Do you really feel like a woman?

[Stephenie S]

Tess,

Perhaps we cannot come to a perfect meeting of minds here, but we may be just stating similar points of view from different semantic angles. I did state that we all have aspects of our personalities that could be called masculine or feminine. And I did state that we could feel more or less masculine or feminine. My original thought was that we cannot "feel like a woman", we can only feel like ourselves expressing our that part of our personality that is feminine. I think that there is probably no particular "feeling" that is exclusively woman, any more than there is a particular "feeling" that is exclusively male.

And, hon, as a medical professional, I am well aware that it is physiologically possible for a male breast to produce milk. Not very much milk, probably not enough to provide enough nutrition for a growing infant, but possible. My point was only that childbearing and nursing was a part of femininity that was not normaly available to men to experience, as opposed to wearing an article of clothing or exhibiting emotion in public.

I really don't think we are too far apart on this issue.

Lovies,
Steph

[sandra-leigh]

But you already "feel" as much a woman as you ever will.

My experiences lead me to consider that claim to be incorrect -- sufficiently incorrect that I disagree with the entire premise of your argument, not just disagree with minor details.

Case in point:

One afternoon, I put on a skirt and obviously-womens top under my male clothing, put my wig and shoes in a bag, left my workplace (it wasn't during regular working hours), and started wandering around downtown. I found a quiet alley where I was hidden from view and slipped off my male outerwear, put on my wig and shoes, and started walking around through quiet areas (our downtown has residential areas mixed with commercial.) When I'd had enough, I started looking around for a secluded place to change back; I only need a moment to pull on jeans and take off the wig, but I don't like people seeing me during that moment of transition, as it is the transition that proves that I'm crossdressing. I had trouble finding a change-back place that was secluded enough for my tastes, but eventually reached an infrequented alley, near a main street, that I remembered had some bins I could step behind, so I turned into the alley. A moment later I looked behind to be sure the coast was clear, and discovered that though I hadn't seen anyone close to me before I turned in, that a large guy was behind me in the alley, less than 100 feet away.
When I saw that a large guy was close behind Dressed me in the alley, I had a flash of fear: "This guy has followed me because he thinks that I'm a woman alone in the alley! I could get raped!"
Needless to say, I didn't stop to change: I picked up the pace a bit and got out of there. The guy didn't follow me or hurry after me, so it was likely just a coincidence, but I'd already had my scare.

As a male, there are places I won't go at times due to the risk of being mugged, but I'm a guy, not afraid of those places, I just take sensible precautions. But when I looked back and saw that big guy behind me, I was temporarily female, and I reacted viscerally as a female, "It was a bad bad mistake to go down this alley by myself: I'm going to be sexually attacked just because I'm a woman (right now)!"

Thus, for a moment, I definitely felt I was being treated as a woman, not just as an imitation woman but rather mistaken for a real woman, and my reaction (which occured far too quickly to have "reasoned" to that state) was the one numerous women have told me they have: that they are afraid to go isolated places or dark places or to walk alone at night, because they are afraid of being raped.
This feeling of fear of sexual assault and consequent fear of less-frequented places, was something completely outside my male experience: I literally couldn't understand it, couldn't understand how women could be afraid all the time like that. But then I experienced it for myself: I felt like a woman, felt as women (commonly) feel, rather than how a male would have felt in the same time and place.

I have long asked myself, "But what's it like to be a woman, to live life as women do, to be treated as women are treated?" -- and in that moment, I had at least part of the answer.

You say that I already feel as much like a woman as I ever will, but before that moment I felt less like woman feel than I did after. It happened once, so it can happen again: there are likely to be other incidents when in some aspect or other I will react femalely rather than malely, or will feel that (while crossdressed) that I have been treated the way women are (generally) treated rather than as men or imitation-women are.


