CD stuff that puzzles me

[Robin Leigh]

Sure, LGs may wear lipstick and nailpolish, but it is something "special" -- something really girly, rather than makeup as a fundamental part of dressing as is often the case when "passing' is the goal. There is certainly no prohibition on LGs wearing makeup, but the goal is different, so I have seen a lot of Cindarella "peel off" pink nails, a bunch of sweet flavored lipsticks, and the ever present, cloyingly sweet scents of Cotton Candy and similar spritz-on children's body sprays and shampoos.

On the other hand, I have only seen a very few LGs with the full makeup the girls in pageants trowel on, where the goal appears to be looking older and more mature. If anything, LGs generally want to feel younger and makeup is seen as "play" rather than a presentation requirement.

Thanks for your reply, Taffy. What you say makes sense. I expected that LGs would be much more interested in sweet lipsticks & other "toy" makeup than women's makeup.

My 3 sisters loved playing dress-ups. Of course, in this type of dressing, the goal is to appear grown-up, usually. When Mum became an Avon lady, she had tons of makeup samples & my sisters were in heaven.

An anecdote: The first two LG Camps were held coincident with the regular CD weekends. While the BGs were getting makeovers and looking over the usual collection of forms and lingerie, the LGs were having a birthday party and craft class. I believe we made lanyards at the first Camp and Christmas ornaments at the second. At the second Camp a psychologist presented her thesis that "all crossdressing is sexual" to a packed audience of BGs while the LGs were off on the screen porch having root beer floats and playing board games. She later came out to discover why we had not sat through her presentation and was confronted by a real-life counter-example to her thesis. She did not hang around...

Beautiful, Taffy!

It must be tough being an LG. But I guess that it not being sexual & you not needing to go out en femme & mix with the general public does make some things easier. However, I expect that LGs hold GG little girls in the highest esteem and that it must be very painful for you when people accuse you of having perverse desires towards them. It must take a lot of courage & belief in yourself to cope with things like that.

It's interesting that nobody's commented yet on my "Year for a Day" fantasy. Maybe it's just too weird (or scary) for most of us.



Robin

[tekla west]

I would, but like the Ents, it all seemed 'so hasty'. I would rather take at lest a day at each, if not a week. Still, I have to give it up to you for telling the truth. A whole lot of people who responded in the negitive I'm sure have LG panties somewhere in thier stash.

And I'm down with the LG deal. Its not me. But I like it just the same. Its so cute. Its just too bad that LGs, grow up to be BBs.

[Taffy]

Ah, Robin, but the Year for a Day effort requires one to grow older, but most LGs stay the same age forever. For example, I am always 10 and never get any older. Hence the last line in my signature -- I choose to never exercise the option of growing up.

[jenniferfvs]

Hi Marina, Point by point:

1. I know a lot of gay guys. In my sphere of frineds, not one of them is a CD. I think it is a small minority.

2. CDing like "Little girls".? Most CDs start as little girls. Some may never grow up and feel that they are little girls but not attracted to little girls. Many of us do not mature in the same normal proccess as GGs do. I'm 54 and haven't grown up yet.

3. CDing without makeup? Not everybody is turned on by completely being dressed as a woman. To an ax carrying, bearded, lumberjack with a shoe fettish for example, high heels may be all that is needed. That's just one example. It could be a teddy, a bra, panties, stockings, skirts, dresses, slips, a purse, jewelry, etc. Maybe you are thinking in terms of the complete, perfect passing woman. Everyone is different and it may be only one facet that turns some one on.

[jenniferfvs]

As a scientist you may be dissappointed to find that CDs are like snow flakes. No two are exactly alike. There are no simple cut and dried answers.

[Fallen Angel]

No 1 I my self go to a gay comunity and yes there are the male and fem side to there partnerships but ive never seen one dressed as a female.

