Why tons of M-to-F's and so few F-to-Ms?

[RobertaFermina]

In the middle of my New Years Eve Social at church, I changed from Guy to Girl mode.

The women all were curious, and tolerant, and many were enthusiastic.

To a man, the guys looked at me :yikes: "moon faced", and said NOTHING.

And this is at a church that is LBGT Welcoming.

If I had walked in the door and joind the church as a TransGender person, they would not bat an eyelash. But when a leader of the church suddenly shows up that way - WOOOOOAAAAHH!

Based on my experience - Women are curious and supportive, even Flattered.
Men are confused, and threatened, and possibly dismissive with respect to someone they know who Crosses Over.

MTFs NEED support from intentionally formed CD communities/groups because men's social and professional heirarchies discourage them from supporting and tolerating CDs.

I believe that wherever I am on the CD spectrum, from occasional, to full-time, I need the support of a community like this.

MTF's can tell me your experience. Do occasional MTF's NEED a support community? Can they survive and thrive without seeking support groups? Is there an occasional FTMer among you with an opinion?


Roberta

[marie354]

Quote:
Originally Posted by marie354
No offense, but... Why would anyone want to be a man. Jeans & T-shirt, suit & tie. The only colorful things for a man are ties, tees, and boxers. And the shoes....... Black or brown. How drab indeed. I need colorful clothes.
Quote:
Posted by Capt. Lex
I could explain to you why someone would want to be a man, but that might take all night - how much time you got? BTW, I have colorful male clothes and a suit & tie has the same effect on me that frilly stuff has on some of you girls.

I do know there is a lot more to it. I've been hiding as a man all of my life with all of the imposed responsibilities that people place on us. I didn't really want it, but accepted it as being part of me. Men do, sad to say, make a hell-of-a-lot more money than women in the same profession in most instances. Although men will never have a ''period'', I can understand how being a man does have it's benefits in a lot of other ways as well.
I wish you well, and I am glad that you are who you want to be. It's nice to be free.

[CaptLex]

MTFs NEED support from intentionally formed CD communities/groups because men's social and professional heirarchies discourage them from supporting and tolerating CDs.

We all need support, Roberta.

[helenr]

I agree with the comments offered by other gurls, just want to add a thought or two. Customs so change-I was reading a book my wife was discarding-'Dress for Success for women' and being wound that way that I am, I looked up pantyhose and that lead to a brief section that women in a business setting must always wear dresses or skirts-not wear slacks and be a 'make believe man' or words to this effect. That was about 1970 writing. Now, as we know, GGs only wear dresses and sheer hose for weddings, funerals, maybe church for a special occasion. It seems to make it harder, ironically, for we transvestites who favor dresses, of course, but to blend in it is so hard to wear them. Ironic. we can't even wear what we are drawn to unless in a transgendered setting--a cute movie I saw -think it was 'Just like a woman'-at a party in London a GG said to another GG-that you could tell the TVs as they were the ones wearing dresses! best, helen

[RobertaFermina]

I agree Captain. We're all here, aren't we?

And, I'm about those present, and those not present.

I'm conjecturing that a large population of FTM's (not present) have enough support and tolerance from women and society in-general to remain well connected in life - "not isolated".

If my suggestion is not correct, then I abandon my brainstorm to drift away and become a topical depression.

Roberta

[RobertaFermina]

If there are way more FTM's than we see in support groups, and they are feeling the need for support, then that is a lot of Joy and Self-Esteem that is NOT HAPPENING, and perhaps a lot of Misery that doesn't have to be so miserable.....

Sadly,

Roberta

[wifeofsissy GG]

I think that the reason has a lot to do with the fact that women for the most part already crossdress, even if they don't know it so it is kind of a non isssue, where as men it is a serious no no for us to dawn make up and walk the streets in a skirt. You watch in 50 years or so I bet there will be 2 people in the m to f and 0 in the f to m, just my

I wouldn't say that woman "crossdress" already! I think that crossdressing goes further than wearing "clothes". If you ask a CD/TV why they are wearing woman's clothing/makeup etc , I think there answer will be alot different than asking the woman's why they are wearing jeans instead of skirts. M-F crossdress cause of the way they feel inside, the desire/urge they have to feel/be like a woman. I'm a GG and I wear jeans. I don't get up in the morning and say, today I'm wearing Jeans cause I feel like being a man. I don't know why there isn't as many F-M as M-F!! Maybe cause women rules!! LOL. Just kidding.

