Reverse discrimination

[GG Vanya]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."

I asked this in the lounge on another thread, but I'd like to know:

Would you (CD's) deny GG's the right to wear whatever they choose, and do you not consider this reverse discrimination, given the fact that this is exactly the right you wish to obtain?

I thought about this today. The heat index here is 109 F, and as I was working it occurred to me that IF I was wearing a dress and hose, I most likely would have either ripped them off by 10 AM or suffered heat stroke!

Fortunately, the dress code for my job is lax, so I wore a "dressy" skort with a short sleeved blouse~much like what you see women wearing on the golf course.

Can any of you see my point? It has been a very long journey from the Ms. Cleaver shirtwaist dress and apron, to working outside the home, in jobs previously thought to be for "men only". Certainly with those changes, the dress codes and trends for women changed also~sometimes out of necessity, but also out of choice.

What I'm trying to say, without sounding offensive is: It seems there is a mindset for some who, in attempting to climb that ladder of acceptance, would just as soon step on the necks of those who have already fought this battle in order to get there.

I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the GG's here support your (CD's) right to dress as you choose. Please don't put us down for having already fought the battle you now fight. We're on *your* side!

[JenniferMint]

I'm not sure if I follow you. How does CDs wanting to wear dresses infringe upon GGs wanting to wear pants?

[Sarah Rabbit]

I do not get where you are coming from Vanya. I would read such comments as ' I wish I could wear clothes of the opposite sex without anyone batting an eyelid' which is exactly what a female can do, it's just harmless envy. I don't think anyone, other than an old fuddy duddy would worry what a GG wears.

Hugs, Sarah R.

[Jesse69]

I have seen and heard women call other women faggots for wearing a men's polo shirt, so women get bitched too for crossdressing.

[TammyB]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."

Yes, I keep reading that aswell.

Whilst I think there is some truth in the idea that women in general have more clothing freedom than men do, it isnt crossdressing. If the implication is that FtMs have it easier then I just dont think its true.

[GG Vanya]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=37046

This thread in the lounge is an example of what I'm trying to point out. It seems to be a "lament" if you will, that women don't wear dresses/skirts, and the fact that it makes it more difficult for CD's to go out without being read.

And no, I absolutely do not think F2M's have it easier. I think they have it much tougher than M2F's.

Let me try to word it this way:

It seems that, with few exceptions, every time the "women don't dress feminine anymore" topic surfaces, it has a negative/critical slant to it. Please don't criticize us for doing exactly what you wish to do: Dress as you choose!

[bgirl]

No discrimination here. Why would I want to deny you something that I want for myself? My wife was thinking about this when this (CD) all come out and said ,"it not fair is it, that I can wear what ever I want and nobody says a thing." And I replied that life isn't always fair. If it wasn't this then it would probably be something else.

Did you know that men used to wear knee britches(capris) hose,high heels, wigs and earings all as a normal mans atire? Some of them wrote the Constitution. Things have changed a little scince then. I think I,ll cling to the old ways from time to time. I hate being so conservitive, it feels so liberal.

[TammyB]

And no, I absolutely do not think F2M's have it easier. I think they have it much tougher than M2F's.

Oops!, I meant that those who whine "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it." might think this. Not you

It seems that, with few exceptions, every time the "women don't dress feminine anymore" topic surfaces, it has a negative/critical slant to it. Please don't criticize us for doing exactly what you wish to do: Dress as you choose!

I totally agree. Its hypocritical.

[GG Vanya]

No discrimination here. Why would I want to deny you something that I want for myself? My wife was thinking about this when this (CD) all come out and said ,"it not fair is it, that I can wear what ever I want and nobody says a thing." And I replied that life isn't always fair. If it wasn't this then it would probably be something else.

Did you know that men used to wear knee britches(capris) hose,high heels, wigs and earings all as a normal mans atire? Some of them wrote the Constitution. Things have changed a little scince then. I think I,ll cling to the old ways from time to time. I hate being so conservitive, it feels so liberal.

I absolutely agree that it's not fair that women can wear what they choose. And yes, I remember how men dressed when the USA was in its infancy.

What bothers me, as I said above, is the negativity implied when CD's criticize us for not wearing skirts and dresses.

[bgirl]

I guess I didn,t notice that CDers complained about the demize of skirted and dressed women. My wife never wears skirts or dresses and I'm fine with that. I don't let my preference in clothes color her choices. At a recent CD event we went to, most of the GG's wore pants or shorts and is often the case. If mention is made of it a common reply has been " someone has to wear the pants around here" As to history, when I am dressed as a man in period correct clothing, I do not feel like I am crossdressing. Same thing happens when I wear a kilt. It a mans atire. Its like ordering Coke and all they have is Pepsi, it will do but its not the real thing. My wife rolls her eyes on this and I,m not allowed to wear kilts out of the house either. T.his has been fun but I gotta go now. Beth

[Charleen]