No2 I think thats something that has nothing to do with cding at all and is a derversity all its own

No 3 there are many that are just as content wearing heels to panties as those who dress fully.I have a close freind that just wears purfume and has no desire to dress at all but still feels femy

[Delila]

Sorry if I repeat anything but... The reason that I think that people associate gay and crossdressing is because of drag queens. I would hope that any self respecting cder knows the dif between a cder and a drag queen. Namely drag queens over dress not trying to look like women so much as just looking sparkly. My thought on why people like to dress like little girls is that they are at a different stage of their mental age with cding E.G. a person who has just started cding will be growing from a young age and dressing appropriatly. As for the makeup part. How many women do you know that wear makeup every day? If you are truly feminine I would have to say that you would act like an average female and wear full makeup when it is appropriate not every day. Sorry if my opinions are unwelcome.

[Robin Leigh]

I would, but like the Ents, it all seemed 'so hasty'. I would rather take at lest a day at each, if not a week. Still, I have to give it up to you for telling the truth. A whole lot of people who responded in the negitive I'm sure have LG panties somewhere in thier stash.

And I'm down with the LG deal. Its not me. But I like it just the same. Its so cute. Its just too bad that LGs, grow up to be BBs.

It's not me, either, but I do enjoy the fantasy of a time-compressed girlhood from time to time. I suppose that means I have a slight taste for Forced Feminization. As you say, a day is probably too short, but who has the time to do this properly?

Ah, Robin, but the Year for a Day effort requires one to grow older, but most LGs stay the same age forever. For example, I am always 10 and never get any older. Hence the last line in my signature -- I choose to never exercise the option of growing up.

Yes, my Year for a Day fantasy was more aimed at the BGs. I expected that you LGs would "drop out" when you hit your desired age.

As an "erotic" CDer, I wouldn't be comfortable dressed as an LG (although it was fun when I was in those school plays). But I think I could cope with interacting with LGs. I'm very good at reading fairy tales.

Sometimes I fantasize that I'm a little girl dressing up as a big girl.



Robin

[Robin Leigh]

My thought on why people like to dress like little girls is that they are at a different stage of their mental age with cding E.G. a person who has just started cding will be growing from a young age and dressing appropriatly.

I don't think it's as simple as that, though. Consider: In one respect, Taffy enjoys identifying as a ten year old girl, but OTOH, she expresses herself in a mature & sophisticated adult manner. She is certainly one of the more skilled communicators we have on our forum.

Before we start making up theories to explain LGs, maybe we should ask them what they think.



Robin

[Beth-GDB]

I'll just add my random thoughts about the original questions.

1: I'm not aware that CDing is more common among gay people than among straight people.

2: MY personal inclination on adults CDing as pre-teen girls is that they probably share some of the underlying motivations as adults who are into infantilism, although not to the same degree as the dedicated infantilists.

For my own part I've bought teen girls clothes for myself in the past, mostly because I look old enough to have teenaged children of my own. At the time I went through that period of my buying habits I thought it would look less odd if I appeared to be buying clothes for a child rather than adult women's clothes. These days I just buy whatever I want and rarely waste any time thinking about what other people in the store might think. There's also the aspect that my own memories of realising that I was genuinely interested in wearing femme clothes stem from my early teen years and maybe there is some aspect of "recapturing the lost time and opportunities" of my past. Even to this day I often daydream about "what might have been" if I'd had the courage and support at the time to come out back then. I went to a coed highschool for several years that had manditory uniforms and while the girls uniform wasn't what would be considered particularly cute, I still would have liked the chance to wear it.

3: Makeup. I don't have the first clue about doing makeup properly, and since I currently don't go out dressed I don't have any real need for makeup, but getting some lessons on applying makeup is on my list of things to do. Why? Because I don't want to look obviously like a man in drag if I do go out dressed. I fully accept that I'll never look completely convincing, but as long as I can look good enough to not attract excessive attention, I'd be very happy with that. There's no way I could accomplish that with no makeup.

[Taffy]

My thought on why people like to dress like little girls is that they are at a different stage of their mental age with cding, e.g., a person who has just started CDing will be growing from a young age and dressing appropriately.