Certainly, a lot of the time, I am "a man wearing womens clothes" -- possibly more so than most of the participants in this thread, as I go out "gender-bending" a fair bit, which is something that feels right and comfortable for me. Gender-bending, you might be "man-plus", but you know you aren't "passing": it's a great discipline for knowing that what you are experiencing is individual and personal to you rather than getting lost in the wasteland of "Am I feminine enough?" (whatever that means). But when I dress fully and really go out presenting myself as a woman, then my reactions are often different, and often not rationally explicable.

For example, if I were dressed as male, and a guy were to tell me, "Nice legs!", I'd be like, "Ummm, yah, whatever (what are you, strange? and why are you telling me this??)". But when I'm Dressed and a guy tells me "Nice legs!", I immediately feel good about it. My reactions and emotions while Dressed are different. And it isn't that I'm reasoning differently about the situations: I'm not busy telling myself, "Let's see, you are currently dressed as a woman, and this male has just said something that would be considered to be a compliment to a woman, so this male is attempting to compliment you; okay, so are you in the mood to consider compliments? Since you are a male yourself, are you just going to accept the compliment in the spirit of generosity, or have you reasoned out your reaction to males while you are showing yourself as a woman? You've decided to accept the compliment? Aesthetically or emotionally? Emotionally? Okay, gate open the feel-good circuits in your body!" I'm talking about feelings: that feel-good circuit kicks in before I think about what's happening, and it's afterwards that I start trying to reason out what happened and how I feel about having felt good about a compliment from a male.

Is that "feeling" "like a woman", or is "just feeling in your own way because you are an individual and no-one else can feel exactly the way you feel"? I consider the latter to be a very reductionist approach that doesn't work for me: while Dressed, my feelings and reaction have a statistically meaningful greater corelation towards those of women rather than men, so as far as I am concerned, during that time, it is perfectly meaningful to say that I am feeling more like a woman, to the extent that we can make any generalization that men feel differently than women do.

(If my language of "statistical corelation" and "covariance" throws people off: Sorry, I have a math degree and work in science, so in a discussion of meaning, I tend to fall back to language of precision.)

[janedoe311]

My experiences lead me to consider that claim to be incorrect -- sufficiently incorrect that I disagree with the entire premise of your argument, not just disagree with minor details.

You tell him! I have been a bit annoyed this “Medical professional” egotism and superiority complex. So I am glad someone told him off.

[sandra-leigh]

So I am glad someone told him off.

Urrr, it's essentially a philisophical debate between different schools of meaning, not intended to be personal.
Stephanie is arguing from a Logical Positivist viewpoint, and I'm arguing the validity of Revealed Experience

[Elizabeth Ann]

As the original poster, I really appreciate all of the responses, and am a bit dismayed at what seems like some small unpleasantness in the thread. But you are very civil about it. My other forum participation is in sailboat racing. Now there's a confrontational bunch!

It seems to me that the responses here indicate that some people, perhaps the majority, feel that their emotions and personality are different when they are dressed than when they are not. I don't know if this is "feeling like a woman" or not. I suppose that some could attribute some sort of sexism (or it is genderism?) to the process of assigning some attributes as female and some as male, but let's not go there.

What does seem clear is that this is a very complex process involving willfull changes in our environment (cross dressing), internal psychological issues, and external responses to us. Not being "out," I haven't experienced the effect of external responses, which may be why I don't understand what is going on. But somehow I think it is more than that, that the underlying processes can provoke a wide range of feelings and behaviors, as has been demonstrated by this thread.

I'll be exploring it with more questions to this group. I know that I will get a lot of responses along the lines of "it's unfathomable, just enjoy it." But I don't think it is beyond understanding, and I don't know that I can really enjoy something that is this important and unpredictable. Can you just slip on a dress and wonder: what happens next?

Elizabeth

[sandra-leigh]

I don't know that I can really enjoy something that is this important and unpredictable. Can you just slip on a dress and wonder: what happens next?

I'd say: Yes, some of us can do pretty much that.

