how a man should act. That is why there is so much guilt and a huge reason CDs hide in the closet. So, we tend to to not like showing that side. But again we don't let the women decide. Granted, they have as skewed vision. The knight in shining armor is a fallacy (us old geezers who could be mothers or grandmothers know that). But youth clouds that. One thing that shows our own bias is words. Words like "prancing" ( I don't prance). And words like "tutus" (never have worn one of those either) Let's change those words in the above post.
    When they come home one day and find their "knight" prancing around the house in a tutu and heels, it can be quite a shock.
    to When they come home one day and find their "knight"(has solved the string theory and will bring unlimited fame and fortune sitting) around the house in (a stylish Women's outfit.) It would still be a shock. Hey after all you hid an important part of your life for years (who knew you were a Quantum Physicist?) But it doesn't show your bias that you are less than what society says you should be. As Jen noted, a positive spin.

    That, I think, is a major point of this thread. When we expect bad, we get it. Not that you will get the best all the time, but you don't give it a chance to happen. You are Eeyore. Think of it like a salesperson. How many sales do you get if you say "Hey, you wouldn't want to buy this would you?" vs "Have I got something you would love to have." If you decide that whomever you are after has already made up their mind, you lose the sale. That's what happens here. You have decided your SO doesn't have the ability to decide if they love YOU over what you wear. Personally, if I was with someone like that, the relationship would eventually implode. I have a brain, you have a brain. I don't decide what you would think, you don't decide what I should think. Why is there a greater than 50% chance your marriage will fail (and a much higher rate that your dating life will fail)? Honesty and trust, specifically the lack thereof (and this isn't just dressing...it's everything)
    Last edited by Lorileah; 09-26-2016 at 04:51 PM.
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  3. #28
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    I do like your thoughtful explanations and contribution in this post, Lorileah.

    Ineke

  4. #29
    tiptoeing thru the tulips ellbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    Laura, I think you'd be wrong (and no I don't have access). The women who are here are here because they WANT to understand and keep the relationship intact. So I feel that in the GG section there is more discussion about "I want to be there for him (her) but they don't make it easy."
    Yeah, I understand that, which is why I followed up to my original post that I probably made in haste.

    With the ones here who *are* trying to make it work & understand it all, which we should give them full credit for, even *they* are probably honestly & deep-down struggling a bit on some levels. And I've seen a little of this here publicly before. So, I can imagine the ones who aren't even bothering to make an effort are probably way more likely to seriously "frown" upon this kind of stuff, and automatically assume "the worst" -- and I think many (but not all!) shared stories here reflect that.


    Honestly, as a usually-single guy just trying to live as "normal" of a life as I can (and arguably there might be a bit more than just a simple case of CD'ing going on with me, ha!), I'll agree that it's not easy for me, either. I'd like to think, anyway, that I can certainly make a pretty awesome SO -- though I can also relate to some others here, with many GG's who'd rather see me as a friend/one of their sisters, than as a potential mate, because of all this.

    Not to toot my horn too much, but hey, their loss.

    Though at the same time, it is rather unfortunate for both sides, especially over something like this.

  5. #30
    Member Brynna M's Avatar
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    This forum and people on it are a small subset of the world at large. Many people with SOs who are no chance in hell of accepting probably aren't any where near this forum ( either thy never were or left often a bad reveal). Then there are all the females in other parts of life that make comments about the trans spectrum in a negative light.
    I've got not data to say one way or the other but I don't think this forum is a fair sample pool and with the generally negative (or tolerate at a distance) view of atypical gender variation expressed by most people I don't think. "Acceptance is not the norm" is a stretch assumption.
    I'm content being a once in a while girl.

  6. #31
    its important mykell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenniferathome View Post
    Mikel, of course I share my point of view. What other point of view can any individual have?
    jen not tryng to be critical, youve shared views from your family and hoped you could share "if" it was them or something they may have shared about this or something similar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenniferathome View Post
    Regarding he question about my girls meeting Dolvewell.. I covered this idea above.
    "As I wrote above, a new girlfriend, the ones you have in college, have little vested in you and have limited life experiences. It's logical that they would not choose the hard path they're still figuring themselves out. You both are!"

    many here advocate that we disclose this to anyone when we first start getting close to someone, dolovewell has done this and shared what its like in her reality and she kinda gets shamed for doing it, you say that its negative but to dolovewell its just the truth, "it was not the norm"......what timing is right and how does anyone know when they have met theyre soulmate .....at what time does it becomes serious enough to disclose this hard truth we guard, how many here met the love of theyre life while attending or at a higher learning facility ?

