Don't get marrried unless your SO is all in!

[phili]

I've been thinking about the built in tragedy that marriage can be made pretty sound and successful despite not including crossdressing. So we do it, figuring that crossdressing is just a small part of us, so we'll get along fine, and we are grateful to find a marriage partner in the first place. I'm guessing we harbor the idea that the one we marry will eventually come around to understanding and accepting us crossdressing. That, quite apparently, does not generally happen.

I'll propose here the thought experiment- don't get married, if you are a crossdresser, unless you won't have to be in the closet. What this means is that we need to be our full selves when we court our marriage partners, and need to know what crossdressing means to us, why we do it, be doing it, and ensure we do not have any hidden pieces of ourselves, as these can be so easily underestimated with regard to their long term impact.

It seems that around 10% of women can understand and tolerate crossdressing without rancor, and that is good odds, and is probably a very good starting screen for partners. Women generally will not prefer crossdressers, just like marrying out of race or culture is usually not a preference. We need a partner who can accept crossdressing, given strong mutual agreement on a lot of other issues, and for whom it doesn't trigger fear. They would need to accept it fully at home, with support for the social complexities that being out entails. This is all an indicator of a really strong personality, independent thinking, willingness to endure social stress, etc. This is a select group, and within that 10% [or 5%-whatever] we can then find women who feel roughly the same as we do about money, child-rearing, politics, etc..

Now that I have said this, I think it is patently obvious that having gender freedom at the core of shared understanding will very likely result in better compatibility and shared goals on all other subjects. I think today I would say to any unmarried crossdressers- put it out there fully,and say it is something of a mystery, and you need your partner to be able to navigate it with you. People want us to know who we are, so the mystery part is a weak point, but if we are fully out, and are talking about it, the mystery goes away for the most part.

Thoughts?

[Lydianne]

Greetings, Phili!

I don't know what the coming-out-to-SO success rate is, but I've certainly heard more DADT cases than fully supportive cases here.

I think the "SO all in" condition reduces to your last paragraph i.e. "being fully out" because how else would you find out his/her level of acceptance without potentially completely outing yourself? - and it is more likely to happen than not.

The holy grail would be to find the potential SO who is completely supportive of CDing in your first relationship, and then you can control your own outing to others. However, even in the absence of CDing, how often does the first relationship become the marriage?

So at some point, one is going to have to ask the question. Considering the DADT / fully supportive ratio that I've seen here --and I appreciate that we are not a representative sample of worldwide CDing-- the new relationship will probably break up because of that revelation. Then you'd probably get outed when the ex partner gets asked why they broke up with you.

At least, that's the way I view it .

[Stephanie47]

The only problem with your analysis of a blissful marriage is the fact spouses will change. I will agree it is best to be upfront with this little 'quirk.' Then the issue arises as to 'when' does a cross dresser let the 'quirk' out of the bag. Sounds as if the safest way is to advertised in the personal column that you're a cross dresser looking for a woman. See how that is going to work out. Does a cross dresser troll on the Internet or his church, his social club, the bowling league? Before the first cup of coffee? After the first date or kiss? How far in does one go into a relationship before the 'reveal?'

And, after the 'reveal' what happens? "Oh honey, that's cute! Let's doll you up and live happily ever after!" Or, does she head for the front door or toss a drink in your face and spread the word? Those are real possibilities. And, it seems to be widely reported that when a person is swooning over her romantic partner that anything goes until the reality sets in. Is he emulating a woman in private or sitting out every night in the livingroom watching Wheel of Fortune and commenting endlessly on Vanna White's dresses and gowns? Basically, how consuming an activity of expression will this become? Will it dominate the relationship?

Frankly, although I do not recommend intentionally hiding cross dressing, it seems for many of us it has worked out. Why? Because a wife may have come to like the qualities she originally chose the guy. She may have to digest the information for a long time before there is anywhere from toleration to total acceptance and participation. I've read many many comments on this forum of suggesting to "just do it!" without any consideration of the wife's feelings, moral code, beliefs, etc. What do you do if the once accepting wife tires of it all? Real questions for real life.

