It's not just crossdressing.

[Julia Cross]

A thought I had this morning while driving to work...

We often say women wear all sorts of men's clothes and are not accused of being crossdressers, or rightfully should be called crossdressers as the are wearing the clothes traditionally meant for the opposite gender. However, when they cross dress, they don't shove something down their pants to pretend, nor do they tape down their breasts or slick back their hair. When we cross dress, we change our appearance as well by adding breasts, a wig, hips, etc. There is a difference.

So, the term crossdresser doesn't deem to really describe the act, or it would seem inappropriate to say that women are crossdressing when they put on their hubbies shirt and pants, as they are not pretending to be that person or another male, while for the most part, MTF crossdressers do seem to change their persona when they cross dress.

Obviously this thought excludes WTM crossdressers who do attempt to be the other gender.

Clear as mud?

Julia

[GypsyKaren]

So true, so true, that's why you'll never see me on the "but woman x-dress all the time bandwagon". I think to many CD'ers try to look for any justification they can find for what they're doing, why they feel the need for it, I don't understand. Perhaps they're still grasping at "issues" of it all, which causes them to grasp at straws in order to feel okay about themselves. Very good point and very good thread, Julia.

Karen

[Cathy Anderson]

...When we cross dress, we change our appearance as well by adding breasts, a wig, hips, etc. There is a difference.

I agree. The term "crossdresser," which defines things in terms of clothes seems inadequate.

So what defines us? It isn't the clothes. Is it the fantasy of being female? If so, where does that come from?

Does "being female" symbolize something? Are there certain, specific feelings and experiences we seek, and which we associate with being female. If so, can we define these things more clearly? Can we obtain them without the "surplus baggage" of actually dressing or interacting in public as women?

Cathy

[kathy gg]

Hi Julia!

Thanks for posting this thread. I hate to say but I do get really exhausted when I see that idea come up and it often does when guys get irrited at what they percieve as a double standard. Also, in case people forget women have only been able to wear pants without hassell in the last 45 years or so . I know my Mom {who is roughly around age 56} actually got sent home from school more than once for wearing jeans to school. They cited inapropriate attire. Of course this only made her even more determined to wear what she wanted.

I went through my baggy clothes phase around 1991-93 where it was fashionable to wear plaid shirts and the grunge look was eaiser to emulate with some guys stuff. But when I bought some guy shirt and shorts I never thought of myself as crossdressing. I certainly did not go out of my way to appear like a guy.

I can understand why the double standard feels like a term that should 'fit' but the reality is most women who do wear/shop and buiy mens clothing do not have interest in actually emulating a male or trying to be accepted as one.

[Laurie Ann]

Very interesting concept. I do agree with it. My wife sometimes wears a shirt or sweater of mine and I don't think she is crossdressing. I on the other hand am a crossdresser and do try to change my appearence to be feminine.

[Julia Cross]

...so perhaps wearing an item of clothing of the opposite gender that is truly meant for that gender is more inline with crossdressing whereas wearing an item less obvious, say jeans is not. Then again, i can't think of an item of clothing that a woman would wear of men's typical clothing that wouldn't be totally acceptable on her, whereas there are numerous items she has that are considered unacceptable for us to wear. Perhaps our styles are so limited and already have all crossed over that women can wear any of them but many of theirs have yet to crossover to men's apparel. Oh how confusing and frustrating. i just want to wear what I want to wear.

Julia

[Kimberley]

I agree with this in the context of practical fashion. However as Kathy pointed out (and I come from her mother's genre) that it was unacceptable in the 50's for girls to dress in jeans. In the end it was the media and fashion gurus who did make it acceptable and women jumped on the bandwagon in droves. It became the end of the Ozzie and Harriet and Donna Reid age.

I think this is important in an historical context only, not as justification.

The question that begs to be asked now is; What would happen if suddenly boys started wearing girls skirts and dresses to school? What would be the result? Would it be crossdressing or fashion? Would the fashion world start producing pret a porte skirts and dresses for men? Would society accept it?

No, there is a double standard and it goes much deeper than fashion I am afraid. Think of the responses given in another thread about the attitudes of women GG's about us as cross dressers. Can we say Ewwwww?

Just my opinions.
Kimberley.

[melissacd]

The point is well taken regarding certain aspects of cross dressing (bras, breast forms, gaffs) , however, I am pretty sure that if you remove those couple of things from the equation the prejudice and double standard would still exist. If men wear dresses, more feminine hair styles, clothing, accessories, make up, nails and shaved body, I am afraid that the response would still be the same and the double standard would still exist.

Certainly using a gaff, bra and breast forms take CDing beyond what a woman does now when she wears more traditionally male attire, but I think losing those CD behaviours is not enough. There is still great prejudice against males dressing in feminine style.

