An excellently reasoned argument...very well written.
But in matters as complicated and diverse as human behavior, I am always skeptical about finding THE REASON.
I just try not to worry about it....usually quite successfully.
I broadly agree with your theory
I broadly disagree
I have a much better theory. Let me explain...
An excellently reasoned argument...very well written.
But in matters as complicated and diverse as human behavior, I am always skeptical about finding THE REASON.
I just try not to worry about it....usually quite successfully.
There's a lot of truth in your theory
There's a lot of truth in your theory, AND, I think there's a lot more to it, too.
Being an introvert, much of my quiet/gentle/intellectual behavior was attributed to stereotypical characteristics of girls/women. I found that dressing up in private was a fantastic way to relax and recharge my energy, so being quiet and feminine, kinda complemented each other...
I WOULD like to know why I CD, ... but ONLY so I can enjoy it more!
Ava Mouse - An artist experimenting with the medium of femininity...
"Imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery."
Hi ChristineOriginally Posted by ChristineRenee
Helana,
Well...time now for me to schedule an appointment with yet another therapist again! I agree with you and yet your theory doesn't really explain my experience. I had a typical 1950's and 1960's upbringing. Totally male oriented. Sports, playing "war". Friends were all male and best buds. Didn't play with girls, or play with dolls, or play house, etc. No sisters with friends to "dress" me up and embarrass me and make me feel "girly." All my role models, grandfather, father, older brother, were manly and not femme in any way and chauvinistic as well. So..."Lucy...you got some s'plainin' to do!"
I'll go and call my 4th therapist now while awaiting your reply Helana.
*now...say thank you to Helana, Christine!*
THANKS HELANA!!!!!!!!
Did not mean to cause you any trouble!!
My upbringing was the same - a typical boy, no sisters, no feminine influences, played soldiers etc with my friends, ran around and had lots of fun. However deep down I was never comfortable with the male role model that I knew was awaiting me as I grew up - if given the choice I would prefer to be quiet and unassuming, let others take control, not be aggressive or dominant etc
I dont think that we can properly recall our feelings at this young age now that we are adults but I can see these issues in other children. Girls are tomboys and boys are scared of taking on male attitudes and responsibilites. They have shyed away from accepting the gender rules but are normal children and will probably end up being normal adults.
I don't think crossdressing is about us as children playing with dolls etc, it is really about us as children sensing that we dont want to become adult males because some aspects of masculinity scares us - like being sent to an army boot camp is daunting.
Instead we subconsciously cling onto our "feminine" traits which are comforting to us but we hide them away and these later appear through our crossdressing. We dont want to become "all male" but prefer staying just as we are.
Last edited by Helana; 03-06-2005 at 10:44 PM.
Hi Kew.I disagree:
Gender is...........
Biological
Sociological
Psychological
It's a combination of all and probably some factors not even yet identified. And as for ever figuring it out, pointing to "The Reason". I don't think this will happen as I think it is just as I said a combination of factors colluding just so.
Okay, my 2 cents again (it's starting to add up grrlz).
hugs
kew
I agree there is no one simple answer, each person has had different influences which have lead us to being who we are. I dont agree that gender itself, although based on biological and sociological differences between the sexes, is anything but a man-made, society imposed set of rules designed to give us specific roles and control our behaviour.
After all why should the color pink be feminine? What biological and sociological forces decided that?
I think my theory says that you had already worked that out for yourself at age 6 which is why you ultimately became a crossdresser. See, you just did not realise you had the answer inside you all the time. Obviously you could think clearer when you were 6 because everything was black and white thenVickie,
Yeah...at the end of the day...you are who you are!
