Personally, I've wondered what the response in these forums to these questions would be:
1. Have you ever read any books about feminism or feminist related topics?
2. Do you consider yourself a feminist.
Veronica
Yes, I've read feminist books and consider myself a feminist
I consider myself a feminist but haven't read any books about it
I don't consider myself a feminist, but I have read books about feminism
I don't consider myself a feminist and I havn't read any books about it.
In Beowulf clusters, Cowboyneal feminizes you! (Slashdot reference)
Personally, I've wondered what the response in these forums to these questions would be:
1. Have you ever read any books about feminism or feminist related topics?
2. Do you consider yourself a feminist.
Veronica
If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.
I voted 'I don't consider myself a feminist and I havn't read any books about it.' I think that sort of stuff mainly happened in the 60's which was well before my time. I don't think burning my bra's would achieve much, I'd certainly be out of pocket
Administrator
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Hmm, perhaps i should have asked also how people define feminism, what they think it is/means.
Me? I'm mostly a third wave feminist.
Some Wikipedia links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_wave_feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfeminism
Veronica
If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.
I have to go with Tamara on this one. I do believe in equality, as it pertains to a woman being equal to a man in the workplace. I believe that women desreve the right to express themselves as they wish. I also believe that men have these rights as well. Equality means exactly what the word is, equality.
I watched the feminist movement of the 60's in America. Today we are looking at problems that will affect women because of the womens movement of the sixties. One of those problems is the draft. The womens lib movement has set a precedent with the draft that will force women into the military if the draft is reinstated. It is for this reason that congress has avoided and tried to ignore our lack of military personnel. While many men and women have been placed on a stop/hold status and are unable to come home because our military is too small to replace them.
I do not think that any person should have to serve in the military or go to war if they do not feel that they could deal with the hardships it would place on them.
Feminist have done some good in this country, they have also projected onto other females things that are not so good.
Jennaie :be:
Last edited by Jennaie; 03-27-2006 at 09:42 PM.
I am curious as to what good feminism has done? Based on the current and previous movement I'm not really aware of anything positive that has come from it.
Every feminist I have every met have been crass hateful and resentful of men. Just my personal observation though.
Read my monthly column On URNA And The Gender Society
Real women were built to be admired. Why be ashamed or hurt if you admire a well crafted copy or immitation?
I am fortunate to know a couple women who define themselves as feminist while remaining delightfully feminine but sadly it has been my experience that they are the exception. I do believe in equality for all genders and think most women would agree.
I got a healthy helping of critical feminist thought in law school--so I can at least say with a clear conscience that I read some of the books...
Besides the usual beliefs in gender equality, I do believe that society should at least think through how patterns of thought or behavior that are not explicitly discriminatory may nevertheless create social distortions that correspond with traditional gender roles.
When modern journalism mentions "feminism", it seems that one of two possible manifestations is intended. Pardon the gross stereotyping but it will get the idea across faster:
1. Man hating, bitter, angry, PC person that seeks to use even the most innocuous mannerisms to demonstrate that men hate women, all sex is necessarily equivalent to rape, and all that other collegiate psychobabble nonsense.
2. A pollyanna-esque belief that women can have it all in life (family, job, sexual satisfaction, plenty of spare time), coupled with an inchoate rage at the world when this proves to not be true.
I have no patience for either of these brands of "feminism", but no end of desire to rid the world of overt discrimination and at least commence an honest social discussion as to next steps to bring about a meaningful gender equality.
Voting, holding public office, owning property in their own name, being able to make their own life choices without a father or male relative forcing them to do something, being able to drive, having their own credit, being able to work in a job of their choosing, able to pursue an education, reproductive choices, laws against sexual harassment, being able to travel as they please. All those things are brought to you by the feminist movement.Originally Posted by Michelle Hart
Veronica
If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.
This is not a slight nor insult to women only an observation based on history and my current interaction with modern feminism and it's attitudes.
In the 1960s and 1970s, much of feminism and feminist theory represented, and was concerned with, problems faced by Western, white, middle-class women while claiming to represent all women.
Voting: 1870 and later in 1920
1870 The 15th Amendment receives final ratification, saying, "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude." By its text, women are not specifically excluded from the vote.
--1890 The first state (Wyoming) grants women the right to vote in all elections.
