Who suffers most from DADT ?

[Teresa]

I know some members are going to say that a DADT situation keeps their marriage/ partnership amicable and ticking along.

I'm afraid I don't see it like that, to me it stifles conversation on any connected subject, be it sexual, gender issues and anything to do with clothes especially female. It also means that a whole chunk of my being doesn't exist to my wife, part of what I was born with has no place in her life . I could ask the question at this point of how many would treat our wives in similar circumstances, how hurt would they feel ?

DADT is counterproductive and destructive, once your wife / partner has gone down that road they place themselves in a situation where they have to keep that facade up. They adopt it in the hope it will stop our CDing dead , so has it worked well not in my case . It hasn't stopped my need to CD, it hasn't stopped me finding support here , or finding support through another CDer. It hasn't stopped me driving out my drive dressed in broad daylight and going to meet others in a hotel Despite refusing to help with any aspect of dressing it hasn't stopped me doing my own shopping for clothes, shoes and makeup.
Despite DADT the circle of people that know is expanding rapidly and encroaching closer to home , some might accuse me of not being honest about that but that's only through DADT.. I would like to be totally honest and open about the situation now . Rogina and Zooey were are both advocates of being totally honest with yourself first, being honest with the rest becomes easier, OK most of us know it isn't as easy as that but it should be .

To come back to the question I believe my wife is suffering more through DADT than I am, trying to stop the impossible is impossible, the female trait in my brain is immovable , I'm far happier coming to terms with it than she is trying to stop it.
Instead of doggedly sticking to the idea of getting the man she married back , accepting my CDing could possibly renew and revitalise our marriage. Instead DADT is slowly driving a wedge into it , we are clinging onto the compromises we made when we nearly separated , I'm afraid they will turn out to be a temporary solution , underneath I think we both know this.

It may appear I want to walk away from my marriage, it's not the case . We have 43 years behind us, two great children and three lovely grandchildren, I want to be there for them, I'm sure my wife also wants that, her terms are at times almost unworkable. I also want to be happy among my family but there is too much unhappiness through DADT !

[Sandy Storm]

I can cayenne only come from my personal experience, I've been with my wife since 1984 and if I would've told her about my cross dressing before we we're married or shortly after would have probably never been married .... here in the deep South especially back then the stigma that went with it would have destroyed us.. but as we've matured and became more comfortable with each other I was able to tell her and she really did not have a problem with it ...she hated that I had a secret but being a smart woman she understood why I had to have a secret for her for me for us

[NancySue]

I can't relate because it was exactly for mentioned reasons, that I took the leap of faith and told her before the " I do's"...totally expecting her to bold to the nearest exit. She initially thought I was bi or gay, which she couldn't believe, (football, etc.) but did agree to talk about it, do some reading, etc. After a lengthy period of time, she, as I, couldn't, find any "whys, hows, etc. I believe her "acceptance" was due to my courage, risk and honesty. That was many years ago. We still don't understand how I can't wait to "put on...what she can't wait to take off". We both have a sense of humor and we kid each other about my dressing. Thankfully, she is and has been very supportive.
You and your wife appear to have a solid relationship, but I don't understand her "unworkable terms" . Could it be, she is putting restrictions on you to "punish" you? Many wives of DADT do.
I hope you two can work your issues out. We did and it worked for us. Hopefully, it will work for you. Best.

[Teresa]

Nancy,
Maybe DADT should be relabeled "to punish" but at times it does feel like that, it mostly has a sting in the tail and hurts her as much when it pricks her conscience !

She has commented on the courage I must have to go out dressed, I feel she does respect me for the conviction to do it.

[LeannS]

Teresa
I believe both parties are hurt.
I can't share my feeling's about it, show here how the outfit looks and what else it might need to really make it look good.
get help with my makeup (which I really suck at)I would like some help.
She's hurt because I held something back not telling her about my cross dressing
she found out when she opened an envelope that had a skirt in it.
She feels like I lied to her.
She is more concerned about neighbors and others she knows seeing me run around dressed
and she knows a lot of people in our little town

[Vikky]