I can understand some what where you are coming from, but please don't put it out as a blanket comdenation of "us" verses "you" when it comes to clothing and acceptance. There might be a few of us who are more vocal about this so called reverse discrimination, but I believe they do not speak for the majority of the community. Personally, I could not care less what a person wears. Any person. I've said it many times, to each, his/her own. I'm thrilled that woman got "liberated" in the way they can dress. Jealous that I can't have the same freedom? You better believe it! Am I upset about the disparity? Yeah! Do I hold it against all the GGs that they can dress however they like? NO! I'm thrilled that you have the freedom like that. Maybe "us" will have that same privilege, but until then, "you" enjoy yourselves. We'll catch up eventually. Love and xxxx, Lily

[tekla west]

The way I read that post (and re-read it) was that it was all about how small towns are not exactly fashion centers. What makes it hard to CD in small towns is not the lack of fashion but that everyone knows everybodies elses business, & secrets are hard to keep.

I'm all for anyone wearing whatever they want. Love thick black tribal tattoos swirling about your upper arms or shoulders while wearing a 50's prom dress with Doc Martin boots??? Go for it. Little girls in belly shirts showing off thier pieced navel while wearing pants so low you got plumbers crack and showing off that tramp-stamp on your back? Sure. Love body modification? Great! Hey, come on over in fact, I have a top-of-the-line Makita 18V LXT Lithium-Ion Cordless 1/2" Driver Drill that you can use on your face to your heart's content. KlubKids rock, boys in prom dresses are dreamy, girls looking like boys are way cool. What ever floats your boat.

[bgirl]

The way I read that post (and re-read it) was that it was all about how small towns are not exactly fashion centers. What makes it hard to CD in small towns is not the lack of fashion but that everyone knows everybodies elses business, & secrets are hard to keep.

I'm all for anyone wearing whatever they want. Love thick black tribal tattoos swirling about your upper arms or shoulders while wearing a 50's prom dress with Doc Martin boots??? Go for it. Little girls in belly shirts showing off thier pieced navel while wearing pants so low you got plumbers crack and showing off that tramp-stamp on your back? Sure. Love body modification? Great! Hey, come on over in fact, I have a top-of-the-line Makita 18V LXT Lithium-Ion Cordless 1/2" Driver Drill that you can use on your face to your heart's content. KlubKids rock, boys in prom dresses are dreamy, girls looking like boys are way cool. What ever floats your boat.

I was thinking maybe a little tounge in cheek, but then considering your 18 volt Mosquito 1/2 inch cordless drill, even that was a possibility.

[tekla west]

Professional craftpersons use professional grade tools - they are REQUIRED to. It funny, on a union call we have 7 dress codes, the same for boys and girls. Given that its rock and roll, we have as many guys with real long hair as we have girls with super short hair, from the back you can't tell us apart, all slinging those drivers down on our thigh like Western gunfighters and thier Colts.

[QZ2]

Dear Vanya,

When a GG wears pants is she crossdressing? No. Unless what she is doing is trying to accomplish F2M.

A woman can wear whatever she wants, almost, and never loose her femininity. Some of us can put on all the makeup and heels we want and never hide our masculinity. My wife wears pants and shorts most of the time and sometimes looks so lusciously feminine that I want to melt.

But your being upset with the comment is valid when the remark is said with ignorance or jealousy. But really, I believe that we CDrs are a bit envious at times that we can't go out in a skirt and I also believe that most of us would never want to do it if we weren’t trying to emulate the female image. We are M2F, not M2M in a skirt and we should remember that the next time we say a similar remark.

By the way, I can be jealous of Trudi's wonderfully understanding wife.

Hugs, Susie

[HaleyPink2000]

OK, Vanya!

I hate to say this Big Time! You don't know how much I hate to say this.
But, your correct that this would be wrong for a CD to ask their wife or GF or whatever to wear only dresses and then they be able to go out and wear a dress themselves. Gawd, your right, I hate to admit it.

That said! If a CD was wanting the world to let them dress as they wish. In a dress or bra, whatever. Then they can't turn around and expect the world to conform to their standards either. They would have to allow people to wear what they will. Except in Business settings. Then it's up to the person giving you a pay check...I'd agree.

[GG Vanya]

Dear Vanya,

When a GG wears pants is she crossdressing? No. Unless what she is doing is trying to accomplish F2M.

A woman can wear whatever she wants, almost, and never loose her femininity. Some of us can put on all the makeup and heels we want and never hide our masculinity. My wife wears pants and shorts most of the time and sometimes looks so lusciously feminine that I want to melt.

But your being upset with the comment is valid when the remark is said with ignorance or jealousy. But really, I believe that we CDrs are a bit envious at times that we can't go out in a skirt and I also believe that most of us would never want to do it if we weren’t trying to emulate the female image. We are M2F, not M2M in a skirt and we should remember that the next time we say a similar remark.

By the way, I can be jealous of Trudi's wonderfully understanding wife.Hugs, Susie

1. Agreed. Even if she is wearing pants tailored for men, unless she binds her breasts, achieves a 5 O'clock shadow via makeup, to me, she isn't crossdressing. Others most probably think differently.