--1920 Women were not allowed to vote in the United States until the required number of states ratified the 19th Amendment to the Constitution in 1920
Holding public office: 1917
Jeanette Rankin of Montana, elected in 1917, was the first woman member of the United States House of Representatives.
Owning property in their own name: 1839 & 1900
The first state (Mississippi) grants women the right to hold property in their own name, with their husbands’ permission. 1900 By now, every state has passed legislation modeled after New York’s Married Women’s Property Act (1848), granting married women some control over their property and earnings.
Being able to make their own life choices:
Has never been denied = Not relavant and does not count
Being able to drive:
Privlidge not a right. Common misconception
Having their own credit:
Privilidge not a right. Common misconception
Being able to work in a job of their choosing: 1820 & 1938
1920 The Women's Bureau of the Department of Labor is formed to collect information about women in the workforce and safeguard good working conditions for women. 1938 The Fair Labor Standards Act establishes minimum wage without regard to sex.
Able to pursue an education: 1870
In 1870 an estimated one fifth of resident college and university students were women. By 1900 the proportion had increased to more than one third.
Reproductive choices: 1916 & 1923
In 1916 Margaret Sanger opens the first U.S. birth-control clinic in Brooklyn, N.Y. Although the clinic is shut down 10 days later and Sanger is arrested, she eventually wins support through the courts and opens another clinic in New York City in 1923.
Laws against sexual harassment: 1961
President John Kennedy(R) establishes the President's Commission on the Status of Women and appoints Eleanor Roosevelt as chairwoman. The report issued by the Commission in 1963 documents substantial discrimination against women in the workplace and makes specific recommendations for improvement, including fair hiring practices, paid maternity leave, and affordable child care.
Being able to travel as they please:
Has never been denied = Not relavant and does not count
So it looks like the ONLY thing modern feminism has done is get sexual harasment laws passed which have been used as a club ever since. Based on the above it is debatable weather or not the above is directly caused by "feminism" but Since Feminism did't start until the 60's I highly doubt it.
All of the above are great acomplishments though, and Women deserve them of that there is no doubt.
My point is only that Modern feminism has done virtually nothing in the past 50 years but cause problems.
Read my monthly column On URNA And The Gender Society
Real women were built to be admired. Why be ashamed or hurt if you admire a well crafted copy or immitation?
I consider myself a feminist and have read some feminist books. If you think men and women are treated equally, you don't pay much attention! Just look at how many women get raped. I believe it's about 1 in 5, and you also need to take into account a LARGE amount go unreported. To me that is not equality, that's being treated like dirt. Women still get payed less then men. Women still don't hold as many high positions. That says women are still not equal.
Also, I'm totally not man hating at all. Guys rock! It's inequality I'm against.
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I am a humanist, not a feminist. I find "feminism" as a theoretical position to be divisive, paradoxical (because it perpetuates the very myth of basic gender differences it wishes to overcome) and counterproductive. Yes, women are oppressed. But the issue is really that *all* human beings are oppressed.
Cathy
Last edited by Cathy Anderson; 03-29-2006 at 01:08 AM.
yes, good point.
Veronica
If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.
However, consistent with my previous post, I guess it would be fair to say that I am very sympathetic to and supportive of the basic aims of feminism, if those are understood as the creation of a society less oppressive/exploitative of women.
Also, perhaps it should be mentioned that one accomplishment of modern feminism has been achievement of greater parity of salary and professional opportunities between men and women.
Cathy
Last edited by Cathy Anderson; 03-29-2006 at 01:30 AM.
As a mostly Rush Limbaugh conservative (YIKES!! No flaming now, even though I may have asked for it), I think the feminist movement was a great thing. Like the civil rights movement for African Americans, it caused a raising of consciousness to the oppression women have historically faced as noted by others here. Many good things have come as a result.
I have a hard time with the "men are evil, society will evolve to the point that men are not necessary" crowd. (That's the small radical subset RL calles "Feminazis" which is often misrepresented)
The spectrum of male - female that we all are sensitive to shows there are many gender differences among us. As long as we continue to keep the dialog going and shine the light in the "dark" corners, women will continue to make progress. We will make progress. Unfortunately, change is often slow and difficult.
This forum and you girls are the light. I love you all.