If you only dress at home, or only dress in public when no-one can come near enough for an interaction, then the question becomes somewhat moot. And if you only dress to a T, never risking going out unless you have practiced your walk and got your femme voice down already and got yourself made up perfectly so as to be unrecognizable and only go "safe" places... then you are probably greatly concerned about Control of the situation, and might never be able to let go of that control. Similarily, if you are mortified about the possibility of "being read", then you might be too self-conscious to give in to the situation.

But it is pretty difficult to discover unknown qualities about yourself by pure introspection, so sometimes some people just dress up (or part dress), and go out -- go out to see what happens, to experience dressed life casually rather than totally pre-planned, to open themselves to what is happening in the world and to open themselves to discovering their reactions to those events. They just slip on a dress (or whatever) and go out to see what happens.

A moment ago, I paused in the middle of this message, put on a long denim skirt, B/C forms and stretch top, tights, jacket and gloves, and was going to bicycle over to the drug store about a mile away and grab some groceries there. No wig, no attempt to hide that I'm male, just me and the experience. I've biked in a skirt before, and I've gone into that drugstore in a skirt before, so I didn't expect anything unusual to happen, but if it had, I would have dealt with it.
Unfortunately, it turns out that with the windchill, it's effectively about 0F outside right now, and I know from past experience that that gets really cold on a bike, so I didn't go further than my back yard. I did, though, go into my backyard during daylight, wearing a skirt and not worried about the neighbours. I don't worry about the neigbours seeing me get into or out of a taxi when I go out Dressed either: I just put on whatever and go with the flow.

Sometimes you just have to let go of any shame and embarrasment and say "Heck, I'm me, and I'm going to have a good day!", and slip on those clothes and go out and let yourself enjoy what comes.

[Michellebej]

It seems to me that both of you girls are coming down on the side of "yes, I can know what it feels to be like a women". Albiet from different perspectives.

It seems that most of the debate is between an individualistic viewpoint and a group viewpoint. Both I believe are valid.

I do feel that equating "feminine" with GG is about as meaningless as equating "masculine" with GM. That is in any absolute sense. Certinaly you could argue the point, as I think Tess is trying to, that femininity is more prevelant in a given ( GG in this case) population group.

Having said that I do not think that it is an exclusive trait to the GG population group. And; I think that is Steph's point.

I spend most of my professional and personal time with GGs. Most of whom now know Michelle. I now go out once a week or so with the girls, and no one has ever read me that I know of ( agreed that it is easier to pass when you are with GGs). My friends tell me that the two things that make me so passable are confidence and my femininity. My friends will tell you that I am the most feminine women in the group. And; one of the most maternal. I am refered to by most of my friends as "aunt Michelle". At least when they want my advice.

In fact some of my best friends won't even talk, non-professionally, to my non-Michelle persona.

But; Tess hun, my background is in Engineering, and I can use washers on an elipsoid as well; but I had trouble following your initial argument ( used in its meaning as a vehicle for debate).

Michelle

[Sejd]

Elizabeth
I think you got it right, Bulls eye! because the point is that you don't change who you are,you just become more of who you are in a skirt. I am like you, 56 years old, and have just recently fully understood what it mean for me to be a transgender person. I would highly recomend to you that you go visit a sexologist who is specialized in these matters. It would be very helpful to you I think.
thanks for sharing. You are on your way sister!!!!
hugs
Sejd

[Fresh_as_Candy]

when I dress as a woman, it feels so right... it gives me a confident feeling and I deffinately get off on being seen as a woman, especially when Im mistaken for a real woman

[Stephenie S]

Well Tess, I did read your reply carefully. Maybe we just won't agree on this. I do feel we have more in common than you seem to feel we do, but perhaps not. The more you write, the less I find to disagree with.

I know how I "feel" and it's pretty much just ME feeling. Perhaps the problem I am having is that I feel feminine pretty much all the time. My entire life until a few years ago was spent trying to prove that I was a man, and it felt fake the whole time I was doing it.

I can remember the first times I CDed, and I can remember saying to myself, "So THIS is what it feels like to wear a dress". I can't ever remember saying, "So this is what it feels like to be a woman", because I already felt that I was a woman.