[Amelie]

The answer is in Kathy's thread. She said her mom had trouble dressing the way she wanted to dress(wearing pants), but this made Kathy's mom more determined to dress the way she wanted to. This is the same for men today, especially the younger men. OK, I understand the hardships older guys have trying to dress the way they want. But todays young guys can do what Kathy's mom did and be determined to dress the way they want. I know some will say but society doesn't like it and guys will get beat up if they dress in fem. Maybe in some rough parts of the world yes this could happen. But goths and punks have been dressing different for years, some goth guys do wear dresses and skirts. They take heat for this but they stll go on dressing the way they want. I am not saying that everyone can dres the way they want, but GGs can't always dress the way they want either. I have known some girls to be afraid to dress in a short skirt because the neighborhood was too dangerous, not all women are free to dress the way they want, some have fears of violence just like CDs have.

[JoAnnDallas]

My neice wears men's shirts and joking says she is a crossdresser. The real reason is it is cheaper to get mens shirts cleaned at a dry cleaners than it does for woman's blouses. Reason is the pressing machine that most of them use is desgined for men's shirts. She can get her men's shirts dry cleaned for < $1 a shirt. Her blouses will cost her $2-3 each to get cleaned.

[Ms. Donna]

The problem here is that we have taken something one does (crossdressing) and and turned it into something one is (a crossdresser). We talk not about 'crossdressing' the activity, but about dentifying ourselves - and others - as 'a crossdresser'. No longer a means to an end, crossdressing has become the end in itself.

There are many reasons why someone might crossdress. That single activity, however, is not the sum total of what someone is. Technically, if a woman puts on a pair of men's boxers or BWBs, one could say she is 'crossdressing' - we would not, however, consider her a 'crossdresser'. If a man wears a blouse simply because he likes the colors, he is 'crossdressing' but not necessarily a 'crossdresser'. Why is that?

And yet, if one of us puts on a pair of panties, we are a 'crossdresser'. Why? What is it that makes the distinction?

It is the intent behind the action that makes the difference. As a rule, we do what we do not for comfort, practicality, or even sartorial creativity. We have an agenda, a purpose. We crossdress to present ourselves as women - or to express what we like to call our 'feminine' side - or simply because whatever we want to call ourselves, crossdressing allows us to express that.

Rather than say, for example, "I'm transgendered and I crossdress as a way to express that aspect of my persona." - we will say "I'm a crossdresser." The implication here being that the signifier 'crossdresser' carries with a set of culturally defines assumptions - much as 'man & 'woman' do - applicable only to a specific group of individuals - those gendered at birth as 'men' but who present themselves in a way traditionally associated with women. It is for this reason that women 'crossdressing' are not 'crossdressers'. It is not an appropriate label as it incorrectly signifies menbership in a group to which they do not belong.

Of course, this all works the same (in reverse kinda-sorta) for our F2M brothers.

In the end, it had very little to do with the actual clothes and everything to do with the message one trying to send.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Sophia Rearen]

When we cross dress, we change our appearance as well by adding breasts, a wig, hips, etc. There is a difference.

Clear as mud?

Julia

Nope, sorry Julia, myth busted. Lets say I don't have the time to "get all dolled up" as my wife likes to say. So, I just put on a nice feeling dress, maybe some earrings, other jewelry and perhaps a spritz of perfume on the wrists. No wig, no makeup, no breast forms, no padding, it's built in anyway. Am I not crossdressing? But, if I did want to go out and present myself nicely as a woman, I would include all of the above, except padding, again, and I would be crossdressed?

Where do you draw the line on what is and is not crossdressing?


All muddied up, for sure!

[Veronica E. Scott]

I think that we are trying to bercome the woman within and that includes wearing a wig false breasts and what ever to accomplish the image in our heads of the woman we want to be.

The more I dress and and try to find the perfect image I want the more I look like my Mother,sounds crazy but true.

[Megan72]

A thought I had this morning while driving to work...

We often say women wear all sorts of men's clothes and are not accused of being crossdressers, or rightfully should be called crossdressers as the are wearing the clothes traditionally meant for the opposite gender. However, when they cross dress, they don't shove something down their pants to pretend, nor do they tape down their breasts or slick back their hair. When we cross dress, we change our appearance as well by adding breasts, a wig, hips, etc. There is a difference.

So, the term crossdresser doesn't deem to really describe the act, or it would seem inappropriate to say that women are crossdressing when they put on their hubbies shirt and pants, as they are not pretending to be that person or another male, while for the most part, MTF crossdressers do seem to change their persona when they cross dress.

Obviously this thought excludes WTM crossdressers who do attempt to be the other gender.

Clear as mud?

Julia

Bravo Julia. Very good points!!