[Marla S]

I wouldn't say that woman "crossdress" already! I think that crossdressing goes further than wearing "clothes". If you ask a CD/TV why they are wearing woman's clothing/makeup etc , I think there answer will be alot different than asking the woman's why they are wearing jeans instead of skirts.

Though I am not of the opinion that a woman wearing pants today is crossdressing, please consider that the different quality of answers might have something to do with the different social situations.
Stronger repression requires different and "stronger" answers for justification and self-justification.
(For the one it might be enough to say it is more comfortable to wear pants, for the other "I have to want to be a woman to be allowed to wear a skirt" might just be enough.)

[melissaK]

Hmmm. From "Transgender Emergence," Arlene Lev (2004) p. 13:

"Researchers and clinicians are beginnning to recognize areas of transgender expresion that had previously been underrecognized. Some examples include: the number of female to male transsexuals appear to be much higher than historically evident, including those who identify as gay males; . . . According to Cromwell (1999) female transgenderism is a complex phenomenon related to the historic invisibility of women's issues in general. [see pp. 72-74 for more in depth discussion]"

Lev goes on to set forth some of the same ideas already posted by some about f-t-m' shaving an easier time of cross dressing etc. than m-t-f's. But, I was married to a f-t-m and I'm not sure I buy that. It wasn't significantly easier for my ex- to deal with the internal feelings of wanting to be the opposite gender; but, she dealt with it better than I did and doesn't have to hang out on a board for support like I do. Is that a genetic sexually determined factor? Genetic females cope better? Well, I know better than to project my limited personal experiences on everyone.

Lev, at p. 38:

"According to the DSM IV-TR, approximately 1 per 30,000 adult physiological males and 1 per 100,000 adult physiological females seek SRS (Amer. Psych. Assoc., 2000, p. 579). . . . Statistics in the Netherlands, home of one of the most progressive gender clinics, are estimated to be approximately 1 per 12,000 males and 1 per 30,000 females (Bakker et al., 1993; Van Keternen, Gooren and Megens, 1996). . . . The accuracy or utility of these figures is open to debate, and it has been suggested that they represent figures a few decades old . . . " (And Lev has a VERY good discussion of numerous F-T-M roles in various socities world wide and through history, at pp. 57-67. Worth reading.)

But all that still begs the question of why more f-t-m's don't post. Too many rude insensitive m-t-f's? Reading the above posts I see some posts were pretty hard on anyone wanting to be a guy - hardly an accomodating attitude. They might well say the same thing about me wanting to be a woman. And even though I was married for 14 years to a wife who eventually came out as a f-t-m, I still can say insensitive things. So do the f-t-m's just find other boards without such a high m-t-f presence?

I for one am really really pleased these guys are here. Their two cents is often the most interesting point of view, and they are a breath of fresh air from some of the 100% m-t-f boards I have been on. If they weren't here, these boards would lack depth and richness.

Well that was a text booky boring post by me. But, Hugs anyway for those brave enough to grind through,

'lissa

[Jere Oneil]

Personally, I don't understand. I do understand that some females might want to be males, or just take on a male appearance. But hasn't the fashion changes over the last 50 or so years made it nearly inpossible for a female to crossdress. Today, women wear pants much more often that dresses or skirts. Even the male business suit and tie is becoming accepted as female business attire. Perhaps in a hundred or so years or so, gender clothing will totally reverse, and a FTM can put on a dress and be crossdrressing because dresses and skirts will be male attire.

[Robin Leigh]

There is another reason for the difference in numbers that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread. For many MTFs crossdressing is primarily an erotic activity (or at least it started that way). That doesn't seem to be the case with the FTMs.

Now I'm not saying that there are no erotic aspects to the FTM experience. Far from it! Just that they are doing this to express their gender identity, whether they be TS or not. Whereas there are plenty of MTFs that identify as males and don't ever think of themselves as females.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are plenty of FTMs that identify as TG, but very few who would think of themselves as fetishistic transvestites.

