Reverse discrimination

[rosiegurl]

I think it all comes down to the fact the M2F's are a bit jealous of the clothing freedom women have in regards to men, and sometimes it just comes out wrong.

I know I personally wish guys had as much freedom to wear what they like as women do, but we don't, so can only look on and wish *grins* while those of us brave enough push the frontier forward, and those like me, cower behind closed doors *grins*

[Nike]

As I read this thread and the discussion of the freedom of women to wear whatever they want I am very aware that many of us here are old enough to remember well the challenges they faced to get to this point. I'm in my 40's and this widely accepted freedom woman have came during my lifetime. Women were not GIVEN their freedom, they CLAIMED it. The news during the 60's covered bra burning events as fervently as they covered draft card burning events.

Now, I don't see any "boxer burnings" in the news anytime soon.

The point clearly is that society didn't just one day say, "hey, women, you can wear whatever you want and we were wrong to require you to wear only dresses and skirts for all this time". I admire the women who challenged the stereotype. I admire that the generations that followed took up the issue and continued to define who they chose to be, rather than being forced back to Victorian thinking.

Ladies of both sexes, wear what you choose. As in all things in life, be aware that there is a certain level of appropriate to anything we choose to bring into the public realm. Some will ignore, some will accept and some will object passionately to virtually everything. Who we are as people is not defined by others, but by the strength of our own convictions.

[ReginaK]

As I read this thread and the discussion of the freedom of women to wear whatever they want I am very aware that many of us here are old enough to remember well the challenges they faced to get to this point. I'm in my 40's and this widely accepted freedom woman have came during my lifetime. Women were not GIVEN their freedom, they CLAIMED it. The news during the 60's covered bra burning events as fervently as they covered draft card burning events.

Now, I don't see any "boxer burnings" in the news anytime soon.

The point clearly is that society didn't just one day say, "hey, women, you can wear whatever you want and we were wrong to require you to wear only dresses and skirts for all this time". I admire the women who challenged the stereotype. I admire that the generations that followed took up the issue and continued to define who they chose to be, rather than being forced back to Victorian thinking.

You'll probably never see a boxer burning either, because so many men are afraid of looking like they are gay. Even though it wasn't intentional, feminism inadvertently amplified the problem it was supposed to solve. In an effort to gain the same rights as men, they essentially made femininity seem inferior for both men and women. So now, even more than ever before, if someone expresses femininity, it's seen as climbing down the ladder.

[CaptLex]

So now, even more than ever before, if someone expresses femininity, it's seen as climbing down the ladder.

I think one has to have the guts to stand up and say, "Yeah, I'm feminine . . . so what? You got a problem with that?" Don't really see that happening on a worldwide basis because there's too much homophobia.

[HaleyPink2000]

Correct, but this has not always been so.

But on the other hand, men have always had the right to vote.

Females' freedom to wear what we choose didn't happen over night, and my "ForeMothers" were in the trenches fighting for the rights I now have.

I think MEN should also be allowed to "wear whatever the heck they want". I sincerely hope it happens sooner rather than later.

Your also correct!
My Father's Father's fought in the wars before women were able to. But that has nothing to do with clothing either like "voting rights"! It's like you said exactly, your Mother's Mother's fought for the rights to do certain things. One of those was to wear pants! LOL

[HaleyPink2000]

That's a bit optimistic. Recognition starts at home. Before corporate America starts recognizing us, we need our wives, girlfriends, mothers, etc to recognize us and not be ashamed of us.



But what would be the fun in that? If we dressed to blend in, it would be a waste to call it crossdressing.

Reginak your correct in so many ways!
The not be ashamed of being seen with us, or having others know we are CD, is a big thing needed worked on in my house! My own Wife said she'd say she knew nothing about my dressing, if anyone found out.

On the blending in thing! I dress to look the part of a female. I dress to be as female as I can be. I don't dress part way most of the time. It's all or nothjing for me mostly, or it's not fun. I love being invisible when at the mall, blending in does that for me. I don't want to stand out in the croud with a full beard and wear a dress. Thats way not me. Maybe it's what others like, but not me. Nothing wrong with it, if thats their thing. It's just not mine.

