Crossdressing Diversity

[KimberlyS]

This started out as a response to a post by Amelie in the ask the GG’s section. But I quickly realized I would be putting an different direction to the original post and it had a rant under tones to it. Ok the following has lots of ranting. I even welcome comments from the FtM's and would love your view points.

Diversity. We hear that word often in the whole TG community. Of which I personally include all CD, TS, TV, DQ, DK, Gay, Lesbian, … inclusively in the TG community. I know many do not include the Gay and Lesbian.

But I would like to talk about just the diversity within the CD community hat. Amelie talks of not feeling part of or belonging within the CD community:

“Maybe I don't belong in a CD forum, maybe I was wrong to join, but I have made many friends here,,,, maybe I have to search for another forum that has people like me.”

IMHO I believe you are a part of the CD community as much as you are a part of the TG and TS communities. But I will also agree that this forum and other CD forums I am part of have a tendency to give the image that the only “real” CDer is one that is trying to look as femme as possible and trying to “pass”. And while I do not think this is the goal of the sites, I believe that those CDs that think like this and strive to be like this are the more vocal/active ones on the forum. Thus the more posts, the more it looks like we should be like that. Then add in a few that push the "Real CDer" ideas.

Because IMHO there are a lot more of us here that are not like that at all. While Amelie is a CDer plus / CD living fulltime femme / TS no-op or what ever label you want to put on her, I believe she is at one far end of the CD spectrum. Just as the cders here that may only wear 1 or a few items of clothes, never want to pass or go out, are at the other far end of the CD spectrum.

IMHO there is a Crossdressing Spectrum, just like there is a Transgendered Spectrum with a infinite stopping points from one end to the other. But I agree with Amelie, while she says:

“In society I am not a man, and in this forum I am not a woman. This hurts me on the inside. It feels like doors are always being shut on me, whether out in society or on the forum. I know this forum is just a playground of sorts, but still it hurts, no matter how insignificant one might think this forum is in ones life.”

But for me in society I am a feminine guy, and know many in society judge me wrongly for this as I often hear the comments other make about girly boys or guys they think are gay, or those dressed differently from the norm. And on the CD forums I am a “Guy in a Dress” instead of trying to be as feminine and girly as I should be to be a “Real CDer”.

IMHO Amelie and I are as Real CDers as all the other CDers here. And I am often hurt by postings that tell others they need to me more feminine, or they need to pass, or need to do anything to be come more of a CDer or to be a Real Cder. That is BS. We are cders where ever we are at and comfortable on the CDer Spectrum.

Amelie, I personally hope you do not leave this or any other forum I see you on, as I enjoy not only the Diversity you bring, but the well thought out and written posts that you write. And I wish a lot more of the CDers here that on the other parts of the spectrum would post more.

And I have looked for other forums. Go to some of the Guys in Skirts sites and I really feel out of place. It is alot of male hormones and in your face if you do not like me wearing a skirt type of attitude.

And a final thing, I see too often people within the TG community talk diversity, but they do not practice accepting diversity outside of their own diversity. And I see this strongly with some hetro CDers. Get a clue. You want to be accepted, but you can not accept a gay MTF CDer with a BF. One does not need to understand a Diversity, to accept people for who they are and think they should also have rights to be who they are.

Rant Off, Someone please tell me I am way off base and I am the only one that sees this.

KimberlyS - CD

[miche_miche]

takes all kinds, i say

i actually do think that the folks on this list are supportive of every variant of cd, tg, ts etc.

we're a small enough community without dividing ourselves

of course, it's great to find someone to talk to who's a whole lot like you -- all the better that we have every kind of person

[Julie York]

I think people on here are generally quite good at being accepting of variations in CDing. But it is a confusing subject for each of us, so we are prone to supporting the 'type' nearest our own, if only for the sake of sanity.

It's hard enough getting your head round your own condition and coming to terms with it, without embracing the variations. You might try to be accepting and open minded...but it doesn't mean you LIKE it.

Amelia is unique....not because she is gay....but because, unlike many other gay CDs she doesn't discuss her sexuality as a means to introduce some sleaze content into her posts. She just gets on with being her. (That should rattle a few cages. )

Also, it must be very disheartending to read time and time again how "Most CDs are not gay!" (god forbid ) when people are trying to calm the fears of a worried wife or girlfriend etc. It may be true.....but not ALWAYS!

[KimberlyS]

Miche

... i actually do think that the folks on this list are supportive of every variant of cd, tg, ts etc.

And I agree that most here support most variants of CDers. What I am saying is most of the information and support is more narrowly focused in the "looking as feminine as possible" and "trying to pass" pass areas leaving those that are on the more outer edges of the spectrum feeling very left out, or unable to relate to. Then combine that with those that push being more feminine and girly, it gives more validity to that direction for many making where they are at and where they are comfortable more confusing.