I'm sure you're going to get many replies to your thread where it has all worked out with prior disclosure before tying the knot. I will be reading to see how many respond with their date heading for the hills.

And your comment that we seek a mate "who feel roughly the same as we do about money, child-rearing, politics, etc.." does not work out 50% of the time.

[Judy-Somthing]

I think people grow up and learn wether (right or wrong) that some part of their personalities are best kept hidden.

I personally know three people obsessed with making money and their family comes second.

People who can't resist having an affair, gambling, stealing, or spending much more than they earn and go in to bankruptcy.

Then there's the so called control freak who wants you to do everything their way and use a belt if you don't.

These are all people I know.

I'm just saying that I don't think cross-dressing is bad, but that's just me, just rambling.

[Jenn A116]

Not sure about "all in" but I'm very happy that I told my (now) wife before we got married. We both met later in life (late 40's/early 50's) and were willing to accept the other as they were, warts and all. I told her about Jenn once I realized she might be "the one". She easily accepted it as just part of who I was. I'm sitting here right now fully dressed (but no makeup/wig) and have been for nearly 24 hours. She occasionally comments about the outfits (as in how nice it looks or suggestions for others) but for the most part me being dressed is a non-event.

[sweetdreams]

I've posted much of my history in another post (https://www.crossdressers.com/forums...#post4060442); My life came apart when I was about 40 years old, I vowed to not get involved in a relationship that didn't accommodate my CDing. I've shared this with 3 GGs in my life and never had a flat out rejection. It's worked out pretty well overall.

There is always the question of when do you bring this up to someone you are having a relationship with. This is not a question of if, you absolutely must in my opinion. My thoughts on when are when things start getting serious. After 3 or 4 months of dating you should know if this relationship is going to have a chance, or certainly before your worlds start to merge (i.e. moving in together, getting engaged, etc.). You owe it to the other person and yourself to get this out in the open before major commitments are made, don't leave it too long. The more time that passes, the more it will hurt if things don't go well. If you CD you have to own it and share it with the person you are going to have a long term intimate relationship with. If you waffle on this responsibility you will very likely regret it farther down the road.

NEVER, EVER, EVER assume someone is going to be OK with this just because you are married. CDing can be a major hurdle in a relationship. It is more likely to end a relationship than to be accepted.

I certainly wouldn't run a personal ad on the internet saying something like "crossdresser seeking understanding female." I think you need to establish the relationship first, making sure there is common interest, values, etc., and then share your secret. I wouldn't share it on the first couple of dates. Of course this depends on the situation. There are no hard and fast rules. Use your judgement, but do get it out there before things go too far.

[StephanieM]

Much easier said than done if you ask me.
I came out to my current wife before we got married so that has helped. It was difficult and dealing with the fear of losing someone you love sometimes make you think you can keep it a secret, or think that I'll quit because I love her. Well it turns out those 2 options cause more pain than just coming out. I'm lucky that my wife doesn't mind and sometimes will have fun with it. Best decision in my life was to come clean before we said "I do" that way I can say she chose to accept this and is now stuck with it. I did tell her she never has to worry about me trying to get in another woman's panties because I have my own.

It's still good advice my comment wasn't meant to say that it wasn't, was just commenting on it.

[sometimes_miss]