But as for your statement, your probably correct for many. I most likely would get along better with my wife if when I dressed, I did not try so hard, and look so female. She was totaly amazed the first time she did see me dressed. At how much I look like a GG. She could not get over it. It actually did piss her off, I know. I live with her, and I'll tell ya, She was pisst. Oh, and that was for a Halloween party.

You have a great weekend ReginaK.

BTW Thanks for this thred.

[Snookums]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."

I asked this in the lounge on another thread, but I'd like to know:

Would you (CD's) deny GG's the right to wear whatever they choose, and do you not consider this reverse discrimination, given the fact that this is exactly the right you wish to obtain?

I thought about this today. The heat index here is 109 F, and as I was working it occurred to me that IF I was wearing a dress and hose, I most likely would have either ripped them off by 10 AM or suffered heat stroke!

Fortunately, the dress code for my job is lax, so I wore a "dressy" skort with a short sleeved blouse~much like what you see women wearing on the golf course.

Can any of you see my point? It has been a very long journey from the Ms. Cleaver shirtwaist dress and apron, to working outside the home, in jobs previously thought to be for "men only". Certainly with those changes, the dress codes and trends for women changed also~sometimes out of necessity, but also out of choice.

What I'm trying to say, without sounding offensive is: It seems there is a mindset for some who, in attempting to climb that ladder of acceptance, would just as soon step on the necks of those who have already fought this battle in order to get there.

I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the GG's here support your (CD's) right to dress as you choose. Please don't put us down for having already fought the battle you now fight. We're on *your* side!

I would never deny anyone GG or other person the right to wear what they choose,but when men wear dresses,skirts flats or heels,we are declared sick.

[Julogden]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."

I asked this in the lounge on another thread, but I'd like to know:

Would you (CD's) deny GG's the right to wear whatever they choose, and do you not consider this reverse discrimination, given the fact that this is exactly the right you wish to obtain?

I thought about this today. The heat index here is 109 F, and as I was working it occurred to me that IF I was wearing a dress and hose, I most likely would have either ripped them off by 10 AM or suffered heat stroke!

Fortunately, the dress code for my job is lax, so I wore a "dressy" skort with a short sleeved blouse~much like what you see women wearing on the golf course.

Can any of you see my point? It has been a very long journey from the Ms. Cleaver shirtwaist dress and apron, to working outside the home, in jobs previously thought to be for "men only". Certainly with those changes, the dress codes and trends for women changed also~sometimes out of necessity, but also out of choice.

What I'm trying to say, without sounding offensive is: It seems there is a mindset for some who, in attempting to climb that ladder of acceptance, would just as soon step on the necks of those who have already fought this battle in order to get there.

I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the GG's here support your (CD's) right to dress as you choose. Please don't put us down for having already fought the battle you now fight. We're on *your* side!

Hi Vanya,

I feel that you're right on the money.

But let me play the devil's advocate here. These are NOT my opinions, just things that have occurred to me, and I'd like to hear other's opinions.

Might there be a double standard in the cases where a wife is non-accepting of her CD husband and gives him an ultimatum concerning what he can or can't wear? Think about it, how would a husband who tries to totally control how his wife looks be viewed?

Now I know what some might say: "I married a man and now he's decided to be a woman, and I don't find him attractive that way".

How about when a woman was a girly-girl before marriage and then decides to not wear makeup, cuts her hair short, starts wearing what are basically men's clothes and avoids skirts and dresses?

How about when a wife gains a huge amount of weight, or loses a lot of weight in cases where she was heavy before marriage and her husband likes her heavy?

In these cases, she has changed in ways that may easily affect her husband's attraction to her.

Do we fall in love with the person or with their image, an image that we may have constructed in our mind and may have nothing to do with the other person's reality?

Just some food for thought.

Carol, donning flack jacket and helmet

[noname]

So many of you GG talk about women fighting for your rights. Interesting, you fought for the right to serve in the armed forces but didn't fight to be included for drafting. I shouldn't be surprised with all your double standards.

// is moody today.

[Jennaie]

Huh?