KimberlyS

[sharifemme]

Kimberly...

I agree with you on many of your points. The one thing in our community that disappoints me more than anything is the lack of respect some have for people who are not just like them. It really does not make me mad because years ago I was one of the GLBT bashers even though I was TG myself.

I do know a number of Trans people who never fail to bash gays, lesbians and other trans people who are not at the same point they are and it makes me sad. We really should stand together or we will surely be knocked down as individuals.

As far as I am concerned, everybody here belongs here and I hope that everybody knows anything I say is just my opinion and not meant to hurt anybody (Except redneck conservatives! LOL!).

Sharifemme

This started out as a response to a post by Amelie in the ask the GG’s section. But I quickly realized I would be putting an different direction to the original post and it had a rant under tones to it. Ok the following has lots of ranting. I even welcome comments from the FtM's and would love your view points.

Diversity. We hear that word often in the whole TG community. Of which I personally include all CD, TS, TV, DQ, DK, Gay, Lesbian, … inclusively in the TG community. I know many do not include the Gay and Lesbian.

But I would like to talk about just the diversity within the CD community hat. Amelie talks of not feeling part of or belonging within the CD community:

“Maybe I don't belong in a CD forum, maybe I was wrong to join, but I have made many friends here,,,, maybe I have to search for another forum that has people like me.”

IMHO I believe you are a part of the CD community as much as you are a part of the TG and TS communities. But I will also agree that this forum and other CD forums I am part of have a tendency to give the image that the only “real” CDer is one that is trying to look as femme as possible and trying to “pass”. And while I do not think this is the goal of the sites, I believe that those CDs that think like this and strive to be like this are the more vocal/active ones on the forum. Thus the more posts, the more it looks like we should be like that. Then add in a few that push the "Real CDer" ideas.

Because IMHO there are a lot more of us here that are not like that at all. While Amelie is a CDer plus / CD living fulltime femme / TS no-op or what ever label you want to put on her, I believe she is at one far end of the CD spectrum. Just as the cders here that may only wear 1 or a few items of clothes, never want to pass or go out, are at the other far end of the CD spectrum.

IMHO there is a Crossdressing Spectrum, just like there is a Transgendered Spectrum with a infinite stopping points from one end to the other. But I agree with Amelie, while she says:

“In society I am not a man, and in this forum I am not a woman. This hurts me on the inside. It feels like doors are always being shut on me, whether out in society or on the forum. I know this forum is just a playground of sorts, but still it hurts, no matter how insignificant one might think this forum is in ones life.”

But for me in society I am a feminine guy, and know many in society judge me wrongly for this as I often hear the comments other make about girly boys or guys they think are gay, or those dressed differently from the norm. And on the CD forums I am a “Guy in a Dress” instead of trying to be as feminine and girly as I should be to be a “Real CDer”.

IMHO Amelie and I are as Real CDers as all the other CDers here. And I am often hurt by postings that tell others they need to me more feminine, or they need to pass, or need to do anything to be come more of a CDer or to be a Real Cder. That is BS. We are cders where ever we are at and comfortable on the CDer Spectrum.

Amelie, I personally hope you do not leave this or any other forum I see you on, as I enjoy not only the Diversity you bring, but the well thought out and written posts that you write. And I wish a lot more of the CDers here that on the other parts of the spectrum would post more.

And I have looked for other forums. Go to some of the Guys in Skirts sites and I really feel out of place. It is alot of male hormones and in your face if you do not like me wearing a skirt type of attitude.

And a final thing, I see too often people within the TG community talk diversity, but they do not practice accepting diversity outside of their own diversity. And I see this strongly with some hetro CDers. Get a clue. You want to be accepted, but you can not accept a gay MTF CDer with a BF. One does not need to understand a Diversity, to accept people for who they are and think they should also have rights to be who they are.

Rant Off, Someone please tell me I am way off base and I am the only one that sees this.

KimberlyS - CD

[A sage GG]

I am just a GG and new here to boot. But I have noticed the same thing. My husband is not the type that goes all out and tries desperately to become more feminine.
This may sound way too simplistic and maybe riduculous to some or all of you, but here goes. It sure would be nice to be able to tell the difference of what stage of CDer you are. How about like karate belt colors to distinguish? You know white=just articles of clothes, yellow=the whole get-up but remain private, green= wanting to be passable and venture out, blue=living more as a woman, red=becoming a woman etc. you get my point. Maybe if your names were in these colors we would be able to realize who and what kind of person we were talking to.
Oh yeah then the GGs could use the corrosponding colors of our tolerance levels. lol
It is not my intention to build walls or segregate or even lable people, it would just be an easier way to distinguish the variety of you all.