Fascinating theory, Helana, it struck a chord with me. Reading the comments of others suggests that a "one size fits all" theory will be eternally elusive, but as I say this works for me. For those who lean towards the prior lives theory, this may be of interest:
http://snurl.com/lostintime
I agree that hormonal imbalances in the womb can change a baby's development and this is most probably the root cause of primary transsexuals who display profound gender dysphoria as soon as they can walk and talk. But these cases are rare and are not related to crossdressers who are completely normal boys until at some point usually around 6-12 years old they realise they are different. Why would a hormonal imbalance in the womb only cause a reaction 10 years later to children who want to find a way around the gender rules created by society?
What gender roles does a new born baby display?As for the timing in life of the gender role appearence, it seems to me that we begin to desplay some gender charactaristics at birth. Especially girls. Due to the fact that the body begins to produce hormones to help in the development of the body.
Crossdressers are forced to accept the norm, that is why we were usually undetectable as children, but we privately/subconsciously subverted conforming to gender roles. Strong male influences are not important in crossdressing, it is whether the boy wants to accept the adult male role model or if he feels there is a conflict with that role and his own personality.As for it being a choice that is made early in life I just can't agree because if it was a choice that we made when we were young and not some uncontrolable factor that made us cd's then there would be no such thing as cd's because society would force us to accept the "norm". We are taught from early childhood that we are suppose to act a certian way and if we don't then we are "wierd". And it can't be completely influenced by our surroundings because if it was then those of us who had strong male influences as children would not become cd's because of that influence.
Except the thinking part of the brain which interpretets gender roles develops outside the womb and thus is only exposed to the boy's own terstosterone. If it were really mostly hormonal in nature than why does our crossdressing behavior not appear throughout our entire childhood?Maybe there are social issues that contribute to it but I really believe the underlying factors are actually controled more by the development of the brain than anything around us.
Last edited by Helana; 02-02-2005 at 04:00 AM.
Hi Sharon, thanks for sharing your background with us. I don't agree that your history does conflict with my theory!
My theory does not need you to play girly games and assumes that you will develop as a normal boy playing male games. It assumes that you will conform to the male role model. However the fact that you did suddenly wonder what it was like to wear your sister's clothing shows that you did not fully accept the male role model or else you would never have worn your sister's clothes! If you had fully accepted the male gender rules you would have stayed clear of any "sissy" behaviour like the plague! Since you did crossdress this shows you had a flexible understanding of your gender role - what I call the secret backdoor that allowed you to slip into forbidden femininity which you must have a desire to experience.
There is a strong link between puberty and crossdressing, this is the time when we become acutely aware of the gender/sexual differences. I think most crossdressers would say puberty was the time when their crossdressing thoughts really came to the fore.
Its ok Holly, I am just trying to be controversal
I agree that we need to celebrate what we are, but I think the rest of the population want to understand why we are the way we are. If we cannot give them solid, understandable theories then they will forever just label as as wierdos and perverts. You cannot expect them to just agree to accept you just because you ask them to.
So while it may not be important to us personally, others will want to know so that they can switch their label from pervert to person who did not fully conform to gender roles during their childhood and seeks to reconnect with feminine feelings by crossdressing.
Thanks Donna for your viewpoint. My theory is that crossdressers (not transsexuals) are created not through hormonal or brain imbalances but by a subconscious rejection to fully conform to the male role model. My theory does not apply to primary transsexuals - sorry I did not mention that.
Because everyone has personalities that have both masculine and feminine traits as defined by society. Gender roles force us to reject some traits to conform to the male role model - ie do not be a sissy.Why do these children have 'personalities' that conflict with their assigned birth gender?
In my theory this may be a transsexual indicator, few crossdressers played with dolls as children. If the child is young, they are still too innocent of the gender differences and do not understand what the problem is. If the child is old and still plays with dolls then this is probably a transsexual or someone who simply refuses to conform at all.Consider the fact that many parents, raising a son, buys him 'boy' toys, but the boy would rather play with dolls. Why?