[calliekat]

Nice post, and can start a big debate. I for one, have been one of the people that posted that "women can wear mens clothes and not be ridiculed by society" and its a double standard.
I am not a full fledged dresser. I don't wear wigs, I don't wear gaffs, I don't pad, I don't shave my body or legs, and I don't wear make up.
I love to wear skirts because I like the "freedom" my legs feel rather then the constraining pants. But I only wear this in my house, and not when people are over. With them, I wear panties, again this is just a comfort thing as I have become used to the feel of them and not mens underwear.
With the skirt, I wear a mans shirt of any kind. Sometimes a "mans" sweater too. I'm often found with my hair a mess, and a days worth of facial growth.
So what am I?
One thing for sure, I don't fit into the full dressing category as most posters here... I feel like a black sheep in this forum because of that!

[ReginaK]

No, there is a double standard and it goes much deeper than fashion I am afraid. Think of the responses given in another thread about the attitudes of women GG's about us as cross dressers. Can we say Ewwwww?

Just my opinions.
Kimberley.

Much deeper indeed. It's not so much the clothes that bothers people. It's the motivation behind the clothes. From my experience, people are much more accepting of crossdressing men when they think it's just a sexual fetish or done for entertainment. Plenty of high profile men in Hollywood have worn dresses and aside from the initial shock, no one has been bothered by it. Drag queens are privy to the same treatment. No one really thinks anything of them. They're just fun to look at.

That changes with crossdressers like us. We're not doing it to entertain others, so that pretty much baffles society. So many people are convinced that men have it so good in society, that "lowering" himself to the level of a woman is either just for entertainment or he has serious issues.

Now comes the real double standard. The standard is not in the clothes, but in the meaning for which the clothes had (or still have). For a woman, doning masculine attire (not imitating a male, but just wearing the clothes) is seen by society as an ascention up the social ladder. Something we as a whole usually applaud.

When a male dons feminine attire, society sees someone willfully giving up a high social position. They see a man debasing himself. And the fact we go through so much to be extra feminine, it just furthur proves to them that this goes beyond simple entertainment into the realm of deliberacy. And society doesn't like that. Especially in American society where many people have fought and died for the same rights and privileges of the prototypical American man.

Too put it simply, blacks, gays, and women all fought for the same position that the average American male was granted with. They look at the male crossdresser and think, "He has to be crazy to throw that away!" No one will admit to it, but that's what's really going on.

[Jennaie]

I remember one time about 23 years ago, I was at the enlisted mens club on a navy base wearing a pinpoint oxford pastel pink mens dress shirt. I thought the shirt looked very good on me. One of my shipmates joined me for a beer. During our conversation he interupted with "can I ask you a personal question?". I said, "of course you can". He then looked me in the eye and ask me why I was wearing a pink shirt. I was shocked. I did not know how to respond to this. I did not even believe that a person could view what I was wearing as feminine. I thought for a moment and replied, "it is a mans shirt and I thought it looked good on me when I bought it.

As for wearing womens clothes without hip pads and forms etc..., I just don't think I look good in a dress without my forms.:cheeky:

[Rikkicn]

Perhaps if we were having this discussion 40-50 years ago the idea of women wearing pants, boxers, short hair etc would have been very different. Women were acused of being manly if they wore those things. Perhaps women choose to wear pants because they felt more powerful or capable or more protected. Could have been more comfortable or warmer. Anyway, I'm guessing they may have felt more masculine in a way.
Women wearing men's clothing has become normalized over the last 50 years and it doesn't shock anyone anymore. So, I'm not quite sure that it wasn't cross dressing of some sort.
I think there may a double standard in a way. Over all most cultures are for more repressive to men that cross the gender barrier than women. From what I understand about this, it's because a man giving up power and first class citizenship to become women or women like is a big issue to the MEN that make and govern the laws.
Most all countries have bigger penalties for gay men then lesbian for breaking laws. Gay men having sex may go to jail for 20 years and lesbian having sex go to jaif for 5 years...just an example.
I know many of you will say that is about homosexuality not cross dressing..but to most of the world the are in the same arena.
Just my opnion
Love to you all and thanks for the thoughtful posts..this is a great site
Rikki

[Gwen]

I can see from this thread that many Crossdressers think of themselves as all the same. I am greatly offended by Karen's comment:

...I think to many CD'ers try to look for any justification they can find for what they're doing, why they feel the need for it, I don't understand. Perhaps they're still grasping at "issues" of it all, which causes them to grasp at straws in order to feel okay about themselves.
Karen

I don't still have internal issues about my cross dressing that I'm still trying to resolve. It is no more and no less a matter of taste and "there is no accounting for taste," period. But here's the hitch. The only thing Crossdressers have in common is the fact that we cross dress. Even how each of us is motivated to cross dress is as different as a fingerprint. While there are similarities we are still all different.