Hog hugs from Arkansas
Jerry
I'm a "third-wave humanist" for the reasons Cathy mentioned. And in fact one of the reasons I liked the late Betty Friedan was she was someone who talked about the need to liberate both sexes from the societal limitations both are faced with.
Lena
A dream? What is a dream, but a blueprint for courageous action.
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Beth, rape has nothing to do with equality or inequality. It's not about sex either. Rape is all about power. Rape is deplorable but that still does not make it an "equality" or "women's rights" issue. As far as "positions of power", I do not know any men, anywhere who run the house anymore so I'm a little confused by that.....
Larry, Im a Rush limbaugh fan/conservitive too so your not alone. As I pointed out erlier Feminism in it's current for is all about devisive hate mongering. It has'nt acomplished anything but mass confusion and comunication breakdown. That is a truly sad thing.
I love women and wish there was "equality" in comunication. However I don't think there ever will be. Men and Women think and proccess information too diferently for that.
Generally men are happy being Men. Feminists want women to be happy being men too, but as women who are men because they are women who don't need men; but want men to not want them while they are being men. Even though they need men to want them while they are women so they cant be women who are men being women. It goes withou saying that Feminisms ultimate goal is to change the very dynamics of 50 million years of evolution and natural design.
Read my monthly column On URNA And The Gender Society
Real women were built to be admired. Why be ashamed or hurt if you admire a well crafted copy or immitation?
I have always considered myself a feminist but not a radical one because I am the mother of a male. Some feminists are so radical that they take to shutting out men altogether. I love what you said here Cathy and I think that I will consider myself a humanist from now on.
I think, though, that the reason behind feminism is to gain equality in the areas that are/were considered male teritory which I think was/is needed.
On the other hand I think more effort needs to be placed on men gaining equality in the areas that were once considered female. Like nurtuting yourself and others, taking time to pamper yourself with things that make you feel special and look good like hair products, perfume, clothes etc.
I think that there is such a movement. Take the FAB 5 and the show Queer eye. They do marvelous things for the straight male population. The men that are taken on by the Fab 5 are usually totally suprised by how good it feels to take care of yourself and I think that they want permission from other males to induldge in the tender side of their personalities which we all know is there. Why should it only be ok to do so if you are gay?
The older I get I find that the sexiest men are the ones who have a good grasp of tenderness and responsibility. This hold trues for the females that I consider sexy and admirable.
Kitty
Yes, I am a feminist, but not in the context of current usage. I am more in the model of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, and Susan B. Anthony. Probably also Abigail Adams also qualifies. She was a smart woman and probably more balanced than John was. Abigail had a pretty good grasp of the difficulties during revolutionary and postcolonial times. Her letters show a lot of insight.
I've read biographies and compilations of Mott's Anthony's and Stanton's papers. Very interesting. It is also interesting how what is called feminism has evolved from one meaning into something very different. Personally, I think social thought died in the 1960s. What passes for social progress since then is simply pedantic agitprop.
BTW, there's a web site that is part of Rutgers University that is putting the papers of Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton on-line. Promises to be fascinating reading.
Warm regards,
Christina Nicole
I do believe rape is a feminist issue, because though it affects both men and women, women are raped at a much greater amount. Why is that? Also in other countries, raping women is used as a tool of war. That to me is NOT equality! Besides even rape, there are SO many women who get molested/unwanted touching... I almost don't know any women who have not had unwanted touching of some kind(from minor to major). To me that represents women being treated unequal. As far as "running the house", I meant more higher up positions like in government, in cooperations, managment positions, ect.
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Beth this is not meant to be disrespectful or insulting in any way but I am curious as to where do you do your reasearch??
Women CEOs of Fortune 500 companies
Even with Carly Fiorina's departure from Hewlett-Packard, there are more women running FORTUNE 500 companies this year than there were last year. Currently, nine FORTUNE 500 companies are run by women
So Nacy Pelossi, Hillary Clinton, Condelizza Rice, Marget Thatcher, Marta Stewart, et all are in lower positions than men??
As far as unsolicited "touching" well it happens to everybody, all throught life.
Edited for clarity.....
Last edited by Michelle Hart; 03-29-2006 at 10:39 PM.