[ashlee chiffon]

i just like to see an attractive woman dressup in skirts and dresses and makeup once in awhile, so i can appreciate all that is about...it's not criticism and it's fine if women don't want to do it...i can always to to the mall other shopping area to get the visual fix i enjoy...lots of dressed up gals there! Of course, women are also attractive in pants *back zip are sooo hot!*, denin, camo, sweats, etc...
I think it's only the cd's with ...other issues... that actually criticize women for what they wear or don't wear...and that is their opinion, but it is not the opinion of the majority of cd's i've known. We like women and their clothes and their whole essence too much to be so critical...
please... judge not the many by the words of a few....Luv!

[Angie G]

My wife some times wears my shirts and has put on some pounds in the last few years and I love her more every day and thank God she loves my even with my derssing when shes not in makeup & a dress or skirt maybe in sweats
she is still beautiful to me.
And with whatthe womam as put up with for fare to long now have the right to wear what they want
To all GG's I say you go girl
Angie G.

[CaptLex]

So many of you GG talk about women fighting for your rights. Interesting, you fought for the right to serve in the armed forces but didn't fight to be included for drafting. I shouldn't be surprised with all your double standards.

// is moody today.

"Moody today"? How is today any different from any other day? You've got real issues with women, huh?

[noname]

"Moody today"? How is today any different from any other day? You've got real issues with women, huh?

I don't have issues with women, I have issues with women with double standards which about 99.99% of them.

[CaptLex]

I don't have issues with women, I have issues with women with double standards which about 99.99% of them.

"You say tomato . . . I say tomahto". It just seems to me that a lot of your posts have the same "mommy, she's picking on me" theme to them. So you know 99.99% of women? I'm impressed.

[Annaliese]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."

I asked this in the lounge on another thread, but I'd like to know:

Would you (CD's) deny GG's the right to wear whatever they choose, and do you not consider this reverse discrimination, given the fact that this is exactly the right you wish to obtain?

I thought about this today. The heat index here is 109 F, and as I was working it occurred to me that IF I was wearing a dress and hose, I most likely would have either ripped them off by 10 AM or suffered heat stroke!

Fortunately, the dress code for my job is lax, so I wore a "dressy" skort with a short sleeved blouse~much like what you see women wearing on the golf course.

Can any of you see my point? It has been a very long journey from the Ms. Cleaver shirtwaist dress and apron, to working outside the home, in jobs previously thought to be for "men only". Certainly with those changes, the dress codes and trends for women changed also~sometimes out of necessity, but also out of choice.

What I'm trying to say, without sounding offensive is: It seems there is a mindset for some who, in attempting to climb that ladder of acceptance, would just as soon step on the necks of those who have already fought this battle in order to get there.

I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the GG's here support your (CD's) right to dress as you choose. Please don't put us down for having already fought the battle you now fight. We're on *your* side!

Yes when CD'er wine that GG can wear what they want, you called it like it is discrimination

[tekla west]

99.99% of all women don't think in any given way, that I'm pretty much sure about. And what is the base sample here? I know a lot of women and unless you are working on being intimate with them, they just don't care at all. Seems like a constant hostility here, which is odd, considering who we are.

[janedoe311]

When a GG wears pants is she crossdressing? No. Unless what she is doing is trying to accomplish F2M.

**********************************************

When my wife wears my shirt or pants is that crossdressing?
When a man wears a skirt on a hot day or to be confortable at home, is that crossdressing?

Most would say No to the first and Yes to the second.

But neither is trying to pass or bring out the “other side”.

So either wearing the clothes of the opposite sex is crossdressing or it is not. It should not make a difference the internal reason for it.

She wears my shirts because they are comfortable and he wears the skirt because it is comfortable.

But they are ALL crossdressing. When someone wears the clothes of the opposite sex they are crossdressing.

It is that the society sees it OK and not crossdressing if a woman does it.

[KateLongman27]

The REAL Problem is very simple We ALL are culturally conditioned to see a man wearing a dress as looking FOOLISH ===It evokes laughter just as much as a clown's costume designed for the purpose.

