Now she knows

[kathy gg]

I saw Lilith's post and I had to respond...Lilith, I don't think you are a liar.

And I don't think that a cder whose wife *knows* but does not want to educate or learn or really know would even count in this situation which Jess is talking about.

I think the kind of cd that Jess is referring to is the type who has a wife/gf who is open to educating herself and learning about this and takes time to get to know yoru femme self....but STILL the cd would stillo choose not to be honest with the subjects which Jess brought up.

I mean I have met and known via forums and online many couples, in many cases the wife is supportive and giving and patient and has taken time to learn about this....but there will be tg porn-type computer sites visited, purchases which are hidden, outings which the cd has said he is at work, when he is not....I mean I think for some guys they need that *extra* edge. It is like bungee jumping in drag. Some men just find it a bit too boring when their SO is suportive...it takes the thrill that cding used to be.

And when I say purchases...I dont' want to people to think we should all monitor each other, but I knew of a situation where a cd bought a very expensive fetishy outfit ....the wife was working her butt off in overtime and one day while cleaing she came across the outfit {with receipt} and realized that instead of making an extra morgage payment liek the hubby had promised the cd apparently spent it on this outfit. When confronted he still lied saying he was holding it for a friend.

Anyway....I could go on, I know to many stories.

I think there is a difference between coupels with "dont ask dont tell" policies and outright mis-information. I really think for a portion of people...lying has become so common, so second nature it would be like unlearning how to walk.....

[Laura Jane]

Sounds more like a rant about power games going on in a relationship rather than about cross dressing.

"continue to lie" what are we talking here little white lies or great big whoppers?

"hide purchases" So what as long as its not the house keeping or someother allocated money being spent

"go on various other sites" Would you rather they looked at porn like 90% of the other guys out there!

"flirt, tease and in general act as if you do not have a partner" sounds like a lot of people of either sex who are not cross dresser.

[Satrana]

Another obvious point would be the crossdresser does not believe, rightly or wrongly, that his SO is as accepting as she claims to be, usually because she has placed limitations on his dressing or argues about it. He thinks that she will get mad at him buying more feminine clothes or going to cd sites which will increase her fear that he will become increasingly feminine in appearance and behaviour leading to full time in the future.

If a cd senses that his SO is not completely comfortable with the crossdressing it is natural that he will choose the little white lie of not directly telling her every little detail so to avoid arguments, the hurt, the confusion.

Also men are brought up to be independent and don't want to have to discuss everything they do. Everyone needs their own space so an SO requesting that every single detail of his crossdressing be openly discussed is stepping over normal lines of individual privacy. This just makes him believe that his SO does not trust or respect him and will likely make him more determined not to reveal everything.

The problem here is the focus on crossdressing as a BIG issue which means a healthy respect for each others feelings and privacy are not being met and leads to mistrust on both sides.

[kerrianna]

It does sound like CDing isn't the core issue when talking about things like this happening in a relationship Jess. In an open and honest relationship there shouldn't be a need to hide or sneak. However, people and relationships do change, and sometimes when one person moves one direction and the other doesn't it will seriously damage or destroy even the best relationship. Every person's life is unique which is why I don't think it's fair to comment on how people handle their lives or relationships, unless they are asking specifically for advice from you.

In my own case, which is all I can talk with authority about, I have at times been less than truthful with Carol, and she with me...although that has always been resolved. I have found I'm not willing to lead a secret life and hold back things from her so I have always revealed stuff to her sooner than later. I've never done anything majorly hurtful, and I trust she hasn't either, just little things. It happens in a lot of relationships. Some guys forget to mention they upgraded their PDA even though the old one was fine, some women forget to mention that they bought 2 pairs of shoes when they said they were buying one. That's fairly harmless stuff...and most good couples reveal it sooner than later and deal with it.

The big problem with doing the little stuff is it might let you think you can get away with something not so little. Like I said, I've never fallen for that temptation and I trust Carol hasn't either. We do try to stay transparent to each other - out of respect, trust, loyalty and just plain old simplicity of life.

I do flirt and tease on this forum (in a playful way) and Carol knows that. I tell her, I show her. She gets bored of hearing about Kez. I shut up.

We're both okay with harmless flirting...it's a healthy thing that helps each of us feel good about ourselves. We've been through a lot. Neither one of us will ever take it beyond that, because we both know the other won't tolerate it. I don't think flirting with others shows disrespect for your partner, and neither does Carol. If she did, I wouldn't do it. But everyone is different. Every relationship is different. I can only speak for my own life, and I would ask that others not judge it, as I will not judge theirs.

[AllieSF]

I don't have a SO yet to be open with and I do not know if I will be open with her "if and when" I find her. That all remains to be seen. I have read all the above posts and see that no one has brought up the fact that Cders are just a small segment of out total society. Inside this small segment you can expect to find a similar cross section of what exists in the larger society. By that I mean, what people do in the larger group will manifest itself in the smaller group too. Maybe in a larger or smaller percentage for whatever reason. So, if "normal" male-female couples have problems, lying and cheating being two of them, I would expect to find the same in this group. Why does it happen, for all the same reasons that they happen in the large group. Maybe a person has an accepting wife regarding CD activities, but being a "normal" human being, maybe the Cder lies, flirts and even fools around outside of his/her relationship. The only thing that should cause a smaller amount of all that negative activity is that, from what I can see and have experienced, an accepting SO is a rare find, and every effort should be made to make it work. The chances of finding a replacement may be even harder.

[Sheri 4242]

Growing older does not necessarily imply GROWING UP. This is not game, there are people (real lives) involved.

