CDing more sexual for MTFs than for FTMs. ( FTM and GG opinions needed)

[Marla S]

Caution: This thread has something to do with genitalia, please keep it clean. (Mods, feel free to move it or close it).


For most of the MTFs the sexual aspect of CDing is or was a central one or at least very important one. Some enjoy it and don’t want to miss it, others (like me) suffered from it or at least became irritated by the interrelation of “feminine side” and a “typical male” sexual behaviour. This “contradiction” even forced the psychologist to extend the definition of sexual fetish, inventing the term “transvestic fetishism”.
Like CaptLex pointed out in another thread this almost automatic interrelation of sexual excitement and gender identification for MTFs seems to be a rare exception for FTMs.

Why is that ?
Usually it will be said: it’s the male hormones and males are more visual.
That is certainly true, but could there be another reason ? One that is caused simply anatomically?
By anatomically I mean the way male and female genitalia “behave”.
(This cause was discussed in a BBC documentation to explain male and female sexuality, but not focused on CDing or fetishism.).

Thesis:
(The part that I know a bit what I am talking about ):
By swelling male genitalia give an immediate feedback about sexual stimulation. It is inevitable to realize that immediately, not so much because the penis is so sensitive, but because of secondary effects: Pants become tight, it is touchable and visible.
(The part, I have to memorize from the documentation)
This immediate feedback seems not to be the case for females, because it happens inside the body and is not so easy to detect even for the women themselves. (I have been astonished to hear that a lot of women don’t seem to even know what really happens or should happen).

Question:

Could the pronunciation of sexual aspect of CDing for the MTFs to a good part be a caused by a simple (self-)conditioning due to the "explicit behavior" of their genitalia?

You wear a woman’s item, someday you get an erection, feel the “tightness”, grab there, … well you know the end. Next time you maybe dress in order to get an erection.
This could easily become a self-enforcing “vicious circle” (fetishistic behaviour) which is harder to enter for women due to their anatomy ?

Nonsense or a possible explanation ?

[Alice Torn]

Marla, I agree. We are wired differently, plumbing works by different stimulatants. I wish we males were not so awfully led by sight!! It makes us so much more prone, to lusting after MANY images. Lucille

[Ranee Daze]

Sometimes I wonder if I have just provided the perfect girlfriend for myself. Ranee loves my humour, doesn't complain when I'm late from work, loves my clothes and never complains when I fart in the kitchen!

Seriously, I think it does have something to do with the way we have eveolved socially as a species. In almost every other species it is the male with the longer, lovelier mane, crest, feathers, tusks...etc. Socially and fashionwise we took a big left turn at the end of the eighteenth century wrt fashion, deportment etc. and are only now getting back to the natural way for males to be....as beautiful as possible!

[CaptLex]

This could easily become a self-enforcing “vicious circle” (fetishistic behaviour) which is harder to enter for women due to their anatomy? Nonsense or a possible explanation?

Actually, I think that makes a lot of sense, and had never thought about it that way. I guess I always just thought of it as a mental difference, not one based on physical differences too. Kind of reminds me of Pavlov's dogs in a way - they heard the whistle and learned to associate that with food. Maybe MtFs see one (or more) certain item of clothing and learn to associate it with sex. At least this is my take on it.

[Kate Simmons]

Quite possibly Marla. In my sexual "heyday"(ages 28-38) with an intense amount of pressures to be a husband, father and provider I found that my motivation to CD was driven by all of those pressures. I was seeking relief from being a "man" and I knew it. As strange as it may sound, I had to become a "woman" in order to continue to fulfill my functions as a "man". Those needs have long since faded however and now it seems to be more of an identity thing and getting in touch with who I am. I am no longer socially "stigmatized" to look or act in a certain way and am free to express the real person within myself. To limit myself in that way was an injustice to myself and I'm now not only able to embrace self acceptance but the acceptance of others for who they are as well.