What about Eddie Izzard? He cross dresses doesn't pass but is accepted maybe becuase he has gotten respect, mainly from his comedy routines etc but isn't the main point is being able to wear what you like without being demeanoured or falling foul of abuse etc. to wear what you like? It's only because society and people within this society that encourages the ideas of men wearing dresses etc. is wrong and should be disavowed/outcast

Even some of us less "sensitive" CDs have laughed at the sight---of course many of us remember Milton Byrle. Its for THIS reason, if a guy IS gonna CD in public he had better well look "real" when doing it.

So what you're saying is that if I want to wear a dress, no makeup etc. then I shouldn't bother? Because to me this is the whole point in the twenties if a women was seen to be wearing men's clothing then she would be classed as a lesbian and be laughed and ridiculed. Yet they still did it and today what do you know women are wearing men's clothing without batting an eye lid! So why should "a guy gonna CD in public he had better well look "real" when doing it"? Isn't our society meant to be based on uniqueness and freedom of expression within the "given criminal laws"?

Those who do not PASS pay the price---but for many, the ridicule may be worth the price of admission, so to speak. to others it is not. Its no use griping about an aspect of society we cant change. We KNOW what people laugh at and should expect it if we insist on public Cding, Just as the clown expects to be laughed in his costume---it would make little sense for the clown to complain about being laughed at in public when wearing his funny clothes and makeup.

"It's no use griping about an aspect of scoiety we can't change" - This is absolutely ********, we do have a right, we vote, we can write to MPs, Members of Congress, Senators etc. to encourage laws to support CDers in work etc. Yes we know what people laugh at but again it boils down to the viewpoint of society that it is unacceptable for men to wear dresses, I for one when I have kids will encourage free thought and hence will ensure that they have a belief of its right for a man to wear a dress etc. When the viewpoint of: it is unacceptable for a man to wear makeup and a dress etc. dies the laughing will die. Its certain people with an attitude of "Oh, look there's a man in a dress" well in 50 yrs time probably no one will bat an eyelid because down the line somewhere there will be an activist who changes societies view and ensures that a man wearing a dress, makeup etc is accepted and treated equally

My point is we cant change society, the culture is what it is. A CD in public knows the risk. Its how the CD handles the situation that counts. Its a voluntary act, that must be worth the risk to the CDer to do it.

That is a defeatist attitude society can change! It may take a while but it eventually will change, look at gay marriages, look at women's voting rights, look at slavery, look at gay rights c.f. 50 - 100 years ago, over that period soceity has changed because people stood up and changed society.

Next thing we'll know about is the government (like the KGB in the cold war etc.) having the right to detain you because you CD, this is an extreme point but if people do not stand up and say I want to change the general consensus that men can wear dresses etc, without people thinking that they're perverts etc. then we will always be looked down upon

[Satrana]

How about when a woman was a girly-girl before marriage and then decides to not wear makeup, cuts her hair short, starts wearing what are basically men's clothes and avoids skirts and dresses?

If we are brutually honest then this scenario occurs in probably 50% of marriages. There may be lots of different and valid reasons why this happens but many women are no longer interested in maintaining a feminine image after a few years together so many men do end up with a partner who no longer looks and behaves anything like the feminine girl he initially dated.

Everybody changes over time, nobody is the same person they were years earlier. Men accept women can masculize their appearance but few women accept any degree of feminization in men.

[Satrana]

**********************************************

When my wife wears my shirt or pants is that crossdressing?
When a man wears a skirt on a hot day or to be confortable at home, is that crossdressing?

Most would say No to the first and Yes to the second.

But neither is trying to pass or bring out the “other side”.

Correct, only some men crossdress for gender reasons, many crossdress just because they like the look and feel of the clothes. It is society's double standard which labels these men crossdressers and women not. There is no clear dividing line.

[Raychel]

I guess that my opinion on this is the same as my wife's. You should wear whatever you are comfortable in. I will admit that it is not the most sexiest thing to see a woman dressed in men's clothes. But then if a GG sees a crossdresser, I would bet that the frist thing that comes to her mind is NOT "He/She is hot, would I love to get him in bed"

[Cassy11]

I'm confused. When we talk about a double standard are we talking about a woman in pants which looks normal vs a man in feminine clothes which dosen't look normal, or women in general that don't dress feminine so that when we do we stand out?
If you look out of place expect to be closer look.