Oh s*** - what do I do?

[sandra-leigh]

Someone was ACTIVELY doing things do undermine you and your authority, which affected the business operations as well as your well being. The situation described here entailed people expressing opinions.

Yes, but the reason it worked for them was that the workplace has a culture of bad-mouthing, and there has never been a serious effort to transform that into a culture of respect.

Expressing opinions is one of our fundamental rights, at least for the time being.

No: in Canada and the USA "Freedom of Speech" applies to public speech, not to the workplace.

I don't just mean that in a facile way. I have spent a fair bit of time reading about rights of expression and communications, including discussing the points with lawyers. I have a personal interest in the topic, and it was also part of my job.
The only "Freedom of Speech" that applies in the workplace is that which is explicitly granted by the employer under some conditions, circumscribed by Civil Rights or Human Rights acts and Labor Codes or Labour Codes, and augmented only by any "whistleblower" or mandatory reporting legislation applicable to the situation.

If someone has an opinion that is inconsistant with the limits laid down by the employer and the applicable laws, then to the extent that the opinion does not reveal anything restricted by a confidentiality agreement or secrecy oath, the person may reveal the opinion in a public place or in a private dweeling where they have been permitted to reveal it -- but if they are in the workplace, then they must conform to any employment code and laws. Hereabouts, those laws include e.g., non-discrimination on any of the "Prohibitted Grounds" of the Canada Human Rights Act.

Bad-mouthing and denigration has no place in the workplace, not even in "private conversations". There is no right to express such things on the employer's time or on the employer's property.

[trannie T]

1. They were not engaged in a private conversation, if they could easily b e overheard they have no reasonablr expectation of privacy.

2. Their remarks were insensitive at best and bordering on hate speach at worst.

This type of behavior has absolutely no business in the workplace. Looks like more training in cultural issues is necessary.

[sandra-leigh]

In my opinion, you are wrong.

Key word here "OPINION". Doesn't make it wrong, discriminatory or illegal. You have the right to express your opinion even if it hurst someone.

Well, No. As a point of law, you do NOT have the right to express opinions in the workplace, or in any private place that you do not control (and even in private places, not on all occasions).

For example, if I were to post some really obnoxious remark here, one of the administrators could delete my post or ban me from the site entirely. But according to what you have written, I have a "right" to express my opinion, no matter how hurtful. So would the administrators here be violating my rights by deleting or blocking? The legal answer is NO: this forum is not a Public Place, this is a private place where Free Speech rights do not apply. Workplaces are not Public Places either: Free Speech rights do not apply in them.

You can't stop people from speaking their minds just because you don't like it.

Incorrect. In a workplace, you can stop people from speaking their minds, except where some law has specifically required their report (e.g., health and safety). Consider, for example, all the US states and federal locations in which doctors are flat out prohibitted from discussing abortion under most circumstances.

Furthermore, as I previously mentioned, in some jurisdictions, for some forms of expression, you (managers and up) must stop people from speaking their mind in the workplace.

If I were still a manager, and I were to walk by someone's office here, and I overheard someone referring to someone else as (say) "a faggot", then I could literally be jailed if I ignored the matter and left it alone. No choice: supervisor and up must act to prevent "a hostile workplace environment". I might have been the one to overhear that particular remark, but other people might overhear other remarks.

If you can overhear the conversation by accident, then the conversation was not a private conversation. And even if no-one overhears, some conversations are simply not acceptable in the workplace.

Are you familiar with the 1994 civil rights case against Texaco?
http://www.parl.gc.ca/35/2/parlbus/c...MK3A.H3IV9G.QA
I would post a few sentances of what was recorded on tape in a closed meeting in the Texaco boardroom in August 1994, but I cannot bring myself to do so, even for point of illustration.
I would urge that if you still feel that hurtful opinions are permissible in the workplace, that you examine the above link and see what kinds of things get said in "private conversations" in workplaces which have not made a conscious effort to inculcate respect.

[Scotty]

Simple response from me would be something along the lines of

"She's got more balls than any of you will ever have"..

But then most people don't want to be involved and it could open up some unwanted doors......

And Lisa - You always seem so quiet, I can't imagine you saying that!!

[Stephenie S]

Put the shoe on another foot and see what you think.

Supose for a minute that you are an African American sitting eating lunch in the break room and two fellow employees are yukking it up making fun of ni***rs. Or what if you are Jewish and your two co-workers are making fun of kikes? Or you are a blond woman and they are telling stupid blond jokes. All of these examples contain behavior which has no business in the workplace. In which one of them would you speak up? Would you say anything at all? Of course you can say, "Well, it's just their opinion". But all of these behaviors represents discrimination to some degree. Where do we draw the line?