    Now, would my girls dump their "serious" boyfriend if he came out to them? I don't know but I doubt it.
    like i stated you share the POV of the women in your life, i was trying to get your feelings of if your girls found themselves in this situation, i have no daughters so their is no dinner table banter about what young a womens perspective like your girls bring to the table.....at mine, only my mrs. and my son. just looking for something deeper than "you doubt it." from that kind of perspective.
    i didnt see "not the norm as negative, just an observation......again just my
    Last edited by mykell; 09-26-2016 at 06:43 PM. Reason: tweak
    ....Mykell
    i dressed like a girl and i liked it! crossdressing...theirs an app for that

  7. #32
    Silver Member Micki_Finn's Avatar
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    I'm just going to leave this here:

    "My comment was more geared toward younger single men and not so much older married men. For people my age, things are different. We live in a world where divorce rates are over 50% "

    In a NYT piece looking at the stubbornness of the 50 percent divorce rate myth, Claire Cain Miller reiterates what she says social scientists have been trying to tell us for a while now: Divorce rates reached their peak in the 1970s and 1980s and have been going down—not up, and not holding steady—ever since. Some 70 percent of folks who got married in the 1990s made it 15 whole years together, a 5 percent increase from the previous two decades. And nearly 75 percent of marriages from the last decade are going to make it to death.

  8. #33
    Southern Girl dolovewell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lianatcharles View Post
    Dolovewell, in college and throughout my 20s (i'm 32- so, not your mom/grandma) i've had completely the opposite experience with the 4 or so girlfriends i'd had then. I do think it is about the type of love & trust built up in a relationship, and not so much about whether one is seen as a typical Knight/Champion or not. I think that if you are truly one's champion, they will love you no matter what you do as a CD or otherwise. We can talk about the "biology" and selection stuff but it's funny when a lot of the CDs I know are more masculine, stronger, and rugged than a lot of those we assume as non-cd men out there. My fiancee even pointed that out when the night before I was dressed as a beautiful woman, and that next day i'm the manly man using my power tools around the house. I do understand where you're coming from though as your experiences have been different.
    I actually think this is my problem. I believe women are attracted to me because, in male mode, I am a masculine man.

    If any of you saw me in person on the street in male mode, you'd probably stereotype me as a "dumb jock frat boy" type. That's who I am in male mode. I played 4 sports in high school and 2 in college. I lift 4 days a week, I am in tip top shape, I'm confident, cocky, muscular, low body fat %, six pack abs, all of that. Therefore I attract women who are attracted to masculine, muscular, cocky men like myself. So when I tell them I wear women's clothing, it destroys the vision and perception they have of me. They lose attraction because the reason they were attracted to me has been tainted.

    I weren't a masculine muscular jock type, I could theoretically attract a different type of woman, who theoretically could probably be more open to me being a crossdresser.

  9. #34
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    Dolovewell, you are not alone. The cross dressers here run quite the gamut of "manly men." I was only a one sport star in my D1 college (tennis). I now race mountain bikes and road bikes. There are many others here with similar stories. Cops, military, jocks a plenty. When I was chasing my wife to be, I was the alpha male. No one ever, even today, would think cross dressing was a possibility for me. This is really the norm. Cross dressing doesn't make me less manly, unless I am cross dressed....

  10. #35
    Southern Girl dolovewell's Avatar
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    I have to agree with you there Jennifer.

    If you saw me on the street I'd be the last person you'd suspect to be a crossdresser.

    I started cross dressing at 12. Something I did in secret growing up. I was a star athlete in high school, was fortunate enough to be able to play two sports in college. As I grew up I would go through "cycles" of dressing and loving it, and purging and hating it. I'd dress, love it for a while, then eventually be shamed of myself, purge it all and vow to never do it again. I'd then overcompensate by being ultra masculine but eventually the urges to come back and the cycle would repeat. I'd be in the locker room and feel like a piece of worthless garbage because here I am, a great athlete surrounded by great athletes, and yet I wear women's clothes in my private time.

