Trans people & crossdressers ? the same thing

[Kimberley]

TG is one of those double usage things where on one hand referring to the end of the spectrum while on the other hand in a generalized broad term refers to the whole spectrum. Use in context I guess.

Regardless, we are all transgendered or we wouldnt even crossdress. It is a matter of degree in my mind.


Kimberley

[Casey Morgan]

One question I keep bumping into as I try to come up with a reply to this thread, and I don't mean any offense to anyone and especially Marissa, is why are we trying to define other peoples' identities? Rather than saying |this is what X is| we should be saying "this is how people who identify as X define it". Some do that, but some insist on creating the definitions. In my opinion, if you're not X then you don't get a vote as to what X is. You can only report on what they say it is.

We also need to be aware that "transgendered" is used in four (slightly) different ways.

1)Virginia Prince's original definition.

The term transgender was coined in the 1970s by Virginia Prince in the USA, as a contrast with the term "transsexual," to refer to someone who does not desire surgical intervention to "change sex," and/or who believes that they fall "between" genders, not identifying fully, or strictly, as either male or female.

http://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Transgendered
The bit in bold is why I identify as TG if you group everybody into CD, TV, TG, and TS, BTW.

2) The umbrella usage. Quoting from the same page:

"Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender, but combines or moves between these" (Oxford English Dictionary, Draft Entry 2004)
"People who were assigned a gender, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."
"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the gender one was assigned at birth."

3) A synonym for transsexual.

4) Someone whose gender does not match their birth sex, whether it is the opposite of their birth sex or is "between" male and female. (That needs a little work. Any suggestions, Peace?)

So as we stray from the definitions Marissa used to ask her question, be very sure WHICH definition of transgendered you are referring to.

[tommi]

TG is one of those double usage things where on one hand referring to the end of the spectrum while on the other hand in a generalized broad term refers to the whole spectrum. Use in context I guess.

Regardless, we are all transgendered or we wouldnt even crossdress. It is a matter of degree in my mind.


Kimberley

For some of us finding who we are in this spectrum is easy for others
counciling and support groups are needed.
Many may want more but due to circumstances we can not go further, others
my self included find that a support group and therapist will help find the happy medium we are looking for.

[Brianna Lovely]

Last week I was at a show and the MC, a short, thin woman, introduced herself, then said:
Will you look at me!
Flat chested and skinny legs!
Oh my, I'm a Gay man, trapped in a Lesbians body!

At once, I thought it was funny, but at the same time, understood how she felt.


I consider myself as Trans-Gendered, having some of the thoughts, feelings, desires and emotions of both genders. I choose to Croos-Dress, because I don't know how to express my feelings, and dressing seems right.

No, I have no desire for SRS, but, just to understand who I am, and find a way to let other people know who I am, without getting killed in the process.

So, for now, dressing will have to do.

[RobertaFermina]

Well there is the road to Jerusalem, and few of us live there. (sadly, many who transition communicate less with the transgender community).

So If we want to live in Jerusalem, or merely to visit, we have to travel the same road. Some of us commute by jet, and some of us take that deliberate, and one-way pilgrimage.

Once we get there, whether it is to view the Old City, have a felafel, or visit the Real Estate Agent, we breathe the same air, walk the same streets, and take in the same sights and sounds.

The Spice is Nice, and some of us who came just for a visit might just find an unexpected draw for the Estate Agent's Shop.

I think we dance in the same cloud, and I would neither lump us together nor pull us apart....that's an individual decision, as I see it.


Roberta

[Angela E.]

By definition,anyone who assumes the charecteristics of the opposite gender is transgendered.The only differences are in degree.-Angela. :GE:

[suzanne]

I see the whole gender identity issue as a sliding scale from zero to ten. I place genetic males with no feminine qualities at zero and post op MTF's at ten. I think I am somwhere around six. Everyone falls somewhere on this scale which has a bell-shaped distribution, although determining where the peak is will be difficult, as the vast majority either is unaware of their femininity or lies about it.

[MJ]

One question I keep bumping into as I try to come up with a reply to this thread, and I

don't mean any offense to anyone and especially Marissa, is why are we trying to define other peoples' identities? Rather than saying

|this is what X is| we should be saying "this is how people who identify as X define it". Some do that, but some insist on creating the definitions. In my opinion, if you're not X then you don't get a vote as to what X is. You can only report on what they say it is.

We also need to be aware that "transgendered" is used in four (slightly) different ways.