Thats exactly what my theory says as well - that the conflict is not resolved in that they never fully reject their gender confoming and it resurfaces later.Just because a child conforms does not mean he/she has resolved the conflict. More than likely it will resurface. Consider all the T-girls on this forum that had the 'conflict' in their early years (3, 4, 5, 6 . . .9?) and conformed to what was expected of them, yet here they are, because the conflict was only on a time-out, and it resurfaced later in life (13, 14, . . .26 . . .50).
I did provide the answer - the female image represents all things feminine so dressing in female clothes is the trigger to reverse the male model conformity and connect with hidden female traits.So, now the term 'crossdressers' has entered into the "Theory", but there has been no discussion how or why they become 'crossdressers'. Instead we are back to the the question "So why are we crossdressers?", with no answer. If I missed the answer, please enlighten me.
You believe that boys are not loving, compassionate, caring, crying people? We are all a mixture of gender characteristicsWhere did these 'feminine characteristics' come from?
All through the "Theory" there is mention of conformity to ones birth gender. For a boy that means sports, playing army, fighting, etc. So, where did the 'feminine characteristics' come from?
Just like myself and many other crossdressers, we did not have feminine influences so we are not reacting to external influences but are instead rejecting conforming fully to the male role model expected of us and removing all "sissy" traits forever from our personality.My dad was a military man, a hunter, a fisherman, an outdoorsman. I participated in all these. I have four brothers, no sisters. Was 'all boy' up to the age of 10~12 when I started CDing.
So there was no society influence on me to cause be to be a CD. So why am I a CD? Born this way.
We cannot make conclusions from one specific case, we do not know the details - there could be a myriad of reasons why she was conflcited.Consider the boy who had to undergo GRS because of a circumcision accident when an infant. The child was raised as a girl, yet she was conflicted. She didn't know why she was conflicted for quite sometime.
Why was she conflicted if the theory that our gender role is influenced by society? She killed herself once she found out.
Sorry Donna but you did not understand my theory. Each person decides for themselves if they feel comfortable conforming to their gender role. It is an internal decision quite devoid of outside influences. Twin girls can reach their own separate decisions!Consider the twin girls raised exactly the same, yet one always believed she should have been born a boy, and eventually undergoes GRS. Why was she conflicted if the theory that our gender role is influenced by society?
Last edited by Helana; 02-02-2005 at 01:46 AM.
Just a quick note. I just wanted to say thanks to everybody who has contributed. I am happy to continue this thread and comment on more responses but I dont want this to deteriorate into arguments. I know there are other theories out there which people believe in and I did not expect to change anybody's minds but I hope I did provoke you into thinking about yourself and what crossdressing means to you.
I dont believe for a second that my theory is a catch-all and does not cover primary transsexuals, but I believe that many, perhaps the majority, of crossdressers did develop along the path I outlined. My simple poll also would indicate the majority here feel there is some truth in what I have said.
The nice thing about my theory is that it is a positive one for us crossdressers. We are not just a chance or freak of nature, my theory suggests that unknowingly (subconsciouly) we decided ourselves to reject full conformity and took a path which later developed into crossdressing. We did something which the majority of the population did not do, we (bravely)rebelled and decided to keep in touch with the feelings, emotions and attractions to things which we liked ie - those traits which society has decided to label feminine. We are crossdressers because we choose to be, because we are true to ourselves even though it can causes distress in our normal lives where we have conform to gender roles
Helana, if we as a group can't talk — and talk at length — about stuff like this without worrying about arguments, then we're a sad bunch. Debate, even spirited debate, is a good thing. The lighter topics are great, but honestly, there's only so much I care to say or hear about clothes before I start drumming my fingernails. Thank you for starting this thread, and thanks to the ladies who have lent their thoughtful replies. There's nothing wrong with having to clarify yourself with additional comments. It's called dialogue. Furthermore, as someone else (can't remember who, maybe Julie York) said a few days ago, it is also okay to allow oneself to be persuaded.
Back on topic: your theory is well-stated and valid. Donna's comments are well-stated and valid, as are those of other contributors. More importantly, they are not mutually exclusive opinions, and this is not a zero-sum issue. Different people choose to blur or cross gender lines for different reasons.