I think if you are unwilling to speak out, you should at least speak to HR about the fact that you overheard this. It's easy to remain silent but it's also wrong.

Stephenie

[Blonde]

Touchy ground here.....So many factors here in this problem. And with the story about the guy getting fired over his comments.....it brings "home" the powers of "1984".....Where does one draw the line?
Were the comments made for the whole office to hear them, or were they just ment for the person he was talking to? (and you just happened to overhear them)
If they were loud enough for the office to hear, then yes talk to HR....but if not, don't talk to HR. (Are you "big brother"?)

Even Ignorant "a#$3s" have a right to thier opinion. It would be nice if everyone was intelligent enought to understand the divercity of the world, but some choose to "wallow" in thier ignorance.

Now don't get me wrong here... I don't agree with what he said, and believe he needs "re-education" on the subject, but the day anyone is not allowed thier own opinion (even if it is uniformed) is the day that opens the door for "thought control" (which could affect all of us who do not "conform" to the norm sooner or later)

[Helen MC]

Two points seem to occur here.

Firstly, we are NOT Canada nor one of the more enlightened States of the USA. In the Uk whilst it is illegal to make derogatory remarks about Homosexuals, Blacks and other Races, the Disabled, Women and recently Older Employees, and many employers have a Code of Conduct which threatens Disciplinary Action up to Dismissal for making such remarks be they jokes or serious in the workplace, there is as far as I am aware no such legally backed protection for Transvestites. As has also been said the person being discussed didn't work there so your HR Dept could do very little. BTW HR is NOT there to help the Worker, it is what it says on the tin, HUMAN RESOURCES part of Management as is the Accounts Dept or Logistics, only it manages the Workforce as a RESOURCE much as the Stores manage Components and Materials, and Engineering and Maintenance will manage the Machinery, or IT the Computers. So don't get sentimental about HR, they will get rid of the broken cog in the machine as surely as Maintenance would scrap a worn out grinder.

I very seriously advise you NOT to reveal yourself nor do anything which would cause suspicion about your own CD situation. I have in the past been accidentally "busted" in a hostile work environment and it made my life there a misery till I got another job. I'm sad to say that unless you wish to be a Martyr for the Cause you will have to grin and bear it or change jobs if it bugs you that much.

On the other matter raised of "Disparaging the Boss" let's get real here folks. Nearly every employee does that for time to time, some more than others and unless the comments are slanderous or grossly abusive most wise Managers etc simply ignore it. The "one big happy family" Employment scenario is for TV shows only. In real life, at least here in the UK, there is an adversarial situation in most Companies of any appreciable size , "US" the Ordinary Workers and "THEM" the Bosses, Managers, Supervisors or whatever name is fashionable this week. Moaning is a way to get it out of your system to fellow workers. If a Company tried to suppress this then disatisfaction could turn to more serious means such as sabotage. Most firms, unless there is a recognised Trade Union, do not have a decent consultative system and thus a culture of disatisfaction is present and will result in running down "The Boss", managers, supervisors etc , when they are out of earshot of course. There is also the feeling that whilst an Employee works for a Company he or she will hate it in many ways and disparage some of its polices and activities. Again as long as they are not doing so to customers and risking the loss of business this is par for the course in most places. Here in the UK we do not "Sing the Company song" like the Japs do, it's not in our Culture. Most people work for their wages and when they clock off and walk out the door at the end of the working day they do not want to know about their Employer until the they go back to work again and do their 8 hours.

[AprilMae]

Give Helen a Bra and Garter Belt out of Petty Cash. She has summed it up nicely.

[Joy Carter]

Ya know Tess you are right about the work place issue. But does that cover only select groups ??

", then I could literally be jailed if I ignored the matter and left it alone."

I have heard of fines being levied but jail time for not addressing one's subtenants speech ?

[Emma_Forbes]

First I'd like to sincerely thank all those who have taken the time to reply whether it be a few words or a weighty tome....

The legal issues, which are not perhaps so pronounced here in the UK, are interesting and, in my opinion not the way to go.

In this case, I will do nothing as the opoortune moment has now passed and there is my anonymity to consider. If that is deemed to be the easy way out, then so be it.

However I am sad that today's society has been so conditioned and legislated to be tolerant that it has actually become less tolerant. The ideal solution would I think to have said something like, "That's a rather unkind way of speaking about someone else. Couldn't you be a bit more gracious and accepting in your views?" Unfortunately the current pc climate has actually made advice like that more difficult.

If a similar situation arises over another minority group with whom I have no covert connection, I may well challenge them directly with such a comment. Perhaps that will suggest to them that there is no need to be derogatory or rude and cause a change in their behaviour. In my dreams......

Thanks again to all,

Em