1. Certainly you can. I have absolutely no aversion to that jealousy. However, I can't take all the credit. Vanya also has a wonderfully understanding, sensitive, caring and intuitive "wife".

[MarinaTwelve200]

The REAL Problem is very simple We ALL are culturally conditioned to see a man wearing a dress as looking FOOLISH ===It evokes laughter just as much as a clown's costume designed for the purpose.

Even some of us less "sensitive" CDs have laughed at the sight---of course many of us remember Milton Byrle. Its for THIS reason, if a guy IS gonna CD in public he had better well look "real" when doing it.

Those who do not PASS pay the price---but for many, the ridicule may be worth the price of admission, so to speak. to others it is not. Its no use griping about an aspect of society we cant change. We KNOW what people laugh at and should expect it if we insist on public Cding, Just as the clown expects to be laughed in his costume---it would make little sense for the clown to complain about being laughed at in public when wearing his funny clothes and makeup.

My point is we cant change society, the culture is what it is. A CD in public knows the risk. Its how the CD handles the situation that counts. Its a voluntary act, that must be worth the risk to the CDer to do it.

[Kimberly]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!

It needed to be said. xx

[GG Vanya]

Addressing the "is a woman wearing pants crossdressed" thought, I'd like to give an example:

I am an avid sportswoman. I deer, squirrel and duck hunt. I've done this for many years. Until recently no one made camo specifically for women. Nor did they offer insulated underwear for women. For this reason, I wore camo, hunting boots, and insulated underwear made for men. I "adapted" the underwear by sewing up the fly because I felt awkward wearing it (and to keep my sons from snitching it!)

Not once did I feel I was crossdressed, even though I was attired head to toe in clothes tailored for males. This was a simple case of necessity.

Time certainly changes things. Now Cabela's (world's foremost outfitter) even has a catalog for women only! (and women can now purchase thermal underwear in pink, or with flowers on them!)

Who knows, in another 20 years it's entirely possible you'll see J C Penny's catalogs catered to the M2F crossdresser. I hope so.

[Sophia Rearen]

I am an avid sportswoman. I deer, squirrel and duck hunt. I've done this for many years. Until recently no one made camo specifically for women. Nor did they offer insulated underwear for women. For this reason, I wore camo, hunting boots, and insulated underwear made for men. I "adapted" the underwear by sewing up the fly because I felt awkward wearing it (and to keep my sons from snitching it!)

Now you see, here is a difference. I think that what you're wearing is sexy. Women in mens [SIZE="3"]camo[/SIZE] gear, that's hot. Most men would find it so. Conversely, put a man in hot [SIZE="3"]cami[/SIZE] gear and you'll find very few women who'll think it's sexy.

[Kate Simmons]

As far as I'm concerned there is no problem here among us anyway. I'm assuming that by being members of the Forum, we accept each other for who we are and how we want to express ourselves. Am I wrong? Ericka

[noname]

Dear Vanya,

When a GG wears pants is she crossdressing? No. Unless what she is doing is trying to accomplish F2M.

Would you say a guy in a skirt not trying to M2F is crossdressing?

1. Agreed. Even if she is wearing pants tailored for men

This is the kind of stuff that pisses me off. Because somehow you believe it IS different when you do it.

[GG Vanya]

Would you say a guy in a skirt not trying to M2F is crossdressing?



This is the kind of stuff that pisses me off. Because somehow you believe it IS different when you do it.

I believe it is different because of what "I" feel inside when I wear apparel made for men. I am not attempting to feel or express masculinity. To me, it really *is* more than just the clothes when it comes to crossdressing. I've always felt that "passing" isn't the root issue for a CD, it's about expressing what he OR she feels inside.

Ericka, I certainly would hope that we all here are accepting of others, but I keep seeing comments, (I gave one example already, and I'll give another below) that seem very derogatory regarding SO's or other GG's who do not dress to the CD's specific standards or wishes.

I even know a CD (not on this forum) who is *divorcing* his wife because she refuses to dress more feminine 'for him'. I'd love to see the look on the judge's face when the CD gives *this* reason for divorce. And I told him so. For the record, the wife knows he CD's, but does not wish to participate or be included.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=36933

[Maria D]

What bothers me, as I said above, is the negativity implied when CD's criticize us for not wearing skirts and dresses.

I think that translates as 'They aren't wearing what I want them to wear, for me to look at'.
Well, ok, fine, lets get all the GGs to wear what you want them to. This will usually involve skirts and dresses. In return, men can wear what women want them to wear. This will probably not involve crossdressing. Is this an acceptable agreement, or would it perhaps be better for everyone to wear what they want?

In terms of crossdressing, I think women being able to wear trousers would have make it harder for FTM CDs, since trousers have ceased to be a visible sign of masculinity. If men were able to wear skirts and dresses, or further, if clothes ceased to have gender, it'd make it harder for all CDs by removing a useful visual CDing aid. That's my feeling of what equal clothing rights would do, rather than what's actually desired, which is 'being able to crossdress without any problem' which is a different thing. I don't deny anyone any rights, but I think that's what'd happen.

Just my tuppence 'apenny.