Read my monthly column On URNA And The Gender Society
Real women were built to be admired. Why be ashamed or hurt if you admire a well crafted copy or immitation?
1. Feminism is for EVERYBODY by bell hooks is a simple book that defines feminism as, "a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression."
2. Yes, with reference to the above definition, I am a feminist.
Last edited by kneehighs; 03-29-2006 at 11:37 PM.
Nine out of 500? And this is good? It may be a slight improvement over past years, but to say that 1.8% of the top 500 corporations are being run by females is hardly an arguement against a need for further change. Feminism doesn't necessarily mean femi-nazis (your friend Rush's term), but a need for education and empowerment. If all things were equal, about another fifty percent female representation in the boardroom should be expected, as well as further representation by assorted minorities.
The thing is, it looks like you were having difficulty in coming up with a fuller recognizable list of powerful women. And it will be a turning point in our society when we stop looking at people in politics and business and immediately thinking, "wow, it's a female!" It's all too rare to find a woman in influential positions and there is much, much more change that is needed in the coming years. Women in power is not better than having men, but having so few is a disgrace.So Nacy Pelossi, Hillary Clinton, Condelizza Rice, Marget Thatcher, Marta Stewart, et all are in lower positions than men??
No comment -- I'll just let your words sit here like the prattle they are.As far as unsolicited "touching" well it happens to everybody, all throught life.
“I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.”
― Marilyn Monroe
Hi Sharon, I'm happy to see you and hear your input. On some points I agree but on others I disagree. Here are my thoughts.
The point is that There ARE women who run major corporations. The numbers may be low but you have to consider many more variables than gender alone. How many women do you know that are willing to never be at home, deal with the extreme stress or sacrifice nearly every personal relationship they have just to "be the Boss". Most women decide to get married and have children, at this point their focus on work changes. Not always but quite often. They would rather spend time with their children than in an airport terminal discussing an impending merger. Did you know that 75% of all small business' are owned and run by women. America's 9.1 million women-owned businesses employ 27.5 million people and contribute $3.6 trillion to the economy.
I agree with that completly. Unfortunately The National Organazation For Women ( NOW ) does not. Hence the term. I am all for education and empowerment so long as it is tempered by personal responsibility. If somebody chooses to not be educated or relegate their power to someone else, that is personal choice. Blaming "the other guy" is simply meritless.
That sounds like entitlement not equality. Which is more important? Having a QUALIFIED candidate in the position or balancing the gender and ethnic scales. I would much rather have an experienced and qualified pilot on my flights.
Hardly, I did not see the need to list more. The list mearly illustrates the point that there are women at the top and that list is growing.
I agree; so long as "the change" is beneficial and inclusive for ALL people.
Snide comments only cheapen the discussion.
To further illustrate my referenced point. Have you ever been on a crowded subway, in crowded movie theater, the mall ? It's a fact of life that people will bump into you or otherwise "invade" you personal space. Get used to it. However I am all for punishing sexual preditors and their ilk. Sexual harasment is a crime whether comitted against a male or female.
Read my monthly column On URNA And The Gender Society
Real women were built to be admired. Why be ashamed or hurt if you admire a well crafted copy or immitation?
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about men touching women in ways they DON'T want to be touched. Being bumped into on a subway is nothing, that's not what I mean. I think that's great if you've never experienced what I'm talking about, but I think maybe it also means you are not really understanding what I mean. I mean being molested or grabbed sexually on purpose(not accidently bumping into someone). This happens to a LOT of women, infact I'd venture to say it's almost the standard that by being a woman, eventually someone will do something sexually inappropriate to you from minor to major(maybe that's a big assumption on my part but as far as I've seen, not too many females have not had it happen). Sure it happens to men too, but the fact is it happens MUCH more to women, showing that there's an issue there. In your other post you highlighted my words saying it happens to both men and women...yes that's true, but it happens at a much greater proportion to women. Why is that? If women are truely considered equal, wouldn't the rape rates be about equal? Yet it's not, women are raped/molested at a very high number. To me that shows there's a lot of women hatred going on.
About the Fortune 500, I think that's great that there's some women in there. But they're still such a tiny number, I don't think it's all by chance. It shows that while feminism has gone a long way, it still needs to be here, there's still a need for it.
Last edited by BethGG; 03-30-2006 at 03:59 PM.
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