[DonnaT]

I am often hurt by postings that tell others they need to me more feminine, or they need to pass, or need to do anything to be come more of a CDer or to be a Real Cder.

Personally Kimberly, I won't tell you are way off base, but I will tell you I haven't seen it. So if you have seen it, then I can't tell you you haven't can I?

I consider Amelie a friend, as she does me. There are quite few girls posting here that are either gay or bi. There are quite few who suggest they aren't, but will fantasize being with (kissing, sex, date) someone of their same birth designated gender. Personally, with the confusion of gender identity being such that it is, I don't think sexual orientation is easy to explain with respect to the TG community.

Some may feel that others don't think they fit in because of where they are in the TG spectrum or even the sexual orientation spectrum, but I haven't seen very many posting telling someone they don't fit in here. If and when I do, I'm not shy at calling them out.

As for postings about who's a real Cd and who's not, haven't seen them. Maybe you could post a link to a few such postings, and I'll put in my 0.02

[DonnaT]

I'd like to add, that my job consists of analyzing what people write, and analyzing what other who analyze write. Mostly it is all technical stuff dealing with inventions.

You'd think that a technical description could only be read one way, but when it comes to analyzing it, there can be several interpretations of what was read.

So, I can see reading what someone has written here can easily be taken in the wrong way. We all interpret what we read somewhat differently.

[Kim E]

Hello Kimberly ~
I agree with much of what you have said here. This forum is large enough to allow every member to have a home under this huge diverse spectrum. All of us here, except for GG's, share the same common bond, we all dress in the clothing opposite of our birth sex. Everything else is secondary, we are all equals here.

Whenever a member here bashes or is insensitive to another member causing that member to leave the forum; we all suffer, as a forum, a community and as human beings. Some of my close friends have left the forum because of this. * MAND, I'm speaking of you love and of how much this place lost when you quit posting. I miss you very much here.*

Amelie is one of the first friends I had on this forum. Although we are similar in many ways and are at opposite ends of the spectrum in others, I still consider her to be a dear friend. Amelie is intelligent, courageous, honest and under that hard exterior she is a very warm and sensitive woman. I admire her and respect her opinions very much.

The whole TS community is having problems with an unfair caste system which is alienating many in that community. Don't let that happen here because ultimately we all suffer.

Kim

[Ellaine]

Great thread KimberleyS, you've inspired some excellent responses.

[miss_sarah]

Agreed 100%. There's no need for snide, evil or hateful remarks based on these different levels of being CD. Here's how I look at it:

Personally, I've grown to the point of having a complete femme self, wanting to/have gone out and interacted with society, etc. HOWEVER --

I *STARTED* out a Level 1, as many others in my specific point on the spectrum have, so I can certainly commisserate with those who are simply into panties and bras.

I'm genuinely curious about the other direction of the spectrum as well, those who choose to live full-time or go through SRS. So I'm just as pleased to talk to them.

There's only one level I have ABSOLUTELY no interest in conversing with (and call this bashing if you like...) but it's the ones who chase you down on messenger and nag you to show them pictures and/or turn a webcam on, and/or want to cyber, and/or drill you on where you live and continue to make suggestive remarks resembling "we should meet" or "you should come here sometime" etc. as this is of no interest to me one iota. Of course, this could easily be mis-read to assume that I mean "those who find sexual stimulation from CD", which is certainly NOT the "sub-group" i'm referring to! The difference is, those scenarios usually happen in private (on yahoo messenger) -- NOT in this public forum. That's why you've never heard me gripe (aka bash) about it before, and likely never will again

(( had another long day on the road, daytrip to chicago again, and i'm wiped out, so if this doesn't make any sense... there ya go LOL)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

This forum is large enough to allow every member to have a home under this huge diverse spectrum.

Amen!

[racquel]

I am just a GG and new here to boot. But I have noticed the same thing. My husband is not the type that goes all out and tries desperately to become more feminine.
This may sound way too simplistic and maybe riduculous to some or all of you, but here goes. It sure would be nice to be able to tell the difference of what stage of CDer you are. How about like karate belt colors to distinguish? You know white=just articles of clothes, yellow=the whole get-up but remain private, green= wanting to be passable and venture out, blue=living more as a woman, red=becoming a woman etc. you get my point. Maybe if your names were in these colors we would be able to realize who and what kind of person we were talking to.
Oh yeah then the GGs could use the corrosponding colors of our tolerance levels. lol
It is not my intention to build walls or segregate or even lable people, it would just be an easier way to distinguish the variety of you all.