[Victoria Anne]

I would have to agree and add to that there is also a physcologicalaspect to it as well as a physical. Our bodies are created differently and so to our minds,our very functions if you will so I must stand on a combination of the two as for reasons of the sexual excitment differences between male and the female of the species,the human animal.

[melissaK]

At first I liked the theorum. But, why don't all males fall prey to this? Lots of guys have had some hot date's silky slip or nylon panties lead them home so to speak, without it delivering them into a life of cding.

What I like about your theorum is that its searching for some link between sex and cding. Sex is all about hormones. Exactly what happens with all those hormones is not yet fully understood - but it's mighty complicated: http://www.reuniting.info/science/re...exual_hangover

And, if masturbation floods the brain with "pleasure center" chemicals, and you masturbate with silky womens underwear, then yeah I guess you could mentally develop that link - a fetish.

But, for a lot of us, its waaay more complicated. It reminds me that in one of Anne Vitale's papers reports the mtf masturbation is also a form of temporary relief from the anxiety of no cding. http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm ("The only other form of temporary relief came through masturbating, often up to five times a day.") She didn't explain exactly how that "relief" chemistry worked.

In another paper Vitale has other insights/opinions about this complex interrelationship of cding, sex and hormones and I probably shouldn't try to paraphrase her. So, if you've the time, start here: http://www.avitale.com/hbigdatalkplus2005.htm.

OK, let me exerpt one sentence of hers:

"The exogenous administration of cross sex hormones has shown repeatedly to have a profound, almost immediate stabilizing effect on the gender variant individual’s psyche. The medication appears to resolve a hormonal imbalance in the brain that the individual’s endocrine system cannot otherwise provide."

So, what was the question? Did I answer it? Was I even in the ball park? Geesh I get so blonde some times . . .

Hugs,
'lissa

[Tree GG]

... Kind of reminds me of Pavlov's dogs in a way - they heard the whistle and learned to associate that with food. Maybe MtFs see one (or more) certain item of clothing and learn to associate it with sex. At least this is my take on it.

I thought of Pavlov right away, as well. As a young man enters adolescence, all the advertising & pictures he's seen start to be stimulating. He likes the physical sensations so seeks out the visual stimuli again.

I suppose a man who crossdresses would then appear to have a strong tactile sense as well as visual since so many crave the "feel" of women's clothing initially.

Something to consider.....

[Marla S]

Thanks for your replys so far, Ladies and Gents.
Good to know that this thought might not be all that stupid.

But, for a lot of us, its waaay more complicated. It reminds me that in one of Anne Vitale's papers reports the mtf masturbation is also a form of temporary relief from the anxiety of no cding. http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm ("The only other form of temporary relief came through masturbating, often up to five times a day.") She didn't explain exactly how that "relief" chemistry worked.

Of course it is more complicated, but the case you quote wouldn't contradict "my theorem". Here again you don't need chemistry to explain the relief (I feel ab bit sorry about this as a chemist )
Once you've linked CDing and sexual activity it's kinda easy to understand what the relief might be. The mentioned CD just made a virtue of necessity in his situation - the post-orgasmic hangover. (your first link)

Other than intrusive and repeated fantasies of being female, he had refused to allow himself any overt form of female gender expression. He reported feeling that if he was to cross-dress and be caught, he would dishonor his wife and family. Having attained international recognition for his work, he was also concerned about his professional reputation. The only other form of temporary relief came through masturbating, often up to five times a day.

A CD being concerned about his family and reputation trys to avoid active dressing by taking advantage of virtual-CDing and the post-orgasmic hangover, the latter usually producing shame and guilt feelings for a CD (becoming "normal" according to the gender standards).

Fantasizing being female allows him not to dress for a short time (which is not exactly an anxiety of no CDing).
He uses that time to masturbate.
The post-orgasmic hangover reduces sexual "appetite", hence it reduces the "appetite" for CDing if it is linked directly to sexual activity.

Indeed he maybe pushes the conditioning even a step further in taking double advantage (sexual pleasure and fear relief, due to becoming "normal" because of the post-orgasmic hangover).

