Where are they ?

[Marla S]

Where are the TGs that are not prone to clothes and outer appearence ?

It is often said, that there is a continuum of TGs.
It is often said I feel feminine.

Clothes and outer appearence are only a very small part of an identity, though an important one. They reinforce the personality by symbols and are the visible expression of some state of mind, which is easily recognizable by the other people. Nevertheless clothes are only a superficial aid.

Is TG possible without clothes ?

If, where are those TGs ?

[Kate Simmons]

Yep. Being Ericka is a state of mind for me and a mindset. I can be Ericka (or a reasonable facsimile) when I'm Eric, Kay or Richard, although Ericka seems to be the control presona in all of them. Even when I present myself as a guy (for working, etc.) Ericka is there, believe it! Ericka Kay

[Charleen]

Lily is Lily no matter how I'm dressed.

[Daintre]

I have to agree also, Jenni is here no matter what I am wearing.

[Marla S]

Thanks for your replies, but that was not quite what I meant.
Of course, if you somehow integrated your fem and male aspects, you are always yourself.
I am more asking for people that wouldn't come to a CD-forum, because they are TG without expressing it by wearing clothes of the opposite sex at times.

In other words: Are there TGs that might not even know that they are TGs (or are not labled as such), because they don't clash with the actual culture in a way we do, due to expressing themselves by other means than wearing clothes ?

I am asking because you can live a kind of a "normal" life no matter what you think and do, as long as you don't wear clothes of the opposite sex. If only the clothes make you TG, there seems to be something odd with the concept of TG for me.

[Kate Simmons]

I think there are Marla. Just don't know how you would find them or pick them out of a crowd, especially if they are unaware of being "different" themselves. I knew some people growing up that seemed to dress appropriately to their sex but acted sometimes in a way I thought was contrary. The ones I saw were not gay and seemed to be happily married. It did puzzle me a little. Maybe these are the ones you are referring to? Ericka Kay

[Karren H]

I'm shallow........clothes, clothes, clothes....hehehe

Love Karren

[Tina Dixon]

I'm shallow........clothes, clothes, clothes....hehehe

Love Karren

I'm with you.

[Kate Simmons]

I'm shallow........clothes, clothes, clothes....hehehe

Love Karren

No problem with that Karren. We can be shallow together. I'm not ALL about theory ya know and do enjoy dressing. Marla is just asking if there is anyone out there who presents themselves in a different way. I like mine just fine. Ericka Kay

[Marla S]

I'm shallow........clothes, clothes, clothes....hehehe

Love Karren

I'm with you.

Some are gifted.

[Charleen]

Tough question Marla. I'm pretty sure there are, yet how would we know, if even they don't? I know when I was starting out, I was extremely confused about my need to CD. I still continued, not knowing the whys and wherefores, and I'm pretty sure there are some through the use of will power,guilt, or both who stopped CDing, yet even though they have denied that to themselves, are still TG, and have to deal with those internal feelings on a regular basis. So, yeah, I'd have to say that there are TGs who are not aware that they are TGs. Probably do to social and cultural or religious situations that they are in. They ae fighting something inside, and might not know what they are fighting, or do know and are ashamed, yet as we know, they can't win, or continually supress who they are. I just realised as I wrote this that I feel sorry for those that I have described. Love and xxxx, Lily

[Ms. Donna]

In other words: Are there TGs that might not even know that they are TGs (or are not labled as such), because they don't clash with the actual culture in a way we do, due to expressing themselves by other means than wearing clothes ?

I am asking because you can live a kind of a "normal" life no matter what you think and do, as long as you don't wear clothes of the opposite sex. If only the clothes make you TG, there seems to be something odd with the concept of TG for me.

The clothes wind up being such an important part of this simply because how we dress is one of the most powerful signifiers we have. People place so much importance on how one appears - especially in the business world - that what you wear and how you present yourself seems to make all the difference.

It winds up being near impossible to be gendered as and treated like 'a woman' in jeans, a flannel shirt, work boots with a beard. One could declare all they want that they are 'a woman' and it will go nowhere. However, dress the part and you have a better chance of people listening to you.