I'd love to hear what the FTM blokes have to say about these ideas.



Robin

[Samantha B L]

I'm an M to F myself,but I think that it's possible that there's more F to M's out there than it would seem presently.Eventually there will be a time when this will be more noticable on sites like Crossdressers.Sooner or later.It does seem as if there is a slightly larger number of M to F's,but the F to M's will be more numerous and noticable in time.

[Satrana]

I'm a GG and I wear jeans. I don't get up in the morning and say, today I'm wearing Jeans cause I feel like being a man.

If we lived in a world where men wearing skirts was completely normal, if I got up and decided to wear a skirt today, I would not have to think about it either. I would just do it because I felt like it. I would not need to reason to myself that I wanted to feel like a woman.

If you lived 50 years ago you would not have the social freedom to wear jeans thus you would have to give the idea of putting on jeans some serious thought and would need a justification to break the social taboo.

You don't see what you do as crossdressing because of this different context which means you have never had to think about why you wanted to wear jeans and not a skirt. You just do as you feel.

This is true for all of us who simply enact large numbers of behaviors because we have learned this is normal and acceptable. For example why do we feel it is normal to shake hands when meeting others and not bow like the Japanese or rub noses like Eskimos etc. We all blindly follow our social norms without wondering why we do the things we do. Only when we want to do something that is contrary to our social norms do we stop to think and seek justifications.

Crossdressers do not want to be actual women (excluding transsexuals), however they need to feel like a woman in order to bypass the social taboos on men displaying any feminine attributes. It is an internal mental block. I feel incapable of expressing my feminine side as a man but can do so if I present as a woman. Crossdressing gives me "permission" to express femininity which is otherwise forbidden to me as a man.

[RobertaFermina]

[snip]
But all that still begs the question of why more f-t-m's don't post. Too many rude insensitive m-t-f's? Reading the above posts I see some posts were pretty hard on anyone wanting to be a guy - hardly an accomodating attitude. They might well say the same thing about me wanting to be a woman. And even though I was married for 14 years to a wife who eventually came out as a f-t-m, I still can say insensitive things. So do the f-t-m's just find other boards without such a high m-t-f presence?
[snip]
'lissa

This reminds me of my Food Addiction 12-step program. The overwhelming majority of members are overeaters who (want to ) return to a lower, healthy (BMI) weight in the course of obtaining sobriety.

The tendency is for me (an overeatar) and others to take for granted that the audience is filled with overeaters. We speak to our desire to "eat less", and "not eat" when emotionally challenged.

This can be dismissive of anorexics, and sugar-addicts in the audience. Some of them may not feel like they are in the right place, or like they belong, and may drift away.

This is in spite of the fact that our literature is inclusive of all people with any "craziness" around food (over/under eater, sugar addicts, bulimics, etc.)

Could something like this be happening here?

Roberta

[Delila]

From everything that I have read statistically there really are more m2f then f2m cders. I think that one of the reasons for this which has already been stated is that women wear mens clothes all of the time so it seems fewer of them are true crossdressers. Additionally you hear from more male to female cders because society is so much less accepting of us so we need so much more support. Then there is always the popular opinion of "why would anyone want to be male when being female is so much more glamorous and sexy." I'm sure that I am wrong on this point but I do know that if you read any studies there are many many fewer m2f then f2m.

[Tanya83]

Because girls get to wear nicer shoes! And pantyhose

[Satrana]

I think that one of the reasons for this which has already been stated is that women wear mens clothes all of the time so it seems fewer of them are true crossdressers.

Ahhh...but define what a true crossdresser is. I can think of a dozen different reasons MTF crossdressers have expressed as their own individual reason for doing so. So there is no way to define what a crossdresser is except as a technical description of wearing the clothes of the opposite gender, which leads nowhere since all women wear masculine clothes these days.

This means it is up to the individual to decide whether he/she is a crossdresser which means they have to be able to identify themselves what they are doing. I am sure there are many FTM crossdressers who do not identify as such because it falls within today's acceptable standards for women even though from our viewpoint they display common signs of crossdressing.

[Tina Dixon]

You are very wise, Red!