I for one put on women's clothes when I get home from work. I find the change refreshing and relaxing. I have observed the same behavior in GGs. They come home and change from their dress into pants, etc. to relax and breath. The difference is GGs can wear the pants into public without giving it a thought. If I wear a skirt into public I'm a sissy and a Crossdresser and I must be gay. There clearly is a double standard in our society. Sorry to disagree with you on this one Kathy. But let me add, there are some CDers who are motivated to take their crossdressing to a point of "passing." The idea of that is fascinating and the fact is that there are both men and women who attempt cross dressing at this extreme.

The point I'm attempting to illustrate is that one cannot say that all Crossdressers are the same in their motivation and then exclude women who where men's shirts as not being crossdressers. To cross dress is to wear the clothes of the opposite sex whatever their motivation. If a GG wants to distinguish that they are not ever personnally motivated to pass as a man and some men they know are at times motivated to pass as a woman then I can agree but to group GGs and CDs into general catagories and then to make specific conclusions about that information is poor reasoning and it is hurtful. Noone can rationally deny that there is a double standard in our society.

I for one kind of enjoy that this is an important rule in our society. For a man to cross dress is one of societies best kept secrets. For that reason much is risked if a man cross dresses. Catch a woman in men's clothes - who cares. Catch a man in a dress - what risk! That makes cross dressing exciting for a man. While I envy women for being able to freely switch between men's or women's clothes in public I feel sorry for women that they can't experience the excitement men do crossing that line and pushing our emotional limit. Wow, exciting!

-Gwen

[Yes I am]

...

I for one kind of enjoy that this is an important rule in our society. For a man to cross dress is one of societies best kept secrets. For that reason much is risked if a man cross dresses. Catch a woman in men's clothes - who cares. Catch a man in a dress - what risk! That makes cross dressing exciting for a man. While I envy women for being able to freely switch between men's or women's clothes in public I feel sorry for women that they can't experience the excitement men do crossing that line and pushing our emotional limit. Wow, exciting!

-Gwen

My approach to crossdressing is a lot like this. What I enjoy is not passing for a female, but still trying to look good in female attire.

[Rikkicn]

Perhaps if we were having this discussion 40-50 years ago the idea of women wearing pants, boxers, short hair etc would have been very different. Women were acused of being manly if they wore those things. Perhaps women choose to wear pants because they felt more powerful or capable or more protected. Could have been more comfortable or warmer. Anyway, I'm guessing they may have felt more masculine in a way.
Women wearing men's clothing has become normalized over the last 50 years and it doesn't shock anyone anymore. So, I'm not quite sure that it wasn't cross dressing of some sort.
I think there may a double standard in a way. Over all most cultures are for more repressive to men that cross the gender barrier than women. From what I understand about this, it's because a man giving up power and first class citizenship to become women or women like is a big issue to the MEN that make and govern the laws.
Most all countries have bigger penalties for gay men then lesbian for breaking laws. Gay men having sex may go to jail for 20 years and lesbian having sex go to jail for 5 years...just an example.
I know many of you will say that is about homosexuality not cross dressing..but to most of the world they are in the same arena.
Just my opnion
Love to you all and thanks for the thoughtful posts..this is a great site
Rikki

[ToyGirl]

why do womens boyleg briefs (the ones that have the opening at the front and everything) look so good. Why do women even want to wear replicas of boys underwear. Why is there no male equivalent of this.

Boys (not men) often look feminine , a girl dressed in mens clothing , often looks like a young boy. Yet a man in womens clothing?

Who's to say in the next 100 years it wont change , it allready is . Moisterizing , having nice nails , hair products , hair dye and even make-up has become quite acceptable for men in the last 20 years.

This topic is bottomless , and i agree everyone is different.

[Victoria Pink]

As I get older and find myself dressing more, I've come to conclusion that its a non-ending argument to compare myself wearing a dress to a girl wearing jeans. The fact of the matter is I am who I am. I enjoy wearing a dress, and I enjoy being a feminine person. It's not an act of doing that makes me feel good, its an act of "being". For me it is a part of me that wants and needs to come out. If it doesn't I get quite frustrated.

So... I don't ponder the question anymore. I dress when I can, I keep it private except for sharing with my wife, and I've developed myself to the point where I can feel comfortable going out in public as a woman.

Victoria

[Falcor]

As a bit of a dill,i swim in simpliity,therefore,,
I feel crossdressing is exclusive to men,there is very little fantasy or stress/confusion relief in fems wearing mens clothing.
As for for my desire to frock up,Iwas mean,t to be born female,I wasn,t so I make do...simple and honest.
cheers,falxx

[Kitty Sue]

Excellent points. I guess I crossdress as that is part of my who I am. I think that it may have something to do with both genetics and environment.