    My last purge, in March of 2015, I seriously thought that was it. I'd never do it again. And I made it about 16 months. That's the longest I've ever gone without dressing. But the desire to crossdress came back. I suppressed and suppressed and suppressed. Until it was pushing back too hard to suppress anymore. It has been like a flood. I realized that this is part of me, and its not going anywhere, and purging/suppressing will only make it come back that much harder. I've come to accept that crossdressing doesn't make me any less of a man, or should it be something I should be ashamed of. Therefore I called a truce with my crossdressing. I've finally accepted it. Something I was never able to do. It was something I did and was ashamed of. Now, its something I am embracing. That was the final hurdle. Now I can do it guilt and shame free.

    I do consider myself fortunate that I don't have gender identity issues like some do. That would be hard to deal with. I am a man and happy with my male life. No desire to go full time or transition or anything like that. But sometimes I just like to step out away from my male world, be feminine and be a woman.

  11. #36
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Which sorta explains a gold medal winner, an Ex-Navy SEAL, an EX-Marine officer, Ex-High School All State football player That off hand I can vouch personally for who are TS. I think many of of "us" played the man card to the max when we started. It isn't uncommon, but DoLove I think maybe you are shopping the wrong market.
    I weren't a masculine muscular jock type, I could theoretically attract a different type of woman, who theoretically could probably be more open to me being a crossdresser.
    . I am sure there are many women who would be more attracted to your intellect or wit or charm if you actually went where they are.
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  12. #37
    Southern Girl dolovewell's Avatar
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    I am sure there is some truth to that Lorileah. The women I have dated... I guess the best way to describe them would be bar bimbos. The types of women who are all glitz and glam and looks but not much brains. Two of the girls I outed myself to were dancers for two different NBA teams, stunning looks and bodies but not much mental intellect.

    But for now I am satisfied being single and on my own. I don't have to answer to anyone. I can do what I want when I want. And with my lifestyle, that's how it has to be. In my line of work I move around a lot. I've lived in 7 different cities since graduating college a few years ago. So I actually don't really search around because I don't want to have to worry about committing to someone when I could be on the move again.

    One day I'll settle down in a city for longer than a year or two and perhaps then I will be open to a relationship.

  13. #38
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    yeah....I have a single datum only, but I pursued a pretty, smart girl who was well read, intellectual and into art. So perhaps not surprisingly when I told her I liked to wear women's clothes 6 months into dating she didn't run screaming for the exits. 25 years later we're still together. And like Jen, then and now I'm a cyclist and outdoor adventurer type. Though I'be never had an interest in following sports.

    They are out there...

  14. #39
    Junior Member Thictoria's Avatar
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    I agree with Jenniferathome, if a relationship is rock solid and the love is there it can survive anything! I had a partner that was abusive and manipulating, if he had told me he was a cd i would of used it to get away from him (not saying anyone else is this) but my current partner of only nearly 2 years told me 6 ish months ago and i had to get him to admit it to me! The difference is i love him with all my heart and him for who he is which is an honest, loving supportive and kind person who i want a future with!! It's definitely not the worst thing a man could love to do and we both enjoy it now after a few wobbles on my part the feelings and commitment definitely have to be there and lots of trust !

  15. #40
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    Jen,
    I wonder if the problem is most CDers think in the negative , we have to look for so many work rounds, for that reason it's difficult to find enough positives to balance that feeling out.

    So what is the " Norm" to my wife and I guess like most , an honest, hard working man who will stand by her as a husband, support her with the children and be there to enjoy the fruits of grandchildren. To most of us here, parts or all of that possibly remain true , as you say it's perhaps not the CDing that is the problem but the lies and deceit that go with it. The problem with that is and it's something our partners don't always realise is for many years we lie and try and deceive ourselves. When we finally come out to our partner we very often come out to ourselves, we have to face the many aspects of it before we can even begin to explain it to anyone else, on top of that all the years we have been the dutiful partner are suddenly thrown aside with rejection, accusations of lying and threats of divorce.

    Some will argue that we should have been honest before committing to a partner, but it just isn't as simple as that. The simple statement that we lied and intended to deceive isn't true in so many instances, we only find much of this out in hindsight when we find how complex being TG is. I know I've said this before, our partners aren't all whiter than white, many of us have been deceived through our married lives, the saying of only wanting the man she married goes both ways .