The distinction you make between TSs and CDs is an important one in the context of this discussion insofar as TSs may experience a greater degree of gender conflict attributable to genetic/hormonal makeup. In their cases, crossdressing is only a phase on the path to radical gender reassignment. Conversely, I suspect that a great many CDs are as you describe — their choice is a rather willful one in the absence of insurmountable conflict. I think I'm a good example of that. But I also strongly suspect that conscious, willful choice isn't the whole explanation.
Certainly some instances of crossdressing can be accurately described as nothing more complex than a fetish, a sexual or emotional diversion that is relatively superficial and harmless enough. Truthfully, I suspect this is the case more often than many of its practitioners would care to admit, especially when there is a progressive/compulsive aspect that at some point might legitimately be thought of as disorder. As with other types of fetishists, some pretty convoluted rationalizing can take place to accomodate their "hobby", although some can be refreshingly candid about it.
For other CDs, I believe an "explanation" lies somewhere between hormonal/psychological makeup and willful choice. (Bear with me, because this is difficult to communicate.) In other words, my actual "gender makeup" might blur the line between conventional traits and roles, but I could at any time elect to suppress or express outward manifestations of my psyche and gender without unduly harming myself or causing myself insurmountable problems. But when I do elect to express a cross-gender persona, I am tapping into a predisposition that runs deeper than conscious choice, that is chemical and/or psychological in nature, and constitutes a fuller, more accurate expression of my identity and sensibilities.
Describing this third type of crossdresser leads to what I think is an important clarification. It is interesting that when we choose to outwardly express femininity, we adopt feminine clothing, makeup, etc. If evolutionists are to be believed, there was a time when the differences between the sexes amounted to little more than size, breasts and genitalia. We could, in modern times, likewise elect to express femininity without changing clothes or outward appearance. The fact that we do is an effort, I think, to make a declaration that society will recognize, that adopts and reflects the rather artificial social and cultural standards that have become something like conditioned reflexes. Sure, the clothes feel good, and it's fun to cast off the drab restrictions of acceptable male couture, but it is still about cultural standards. If all us humans had been dressing androgynously for a few centuries, how would "crossdressers" express themselves? And it is interesting that the same standards we are responding to condemn our behavior.
Does that mean I think we should give up dressing? Nope. I love my skirt.
Let me also say that these thought processes can also be brought to bear on issues unrelated to gender and sexuality. Let me give you a real-life example of what I'm talking about:
For a large portion of my young adulthood, extending into early mid-life, I caromed through a variety of jobs for which I was competent but ill-suited because they made little use of my natural talents, abilities and sensibilities. Consequently I was not happy, which in turn caused me to think a great deal about how our identities are intertwined with what we do for a living. Nevertheless, I could have continued on in this way for the rest of my life, making a living and, for all outward appearances, doing fine. But at some point I had had enough and I made the concious decision to make a major career change, completely shifting industries and craft to something that better suited my natural talents. It was not easy, and it took some time, and I probably won't advance as far as I would had I made the choice from the outset of my working life, but it was the right choice.
Last edited by sherri; 02-02-2005 at 05:46 AM.
Sherri
Many thanks for your thoughts, you obviously have pondered alot about this issue too. The range of transgenderism is wide and we humans are a complicated melting pot of thoughts and emotions. Usually this means we cannot see the wood for the trees so it is best to step back and have a good look at ourselves from afar.
We have to take responsibility for our decisions and actions. Even if you believe in the nature theory, it is still your decision to act on your crossdressing desires. You control your own destiny, you have choices.
So I truely believe that we have to take ownership of our CD personality and understand that, at the end of the day, we choose to crossdress, nobody else is forcing us.
Thanks Helena.My theory is that crossdressers (not transsexuals) are created not through hormonal or brain imbalances but by a subconscious rejection to fully conform to the male role model. My theory does not apply to primary transsexuals - sorry I did not mention that.