Personally I have related experiences with the opposite intention.
During adolescence I actually forced myself to dress sometimes despite and because of the post-orgasmic hangover, in order to figure out how sexual my dressing actually is.
Not so sexual as I initially thought.

[melissaK]

I'm turning a bit blond with all this reasoning. I re-read this thread, and your recent post and I think I follow, and agree a lot.

But, am I right that some of what you are describing is a cyclical behavior/reasoning pattern? MTF's masterbate in womens clothes to obtain the post orgasm period where they have no, or at least reduced, mtf or cding urges, and thus they feel better about themselves (vis a vie, they fit the expected social gm role) and they can deny the mtf feelings?

And as with all cyclical reasoning there must be a fallacious premise in there somewhere? Would the fallacy be that the easy orgasm of the mtf which serves as an escape route from mtf desires is real relief? Is that the fallacy of the fetishistic CDer category? That deep down if you are motivated to cross dress, you probably are mtf. (OK, that's heading off thread, so don't got there everyone).

And your last paragraph is your own experiment to prove that the relief isn't real, and that the Cding isn't about the orgasm -

<<<Personally I have related experiences with the opposite intention.
During adolescence I actually forced myself to dress sometimes despite and because of the post-orgasmic hangover, in order to figure out how sexual my dressing actually is.
Not so sexual as I initially thought.>>>

I think my personal experience tracks with yours. I have done the same thing - dressed anyway after orgasmically induced relief. And my conclusion is similar to yours. I have also pondered that my orgasmically induced relief was used by me to give me a window of opportunity to get on with performing a gm type task that I didn't want to do - somedays that gm task was simply donning my gm attire and going to work in a testosterone ladden world. This may be what Ericka was saying about her efforts at getting through life as a gm at ages 28-38.

So I think all this does relate back to your original thesis that the sexual component difference between mtf and ftm cross dressing has a relationship to gm vs gg plumbing. The easy O's of gm plumbing serve to side track mtf's into a fetishistic like behavior. Is that a fair statement of the reasoning so far? Or have I slipped hopelessly into blondness?

I suppose some more input from a FTM guy would help.

[CaptLex]

So I think all this does relate back to your original thesis that the sexual component difference between mtf and ftm cross dressing has a relationship to gm vs gg plumbing. The easy O's of gm plumbing serve to side track mtf's into a fetishistic like behavior. Is that a fair statement of the reasoning so far? Or have I slipped hopelessly into blondness?

I suppose some more input from a FTM guy would help.

I'm happy to chime in where I might be able to add to the discussion, but please remember that I'm speaking for myself and don't want to represent all FtMs in this type of discussion.

In my situation, I would say (since I still have the original plumbing) that it's not really about the "gm vs gg plumbing", but about the stuff that flows through those pipes - in other words, the hormones. Since I started on T eight months ago my body has started changing, but my mind has changed a lot more. Actually, I don't know how much of the sex drive is in the mind and how much of it is physical (probably some of both), but I say "my mind" because of the sexual thoughts that emanate from there now. So things that I previously considered just interests are now securely in fetish territory.

So that's my theory (yet to be tested) - I think it's the hormones more than the "wobbly bits" that make the difference between GMs and GGs and, more specifically, the reason why there are many fetishistic male crossdressers but you never really hear about fetishistic female crossdressers. Me, I'm stuck in the middle somewhere learning to swim with the tide.

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

from certain things i have read/seen, c/d sometimes like their SO's to dress as well when in a "intamate" situation !! for a c/d to get sexual feelings of womens clothes next to them, is something i get alittle confused about to be honest !! yet yes i suppse when us GGs dress in something we feel "sexy" in, in a way its the same for the c/d to get that "feeling" themselves .
what your brain tells you, and "other" feelings tell you that stimulate your urges , when the chemistry is right !! well......need i say more !!

[TV Wannabe]

I totally agree with what you girls are saying, my experience began with masturbation, but has recently moved away from the sexual aspects. Im starting to accept that CDing is a part of who I am.