    I will admit I have too many negatives or maybe you could say I'm getting older and more cynical , all I know is I'm glad CDing is finally an open part of my life , because I enjoy it and it makes me happy.

    Bryanna,
    I'm not sure if I agree with you, the percentage of CDers on the forum can never be stated but we are a good cross section, if you look at the different replies to any of the threads they give a good cross section of the TG community. The percentage of members here probably give a good idea of the feelings and situation of people that chose not to search on the forum or the web in general . The members of my social group reinforce this point , I know three are members here but the majority aren't and yet their feelings and opinions are very much the same as most here, I am surprised at the number of supportive partners that accompany the Cders to the meetings.
    Last edited by Teresa; 09-27-2016 at 07:10 AM.

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    I was a little different in High School. Very slight and tall. I ran track and cross-country and was not the typical "jock". However, at about 24 years old, my body finally decided to catch up and now days I've got the V shaped upper body I'd have loved to have as a teen, muscle definition that I could never get no matter how many hours I spent in the weight room as school, and overall a much more macho appearance. I lift 6 days a week, run every day, and also am involved in sports. The good news is that when I walk into a bar in male mode, generally I don't have any issues with guys wanting to start fights with me. Unfortunately, my build makes it hard to pass as anything other than what guys often refer to as "an amazon" when in female mode. But then I'm guessing that's probably a similar issue many of us have.

  17. #42
    Southern Girl dolovewell's Avatar
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    I guess that is where I am lucky Lisa. I am muscular and strong, but very lean. Low body fat. I am 6 feet tall but only 155 pounds.Think Brad Pitt from fight club.

    In November of 2014 I was about 185 pounds and ballooned up to 205 pounds by February of 2015. You could see the changes in my face, for the worse. I got the double chin going, a beer belly and everything. I went from looking decent in clothes to looking terrible. My dress size was 12, had to wear large size tops and panties and bra size was 38 band.

    I got motivated and shed 50 pounds. Waist size went from 39 to 28, measurements are 33/28/38. My dress size is now 6, I wear small sized tops, small sized panties and 32/34 band size bras. I haven't dressed fully yet all the way since losing the weight so I wonder what I will look like when I am fully dressed up again with makeup, wig, and all. I am certain my body will look better because I am thinner, but I wonder how my face will look having shed all the fat in my face. I have a chiseled Mount Rushmore style jawline now amongst other things, so I wonder if my face being more sculpted and angular will be for the worse.

    However, I am fortunate I won't come across as a built, muscular Amazon woman with a beer belly and double chin going when I am dressed up anymore.

  18. #43
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    Yeah it sounds like you've got a slighter build than me. At 5'10" and 9% body fat, I'm still 165 lbs when fully stripped. To really get thinner I think I'd have to burn off muscle which would probably feminize my body some but I'm not sure I'm ready to do that. I do enjoy having the muscle definition and so forth, but the bulk I've gained makes dressing a bit tougher.

  19. #44
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    Once again we are in a debate with no definitive answer because we simply do not have the data to know what is the norm ( in its true statistical sense)
    I would hope that Jennifer is right and most SO's are supportive, but I simply do not have the data to say she is right.

  20. #45
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    Statistics...bell curve...deviation (mathematical people).

    I agree there is a good cross section here. We may not hold the sexual fetishists but we seem to run the spectrum. So what is the "norm?" The posts (threads) appear to be more toward the outside of the bell curve as far as accepting/non accepting but I think that is "normal" for most forums. The middle are content and really don't feel they need to say much. I would postulate that th majority here are comfortable in their relationship, either by consent or because they choose to be where they are. While the negatives often do stand out especially to those on the fence (we often look at the possible bad result of any action and tend not to focus on what good could happen), I see just as many "my spouse found out and she is OK as long as..." posts as the ones where brimstone rained down. As far as finding someone while dating, that is a crap shoot in any world. I had a whole bunch of frogs when I was young (they would say the same about me) until one person focused on who they saw IN me. And luckily I have had two like that. Now if I could hit the money lotto the world would be grand. As far as GGs who have posted in the Loved Ones or MtF sections, the far majority are women who really WANT to keep their spouse and learn. But we don't attract GGs as much unfortunately. Personally I think they go to friends for support, not the webz. And this site is an island as many well know. Googles "trans____" and the top sites are sexual (and often pay sites) so "we" get painted as such. If a GG was looking for support, they would have to wade through all the noise. Same with any transperson who is new or confused. It reinforces often that when you are seeking out why (or who) you are the most common answer is a sexual outcast. Maybe the people here are the most tenacious?
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  21. #46
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    Just to add another positive, my wife is supportive of my dressing. She would come along to my trans social group given the opportunity. When I first told her it wasn't plain sailing from the outset, but a few years down the line, it's all good.
    Not to detract from anyone else's bad story, but it's not all doom and gloom for everyone.
    And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom - Anais Nin