I have enjoyed our discussion, hon.

Stephenie

[Stephenie S]

Jane, so sorry to have ruffled your feathers, dear. My apologies.

Steph

[sandra-leigh]

The more you write, the less I find to disagree with.

I'm fairly sensitive to shades of meaning, and particularily sensitive to use of the word "never". You said <<you can never feel more like a woman than you do now>> and I see not as a statement of difficulty of the topic but instead as a statement of literal impossibility. At that point I say, "hold on, but 'feel like' can mean This, or it can mean That, and under those meanings it is possible; furthermore I had this Revelation during which I felt with female reactions rather than with male, so <<never more>> cannot be right."

There are a lot of situations that are foreign to my lower-middle-class white suburban male upbringing, things I can read about but am blocked from internalizing; I might trust the reputation of the author, but I can't really believe them, instead reacting with variations of "That's so stupid, no-one would put up with that!" or "People can't really be like that!". For example, I have never truly intuitively understood what it is like to grow up Black in a ghetto: intellectualizing about it starting from my upbringing as a base just doesn't get me close enough to really feel it -- and if I were to dress up as Black for awhile and go visit a ghetto, I probably still wouldn't feel it in my bones.

Similarily, there are aspects of being a woman that I don't "get" right now, some of which I probably never will. But there is, I think, enough fluidity in gender that if I ever got to the point of being publically accepted as actually being female, that I would probably end up having experiences where I would indeed "get" something that I don't "get" now; if it should happen, even in small ways, then afterwards I would feel more like a woman than I do now.

An example of something that I think might be within reach is to experience female gender roles outside of urban life. With my Feminist Era upbringing, it is easy to fall into the thought process of "Women are just people who happen to have a different physiology then Men". It's an assessment that ignores what happens on average, boeyed by the optimism of knowing that it is within social acceptability for urban women to do the same kind of work as men, appear to have the same motivations, have the same kind of self-confidence as men, and so on. But according to what I read, it isn't the same outside of the urban North; e.g., that for the most part, being male or being female are quite different experiences in the southern USA. Hypothetically, if I were to get to the point of routinely "passing", and I were to visit the southern USA, I would experience differences for myself, and thereby come to understand more of what it is to be a woman. An example: that in a get-together, women are expected to "help out in the kitchen" before-hand; and after-dinner, that the men are to be left alone for "male talk". That relegation of conversation by gender class is not within my experience. Or, I can read about phrases such as "Don't worry your pretty little head about it!", but until I have sincerely been told it a few times by people who perceive me as female, reading is not the same as understanding and feeling.

[Stephenie S]

I think this is why they say never say never.

I have some thoughts about your post but no time now to write.

Steph

[Lovely Rita]

Everyone is different. No two are alike. I definitely feel different when dressed and I would categorize it as feeling like a woman, but that is my perogative. For those who don't that is their journey. All our journey's are different and so it would be hard for me to explain what you do or don't feel. All I can say is that my SO says I become quite the Diva without talent when dressed. She really notices a change. I am definitely 100% Rita, whatever that is. I Feel like a woman and loving it. I don't over analyze it either.

Take care

[sandra-leigh]

All I can say is that my SO says I become quite the Diva without talent when dressed.

Gosh, how did you ever pass the Barbara Steisand test on the forums signup page?

[sandra-leigh]

But; Tess hun, my background is in Engineering, and I can use washers on an elipsoid as well; but I had trouble following your initial argument ( used in its meaning as a vehicle for debate).

I think I have some leftover initial arguments that I'm not using, sitting around here somewhere. I accumulate them like those styrofoam chips they pack in boxes. I could probably ship some off to you if you're running short

[daniellalee]

There are alot of different levels to this strange and wonderful lifestyle. You can't simply put all of us in one neat catagory. Some of us are more serious about this than others. Some of us really need to be like women and go so far as to change genetic sex completely. Some of us just like to express our feminine side on occasion and some do it purely for the sexual thrill. It sounds like in your case that you are doing it because you are a stereotypical heterosexual male obsessed with women and since you do not get as much sexual contact as you would like, you resort to wearing feminine attire. It is very common for men to make the association of female clothing as being with a women. Soft and feminine is what you are sexaully attracted to and it has nothing to do with you wanting to became a women full-time or part-time.