I think the 10% thing is pretty optimistic. There's no indication anywhere that there are anywhere near that many women who will accept a crossdressing male as a husband. I don't have any recent stats, but of course, because of how many of us are in the closet, we wouldn't know if they'd be accurate anyway. What I found back in the 90's was this, and I found the 'in reality it's about half', interesting. 6% of women thought it was ok for a man to crossdress, but didn't want one as a friend or mate. 3% would consider it acceptable for a someone in their family to be a crossdresser. 1.5% would consider a crossdresser acceptable as a mate. When I went to therapists, however, they told me that about half the wives that had come in with their crossdressing mates, who had originally thought that they could handle it, could not. That leaves us with 0.75% of women who would even tolerate being the mate of a crossdresser, not saying how many might be enthusiastic about it. In the past few years, threads have popped up, asking about our wives and how many were happy that their husbands were crossdressers. The answer was almost always, just a few. It's almost always a DADT situation. This has basically been proven by marketing. If indeed there were a significant number of women who would willingly accept a crossdresser for a mate, there would be active dating sites where you could find a woman who would be 'crossdresser friendly'. Why? Because many of us would be considered very good 'catches' if not for the crossdressing. Yet, there are no such dating sites for straight girls/crossdressers. No night clubs either. Nothing. So, there's simply no viable market for it. No market means no women. There are plenty of us who would gladly fork over a substantial fee to meet women who would be good with our crossdressing; if there were indeed all these crossdresser friendly women out there, it would be a very lucrative business matching us up with them, so there would be entrepreneurs lining up to open such a business. The fact that there are not, indicates that those women simply don't exist in any significant number.

[StephanieM]

I agree they are rare but I know 2, one is my wife, and one is my step mother. My dad is a CD and she has accepted him for almost 40 years now.

[Leslie Langford]

Noble thoughts indeed, phili, and in a perfect, orderly, and rational world your approach would make absolute sense. Here's the thing, though - we do not live in a perfect, orderly, and rational world where the outcomes are always predictable and as expected. We are dealing with imperfect human beings here - ourselves, our wives or SO's , our families, our co-workers etc....all of us flawed creatures who - while perhaps usually well-intentioned, often screw up because we are either in denial, have succumbed to wishful thinking, or have otherwise let our emotions trump our logical thinking. The harsh reality is that the real world can be a messy place where not everything goes according to plan, and where there is always a happy ending where the "good guys" are vindicated .

I agree 100% with Stephanie47, and being of her generation (age late 60's) as well, I know exactly where she is coming from. When we were young, there was no such thing as the Internet to help us figure out who/what we were or to provide the ability to connect with others as this forum has allowed us to do. Crossdressing was rarely spoken of - if at all - when we were growing up during the 1950's (hate that term "back in the day", BTW), and those people who engaged in it were known as "transvestites" - a clinical term that denoted a form of mental illness, if not outright perversion or depravity. So of course, we hid deep in the closet. Even homosexually was somewhat better accepted than crossdressing back then - albeit only marginally - and even then, people were harassed, jailed, were subject to blackmail, and often had their means of livelihood taken away from them when accused of - or were "outed" for - being "different the way we were. And yet, we still felt normal enough otherwise, still felt an attraction towards the opposite sex, and still had a desire to marry and establish families with them, even if for some weird reason we also had a "thing" for their clothes. Go figure...

Of course, knowing what I know now - and given how society has evolved since those dark days - there is no question that I would have made full disclosure to my future wife before marrying her if I had to do it all over again. But that was then, and this is now. So please don't lump us "oldsters" in with the current generation who have a far wider range of choices to "do the right thing" than we ever did. And if they don't, it's all on them, and they needn't come to the likes of Stephanie and myself to participate in their pity parties.

[~Joanne~]

I agree that we shouldn't get married without putting all the cards on the table, but with that said sometimes you don't get the "cards" until your already married X number of years. At the time you got married, you may not have even consider crossdressing at that point. Granted a lot of us knew from an early age, we struggle with accepting it and hope that marriage will "cure" it. There are a lot of factors that go into everything we do, maybe not the right ones but they do. We always don't make the right choices. I am not disagreeing with you though, if you know your a CD, it should be out there before you walk the asile because, and I speak for myself here, I want to make sure the person I am heading towards is the person that means everything to me and I the same for her.

[StephanieM]

Granted a lot of us knew from an early age, we struggle with accepting it and hope that marriage will "cure" it.

Yes it's amazing how common that is among us. I honestly did believe marriage would cure it, boy was I wrong.