I only got that way Cap by getting to know you guys and reading your forum at times.

[biggirlsarah]

Maybe it is because we are chemically altered females anyway , but I do agree that the choice of clothes shoe's etc is so much greater , and the female has a much greater level of self expression .

[CaptLex]

I'm conjecturing that a large population of FTM's (not present) have enough support and tolerance from women and society in-general to remain well connected in life - "not isolated". If my suggestion is not correct, then I abandon my brainstorm to drift away and become a topical depression.

Unfortunately, there are many FtMs out there that are very isolated and don't have a clue where to turn for support. I know because I meet new ones all the time (in person and online) when they come to places like this one or to my support group and the first thing they say is, "I thought I was the only one like me". I can only imagine from the ones I do meet, how many more are out there that are still isolated.

If there are way more FTM's than we see in support groups, and they are feeling the need for support, then that is a lot of Joy and Self-Esteem that is NOT HAPPENING, and perhaps a lot of Misery that doesn't have to be so miserable.....

You said it.

Could something like this be happening here?

You hit the nail on the head, Roberta. It does happen here. Some people are so much into their own situation that they can't get their heads around the thought that some of us are in a different place, i.e.,we may want penises instead of breasts, we may like having facial hair, etc. We don't judge those who feel the opposite of what we do, and we ask for the same non-judgment in return.

But all that still begs the question of why more f-t-m's don't post. Too many rude insensitive m-t-f's? Reading the above posts I see some posts were pretty hard on anyone wanting to be a guy - hardly an accomodating attitude. They might well say the same thing about me wanting to be a woman. And even though I was married for 14 years to a wife who eventually came out as a f-t-m, I still can say insensitive things. So do the f-t-m's just find other boards without such a high m-t-f presence?

We really don't have much of a choice in this matter since there really aren't many places for us, otherwise I know some of the guys wouldn't be here at all. So we try to make this work, and we appreciate all of you that make us feel welcome and understand that we're really not that different from you.

As for the statistics you quoted, I have no doubt that they're not only outdated, but were probably not very accurate at the time these studies were done because of the amount of FtMs that were not (and are still not) out. It wasn't too long ago we were considered a myth and the "experts" didn't believe we existed at all. So, if a person born female begins to feel that something is different and tries to find someone to talk to about it only to be told that there is no such thing, how do you think that makes that person feel? Even now some info is completely wrong as I recently learned that in some parts of this country an FtM is not allowed to transition if he's attracted to men and not women.

I for one am really really pleased these guys are here. Their two cents is often the most interesting point of view, and they are a breath of fresh air from some of the 100% m-t-f boards I have been on. If they weren't here, these boards would lack depth and richness.

Awww . . . you're so sweet . . .

Additionally you hear from more male to female cders because society is so much less accepting of us so we need so much more support. Then there is always the popular opinion of "why would anyone want to be male when being female is so much more glamorous and sexy." I'm sure that I am wrong on this point but I do know that if you read any studies there are many many fewer m2f then f2m.

I don't think society is generally more accepting of us, I think it's that we blend into society (whether we want to or not) so they don't really notice us - not the same thing. Actually, this makes it harder for us to let people know we're here. As to the "popular opinion of why would anyone want to be male" . . . let me count the ways.

I only got that way Cap by getting to know you guys and reading your forum at times.

I wish everyone would come on over for at least a day and get to know us better - I think we would all benefit from it. Remember, the door is always open, just wipe your feet first.

[pocoyo]

Oooh this thread's picking up with some great stuff now! Liking it...

I'm conjecturing that a large population of FTM's (not present) have enough support and tolerance from women and society in-general to remain well connected in life - "not isolated".

I'm sad to say that actually, being FTM (as in the transexual/gender confused sort) is pretty difficult and it's really really hard to find support.
There are lots of mtf resources but not many ftm ones. When phoning a trans helpline for instance, I'm quite a novelty as they are so used to mtf's.

As for support from women & society... well if I'm anything to go by, a lot of FTM's just keep it a secret because they don't even know there's anyone else like them out there (although I did suspect there must be). I felt a little ashamed though (although inside I did know there was nothing bad about what I was doing). I knew that others would think I was strange and would not understand. And they didn't.