[TVStevie]

I thought of Pavlov right away, as well. As a young man enters adolescence, all the advertising & pictures he's seen start to be stimulating. He likes the physical sensations so seeks out the visual stimuli again.

I suppose a man who crossdresses would then appear to have a strong tactile sense as well as visual since so many crave the "feel" of women's clothing initially.

Something to consider.....

It is conditioning, but I think it's operant conditioning, not classical conditioning - at least in my experience. The very first time that I dressed (when I was veeeeeery young) I found it erotic, and thus the cycle began. Wear the clothes, enjoy the sensations. It wasn't a coincidence in the traditional Pavlovian "conditioned response" way - I found, by accident, that lingerie felt amazing next to my skin (and particularly my genitalia - the first erection that I ever got occurred as a result of the tactile sensation from some silky panties), so IMO it's more about positive reinforcement than an unrelated conditioned stimulus - more Skinnerian than Pavlovian.

[Robin Leigh]

I don't think that there is really a big puzzle why there are differences between male & female TGs. Male & female are complementary, but they are by no means mirror images of each other. We are culturally & socially conditioned to perceive them as symmetrical opposites, but that isn't really true.

To explain the differences in the number of MTF & FTM TGs, I think the differences in the physiology & functioning of the genitalia is important, but the hormonal differences are probably more important.

Firstly, a GM embryo has a greater chance of being affected by his mother's estrogen than a GG embryo has of being affected by her mother's testosterone.

Most TS people whether GM or GG usually have feelings of identifying with the opposite gender from a very early age. Some have always felt that way, most seem to realize it by the time they are 6, give or take a year (even if they repress these feelings).

Most non-TS MTF CDers may have a few early femme feelings, but most don't start till adolescence, when the hormones start to kick in (or even later). What about non-TS FTM CDers? They do not appear to exist, and this causes the main difference in the number of MTF & FTM TGs. Why don't they exist? I believe the main reason is the effect that testosterone has on the libido and the sexualization of the mental processes.

If a young GG with mild TG propensities got hold of some T, crossdressed and got "erotic", I expect that she would soon get into the same conditioning pattern that many MTFs do. Natural T levels would not normally be sufficient for this to occur (unless there was something seriously intersex going on).

What other reasons are there, apart from T?

I don't think the genital geometry matters that much, although I'm sure that the dissonance between wearing female clothes with an obviously erect penis is one factor for MTFs that the FTMs don't have to deal with. Sure, they have breasts they'd like to ignore, but it's not quite the same!

I have more to say on this, in relation to male ejaculation & female multiple orgasm capability, as well as the fact that girls can have orgasms well before puberty & boys can't. All these things have a bearing on the differences of sexual consciousness between all GMs & GGs, not just those of us with TG propensities.

Robin

[Marla S]

But, am I right that some of what you are describing is a cyclical behavior/reasoning pattern? MTF's masterbate in womens clothes to obtain the post orgasm period where they have no, or at least reduced, mtf or cding urges, and thus they feel better about themselves (vis a vie, they fit the expected social gm role) and they can deny the mtf feelings?

No, that's certainly is not the driving force IMO, the driving force is to have sexual pleasure and a good time. The post orgasmic period is usually just an "unrequested byproduct". You don't think of it usally beforehand. Otherwise a CDs probably wouldn't masturbate at all, because the post orgasmic period is usually accompanied with intense guilt and shame feelings (at least for me as adolescent), but at least feeling a bit silly. The very frist thing you usually do (I did) is to get rid of the clothes as fast as possible.

But once you have understood the effects of this period, namely the diminishing urge for further sexual activities (and here dressing), as a CD you add 1 and 1 together and have tool to avoid dressing, despite the urge.
Masturbation + effect postorgasmic period is here, in this particular case, utilized in a strategic, "non-erotic" way.
An analogy: You can use a knife to cut delicious fruits in order to eat them, but you can use a knife also to kill someone. Usually a CD wants the fruits (orgasm), this particular CD wants to kill his urge (post orgasm).