[KristinaK]

My wife knew I liked to dress up on Halloween.. (It was one of the pics I had on my dating profile, yes we met on a dating site). At that time, that's all I did. It wasn't until several years later, that I got the urge started and I talked with my wife about it. She has been very supportive of it while we both adjust to the change in me. It's been a compromise and shift in our relationship. It takes time and compromise and therapy helps (we both go to individual, and tried couples, but the therapist didn't work out... still haven't found another)

[Sharon B.]

I think back now the only information a lot of us older folks got was going to the library and that was limited on what what we could find out at the time. I didn't tell my soon to be wife at the time, we were married for a good nine years before I told her a year later we were divorced. I have met a few woman since then and have told some why I got divorced it didn't go over too well. Probably why I am still single after twenty six years, at least I can keep my body hair free nail polish on my toenails and dress whenever I want to.
I would like to find an understanding woman to be her part-time girl friend to go shopping with. Until then I will enjoy my time being a woman whenever I want to.

[Allison Chaynes]

I asked my wife, if You knew about this before we were married, would we be married now? Her answer was No. But people do change. She's more accepting of me now that she is also more accepting of her own kinks and quirks. So, ideally, yes, it'd be great to have all your cards on the table at the start, but it doesn't 100% guarantee anything.

[Alaina R]

I agree that it is too important an issue to not fully explore with your potential mate before marriage. I sympathize with guys who did not do that and regret it later, especially those who were young and dumb (as most of us are in our 20's). Because crossdressing is a big part of my sexuality I never tried to have a relationship without telling my partner but the fear of exposure did several times make me shy away from getting involved. I did have a girlfriend in college who had zero problem with my crossdressing but later I dated some women where the dressing created a serious barrier. I do remember knowing a girl at work who casually suggested I dressup several times (she did not know). We dated a little and liked one another but I so feared being exposed at work (this is 40 years ago) that I did not pursue the relationship and never let her know my real interest. In retrospect, I was a pretty dumb guy.
When I was in my 40's I was somewhat serious with a woman who hated the crossdressing; that made for a miserable situation where I was made to feel like I was defective and the cause of all our problems. That is no way to live. After that ended, I decided that I either find someone who is comfortable with me as I am or I will spend the rest of my life by myself (except for my pets). It's a shame that it can take years to become mature enough and realistic enough about yourself to deal with life as it is and not as you wish it were. In my case, I was extraordinary lucky and found a woman who loves male crossdressing only months after I had made my vow to stay single if necessary. We clicked on other levels as well and have now been married for 15 years. Overall, I agree that it is difficult to find women who are comfortable with male crossdressing but it is not impossible. That was true 40 years ago and is likely more true now.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Phipi Too Little To Late for so many......

[Lana Mae]

Like most here started at young age to wear panties! Again as a teen! Had no idea what this all was! Asked wife before we got married, only one female in relationship! Put on hold during marriage and only wore panties 2 or 3 times in 34+ years of marriage! Free to dress almost any time I want! Not looking for another at this point! Hugs Lana Mae

[Becky Blue]

Phili, if only it were that simple... What about the very common situation where the husband changes. Take myself as an example, started dressing at 12, had no feminine side to me and was what they would call a classic CD. i had no desire to dress, putting on items of woman's clothing for me was a kind of hobby. When I met my future wife there was absolutely no reason for me to tell her that once in a blue moon when the opportunity strikes I may put on items of woman's clothing.

Between the time I got married and age 40 perhaps I partially dressed maybe 8 times in 14 years. Then at 40 everything changed, very suddenly I had to dress and that when Becky emerged and I realised that I was more than a CD... so now what happens? Do i now get her on board? What if she was on board with a CD but not with someone who wants to dress a lot and has developed a female persona?

What if I had told her back at the get go and she was ok with me dressing once on a while, then 40 hits now what? I am sure there are many people here who have been at the same level their whole lives. But if we are getting our wives on board how do we know if we will be the same or changing?