Hmmm, methinks it is a bit more complicated than that and may have to do with the environment in which the individual is raised. For me, childhood was not a particularly pleasant experience. What I observed as a girl's existence appeared as more desirable and more fun than mine, and girl's clothing was certainly a whole lot prettier than boy's. I did not see an adult woman's existence as desirable, nor did I find their clothing interesting.

I tend to believe that CDs have an inborn tendency toward crossdressing that manifests itself at a particular "magic" age and, depending upon the cues present at that time, they will imprint on that which is perceived as desireable. If they see older females as a positive model, they will embrace the style of clothing worn by those models, which explains why a lot of CDers "dress like their mothers". OTOH, if the positive models are younger or of the same age, they MAY choose the LG path. I believe this "imprinting" is significant and occurs during a fairly narrow window.

A number of LGs I have discussed this with thought they should "dress" their physical age and had become very unhappy BGs, feeling somehow out of touch with who they really were. Some of them drifted into the sissy community only to be repelled by the concept of dressing as a form of discipline, i.e., how can doing something that feels so good really be a form of punishment when you want to do it anyway. "Toss me into that briar patch..." Each of them managed to make it to the point where they recognized that dressing on their own, rather than being forced, and dressing in the styles to which they were imprinted was exactly what was needed. I, for example, love school uniforms, but the uniforms tend to be the styles common to the 1950s. Another LG is imprinted on the school uniforms of the 1980s and finds the styles I love "dated", but then she would have been at the "magic age" when this imprinting occurred in the 1980s.

As to whether dressing one's age is something one "grows" into, I am not certain. I do not find any increased fascination with adult styles over time and walk by Victoria's Secret with a yawn, rather repelled by the display of provocative lingerie. While I like cheer uniforms, I love the older, more modest ones and won't look twice at the newer, more adult styles.

Sorry if my opinions are unwelcome.

Opinions are always welcome. Absolutely no one has a monopoly on either the truth or observations on reality.

[Taffy]

I don't think it's as simple as that, though. Consider: In one respect, Taffy enjoys identifying as a ten year old girl, but OTOH, she expresses herself in a mature & sophisticated adult manner. She is certainly one of the more skilled communicators we have on our forum.

One of the characteristics shown by girls I admired while growing up was a fascination with language and their desire to speak both correctly and with thought. The adults I was exposed to were duplicitous and evasive. An intellectually precocious 10-year old girl of the late 1950s is my model and, to her, expressing oneself clearly was paramount. How better to describe the beauty of a doll or her outfit than to use proper English and the correct terms? How can you have a tea party without knowing which fork or spoon to use? How would you greet the Queen?

Some LGs, perhaps because they came to recognize who they were only after going through the sissy or AB (adult baby) community, speak in toddler talk. I came to recognize who I was relatively late in life, with no prior exposure to these communities. Additionally, a number of LGs attempt to separate their personality into two sides, the male which they refer to as "Daddy" or "Big Brother" and their female side which they refer to by name. I believe this is fundamentally unhealthy and have said so often, much to the consternation of some LGs. Integrating both aspects of one's personality into a coherent whole leads to a richer and more fulfilling life, or at least it has in mine...

[Taffy]

MY personal inclination on adults CDing as pre-teen girls is that they probably share some of the underlying motivations as adults who are into infantilism, although not to the same degree as the dedicated infantilists.

Perhaps. I know some LGs who claim to have both and LG and an AB (infantilist) side. I have looked pretty thoroughly and don't find much to lead me to believe I have such within myself. Most likely it is due to the lack of any positive models of such when I was growing up.

For my own part I've bought teen girls clothes for myself in the past, mostly because I look old enough to have teenaged children of my own. At the time I went through that period of my buying habits I thought it would look less odd if I appeared to be buying clothes for a child rather than adult women's clothes. These days I just buy whatever I want and rarely waste any time thinking about what other people in the store might think. There's also the aspect that my own memories of realising that I was genuinely interested in wearing femme clothes stem from my early teen years and maybe there is some aspect of "recapturing the lost time and opportunities" of my past. Even to this day I often daydream about "what might have been" if I'd had the courage and support at the time to come out back then. I went to a coed highschool for several years that had manditory uniforms and while the girls uniform wasn't what would be considered particularly cute, I still would have liked the chance to wear it.