When dressing boyishly when a little younger (and didn't know about other transmen), I got called a lesbian (in a horrible way, and even though I am not one). And "weird" and "freak" and got bullied. Even pushed around by boys who were saying "lesbians are meant to be hard aren't they? Come on then... let's have a fight..." and sometimes I would fight and stick up for myself, because I am a boy, and because I am tough. Funnily enough I am about as far from a lesbian as you can get. I see myself as a gay man. At school I even got spat on.
I didn't have support from anyone for ages. Eventually I got a counsellor and he suggested I reach out to others like me, which is why I came here
That is cutting a long story short.
Please don't ever think that being (any sort of trangendered) FTM is easy. Because I promise you, it isn't.


.... perhaps it's not a case of why so few ftms compared to mtfs... it's just that most of the ftm's here are transexual, wheras a large proportion of the mtfs are crossdressers. Probably largely due to the previously stated fact that a man is "crossdressing" by wearing just one feminine garment, wheras a woman isn't deemed as crossdressing unless she is nearing transexual.) Especially as there are a lot of unisex clothes now which are largely more male-looking.

Maybe the real question is... why so many crossdressers and so few transexual?


Maybe it's not that FTMs and MTF's are so different... perhaps it's that crossdressers and transexual are different (although naturally they overlap). Perhaps we shouldn't be "divided" by our mtf/ftmness but by our particular transgender status.

But whatever, I think that all of us transgender folk (whether a mild crossdresser, a crossdresser, genderqueer, transexual etc etc, any one of the many things throughout that huge and amazing spectrum,) are comrades, and should be united by a respect for each other and people's individual transgenderism.

[CaptLex]

There is another reason for the difference in numbers that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread. For many MTFs crossdressing is primarily an erotic activity (or at least it started that way). That doesn't seem to be the case with the FTMs.

Now I'm not saying that there are no erotic aspects to the FTM experience. Far from it! Just that they are doing this to express their gender identity, whether they be TS or not. Whereas there are plenty of MTFs that identify as males and don't ever think of themselves as females.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are plenty of FTMs that identify as TG, but very few who would think of themselves as fetishistic transvestites.

I'd love to hear what the FTM blokes have to say about these ideas.



Robin

Oops, almost forgot I wanted to address this too . . .

You're absolutely right, Robin. There's a lot less of a sexual connection to crossdresing for FtMs than there is for MtFs (not that there's anything wrong with that). I won't say it doesn't exist at all, but I think it's very rare. It's almost always about gender identity and expression.

[Marla S]

@pocoyo and CaptLex
Enlightening posts. Can't coment on everything, but they definitively make me think, which might end up changing my view here and there (not the worst that can happen ).

Oops, almost forgot I wanted to address this too . . .

You're absolutely right, Robin. There's a lot less of a sexual connection to crossdresing for FtMs than there is for MtFs (not that there's anything wrong with that). I won't say it doesn't exist at all, but I think it's very rare. It's almost always about gender identity and expression.

Would be interesting to discuss this a bit more in detail, because a recent report on male and female sexuality made me think that this might not only be due to the hormones, but also due to the physical function.
But's probably not the right place here to do.

[CaptLex]

Would be interesting to discuss this a bit more in detail, because a recent report on male and female sexuality made me think that this might not only be due to the hormones, but also due to the physical function. But's probably not the right place here to do.

Start a new thread for it, Marla - and pray that people keep it clean so we can discuss it without it getting locked.

[Stacy GG]

I don't think society is generally more accepting of us, I think it's that we blend into society (whether we want to or not) so they don't really notice us - not the same thing. Actually, this makes it harder for us to let people know we're here.

Sorry to jump in so late on this thread but this comments sparked a few thoughts for me. I work with a couple lesbians at my work ( though I think one may really be a FTM). I think because they all dress down, ( don't wear makeup, hair is scraggely..etc) they are automatically thought of as lesbians, though I know the one girl talks about having a penis once in a while.
I think for her it might be easier to just accept being a 'lesbian' than being a FTM, because everyone is ok with that. It's much easier to be in a territory that everyone has accepted for a while, than to try and branch out and announce I'm a FTM. I may be wrong about that but it's just my