Yes, one can be TG and not crossdress - it is not a requirement. But, it is exceedingly difficult to be something - to have an identity - and yet not express it at all. This is why co many TG people experience 'dysphoria' of some sort - because they wind up acting in opposition to their nature - tryig to be something they are not.

Are they out there? I'm sure they are. But I doubt that their lives are anything but 'normal'.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Stephenie S]

I am sure they are out there, BUT . .

You are asking, on a crossdressers' forum, for people who feel femiinine but don't crossdress!

So you see the problem? Aren't any here.

Steph

[KarenSusan]

I one time took an adult course in German at the local community college. The instructor was the most effeminate man I had ever seen. His speech patterns, his mannerisms, his way of sitting, everything was womanly. Yet he was married and had children. He had been in the army stationed in Germany where he had learned the language.
Assuming that this person was not a CD (and I don't know that he wasn't), it would seem that this person was at least leaning toward the TG side of the spectrum.

[Marla S]

Tough question Marla.

That's why I asked

They ae fighting something inside, and might not know what they are fighting, or do know and are ashamed, yet as we know, they can't win, or continually supress who they are. I just realised as I wrote this that I feel sorry for those that I have described.

Hm, yes, if it is the way you wrote that might have a dramatic impact. I am just asking myself if some kind of misogyny is rooted here.

The clothes wind up being such an important part of this simply because how we dress is one of the most powerful signifiers we have.

That's true, and maybe my question therefor is not a legitimate one, if those signifiers are inseparable linked to a "feminine identity" (whatever that is).

It winds up being near impossible to be gendered as and treated like 'a woman' in jeans, a flannel shirt, work boots with a beard. One could declare all they want that they are 'a woman' and it will go nowhere. However, dress the part and you have a better chance of people listening to you.

Yes, one can be TG and not crossdress - it is not a requirement. But, it is exceedingly difficult to be something - to have an identity - and yet not express it at all. This is why co many TG people experience 'dysphoria' of some sort - because they wind up acting in opposition to their nature - tryig to be something they are not.

I think this is very important.
This boils transgenderism down to "becoming accepted as a representative of the opposite sex" and to denfine once identitiy this way.
A self-identification by others using clothes and more as aid (a bit simplistic, I know).
The Holy Grail for some and the Golden Calf for others ?

I am sure they are out there, BUT . .

You are asking, on a crossdressers' forum, for people who feel femiinine but don't crossdress!

So you see the problem? Aren't any here.

Steph

I am asking for the opinion of other people, in order to scrutinize my thoughts and to learn. I am well aware that non-CD-TGs are not here, otherwise I would have asked them directly about their point of view (if you have a link).

I one time took an adult course in German at the local community college. The instructor was the most effeminate man I had ever seen. His speech patterns, his mannerisms, his way of sitting, everything was womanly. Yet he was married and had children. He had been in the army stationed in Germany where he had learned the language.
Assuming that this person was not a CD (and I don't know that he wasn't), it would seem that this person was at least leaning toward the TG side of the spectrum.

This probably would be a good candidate for what I meant. Very interesting

[DAVIDA]

Let me get this straight. Can there be a TG that doesn't know that they are TG, who doesn't dress ,and wouldn't be looking here anyway?

[Sarah Smile]

Let me get this straight. Can there be a TG that doesn't know that they are TG, who doesn't dress ,and wouldn't be looking here anyway?

Oh, yes definitely! I used to be one of them. But I have since come to realize that I am TG and now I am here!

[ReginaK]

You will find non-clothes oriented TG people among groups where TGism is fairly unknown of. Extremely effininate men are an example. And a lot of the more effeminate gay men may be good candidates as well. Especially among communities that have very rigid gender roles where TG people just assume they are gay because they don't act like macho men.

[Scotty]

I don't dress a LOT of the time, although I have a femme side in shorts and tank tops and the neighbors all know that.

But for me it's inside, and physical as well, I enjoy the breasts, thighs, and hips that I have now, clearly feminine.

It makes me feel like who I should be.

It also allows me to stay in the closet comfortably, where I prefer to be.

Will I ever cross over, doubtful, I'm halfway here and that does the trick for me......

[Satrana]

I am asking because you can live a kind of a "normal" life no matter what you think and do, as long as you don't wear clothes of the opposite sex. If only the clothes make you TG, there seems to be something odd with the concept of TG for me.