Try it on a non-threatening occasion, e.g., Halloween, and see how it fits. We encourage folks to try out LG Camp if they are interested and see if it is what floats their boat. Some come and find the sweetness and innocence to be precisely what they are seeking; others don't. At least two people left midway through their respective weekends after deciding it wasn't for them and that they were out of place. As others have written above, CDers are like snowflakes, all different.

[Robin Leigh]

One of the characteristics shown by girls I admired while growing up was a fascination with language and their desire to speak both correctly and with thought. The adults I was exposed to were duplicitous and evasive. An intellectually precocious 10-year old girl of the late 1950s is my model and, to her, expressing oneself clearly was paramount. How better to describe the beauty of a doll or her outfit than to use proper English and the correct terms? How can you have a tea party without knowing which fork or spoon to use? How would you greet the Queen?

That's a beautiful story, Taffy. And I think your imprinting theory is very plausible. I believe we are born with varied TG propensities, but they also manifest in a variety of ways depending on our general gender environment and can easily be shaped by key people & events in our lives.

I'm not sure what age I was when my CD imprinting occurred, but I suspect it may have been before I could form full sentences. My CD side certainly contains elements that I identify as coming from my mother when she was still quite young.

Some LGs, perhaps because they came to recognize who they were only after going through the sissy or AB (adult baby) community, speak in toddler talk. I came to recognize who I was relatively late in life, with no prior exposure to these communities. Additionally, a number of LGs attempt to separate their personality into two sides, the male which they refer to as "Daddy" or "Big Brother" and their female side which they refer to by name. I believe this is fundamentally unhealthy and have said so often, much to the consternation of some LGs. Integrating both aspects of one's personality into a coherent whole leads to a richer and more fulfilling life, or at least it has in mine...

I agree that integration is ideal, but it doesn't hurt to have ways to conveniently refer to these two facets of one's personality. It does hurt if it interferes with the process of honestly accepting our TG nature as intrinsic.



Robin

[MarinaTwelve200]

As a scientist you may be dissappointed to find that CDs are like snow flakes. No two are exactly alike. There are no simple cut and dried answers.

I never expected there to be simple answers.---besides, even the study of snowflakes is interesting. There are certian factors they all have in common that lead to the different shapes. (like 60 degree angles for example)

Indeed I tend to see most non-scientist CD types do the most generalizing. perhaps limiting the reasons and drives active in CD to their own experiences. I am sort of like an entomoligist (studier of bugs), I look for different KINDS of CDs like different "species". And see how they function.

I dont think there is only ONE type of CD and I dont think that EVERY CD (personality not withsanding) is different. but rather there are MANY types of CDers, each type with different motives and drives, yet each type having a similar "consistancy". that may allow for a system of classification.

This may seem "cold" and "insensitive: to some, but we do it all the time We DO lable ourselves CD , TS and TG already dont we? and are not those classifications important to us?

I think it would be great if we could further subdivide CDing---as that would allow understanding of our own personal conditions and not be misled and confused by the feelings of others who have different driving forces. If you know that you may be a certian TYPE of CD, then you can better serve your own CD 'NEEDS", get a better handle on things and accept who you are.----And accept and respect the differences in others. Living in an uncertan and confused state is little fun for most of us.

[Bridget]

1. The thing is, some of these gay people are drag queens, they do it for sociopolitical reasons I do not completely understand. Other people are unable to deal with their homosexuality, so they need to assume a socially responsible role in order to express it. Others identify as transgender, and feel like heterosexual women. Others perhaps are gay, but just have a fetish for some articles of women's clothing?