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenniferathome View Post
    but clearly staying together is acceptance.
    Perhaps tolerance is a better word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krisi View Post
    I doubt there are many women who honestly feel "Oh goody, my husband is a crossdresser." They put up with it but they would be happier if it just went away.
    ^this.

    And, to answer the original question of the thread. We assume the negative because that's how women generally feel about it. Put an ad in any of the major dating sites, add that you're a crossdresser, and see how many 'accepting' women respond. Really. Write to a bunch, tell them you'd love to date them, and that you would enjoy dressing up as a woman when you two go out.

    Then come back here and tell us the results of how many accepting women you find. Because if there is such acceptance by so many women, surely there will be plenty to be found.

    Again, I challenge anyone who believes in this nonsense to start their own date a crossdresser website or agency. Find all these 'accepting' women and You'll have many thousands of men willing to pay up to join. Just be prepared to be chased down with tar and feathers should you be faking it all.
    I've brought this up several times over the years, if it were so simple that there were all these crossdresser accepting women out there, someone would surely have done it and gotten rich by now. Yet, not a single dating site has done it. Gee, I wonder why? There are gay dating sites, race specific dating sites, kink specific dating sites, but not one genuine straight girl/crossdresser dating site? The only crossdresser dating site that exists is strictly inhabited by men.

    So, where are all these 'accepting' women? Because I work with women, and the single ones always bemoan about the lack of any 'good men' left. Yet, there are surely a good number of us who are nice, eligible potential mates.....with only one particular potential deal breaker: We are crossdressers.
    We're not allowed a lot of links. But here are a couple:
    https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts26662.aspx

    https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts2091335.aspx

    Do a search and there are other threads there when guys ask about this.
    Last edited by sometimes_miss; 09-28-2016 at 01:31 AM.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  23. #48
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    Did you even read these stings from plentyoffish? The clear and overwhelming response is that women are open to it.

    Perhaps you have not considered that there is more to a relationship than cross dressing. Of the million things in a relationship cross dressing may be one. You need to work on the other 999,999 things.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micki_Finn View Post
    ....................: Divorce rates reached their peak in the 1970s and 1980s and have been going down—not up, and not holding steady—ever since. Some 70 percent of folks who got married in the 1990s made it 15 whole years together, a 5 percent increase from the previous two decades. And nearly 75 percent of marriages from the last decade are going to make it to death.
    Has anyone considered that in the 1970s and 1980s people actually got married while in more recent times, many just live together? If you and your partner just live together and don't get married, there is no divorce when you split up.

    Sometimes "statistics" don't mean what they seem to mean.

  25. #50
    Genderfluid Swiftie DanielleLee's Avatar
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    I'm in total agreement with Missi & Krisi. From the original post, what Jennifer calls acceptance, others like us call tolerance.

    Wives aren't jumping at joy over finding out their husbands are cross dressers and support them. They may accept it out of beliefs over marriage vows, financial reasons, kids, etc. It may be they just love their husbands enough to block it out and bury it.

    So while yes, technically, Jennifer is correct based on Merriam-Webster's definitions...

    Simple Definition of acceptance


    • : the act of accepting something or someone
    • : the quality or state of being accepted or acceptable


    Most CDs are accepted by their wives/SOs.

    It's not to say those same SOs are supportive.

    Simple Definition of support



    • : to agree with or approve of (someone or something)
    • : to show that you approve of (someone or something) by doing something
    • : to give help or assistance to (someone or something)


    What many here (dare I say most?) are looking for, is support... not just acceptance. The two words or ideas are used interchangeably and incorrectly at that; but it doesn't change what we know about each others' needs to feel supported.
    Last edited by DanielleLee; 09-28-2016 at 10:03 AM.

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