An interesting question, Teresa. I am in a DADT situation but my wife tolerates it, but doesn’t want to be involved, or see me dressed. Having said that she has from time to time bought a few things for me (new tights and a couple of items from a charity shop), and has asked to see me in the things she has bought. One evening a few years ago we went through my wardrobe with me trying on most things and she made comments. That hasn’t happened since and she has never offered any feminine input or advice.
In an evening if I fancy dressing I will say “I am going upstairs for the usual” and I dress in my office and keep to the upstairs rooms out of her way. I usual finish about 10.00am and get back into drab but if I fancy sleeping en femme, which I do a lot these days, she will comment “Wasn’t that enough”.
She knows I will usually dress if she is out for the evening, but doesn’t comment about it when she gets back in.
Similarly, like this week, she knows I will spend a lot of time dressed while she is away, but she won’t refer to it when she gets back.
Thinking it over, I came to this site when I first started dressing about 5years ago and initially she was more accepting with it and, maybe, thought it would go away. Now she realises it isn’t going away and I try to dress more and have a larger wardrobe, I think she is burying her thoughts about it (very typical of her).
As you your question, I think we both suffer from our situation. I would like her to be more accepting and thus able to dress more around the house, whilst after 40 years plus of our marriage she isn’t part of an important aspect of my personality.
Vikky

PS Re reading this post is prompting me to take the initiative to bring my CDing into our conversations more and see where it leads us.

[Jaylyn]

My wife was very different in that she really accepted it at first. She even get Jaylyn something for Christmas. At first she was very supportive to the idea of me enjoying dressing. It seems though the older we get she is not as into it as once we were. I really think she might have thought it was a novelty that I would grow out of. She has also mentioned that as I'm aging I'm having Less testosterone. I still have plenty but if she thinks I'm running out and am dressing because of less then so be it. I've to.d her I've been doing and enjoying it since I was very young. She seems to dismiss the facts so really I might as well be in a DADT situation. Still she asks if I need anything when she buys makeup. GG are just hard to understand o I just leave it at that. Who knows the answer.

[Rachael Leigh]

Teresa you make some very valid points I think it hurts both parties and like you I find myself wanting to be more open
and there are times I can be but I usually just let it go as to not hurt my wife anymore then I have already.
Like you I'm in a long term marriage 35 years this June and I don't believe diviorce would be in anybody's best interest.
I doubt my wife will ever find a place where she can be as comfortable with my dressing as I am but I do hope we can find
ways to make it fun and not make a tension in our marriage

[Imeni]

Well hell, I reckon my clothes are the ones who suffer most. They were bought under the guise of being worn and if someone "made me" get rid of them or simply not wear them, i should have just left them in the shop.

[Gillian Gigs]

Cd'ing can and often does bring on shame and then sorrow. It's a muddy mess within our culture. So how does anyone deal with these issues? I have found that in confrontations one or a combination of the following happens and can morph into another.
1. fight, whether it is physical, verbal a fight happens.
2. flight, some one gets up and walks out the door. Whether they come back is dependant on several things.
3. ignore, In our many cases it is DADT, They think that if they ignore a problem long enough, it will go away on its own.
4. submit, In varying degrees it can be acceptance to a total embracing of the issue.

The problem is that we the CD'er see everything through our own eyes and all we dream about is number 4. Until we and our spouses get over the shame and sorrow issue very little will change. The CD'er might get over the shame and sorrow issues, but how can we help our spouses get through and out the other side. Well that is the big question, and it depends on the spouse. Education and counselling are the first two places to start. If you can get that far, be prepared to do some compromising also. It is possible to have a win win situation, but not until both parties can both be at number 4.

[mykell]

i used DADT as a tool so to speak, but when it ran its coarse and became obsolete i had to talk and we made adjustments.....it became LNDOT (lets not dwell on this), its not all rainbows and sunshine for either of us i suppose, we talk, we watch shows......she has not used the term heshe and such, she let me do all of the things i had brought up several years ago.....to go to support, to attend a conference, to shave my legs....i have even started my own peer lead meet-up, volunteer at the venue where i hold them, so i surpassed what i thought i would ever accomplish.

no we dont go out shopping, shes not going to do my makeup, were never going together for a manny-pedi, she is not into those things either, she has never seen me dressed that i know of. I have left the browser opened and she has used my laptop with several sites open so she could have just checked them. she knows where the key for the office closet is so if she wishes she can check it out when im out of the house. keep it locked so our son cant see, believe that i have left out far too many things for him to not know.

so i think my SO used it as a coping mechanism until the reality caught up, guess we need to talk about that.......so in some relationships the SO is never going to accept and tolerate at best.....most will not like it and revert to the older values that the media portrays us, Teresa if i remember correctly your SO used some volatile remarks, not sure how i would have remained or adjusted to the situation. so i think their are as more interpretations for DADT than their are for trans/CD

i found this interesting....this thread is still open

DADT feels asymmetrical, if we limit our consideration to our particular desire- but perhaps it is fair to say that for many of us our version of DADT is actually symmetrical, in that both partners are coming to an agreement that requires different things to be given up, but of roughly equal significance. I can tell myself that my wife's asking me to give her space to stick her head in the sand to feel better is not as difficult as me having to wear pants so she will have something more familiar emotionally to see when she looks at me, [when I don't want to- if I consider just my own desires], but after reading 25 posts here, I took another look.