2. Ah, lolikon. Well it really depends. This can be related to an infantilist fantasy, (you know, people with adult-baby and diaper fetish) where the helplessness and loving care given to a baby is sexualized. Or it can be simply related to young girls in puberty being seen as attractive, because they are biologically in their sexual prime (long ago before consent age laws, it wasn't uncommon for arranged marriages to involve young teenagers). Also the innocence, and pure girliness may be what is important to certain CDs. Loligoth fashion, for example, takes the frilly girly dresses, puts a goth spin on it.

3. If you put on too much makeup you look out of place. You don't wear a prom dress to the supermarket; likewise you wouldn't put on prom makeup to the supermarket. (But if you do, more power to you.)

[Bridget]

Indeed I tend to see most non-scientist CD types do the most generalizing. perhaps limiting the reasons and drives active in CD to their own experiences. I am sort of like an entomoligist (studier of bugs), I look for different KINDS of CDs like different "species". And see how they function.

You mean "entomologist"? Bug refers to specific insects within the group Hemiptera and Homoptera, which include sucking insects, like begbugs, aphids, scale insects, mealybugs, leafhoppers and the like.

(Just a friendly note from your local crossdressing entomologist)

[Melinda Lou]

This is bringing up an old thread, I know, but I found the topic interesting. I don't really have much of an opinion on question #1. I think there are many more straight CDs than gay--how many posts here have to do with telling one's wife? I wonder if gay CDs have an easier time of it, if for no other reason than they are often marginalized as gay men to begin with, and dealing with the stress of being marginalized as CDs (unfortunately) may be old hat, so to speak. I know, I'm being presumptuous.

As for #2, I am one of those who has LG panties in his stash. They are the real thing; they came from the girls' department at Sears, they fit me (they are Girls' Plus size) and I wore a pair with little butterflies on them to work under my clothes just yesterday. I don't know what that says about me, but as someone alluded to in another post, I have also dabbled in infantilism, though it is not my main interest. Maybe that makes me more of a fetishist. I am not trying to pass as an LG, so you won't see me in an oversized smocked dress (though I have no problem with the serious adult LG's). I just like to wear my little girl panties 'cause they're cute and they remind me of what I wore when I was younger and just starting with my cousin's panties.

As for makeup, I've never bothered--I am the tomboy type, and I want to keep it simple. (And I'm a little lazy.)

[btmgrl6]

I am in the same boat as Mj.. i am a girl,just born with the wrong plumbing but,not for long. I to am still a bit mystified by srt8 cd'ers . Curiouser and curiouser....Don't get me wrong,I don't see anything wrong with it.I just don't fully understand it. For that matter I don't really fully understand me.
As for the little girl thing, as long as there are no actual childern involved..knock yourself out! As for those who are looking for someone that dresses as a child.....they creep me out. ewwwwwwwwwww.
As for make-up. I don't always wear it. i am in femme 24/7 and I m not always up for putting on a pretty face....If I am going out on a date, or to a retaurant,it's a different story, but there are times that even then I go sans war paint
I think I am past the fantasy thing..Don't feel the need to dress to the nines every time I go out.Throw on a pair of jeans, a tee-shirt maybe even a bra,pull back my hair and out the door i go.. I am living my life as a girl and I imagine that they feel the same in regards to make-up and such...who cares?if you don't like the way I look...don't look.

Steph

[btmgrl6]

It's much easier for me, because i am out, I don't have anyone to answer to,and I am now comfortable with Steph. I don't how it would be for other gays..because they actually have two strikes against them, being gay, and being a crossdresser.It;s not like well they're gay already..so what difference would they're being a crossdresser make.It sort of seems like that is what you are asking.

Steph

[amanda barber]

I wonder if gay CDs have an easier time of it, if for no other reason than they are often marginalized as gay men to begin with, and dealing with the stress of being marginalized as CDs (unfortunately) may be old hat, so to speak. I know, I'm being presumptuous.