[LoriFlores]

I feel like me, TG.

On the inside I'm female (although suffering from the effects of testosterone). Unfortunately, on the outside I'm male (flat on top, ugly bump in my pants).

[sandra-leigh]

It sounds like in your case that you are doing it because

Hi, Daniellalee: could you clarify who the "you" is that you were addressing? Are you referring to the original poster, or to one of us layabouts?

since you do not get as much sexual contact as you would like

Some of the other threads I have read have had a fair number of people saying, "Yes, I haven't had any sexual intimacy for <N> years". I know I haven't learned everyone's history yet nor do I always manage to keep straight whom is whom, but as best I can tell, in the great majority of the cases, the crossdressing started first. I knew my crossdressing started around puberty; I just didn't realize what it was until my early 40's.

[BethGG]

Tess, I don't quite get your point. Even if only women eat yogurt, eating yogurt doesn't make you "feel" like a woman. It only makes you feel like someone who eats yogurt. We can only ever "feel" like ourselves. We can easily experience the "feeling" of eating yogurt, but I cannot see how eating yogurt can make us "feel" like that person who only eats yogurt.

When we do a brave act, we can then say, "Oh, I felt so BRAVE." When we comfort a child, or cry at an emotional movie, we can then say, "Oh, I felt so feminine". But we are still only feeling like ourselves being brave or feminine. It's still us. Women feel brave or feminine too, but there is no "feeling" of being a woman, any more than a "feeling" of being tall. Women are people. Women are human beings who feel and think like human beings. You are one too.

We can explore our femininity. We can experience many of the same things that women experience very easily. We can feel more or less feminine. But to "feel" like a woman? You already do. Women "feel" things just like you do.
It's just the same. That's all there is. Men feel things. Women feel things. We are all people. People feel things.

I guess what I am trying to do here is to de-mystify women. Many here seem to have a very unrealistic view of what it means to be a woman. Women are not some fantastic sub species. They are people. You are people. Women can bear children and suckle their young. This does make them unique. A man will never bear children or suckle their young. But women feel things just like men do. Men feel things just like women do.

We all have masculine and feminine aspects to our personalities. Some have MUCH more of one or the other. Does wearing women's clothes help you express more of your feminine traits? Good. Do it. (That is, after all, what this forum is all about) But you already "feel" as much a woman as you ever will. You can't feel like a woman. You can only feel like yourself expressing your femininity.

Again, IMHO

Stephie

Thanks for posting this! I totally agree, that's one thing that is a bit strange for me, is how people on this board always say "feel like a woman", I'm a woman but I just feel like a person. But maybe it's just focusing on semantics too much. I think usually people mean feeling "girly" or feminine. But when people even say "I can't know what it's like to feel like a woman"....it makes it sound as if women feel this totally seperate way that is alien to the human race. We're just regular people. I think there is a difference though in being treated as how women are often treated, surely that is/can be different then being treated as how a man is usually treated. I don't think that defines people though.

[daniellalee]

Yes, Tess-Leigh my comments were directed to the original post. I'll try to clarify in the future. Like you i had the desire to be girly at age 4-5 before i was thinking anything sexual but i know many guys who only started doing it around puberty when sexual anxiety was at the max. They claim they never had the desire before then. Sometimes it is hard to clarify whether i'm a crossdresser or transexual. I don't really feel the need to go all the way but i also feel that this is more than just a fetish. Why would i have this desire at such a young age?

[Kristen Kelly]

Gosh, how did you ever pass the Barbara Steisand test on the forums signup page?