And as with all cyclical reasoning there must be a fallacious premise in there somewhere? Would the fallacy be that the easy orgasm of the mtf which serves as an escape route from mtf desires is real relief?

Premise: A CD usually doesn't search for an escape route by sexual activity (A usual ecape route would be to try to prove his masculinity by some very masculine activities and/or purging)
It is not the question how easy it is to get an orgasm. It's rather the question if a man is more easy seduced to produce an orgasm due to his anatomy.
Let my try it with an example.
You got a new skirt, maybe your first one, and want to dress. You decide to bend your penis between the legs in order to make the skirt fit better.
Now it is likely, despite other intentions, that you get an erection and will get problems with bending the penis between your legs.
In other words your penis tells you that something erotic is happening, while your brain tells you you want to try on your new skirt. Both doesn't go together.
Now you have three options
1.) You skip posing in your new skirt and believe your little friend.
2.) You try to think of anything completaly different and try to tuck later.
3.) You take a cold shower and try to tuck later.
I think it is not unlikely that you follow the first option, despite an other intention.

Technically something similar can't happen (???) for FTMs (new suit + stuffing the boxers) and it seems more likely that the intention part wins over the sexual (It's the question, if this is a true assumption).
Hence, the link between the suit and sexual activity is less likely to happen than the link between the skirt and sexual activity.(????)

[Marla S]

I'm happy to chime in where I might be able to add to the discussion, but please remember that I'm speaking for myself and don't want to represent all FtMs in this type of discussion.

I am happy you chime in. I've read about your experience already in your diary thread and hoped you will share your respective experiences here too.

Actually, I don't know how much of the sex drive is in the mind and how much of it is physical (probably some of both), but I say "my mind" because of the sexual thoughts that emanate from there now. So things that I previously considered just interests are now securely in fetish territory.

This is a most interesting first-hand info, and if it would have needed a proof for the influence of the hormones, here it is.
Question is, if the other reason is a reason and how much influence it has.

[Marla S]

Thanks for your reply, wickedblonde !

from certain things i have read/seen, c/d sometimes like their SO's to dress as well when in a "intamate" situation !! for a c/d to get sexual feelings of womens clothes next to them, is something i get alittle confused about to be honest !!

It is confusing not only for you. But a MTF-CD is a man finally having a large excess of testosterone over estrogene. So it's kind of like two hearts beating in one chest - feeling attracted and feeling attractive by the same. But maybe it has also something to do with insecurity. If both do the same the one can't be wrong.

yet yes i suppse when us GGs dress in something we feel "sexy" in, in a way its the same for the c/d to get that "feeling" themselves .

At least we feel and think it is a similar feeling, maybe a bit confused by the male part . But it is definitively a different feeling than a pure male role.

[Christina Nicole]

I shall posit that the thesis rests on a bad assumption. I cannot say that cross dressing is or is not sexual for all cross dressers. However, it is not and has not been sexual for me. I started cross dressing when I was about 6 or 7 years old. Nothing was sexual at that time. I do tend more towards being a woman, that is a transsexual than simply a cross dresser, unlike most of the guys here. I do not know if that weighs into the equation.

I know a few other cross dressers, who may or may not be more transsexual than CD, but while hanging together some evenings they said CDing isn't sexual for them either. That conversation was prompted by one of those cross dressers who was on the prowl for other dressed up guys.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Marla S]

I don't think that there is really a big puzzle why there are differences between male & female TGs. Male & female are complementary, but they are by no means mirror images of each other. We are culturally & socially conditioned to perceive them as symmetrical opposites, but that isn't really true.

That certainly is true, but I have the impression that despite all real excisting differences, science discovers more and more similarities by lifting the social norm curtain.

To explain the differences in the number of MTF & FTM TGs, I think the differences in the physiology & functioning of the genitalia is important, but the hormonal differences are probably more important.

Probably, but in order to analyze a multiple factor system it's important to isolate the single factors first and then see how they play together. Usually you will find synergetic effects that make a statement about more or less important questionable.