If the rejection was a subconscious rejection how could that ever be proven?
At least the differences in brain makeup can be researched and prooved or disprooved.
Can I ask why 'transexuals' are left out of the theory?
DonnaT
Donna - when it comes to the human mind - nothing can be proven. Even if science detects differences in brain make-up that does not prove anything either, as there is no way to predict how a person behaves and thinks by looking at brain patterns or hormone levels. The complexity of the brain goes way beyond our present capabilities and knowledge to understand it. If hormones and brain wiring had a uniform and predictable effect then we would not see the huge spectrum of individuality and personality within men and women.
Also the brain is forever changing, make new connections and breaking old ones and can re-route functions if one part becomes damaged. Any claims that transgenderism behavoir can be identified inside the brian are false as areas that deal with emotions etc evolve and shift around the neural network. Theories are only theories and most are usually proven inaccurate later on. Maybe in a hundred years we can be more certain, but for now it is little more than guesswork.
I left out primary transsexuals because these individuals' gender dysphoria appears at the same time as they become conscious of themselves. They never grew up as normal boys who later turned to crossdressing. In their case I would agree that there must be physical differences in their brains formed either in the womb or perhaps by external stimulants after birth.
Last edited by Helana; 02-03-2005 at 12:31 AM.
Helana, I disagree with the hormone theory. There are many paths that have led us here. From personal experience I would have to say mine is from classical conditioning. My father worked all the time, my sister was 13 years older than me, and was at college when I was 5. My mother was my only role model. A piece in the puzzle?
Last edited by angieSP; 02-03-2005 at 12:32 AM.
I respect your opinion, but can't agree with it, based on my own experinces
I don't see how a TS's brain can be transgendered but a CD's can't. If it's possible for one it should be possible for both.In their case I would agree that there must be physical differences in their brains formed either in the womb or perhaps by external stimulants after birth.
DonnaT
How do you explain those who were raised as the opposite sex from birth due to anomalies or accident and yet never felt comfortable as such.
Why we do what we do I can't explain and I'm sure there are many reasons as to why. As far as those who start later in life, I have a theory, the feelings have always been there but you repress them because it was not "normal", however with age comes "wisdom" and you start to question what is normal and what feels right to you.
Generally speaking, I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I consider this to be a huge point with practical, ethical and moral implications. I believe the vast majority of CDs do have choices, and not all of them exercise those choices responsibly. Far too many hide behind the "no cure" diagnosis, which is really only applicable to TS candidates, as a way to justify choices that are essentially self-serving, that in fact may be nothing more than obsessive/compulsive disorders.
I realize those are strong statements, and let me hasten to direct readers to my previous post for more explanation. But here's why it's important to talk about these things frankly: if we want spouses, friends, family, employers and the rest of the world to accept, or at least accomodate, our particular form of self-expression, we damn well better demonstrate that we are sensible, competent human beings capable of exercising good judgement and behaving responsibly. If we don't, we will continue to find ourselves viewed with the same perceptual revulsion with which society views sexual deviants, alcoholics, drug addicts, compulsive eaters or anyone else with an obsessive disorder.
This all goes back to a couple of threads that were posting when I joined this forum — there has to be a balance, or we will earn no one's respect. That balance starts with being honest with ourselves. Delusion can be convenient, but it is also destructive.
I don't know. I'm confused. How does one broadly agree or broadly disagree about such a wide subject with such a narrow selection. Maybe it's just me, it often is, but couldn't we narrowly agree if we can't broadly disagree? I like to think of myself as a broad, but my butt is too thin to be broad. Anyway, that's the skinny, as I narrowly see it. Huh? Thin mints? Yes, please.........
Last edited by Sweet Susan; 02-03-2005 at 02:08 AM.
I agree in part but also think their are and can be many other reasons that individuals crossdress.