Theres not much marginalization of gay CD's from the gay community. Most of it come from from the straight community like the posts that state matter of factly what gay men want, "most gay CDs are just drag queens", "gays only want one night stands so why dress", "one is allways butch/bitch" or what their token gay friend ("I have a gay friend", "I know a gay") may have said. Its also hard to stick to the mantra that crossdressers are all strait (the word most is used sometimes) when that pesky gay cd exists. There are also some VERY bigoted but respected CD groups like tri-ess that flat out exclude gay CD's and put it in their mission statement.

Many CD's are offended by gay CD's because "it makes my arguement that I'm straight more difficult". There was a several page thread on that.

There was a thread on gay rights and the second reply was about how someone was offended about people wanting "special privileges".

And many just can't deal with the fact that gender identity and sexual preference are seperate issues, actually applies to everyone. If that were accepted there wouldn't be countless posts and threads about why would gays be or want a CD, "they want "Manly Men" you know.".

[Colleentg]

I can't offer too much on this other than my what my psychologist told me and if I can forward it correctly. All I know is most CDs are heterosexual. Most gay guys would rather have a gay GUY than a guy in a dress. Now, the 'little girl' complex? Yes, I'm one who loves to dress younger, not because of any perverted reason. I don't dress that way going out, much less on Halloween. It's something that my doctor told me that I'm trying to live out, something I missed during childhood which could be very connected to the lack of parental love and guidance. My parents never said, used or showed "love", it was a rather taboo word as I grew up. They used all other four letter words instead. My mother nearly fainted one day, when I was 22, when I told her straight out, that I loved her! That was the past, and I'm doing my best to move on.

[MsJanessa]

To address your points.

1. Why do a lotta GAY people seem to be into CDing? This is not the case. The vast majority of men who cd are straight and married or in long term relationships.

2. CDing like "Little girls".? I have yet to meet a or talk with a cd who likes to dress as a little girl. I would find this quite disturbing if they did.

3. CDing without makeup? Woman do not always wear makeup.

Actually I would say the majority on this site are straight(although not the VAST majority) many of Us who post here are gay or bi-- According to the poll I just read in another thread 35% of Us or either gay or bi and an additional 2% of Us are pansexual(whatever that means)-and both the question and the answer seem to suggest that there is something wrong with that---am I being overly sensitive? If so just let me know.

[Kali]

One point that has been made clear to me is that many gay drag queens are not crossdressers as we see it, they are performers. I know about a half-dozen who compete in things like the "Ms Gay PA" events and I've never seen them dressed outside of an event venue; just when performing or rehearsing for a show. And I've spent way too much time in bars with them

[jayseedee]

Interesting topic about the mysteries. What makes me wonder is the variety of crossdressing among CDs. There are those for whom CDing happens in phases or cycles and they're fine the rest of the time going without; there are the full-timers whether all the way or full-time underdressed and otherwise fully dressed when they have the opportunity; there are the catalogers who keep a complete count of each type of clothing they own, and the collectors who concentrate on a specific item as a fetish; for some, wearing the clothes is enough while others have to achieve the complete look; many prefer to remain behind closed doors while others want to be public; and of course some are in it for the psyche while others concentrate on the libido. And all of that just has to do with crossdressers regardless of sexual orientation, and doesn't include other TG people like transsexuals or performance female impersonators.

For the mysteries you brought up, Marina Twelve, I speculate like this. Gay "bottoms" might want to dress to more approximate the traditional female role, and of course while most CDers are heterosexual, there's a proportion of gays who are into it, too, as it's not directly related to sexual orientation. A lot of gays grew up being labeled effeminate and being called sissies, and in adulthood they get to spread those wings and claim their femininity.

"Little girls" and other "adult sissies" have chosen or are driven (likely some of each) to focus on a particular period of life, which could relate to a time of feeling secure or to attributing security to an age and style of dress, or it could be complex in other ways. To the best of my knowledge and relief, these "specialists" are into being childlike, not being predatory toward children.

Makeup's the easy one. Some are into dressing, not appearing. Others want to be as natural as they can be, and view makeup as masking, and won't wear wigs either. And plenty have restrictions of time or other circumstance that doesn't give them the leisure or opportunity to apply makeup.

A breath of fresh air at last!