[SIZE="3"]Slipped by that one too, if you have ever heard me sing Keroke(which I still do often) sounds like the noise my cat makes when I pull his tail.

Kristen is now so much a part of me the clothes are not needed to make the transformation it is a mental thing, when dressed there are many times I forget what outward experession I am showing, and have been caught by my GF in drab replying in my fem voice, and walking the walk.[/SIZE]

[Tee]

I understand the different experiences. When I am on this forum, I am femme, and all the people here are femme.
I went through a period of several months when dressing actually suppressed sexual urges, completely. For me, the various aspects of dressing ebb and flow.
One thing i have discovered however, if I relieve myself when dressed, I immediately loose the urge to remain dressed. Not sure if it is a repressed guilt reaction or something physiological, psychological or ???. w.

You expressed something i experienced. i went to see a therapist about it... it definitely psychological. in fact, my therapist gave me a exercise... a treatment activity, which completely removed my urge to dress for a couple of years. its was quite a miracle then, for i never thought i would be able to stop CDing, especially i have been trying to do so for years on my own.

[Minerva Morgan]

I think, Elizabeth, your observation that an evolutionary process is taking place is accurate. Initially you were likely seeking a sexual partner to replace your wife's lack of libido. I share a similar situation. There is likely more to it than that, and I suspect that my dressing had its origins in youthful curiosity combined with a fascination with the feminine. Wishing to remain faithful to your wife, you sought a partner in an alter-ego of yourself. Initially that alter-ego was only an object; but is gradually developing a personality of her own. This would be very confusing; particulary for someone who has not been cultivated in the feminine mystique. She may have been there all of the time, but not have emerged until you needed her.
In my own case, in drab or en femme, I still feel that I am the same person; but often, while dressed, do feel somewhat feminine, and try (without straining myself) to cultivate that feeling. To some degree, as suggested above, that feeling may be 'culturally' derived. That is, by pursuing femininity one becomes more feminine. Does this mean you become less masculine? I think not, but the traits become more distinct the more you switch between them.
While initially sexual in nature, the process of change would begin, in itself, to have some satisfaction; an anticipatory delight of being (being with) the lady with whom you have been intimate. In time, the companionship plus the feeling of being attractive is fulfillment in itself. Perhaps a sort of endorphin high is involved. The difficulty is that the 'companionship' is, essentially, a solitary one; and can be very lonely; which is why you and I are here.
It is very unlikely that you will ever be able to fully feel like a lady; and certainly never fully understand what it is to be a woman. You have missed too much of the experience and formative indoctrination that a real woman experiences from an early age. Nevertheless, as time passes, you will likely grow to know this 'other' person better, feel more comfortable as that person, and maybe even like yourself better.
One concern I have about your ambivalence is the sense that you think you can set this feminine facet of yourself aside and let it go. I suspect that, as in many cases, this will be impossible. This other person may well have been within you all of your life. There is no 'cure' as there is no 'disease'. This brings up the issue of gender versus sex. A simplistic notion is that one's sex is what one is born with; while one's gender is what one presents. In short, the first is inflexible (without drastic, invasive, physical alteration), but the latter has some flexibility (dependent on acquire skills, and aside from features of ones character.) Gender has been described as shades of grey; rather than black or white. A real woman has some flexibility in the degree of femininity she presents (no makeup, jewellery or dresses, but still feminine; to a full treatment knockout.) We do not have that option. To be at all presentable (in most cases except for the more fortunate), the full treatment is necessary to achieve the desired effect. Thus, for us, black and white may be all we have; with little grey. This also can be a source of confusion and frustration.
Social attitudes can also be part of your problem. You have undoubtedly been taught, however subliminally, that crossdressing is wrong, wicked, perverted, sinful and a form of mental illness. This would give rise to shame and self-denial. Do not be too quick to deny this new self; and I fear that such denial may give rise to more suffering than acceptance and understanding might.
I could well be all wrong in your particular case, but I suspect that Elizabeth is there; you simply do not know her well. What does she think?

Minerva