Well if you are a guy then you may just be suppressing your TG nature because you assume it has to do with your sexuality, or maybe you are suppressing it because of religous beliefs or just plain fear of losing your wife/job.

If you are female then most likely you can probably satisfy your needs by wearing masculine clothes and not recognize that you are a CD.

It is a chicken and egg situation - which comes first - the TG feelings then the clothes, or the clothes first then the TG feelings. I think both happen together. If you suppress one you suppress the other.

[Marla S]

Let me get this straight. Can there be a TG that doesn't know that they are TG, who doesn't dress ,and wouldn't be looking here anyway?

Let me try to explain where this confusing thought has its seeds in.

A lot is talked about the "feminine self" or the "feminine side"
What does that mean ?
(1) It can't mean my "female self", "female side", because as long as your are not a GG this is excluded.
(2) It could mean having some traits that are usually assigned to women. Usually because a lot of these traits are gender independent in principle, but are assigned to one gender for cultural and traditional reasons.
(3) It could mean my "woman self" or my "woman side". As a personal feeling this is not judgable, as a role it depends to a good part on others to decide this.

The intention of my question referred to those belonging to (2).
Like I initially said, clothes and outer appearence are a very small part of feminity (though an important one). Other feminine traits are independent of clothes, among them some of the most important/influencing ones: sympathy, receptivity, sensitivity, aesthetics, high language skills etc.
We don't talk much about this traits here, though they are a crucial part of the ideal "womenhood" ("better world" as some say).
On the other side there are men having these skills/traits without being seen as TG. I. e. a poet has high language skills, a priest might have a lot of sympathy, artists and fashion designers have high sense for aesthetics, etc.
Paradoxically all these feminine traits/skills become male dominated on a professional basis, because feminine traits/skills become masculine ones, hence accepted for men, by making them a breadwinner activity - the classical male part.
So, this could be seen as a sort of transgenderism too.

What we are talking about here predominately is the limited, nevertheless important, part of being accepted as a woman due to the outer appearence (but not so much because we have some of the mentioned traits/skills). Either by self-assessment (look into the mirror), on a quick view by others (passing), or by adapting as good as possible (transitioning).

Another variety of non-CDing TGs, I didn't thought of, are described in those posts that refer to surpressed feelings. We all know which dramatic impact this might have for oneself and others. (Thanks a lot for your replies, BTW)

[Sky]

Let me try to explain where this confusing thought has its seeds in.

In translation I think (I'm referring to the entire thread, not a specific question). German analytic style doesn't go well with American quick, impulsive answering. Of course I may be oversimplifying it, but I think that's where the root is.

As a South American (which understands neither Germans nor Americans) I'd rather watch from the sidelines.

[Marla S]

In translation I think (I'm referring to the entire thread, not a specific question). German analytic style doesn't go well with American quick, impulsive answering. Of course I may be oversimplifying it, but I think that's where the root is.

As a South American (which understands neither Germans nor Americans) I'd rather watch from the sidelines.

That might be true
But that part makes it even more interesting and teaching. Circling in own thoughts and ways of thinking isn't always a good way to make progress.
I admit though, that TG is complex enough and wouldn't require a additional country (language) dependent interpretation

[Sky]

But that part makes it even more interesting and teaching. Circling in own thoughts and ways of thinking isn't always a good way to make progress.

And that is true

[Ms. Donna]

You will find non-clothes oriented TG people among groups where TGism is fairly unknown of. Extremely effininate men are an example. And a lot of the more effeminate gay men may be good candidates as well. Especially among communities that have very rigid gender roles where TG people just assume they are gay because they don't act like macho men.

Excellent point. There are many who hug the outer edges of the gay and lesbian communities - unwilling to let go of 'man' or 'woman' regardless of how outwardly trans they might be. In many ways, it's easier to be gay or lesbian that to be trans.

People 'get' being gay or lesbian - they may not 'like' it - but they understand it for the most part. To be gay or lesbian is to be a part of not just those communities, but of the larger social groups 'men' and 'women' as well. Once you identify as 'trans', you pretty much shut yourself out of those groups. People don't understand 'trans' - they don't 'get it'.

Love & Stuff,
Donna