So on behalf of the DADT crowd, I say we are doing what is normal in a committed relationship. Gender identity is not as superficial as political leanings, or hobby interests, but it is perhaps similar to tending to talk too much, or being afraid of the dark, or hating your parents- all of which can be disturbing to relationship, and which have to be moderated and managed somehow- albeit in an unsatisfying way.

It has been really helpful to me to be at peace with our agreement's details. It embodies and conveys respect, including for all that is unsaid and unknown. It conveys trust because at some point we have to believe our SOs when they say it is too hard for them to see us. It lowers tension, and is the basis for me then to be fully present when in drab, as I see it as a positive thing I am doing for my wife, like bringing her her favorite chocolate. And she has expressed appreciation for that, which could only happen when she doesn't feel any resentment from me. And that affirmation of DADT as something we agree on, without feelings of asymettrical power intruding, gives room for incremental expansion in my opportunities to dress- i.e. she sees me in a blouse leaving for a meeting, and I change out of it when I get home, and that is something that feels good to me. I wear a skirt and blouse in the mornings sometimes, and as she is engrossed in the paper, it seems to be becoming acceptable. I think it is because the pain level for her is low, and she is not making a case over something small. Of course...leaving crumbs on the counter- that is another story!

The point is we are not fighting, we are silently negotiating and showing respect and restraint. Does my desire feel unsatisfied- yes. Is hers unsatisfied? Yes. I think it is unavoidable in marriage, so DADT on crossdressing is similar to DADT over anything else that is one of the points of lifelong mismatch in just about every marriage. Like good negotiators, we have to concentrate on points of agreement and maximize our satisfactions there, while respecting the wide range of desires/needs that all have to coexist somehow in everyone's life.

In the 60s we were struggling with how to make free love work, and free food, etc. It wasn't really practical, so I have come to view the fulfillment of all our desires as an unreachable fantasy- and to be much happier with what I do get, rather than discount it!

[Teresa]

Gillian,
I've had two separate sessions of counselling, but my wife refused to attend ,I was the one with the problem and it was up to me to fix it, we didn't talk much about it until I came to the conclusion that my needs were outside her comfort zone so maybe it was time to consider separation. That was when the real talking started , she realised what she stood to lose and that's when we came to a compromise . Initially I asked for Sundays to do as I choose, that has been gradually eroded by the family, my son is probably the worse culprit for that, he knows but doesn't appear to care. Things did change when I finally started going out, I don't think any of them expected me to have the courage to do it, I guess they didn't think the need was that strong. My daughter mostly knows all the facts and is very supportive, but I have to be careful of the conflict between her and my wife because she isn't happy with the DADT situation with my wife, she thinks her treatment is too harsh and lacks understanding .

It's surprising how different each of our stories are , some have support from their wives/partners and dare not tell the children, others have the opposite situation . I don't regret telling my children, I'm far more open with them and it hasn't affected what they think of me, this is why I can't understand why my wife can't let the DADT situation ease, she doesn't have to worry about the close family or their married partners knowing .

Mikell,
Thanks for showing me Phili's link. I have the same problem as Judy, DADT would really mean stop doing it altogether , Ok I'm different to Judy and was prepared to fight for the feelings I'd struggled with all my life, I knew it wasn't gong away so despite DADT I had to come to terms with it . Yes in the past I have had some harsh words thrown at me, I have to accept that is her way of partly coming to terms with it, but also trying to control me. To make the point again, how many of us would treat our wives the same way if we knew they were trying to come to terms with something so strong ?

[suzanne]

The SO reaction runs the gamut, doesn't it? At one time my wife's opinion was that she'd rather see me dead than in a dress. At the time I misread her as being grudgingly tolerant. Things have improved, since she realized my femme side is inseparable from the parts of me she loves. (Another misread. The truth is the things she loves about me come from my feminine side.) So she can now see me in a skirt and it's "not a big deal", but she refuses to be anywhere in public with me dressed. I can't not go out, so I'm discreet and DADT when I do go out. I think we've found a balance point we can live with, at least until she realizes how much I do go out.

[Taylor186]

Teresa, if your wife is actively trying to get you to stop dressing and is critical of your dressing then you are not in a DADT relationship, the way I see it. Her behavior is contrary to the whole premise (or quid pro quo) of DADT. So your put down of those of us who are making DADT work, because your situation is not working, seems disingenuous and unfair.