It maybe indeed a tender years influence in some situations that suggestively puts into some developing children the female gender traits,but more importantly our species sex must inherit both female and male traits,this may at some point become a conflict of personality,our physical bodies has a unique way of repairing some major damages,and likewise our mental abilities are far more advanced than that of our physical abilities which are limited.
Men gender changes are much more abundant than of the female conflict of gender,this in itself suggests that perhapes the male species do inherit traits of both sexes ,as an example I am reminded of a male I know from another person that is very male and macho,and shows no conflict of personality,and convinces himself that he is totally heterosexual but also said he is more than willing to get head from either a female or a male,or insert so as long as neither his mouth or other orifice is entered,this I agree with you on of suppression of sex characteristics.
other reasons of suppression that is very apparent in society is the religiouse teachings embedded within our society.
Society indeed is very dangerouse because though it is defined as a standard of living set by society for society,it secretly holds many other definitions that are embedded within us,these definitions quite often are defined as rules,and more importantly morals,as we are aware that morals are the foundation of laws.
And laws are defined in differant ways as well,societies laws,and laws of nature.
These laws are quite often assumend to be correct without any investigation of its creation.
Yes men are taught to be masculine,and pretend to show affection to attract a mate for procreation,yet women have their very own unique way of acheiving a success without masculinity,contrivance,is very powerful as is guilt,so success in both sexes are apparent though each is unique,there can be no absolute adherence to any specific rule as cause,but a compilation of the whole of a total embodement of traits.
to conclude we are as each,and as each we are.
[COLOR=Pink]I am [/pink]
There there Susan, it's okay. Come sit over here by me. You see dear, we're not fighting, we're talking. And yes, do have a mint. In fact, you should have a bunch of mints ... just keep eating those mints ...
I don't know. I'm confused. How does one broadly agree or broadly disagree about such a wide subject with such a narrow selection. Maybe it's just me, it often is, but couldn't we narrowly agree if we can't broadly disagree? I like to think of myself as a broad, but my butt is too thin to be broad. Anyway, that's the skinny, as I narrowly see it. Huh? Thin mints? Yes, please.........
Because in the vast majority of CDers, there is no evidence of a trangendered brain or desire to crossdress until late childhood/puberty. If your brain was transgendered at birth then you would have had gender dsyphoria every day, every year right throughout your childhood.I respect your opinion, but can't agree with it, based on my own experinces
I don't see how a TS's brain can be transgendered but a CD's can't. If it's possible for one it should be possible for both.
Sherri, you always able to write down these points much better than I. That is an excellent post and I agree 100% with it. Another one saved on my hard drive!
Hi Kirsti, a warm heartfelt welcome to our forum.
I think both sexes inherit gender traits of each other. I know a girl who is a tomboy. For the past three years she rejected everything feminine - no skirts, dresses, frills, pink items, etc. She even got her hair cropped. She got loud and unruley, and liked playing rough and tumble. She enjoyed being boyish and played with them instead of other girls. Now puberty is arriving, she is wearing a bra and now everything has to be feminine. All she wants now are short skirts and spaghetti tops and the hair is growing long again.
You raised a good point about why CDing is predominantly a male thing. I think this has two components;
1. the male role model which society imposes upon boys is more restrictive and more terrifying and so the incidence of rejection is higher. I think "feminine" traits of love, understanding, compassion are valued more highly by both sexes than aggression, brutality, dominance, competitive "male" traits. Girls feel more at ease with their gender roles as they are a more natural way to behave. The male gender role is more at odds with a "normal" person than the female role.
2. upon puberty males find sexual fantasies to use when masturbating and crossdressers use these extensively which further engrains crossdressing into the boy's psychology. Girls on the otherhand rarely masturbate with puberty and do not develop sexual fantasies until they actually begin experiencing sexual relationships. Instead they cling to romantic fantasies.
Last edited by Helana; 03-06-2005 at 10:52 PM.
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