1)Virginia Prince's original definition.

http://en.wikipedia.com/wiki/Transgendered
The bit in bold is why I identify as TG if you group everybody into CD, TV, TG, and TS, BTW.

2) The umbrella usage. Quoting from the same page:


3) A synonym for transsexual.

4) Someone whose gender does not match their birth sex, whether it is the opposite of their birth sex or is "between" male and female. (That needs a little work. Any suggestions, Peace?)

So as we stray from the definitions Marissa used to ask her question, be very sure WHICH definition of transgendered you are referring to.

no offense taken Casey, and your right i get asked what's the difference my reply is we just like to dress for whatever our reason and someone comes up with a good answer
to me you all are great we all are . but when we are out there we will get ask difficult question it would be good to have an answer

[dann]

I just assumed CDing is a form of transgender(.....ahhh..umm..)ness. Or transgenderism. I guess it's just my view. When I came out to my wife (for real..all the way) I explained to her that I was transgendered and that CDing was my form of being transgendered and that in my understanding there are many different levels of being transgendered. So I subscribe to the "umbrella" theory. That being said i see transexuals on a different transgender level level as Crossdressers.yet, from my view, we are all transgender.I'm sure some would disagree.But It's just the way I've come to understand it and that understanding has quieted my mind alot in the past several months.

[MarinaTwelve200]

hi y'all
i would like your input here, as well all have different views ..
do you think that cross dressers and transgendered are the same thing in a way ?
why i ask is we all love to dress :-
a. some can get away with pantyhose and heels " lucky them "
b. some of us dress all the way head to toe and makeup

the big difference being as cross dressers love woman for the most part and would not want hrt or surgery
and transgendered people want the hormones and surgery and live full time , so do you consider your selfs to be a trans person ?
this is open to everyone
thank you for your input and please no flaming
hugs Marissa

"TG" and TS persons may CD, but not all CDs are TG or TS-----There are LOTS of reasons for CDing, and being TG is only ONE of them. Some CD for the simple "Thrill" of bucking tradition, violating a taboo or shocking others, some CD for the relaxation/stress releif effects that happen when one (using CD) detaches from their identity. a LOT of CD has nothing to do with sex and sexuality at all----and is likely why some GAY people(who arent TS) would also CD, something that ordinarily wouldnt make sense., given their like of men and manly things.

[ToyGirl]

With the assumption MJ stated transgender not as an umbrella but in meaning transsexual. If not my apoligies.

In my opinion and experience with transsexuals and crossdressers there is alot of difference , though as Robin stated , some of it can blur the lines of the spectrum.

I was reading the local news paper last night , and was surprised to see there had been a crossdressing contest at the annual cancer fundraiser. They had a winner printed for FTM and MTF. Now im aware of the boy who won as being fairly feminine looking as is the other boys in his family.

How this is relevant is that crossdressers seemed to seek at such oppurtunities were crossdressing in public is accepted (like halloween) were transsexuals avoid these like the plague. It was hard for me (a ts) to hide i was a girl and as much as i'd liked to have had an oppurtunity to dress like a girl it was just to risky , people might see the 'real me'. I don't know if this boy who is a CD or not , who knows.

I also find transsexuals have little interest in clothes , clothes are just a means to and ends to blending and passing. Ive been in more than one argumentive thread on a TS site about clothes. Im pretty much an outcast for liking clothes. It is one of the reasons i like this site. Alot of the conversations about clothes i enjoy , tips about passing and wich clothes wich body type etc are pf value to everyone.

In conversation , when im talking to my CD friends it's about normal things or clothes and occasionaly make up. With my TS friends we talk about passing , surgery , hrt , red tape and changing documents aswell as normal conversation.

Thats just a couple of things. Just looking at the thread names on a TS site and a CD site you can see a complete difference in topics.

[kerrianna]

I never used to think of my CDing as having much to do with TG (or even thought about or knew much about) TG, but the more I learn the more I see it does. I found this an interesting read - it's from a link on the Sticky that Julie posted on the Transexual Forum here. It's interesting to view TG as not necessarily involving the whole of one's gender, but maybe just parts (brain, sex, etc). I'll warn you that there are a couple of graphic pics here too. I don't know how valid these points are but I realized I could say parts of my gender identity are definitely TG which could explain my early interest in CDing.
http://www.transgendercare.com/guida..._is_gender.htm

So I'd say most, if not all CDers, probably are TG in some aspect which fluctuates from person to person. It's also possible there may be a number of TGs out there who don't even CD.