[Teresa]

Taylor,
If you read the first line I dealt with that, the rest is my view of DADT, fine if you make it work, there was no put down intended. Also may I ask the question that at times DADT hurts one or other of you ? Things not spoken of doesn't mean they have gone away .

I would guess many members are in my position, maybe you could start a thread to find numbers who feel DADT works for them .

[Nikkilovesdresses]

It's a case of how far do you want to take it. It seems you want to take your crossdressing out of the realms of 'occasional' to 'permanent', or even to move nearer to transitioning, and your wife may already suspect that, so it's understandable that she would be hanging on for grim death to what remains of her crumbling social norms.

Yes in an ideal world she would have the capacity to embrace that, to love you for every part of you, but the reality is she is not built that way. You've discovered you, but where does that leave her? DADT is all that stands between her and... well, 'the abyss' might be putting it a bit melodramatically, but she is a product of her upbringing and conditioning - no more, no less.

I know you know that, but you did ask.

DADT applies all over the map in relationships, for instance I look at porn semi-regularly, and my wife probably knows that, but do we talk about it? No. Similarly my wife drinks more than I think is healthy for her, but it doesn't really directly affect me, so I don't give her a hard time about it- though it saddens me deeply that she feels she needs to.

On the greater scale, our government and military conducts our dirty business for us on an ongoing basis- for every Edward Snowden there are a thousand citizens who would prefer not to know how our security is protected, that it sometimes means doing things to people that we ourselves would shrink from doing.

DADT is a coping mechanism, a survival mechanism, a safety barrier. At least it buys time, to process, to cope, perhaps even to grow. Perhaps it does more good than harm?

[Becky Blue]

Good Question teresa, being a not telling person i have always been fascinated by DADT. I believe in general the wife is suffering the most as the husband is often free to do whatever it is they do. The wife on the other hand now has to carry the weight of the knowledge around with her forever with no one to share the secret with. She may often be very upset but really has no choice if she wants to stay married. Clearly the couple have settled into a DADT as the wife is not happy about the situation.

Of course there are many examples on here here where the husbands are suffering too, but I believe that the wife generally bears the brunt of the suffering.

[Teresa]

Nikki,
Some good points in your comments,I can see the safety barrier analogy , it does buy time but also may delay the inevitable. I can make no promises on transition, I still relate to Marcelle who called it social transition. I often pointed out to her our wive's acceptance made our situation so different, but she was in the same dreadful state as I was when we both joined the forum.

My wife's upbringing may have a bearing on her attitude, I realise this point. The abyss, may be a little less daunting if we did have a more open relationship with my CDing. It is frustrating to see other members of my social group enjoying the meetings with their partners , I'm not that naive to think they don't have problems but at least they are on the same page.

[GretchenM]

Love the question, Teresa. It is an important one. After I came out in 2012 my wife insisted on a DADT policy. By that she meant, keep it our secret. She doesn't want to see Gretchen or let anybody she knows see her. I do give her tiny, sketchy updates now and then regarding the status of my gender identity and its dynamics. I went to therapy and she did as well, but it still failed to produce an open relationship in that regard. I think we both value our 48 year marriage so much that ending it over a disagreement on gender expression really isn't sensible. And I agree and compensate; she agrees but really doesn't have to compensate because it is kept a secret. She comes from a family that tended to turn keeping secrets into an art form. My family was more open. It is an interesting dynamic for sure. Is it as happy as it could be? Not hardly. To some extent it is a matter of I change and she stays the same. Not very healthy, but workable and does not really affect me as much as it could because I am definitely the one who is most adaptable. Being gender fluid and being adaptable go hand in hand.

As for which of us is affected the most, it is probably me. She doesn't understand that for me it is more about identity than clothes and that to keep the fluid identity sane it is necessary to sometimes express that way to stabilize periods of disruption. I am transgender, but not transexual. That is hard for me as well because I never really know how I am going to be and some days are really tough. I don't get much sympathy. On the down side, it is, to some degree, her controlling me with the DADT policy. It would be much worse and perhaps unbearable if there was a strong need to dress, but that is not really the case. Much of the time I am Gretchen whether seen as her or not. I do carry a bag, have a women's wallet, often wear feminine colored clothes, and sometimes show enough feminine mannerisms that people get it. That works for me most of the time, but for many others here, including you, that may not work.