What a great idea. (now where is my green ribbon):cheeky:

[Toyah]

I find this talk of levels and diversity disheartening it smacks too much of phycatric self analysis which is generally self perpetuating.
I enjoy talking to all people on this forum dont really care what their level is or their sexuality as long as that does not bias their conversations towards subjects such as going out dates etc.
The only real group I find disturbing in a way I cannot define are the ones who want to change the world and think the world should bend just because they say so. It is a fact the world is predudice in all sorts of ways and laws or bits of paper will never change that.
Get out there and show yourself if you want for me I am staying at home where its safe.

[TGMarla]

I figure that most CDers just do whatever they enjoy doing. If that means you like to toss on a few items of clothing here and there, so be it. Whatever floats your boat. Some of us like the total female emulatin bit. It's what they strive for. And so be it to them, too. I feel that no one kind of crossdresser is somehow superior to another. Everyone has different pursuits. May you excel at yours.

[KimberlyS]

Sorry for my slowness in my reponse. I would like to thank everyone for their comments. I welcome the feed back from everyone. And I would also like to clarify myself a little bit. As I know I can even be confusing to myself.

And I would like to also state this is just my view, and I am getting use to being a bit different than others being like this for 40 plus years of life. In my recent years I have become much more accepting of others. And agree with the “to each their own.”, and “takes all kinds”.

Of all the sites that I go to or have been, this one has to be at the top with the cream. I have seen little direct comments on pushing or directing others to be more of a real CDer, type of comments here, and I have been surprised when I have seen them.

When I narrow my view to just those posts about MtF, those about dressing, clothes, fashion, going out, what do we wear, how much/which items we wear, how to wear it, what to be like, hair, face, makeup, padding, what is being a CDer, looks, what we do when we are out and about,…..I think you get the point. I would say that most of it points to CDers wanting to do more and more. Being more feminine, girly and like a woman. Cders go out and try to pass as a woman. And Yes I know there are a lot of supporting posts that accept the diversity of all of us and help all of us. And the posts that, IMHO help a cder accept and define their self and who a CDer is, in quantity point to a much narrower view of who and what is an acceptable CDer is, than the full CD/TG spectrum.

And I am not putting any blame anywhere for this, because in general what I see, is those that dress fully seem to be more vocal in who they are, what they do and what they want. Those that wear fewer femme clothes seem to be less vocal, less out-going, and more shy.

Just a thought about me, and I think it is fairly common. When I was a CDer who was new to online forums, I was scared shxtless, and felt drawn to do more because that was what most (seemed like all) were doing. Until I figured out who I was and slid back to that point of who I was. But if I was a CDer who only wore an item or so, and felt no need to go out, did not feel feminine or girly, I can understand how scared and confused they may be. Digging through all of the information that is not them to get what little of it relates to them is most likely something that many will not do. Or digging through all of the information and know you are more than most of it. Luckily there are some sites that help those that are more TS. But from what I have red on those sites they are very similar to this site, but cater to the main TS group.

Just some of my wild thoughts. I hope someone got something out of them.

KimberlyS-CD

[HaleyPink2000]

We did have a local Gay couple come to one of our meetings "TriEss, to meet us all. It was nice to meet a couple that acted like a devoted Male and Female. She was dressed en femme “ a very beautiful Woman mtf CD” and He was very male. It was a good learning experience for others and myself. I had never met a devoted Gay couple before. It has changed a few Ideas I had. It was a big growing “ learing “ experience. Even more than that it's given me another set of friends in my life. I don't see them offten, But when I do. It will be all smiles.

Thanks for listening to me.

[DonnaT]

Just a thought about me, and I think it is fairly common. When I was a CDer who was new to online forums, I was scared shxtless, and felt drawn to do more because that was what most (seemed like all) were doing. Until I figured out who I was and slid back to that point of who I was. But if I was a CDer who only wore an item or so, and felt no need to go out, did not feel feminine or girly, I can understand how scared and confused they may be. Digging through all of the information that is not them to get what little of it relates to them is most likely something that many will not do. Or digging through all of the information and know you are more than most of it.

Ahh, sounds like the gist of your thread, and you're right. No-one should come to such a diverse forum as this is and think they need to do more (or less) than they are comfortable with. If someone simply loves wearing hose, then they shouldn't feel pressured to try more. If someone likes living in the closet, they shouldn't feel pressured to go out.

I don't think anyone intentionally tries to get another CDer to do more (or less) than they are comfortable with by expressing their pleasure in other aspects of CDing or going out, etc. But there's really not much we can do if someone does try to go beyond their comfort zone based on other people's experience. One reason this site is for adults only.

About the only thing anyone really tries to get across to another is to be honest with their SO. Is this right or wrong? Maybe a subject for another thread.

[stephanie100]

Kimberly...



We really should stand together or we will surely be knocked down as individuals.


Sharifemme

Couldnt agree more