TS is a different definition for sure.

I don't like to define myself, but I guess I like to explore theories and curiosities about why I am the way I am. But in the end, I don't care what you call me...just don't call me late for dinner.

[Rachel Morley]

From my personal point of view, I see "being transgendered" as either being a somewhat serious crossdresser (as apposed to a "panties only" crossdresser) or a rather generic term for a transsexual, although obviously the two are very different in reality.

To me transgendered is just that, "cross-gendered" whether that means a transsexual, an en femme crossdresser or someone who likes to mix things up a bit and have their gender expression be something more androgynous. Having said all that, I fully expect someone to say to me that being a transsexual is not (technically) being transgendered because they don't identify with the "cross part" of my definition. Meaning that they believe that they really are a woman (or man) trapped inside the wrong body and so the crossing bit is not intentional for them.

Phew, it all seems very complicated and a little bit subjective!

[Sejd]

Marissa, I think that the boxes are too narrow and that we all have our special gift to give this world. I for example don't want to become a female (all the way, surgery and all) but at the same time, I consider myself a Trannie!!!! We have this strange behavior on this forum to categorize everyone into boxes which all understand. I don't think it is that simple. I wish, for myself, that psychoanalocys was more progressed and that we could embrace a more differentiated view of our own condition. I like to think of the Native American concept of the so called "Seccond spirit", a person who is in between. Anyway, this is a facinating path for sure.
hugs
Sejd

[joanlynn28]

Marissa I think you already know my answer to your question from some of our private chats. There are a lot of similarities between CDs and TS's but we are still like but not so like animals of the same color. Me I am truly a transwoman, dressing doesn't do it for me, living it full time is where I have to be, it has got to be all or nothing for me there is no in between. I just thank God that he allowed me to be born at a time where the state of medicine is able to do something for us that are truely transgendered. I'm a woman at heart and according to God's plan for me this is where aI am supposed to be.

[Robin Leigh]

Very much multi-dimensional

Cool! Linear continua are so limiting.

Thanks Some say it's a good likeness

Whenever I see your avatar, it reminds me of that old R&B classic: "When a Man Loves a Badger", by Percy Hedgehog.

In my late teens & early 20s I knew a guy with the nickname of Badger. I knew him for several years before I found out he was a CDer. We never saw each other dressed up, even though we shared a house at one stage. And the first girl to dress me up (not counting my mother) eventually became his girlfriend for a few years.



Robin

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Cool! Linear continua are so limiting.

Whenever I see your avatar, it reminds me of that old R&B classic: "When a Man Loves a Badger", by Percy Hedgehog.

IRC, he always sang it at the end of his sett

Going Underground by the Jam has always been a favourite of mine. And of course anything (or even Something) by the Beetles

In my late teens & early 20s I knew a guy with the nickname of Badger. I knew him for several years before I found out he was a CDer. We never saw each other dressed up, even though we shared a house at one stage. And the first girl to dress me up (not counting my mother) eventually became his girlfriend for a few years.



Robin

He's clearly an imposter. There is only one crossdressing badger (which some may say is one too many )

[Casey Morgan]

OK, I think I've got it. A crossdresser is someone whose sex and gender match. A trans person (the transsexual meaning) is someone whose sex and gender are opposites and who often but not always is trying to change their sex to match their gender.

I think that leaves the door open for further questions if they're interested. You can get into non-op TSs and TGs (the specific identity) whose sex and gender are opposites. From TG you can get into people who are between genders. And you can get into all the flavors of CD and TV. ("If their sex and gender match, then why the heck do they do it?") That one answer can end up doing justice to the whole Transgender community.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

OK, I think I've got it. A crossdresser is someone whose sex and gender match.

Wrong. And it isn't about gender it's about gender identity.

A trans person (the transsexual meaning) is someone whose sex and gender are opposites and who often but not always is trying to change their sex to match their gender.

Not opposite (although does happen in rare cases) but anyone whose gender identity doesn't fit their birth sex. And it's not usually about trying to change sex. It's about trying to more fully express their gender identity, something you do every time you crossdress even if you don't realise that's what you're really doing. Hope this makes it clearer.

[Trinni]

This is a very tough question to answer. The reason I say that is because for me, I go through waves of wanting to dress and be as much of a woman as possible, times where I want to dress to feel sexy, and times where I don't want to dress at all. There are other times when I am not dressed and don't feel like dressing but I feel like Trinni more than ever. It is all a state of mind and from what I have read on this board, people have started CDing for one reason and over time that reaon has changed.