[phili]

Thanks, everyone for all the various replies. Based on this, the members are split between- 'just get it all on the table' and 'just hide it or you'll not likely have a relationship' . It was an interesting twist to have it pointed out that some crossdressers don't feel it is critical behavior until later, so hiding it is then reasonable as well- since it is clearly outlier behavior, and SOs will generally only tolerate it within certain bounds, which we may feel are acceptable overall, considering the weakness of our position.

There is also the separate issue of when CDing is the tip of the transition iceberg, which of course it would be better to try to decide before getting married.

It is pointed out that CDing is a mysterious business, resistant to much elucidation, and maybe that murkiness is a valuable defense as a mitigating factor for sympathetic SOs. which hopefully we will marry. However, I can attest that even after really focusing on the diverse personality strands that are involved for me, and being better able to clarify the whys and whens for me- my overall sympathetic wife still has to do an exhaustive remodel of her conscious and unconscious mindsets to be able to accept it anyway. It isn't something she is eager or even willing to do. Much easier to say I am the social outlier and it is not her problem to solve. I did tell her before we got married, but she interpreted it as some tiny bedroom play thing and therefore not a problem. She says that my proposal here is right, and that the CDer needs to tell all about what they mean and show it, so there is no confusion. If I had to lay odds, I would say she still would have married me, but she would have been placing rules earlier and more precisely to keep her world livable.

I'd say the takeaway from group opinion is that before you tie the knot, at least probe your SOs POV to see how radioactive the subject is, as it at least alerts you to the risks. We don't have a poll on the divorce risk, but it is clearly significant. Since that is catastrophic loss, at which point we are either alone or do have to find another SO who does accept us- means to me that the best practice is to wait to tell until you have cemented a strong relationship on your persoaltell what you know to your fiancée, in full measure, and to say there is some risk of it evolving in some direction of more femininity. The important intro is that there is a hidden part of you, but the hidden muddled part is part of what makes you the person they are considering marrying. And then just sit there with them while their internal gears whir and they recalculate their risks from marrying you!

All my girlfriends accepted basic underdressing and occasional babydoll wearing in bed, and I think that is the acceptable level for many women- since it doesn't threaten the most basis division of labor and roles, and is perceivable as play acting to relieve curiosity. It is sad that that doesn't turn out to address the urge sufficiently! But that is why we need to peel one more layer off the onion if we can before we get married, IMO.

[ClosetED]

I have been married over 27 years, so there was not much available to know about CDing and what it meant and prognosis. One of the best suppressors of CDing desire is falling in love. I had a suitcase of stuff and dressed most nights in private. Once I meant my wife, all desire left me and I thought I was cured, because I did not know it is almost never cured. That lasted 2 years, and likely having a child by then and her full attention diverted away from me was the cause. Just part of life. And as the kids began to move out to college, another part of life changed so I began to focus more on my needs over their needs. And so CDing desire increased further.
Currently, I would suggest dating couples talk about this before marriage. But my wife recently changed drastically, and while she said previously she would not have married me if she had known, she might give a new answer today.
Hugs, Ellen

[Meghan4now]

Everyone has written so much. Self denial.

[TrishaTX]

I don't think I fully knew to be honest. I had such a broken childhood, I always thought when someone really loved me this would all stop. of course it did for a period of timed the in comes back with a vengeance. Just a a look at something I wanted to wear or the feel of something turned me right back towards what I am today. It took me until my 40s to really know this was an important part of me that wasn't going away. I with I had gotten therapy etc at a much earlier age, I would have been much healthier from a mental prospective,

back to the subject at hand, I might have had I known the full story but I didn't . I agree I should have been honest about where I was at the time, that was my big miss...

[sweetdreams]

So some of the estimates on how many males crossdress is generally in the low single digits (a few percent). Sometimes_miss, if your guesstimates are somewhat accurate then there are about the same number of accepting females. All we have to do is get everyone together.....

[biannne]

I really think that more women are accepting of men or who crossdress. In most case crossdressing is only revealed to you SO after the marriage. And then majority of women feel that you have betrayed and lied to them. From there they loose that trust.
Those men that come out reveal their crossdressing side before marriage or having a relationship have a much better success rate then those wait after the marriage.