She likes the fact that I am now a more gentle person. She likes the benefits of me being more feminine, but doesn't want the dressing to go along with it because that projects a non-traditional image that could affect her reputation. Kind of selfish. I think the evidence shows that would only be a problem with some, but others would accept it. But she is a traditional person and that is a problem for me. So, in that sense, it cuts both ways. But, on balance, I feel that I am the one most restricted by the DADT policy because of a loss of freedom to be who I am when I need to be that identity in terms of expression. It works, but it is not comfortable and it doesn't really allow me to meet my transgender needs as freely as it needs to be to keep that stable and avoid periods of gut wrenching gender dysphoria. Far from ideal, but on the whole we are still a happy elderly couple. Truth is, it is mostly because I am so adaptable and always have been. If I wasn't I am sure we would have split up years ago.

[CarlaWestin]

In my situation DADT only means that I have strategically given some control to my wife. Relationships are a continuous negotiation. And the most successful ones are the ones with good balance.
I believe we are at a wonderful plateau of just enjoying life together. maybe a little more acceptance is in the future but right now, it's just a comfortable loving situation.

[NicoleScott]

DADT works for couples that make it work. DADT gets a bad rap when people call their situation DADT and then describe details in their relationship that rules out DADT.
Teresa, I agree with Taylor that your situation is not DADT. To be fair, like so many other terms used here, DADT may have different definitions for different people. Here's mine:
1) he needs to crossdress
2) she recognizes his need, but doesn't want to see it or hear about it for fear it would change her image of him as a man, her man. He recognizes her need to not see it.
3) the accommodation: he does his thing privately, and keeps everything related away from her, and she doesn't ask about it or snoop to find it.
4) if it stops working for either of you, renegotiate.

Reading all the posts over many years here, my observation is that DADT works best for men who like being men and like to dress up occasionally, and whose crossdressing is compartmentalized (dress up, put it away) and otherwise live the normal life of a man, husband, father, etc.
DADT seems to not work well for those who call themselves crossdressers but may be something else, and whose partner is totally unaccepting, not just seeing it but its very existence.
If you are suffering because you are unable to express your true identity and she is suffering as well, you can blame DADT or you can change SOMETHING. If that's not in the cards for you, perhaps, as Nikki said, it does more good than harm.

[Teresa]

Nicole,
I understand your point of view, Would you say DADT applies no matter how deep in you are, from your assessment I'd guess not.

No 2 is the way my wife is but obviously being out to the World it's no secret to other people . I made the point about part of me not existing in my wife's eyes, OK with AGP that is hard for me to accept.
No 3 follows from 2 I don't do my thing privately, as I've said before being in the closet was like solitary confinement for me, I can't say if she snoops or not but in my circumstances it hardly matters when so many other people have seen me.
no 4 It's hard to say when it has stopped working when DADT takes over, like Judy I've had the long silences, lasting some days .

The alternatives to DADT are stop CDing or call it a day and separate , not unless my wife makes a Uturn on it .

Gretchen,
I suppose it's obvious I'm not gender fluid, my needs are 24/7 , it never fluctuates . The more I go out, the more comfortable it becomes the more DADT appears to be a ridiculous state of affairs . DADT is not keeping us together as a amicable compromise it is driving a wedge further between us.

[Tina_gm]

Dadt, or as mikell, wonderfully labeled her arrangement (much like my own) let's not dwell on it. It works, or can work for certain members and certain partners.

You can talk till your blue in the face, but if they don't grasp the concepts, it's just talking to a rock. It's not necessarily some insidious plan of theirs to keep their cding partner down. It's mostly just s matter of avoiding something that is awkward and uncomfortable, while never understanding it AND for the most part are really only onlookers anyway. I mean, if they are not picking out our outfits, putting on our make up and giving us high heel lessons, what are they Doing? They are just with their partner in a way they cannot be comfortable, happy, or comprehend or connect to.

So dadt, or a mikell like version of it can work. It's a better alternative than ending the entire relationship.

For those of us whose identity is closer to or is a woman's, no, it's not going to work very well.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm sorry, Teresa. There's nothing u can say that will convince me that, "sneak, hide, and lie" is ever better than DADT!

DADT made crossdressing fun for me again. And, there's no surprises for my disapproving, live in, daughter.

[Shelly Preston]

DADT is not going to be the same for everyone.

It may be the more detail a spouse has the more it annoys her. So then it is a negotiation for the correct time for each partner to do there own thing.
Golf is a good analagy as some guys spend more money on golf than their spouse thinks, and many have away days or even a week at a time.

Sometimes it can be more accommodating as in the spouse will call on the way home, to make sure they do not get a surprise they don't want to see.

So it does not have to be hurtful to either partner if they have the right balance.