Most TS people whether GM or GG usually have feelings of identifying with the opposite gender from a very early age. Some have always felt that way, most seem to realize it by the time they are 6, give or take a year (even if they repress these feelings).

Most non-TS MTF CDers may have a few early femme feelings, but most don't start till adolescence, when the hormones start to kick in (or even later).

I would see this as a gradual difference, which only becomes fundmental in it's effect. A CD wishes to become or be a girl/boy, the TS has the conviction to be a girl/boy, more or less pronounced through the whole spectrum.
Both are able to repress this feelings for a while the one more easy than the other. A "typical" TS might even feel repelled by his/her genitals. It seems less likely then to develop the respective sexuality, wheras a CD might wish (dream) to have other genitals but usually develops sex conform behavior.

What about non-TS FTM CDers? They do not appear to exist, and this causes the main difference in the number of MTF & FTM TGs. Why don't they exist? I believe the main reason is the effect that testosterone has on the libido and the sexualization of the mental processes.

Some posts by our FTMs in the other thread indicate they do exsist, but their advantage (having more dressing options, blending in) is their drawback at the same time (they are not taken serious as CD).
My put on testosterone here would be, besides social factors, that they are less prone to the emulate-the-opposite-gender-approach of CDing (just a guess).

If a young GG with mild TG propensities got hold of some T, crossdressed and got "erotic", I expect that she would soon get into the same conditioning pattern that many MTFs do. Natural T levels would not normally be sufficient for this to occur (unless there was something seriously intersex going on).

Would be interesting to know, but it shouldn't be tested.

[Marla S]

I shall posit that the thesis rests on a bad assumption. I cannot say that cross dressing is or is not sexual for all cross dressers. However, it is not and has not been sexual for me. I started cross dressing when I was about 6 or 7 years old. Nothing was sexual at that time. I do tend more towards being a woman, that is a transsexual than a simple cross dresser, unlike most of the guys here. I do not know if that weighs into the equation.

Now, the (my) assumption is that CDing or being TS doesn't have a sexual origin, but is gender-identity related in general.
But because gender related things necessarily have something to do with sexuality, the sexual aspect may or may not be set on top of the gender-identity origin (more likely for CDs than TSs, probably) and may even cover it to an extend that it seems to be the dominating factor. In particular for MTFs where a (partly) female gender-identity clashes with a male sexuality.
I myself can date back my first gender-identity episodes to the age of 4 or 5 (non-sexual), I had this clash of gender-identity and male sexuality (predominately while adolescence, but later too) and had some work to do to uncover the origin of my CDing again (didn't make me asexual, but I think it is a different sexuality since)
BTW: being a CD is not that simple. Maybe different but not simple. What is simple crossdresser anyway ?

[Christina Nicole]

What is simple crossdresser anyway ?

It's a bad edit. It should have been "simply a cross dresser." Oops. I had the word order wrong in the draft and instead of fixing the ordering when I did the edit, I changed simply to simple. Sorry.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[melissaK]

Phew. What a read! This thread has instilled a new level of blondness in me. Right now I'm thinkin my most BRILLIANT thought may be limited to going home and drinking Guiness from a bottle.

Seriously Marla, Captain, Robin, Christina, TV*, WickedBlond, and everyone else, I have enjoyed everyword so far. I think forums of written posts raise semantic limitations wherein one poorly worded sentence can throw each of us off a little from the others intended message, but I think we all have done pretty well with some complex reasoning. Someday it would be fun to chat in person about these esoteric matters - - - .

On to that Guiness . . .
Hugs
'lissa

[Marla S]

On to that Guiness . . .
Hugs
'lissa

Cheers

It's about time to have one or three ... or did I already had them ?

[Lilith Moon]

I'm sure that, for many of us MTFs, there is a predisposition before any sexual/fetishistic conditioning occurs. Many of us have an interest in dressing in clothes traditionally worn by the opposite sex long before we became sexually/erotically capable. For example, I was trying on my mothers stuff almost as soon as I could reach her lingerie drawer...I knew nothing of sex or sexuality, it just felt good.