Now another side is everyone else and perception. The terms has different meaning to different people and for some, nothing will change there minds. Think cable is helping because of how many shows talk about this subject now. Society is slowly starting to see the story from the inside.

I guess I have drifted from the original queston and for me, I am a cross dresser butnot transgendered because I have not taken and medical steps towards a change. I would like to try for the change if I could take it all back in an instant, but I have felt the same way about being the size of an offensive lineman.

[Robin Leigh]

IRC, he always sang it at the end of his sett

Oh no, we have a punning badger!

He's clearly an imposter. There is only one crossdressing badger (which some may say is one too many )

Righto.

Wrong. And it isn't about gender it's about gender identity.

Not opposite (although does happen in rare cases) but anyone whose gender identity doesn't fit their birth sex. And it's not usually about trying to change sex. It's about trying to more fully express their gender identity, something you do every time you crossdress even if you don't realise that's what you're really doing.

Makes sense to me.

Hope this makes it clearer.

We really do need to create a glossary. So often these gender theory threads collapse into a mess of definitions & semantics.



Robin

[RobertaFermina]

Language is by its nature a tentative and fluid medium of exchange.

It is not confirmed by agreement with a dictionary but by usage, through shared understandings, and a shared sense of wonder and connection which has been built and brokered, at least in part, by spoken or gestured language.

The meaning of a word changes with the context of its usage, and so often I use a word because it sounds right. I can violate the meaning of a word but place it in a phrase where the sound of it evokes the feeling or meaning or memory of a phrase to communicate an idea, or just to keep a conversation alive. The communication might be more about grasping-, seeing-, hearing-, and feeling-*US* than about exchanging ideas. I could use 'transgender' as a screwdriver, a prybar, a doorstop, a hand-grenade, or as a sacred chalice....its all about what is in my mind and heart and what essence or aura of meaning I wish to embed in the word when I cast it forth.


No part of the transaction can be confirmed to mean/feel/inspire the same ideas for all parties of a communication - not the meaning of any gesture, or any word, and not even individual experiences of a shared moment of understanding or 'truth' - a moment that *seems-to-be* CO-PRESENCE.

It all comes together, and is appreciated uniquely by each of us, and we try again and again to connect and reconnect with these tools that seem so solid and consistent as we use them, yet become hollow and insubstantial when subjected to intense scrutiny.

Somewhere, something may be eternal, and perhaps constant, and the roots of our being may be planted there. That constancy is not in a word...the closer we scrutinize them, the more we see they are empty vessels, ready containers for our dreams and desires.

There is a clearing and a large fire burns there, among several smaller ones. Surrounding the fire are sitting-logs, and benches and a few spread blankets. A crowd of people sit there, share the warmth of the fire, tell stories, share meals, make music, pick pockets, feed squirrels, shed emotion, moan and gnash their teeth, and create sacred space and healing. This fire is visited by people who occasionally utter the totem-word "Transgender".

Standing at any one fire, I can sense the heat of the others, and hear the totem-word voiced in a unique way, and can easily turn and appreciate the commonality, and distance of the folk gathered around and between the fires.

I notice folk who wander amongst some, or all of the fires. Others are content to dwell near one.

We do not all agree on what the word means, except that for all of us, it touches something SACRED.




Roberta

[marie354]

I like that a lot, RobertaFermina. Very good, and diplomatic. Maybe you should run for Mayor of CD Town... Wait a minute... Wasn't there a thread about that?

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I guess I have drifted from the original queston and for me, I am a cross dresser butnot transgendered because I have not taken and medical steps towards a change. I would like to try for the change if I could take it all back in an instant, but I have felt the same way about being the size of an offensive lineman.

Medical steps have nothing to do with with being transgender. Medical procedures simply provide a means for those who need to do so to bring their physical appearance more in line with their gender identity. The big problem trans people face is that we're not allowed to be simply trans - society forces us to be either male or female. So we end up flipping backward and forward between the two - presenting both sides of the coin if you like. We also have to constantly struggle with balancing what we would gain by being as we would like to be against what we would lose. For many, the hair-shirt of their birth sex represents a form of safely, a facade behind which they can hide. Given totally free choice and no negative consequences, I think most trans people would go a lot further than merely crossdressing in private although only a tiny proportion would go as far as GRS. But since in most countries trans people don't have that free choice some try to convince themselves that it's just a little hobby and that their hair-shirt is really a home.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Oh no, we have a punning badger!

Had to be done