(interpretation added)

Carin and Louise raise some important points in their respective posts. Jenni does, too! First, though, I think that it is very important, as was said in an earlier post, for everyone to know that the thread was started by a gg -- and one who seemingly has a specific problem in mind, intertwined with other problems that have, perhaps, been exacerbated b/c of the main agenda.

As one quick aside, I learned many, many years ago about the occasional use of, "oh that ole dress . . . it has been in the closet for quite a whle" line. It has been a laugh line at many a party b/c we all know that it has only been in the closet for a month! Yep! It is a small lie, but a lie nonetheless. But most gg's that I know use this line all the time when they have made a purchase they weren't upfront about from the start. So, many a cd'er emulates what they have seen and uses the same line, too. BUT, that isn't, IMHO, what this thread is about. (Oh, if there is a tremendous problem with the cd'er and the "kitcs syndrome," OR if the cd'er has bought an excessively expensive outfit at the expnse of the mortgage and then lies, then there is a major problem, just as if it was the other way around and the wife bought $900 shoes when the electric bill was two months past due. It doesn't matter who does this -- the SO or the cd'er -- responsible family money management is a must! And, that is where some SO's really have an understandable problem -- their cd'ing husband is spending on two wardrobes.)

All this said, I am convinced that this thread is about the married cd'er -- even with the supporting wife or gf -- who is out there flirting, being suggestive, etc., etc. (and you can fill in for yourself what "etc., etc." might mean). Now, this is a real major relationship problem -- just as "etc., etc." would be in a relationship where there wasn't any cd'ing!!! Fidelity -- faithfullness -- is a crucial aspect of ANY relationship!!! Even strictly emotional infidelity causes deep marital problems!!! There are real lives at stake -- and a heterosexual cd'er (especially if she truly has a femme side to her personality) has, as any other committed partner, a duty to fidelity!!!

Watch _Under the Tuscan Sun_ where Diane Lane's character says something to the effect (or at least makes the implication) that the problem with infidelity is that it doesn't actually kill you!!! My wife and I are both on our second marriages. We both were married to our first spouses for 21 years. We both though marriage was for life. We both had cheating spouses -- and cd'ing had NOTHING to do with either situation!!!!!!! We have now been togther for ten years -- and the circumstances of our even meeting makes us feel we were meant to be, b/c, in the natural, we should have never met. I think my wife would join me in saying that flirting, or emotional-only affairs, or "etc., etc." is majorily destructive b/c it kills one of the basic essential elements of marriage -- trust!!!!!!!

Hey!!! If you truly have a femme side to your very being, tell your small head!!! (Hope you don't think I'm stealing your line, Carin and Louise, but it really fits!!!)

[Shannon CD]

I have never understood this either. If I had a SO who accepted I would probably go to the other extreme (one I'm sure has it's own share of issues) and want to share EVERYTHING with her. Like so many of us, that's all I have ever wanted out of life...a partner who accepts me for who I am.

[Tree GG]

...Lying will kill trust and folks if you lose the trust in a relationship; you've lost it all.

... It erodes the foundation of the marriage, If you lie about dressing, what other things are you lying about, the seeds of distrust will keep growing until the marriage becomes a battlefield..

the CDer, depending on what stage she is in with the CDing, is operating many times out of fear, even with an accepting wife...

...What surprises me on this thread is that there is no discussion of the deep, deep shame, quilt and humiliation that is part of the cross dressing experience. ...

Discussed this thread with my CDer and the above points were made by him, also. His comment was that whenever he even perceives disapproval, he runs back to the safe closet "quicker than he can ruin a new pair of pantyhose". His request is for sensitivity to his sensitivity and insecurities that aren't resolved yet.

The net conclusion to the discussion, however, is that a CD is asking for unconditional love, support and trust in learning to express their TG side (talking CD/TG activities here, no infidelity issues). The CDer has to learn to give that same unconditional trust and respect to the SO. Believing that even when an activity is uncomfortable to the SO, that the SO is not going to call names or become deliberately hurtful.

Not giving me his 100% faith & trust in what I believe to be reasonable support, makes it difficult for me to give 100% faith & trust in an activity that I am not allowed to participate in 100%. You get back what you give.

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

Ive been in this position a few times with my SO. hes bought something, then a few days later told me what hes bought, and yes, ive gone mad @ him for this , and he couldnt understand why although to be fair, "sometimes" i do over-react, and hence it leads to the matter been made a bigger issue than what is intended really.
if i may make a small point though, if the c/d just thought for a few minutes, and found out us GG's had bought something & not told them, i think they "might" be abit niggled about it. due to either financial OR something else , but thats just the comparison iam trying to make

[Kate Simmons]

We all tend to over react a bit sometimes Angie. That's called being human. I remember the same thing happened once when I started collecting comic books. I wasn't exactly forthcoming with my wife whenever I bought something, even though I didn't outright lie. She would get upset and understandibly so because I didn't take her feelings into account as she felt I was "wasting" money on my hobby. Some of us are chronic in this, being guys, and when the comic books got replaced with buying femme stuff, it was the same thing and perhaps worse. I made the mistake of not including her and finding out her feelings before doing those things and I do regret that a great deal.

[lexygirl]

The first part I can understand... mabe. But the lying and cheating, I would say that if they do it when CDing they would have done it if they didn't. Justifying there behavier with CDing is just another way to get what they want. If they can't controle themselves they should not get in to a relationship and hurt the one person that has choosen to be with them. If they want to go and do someone else, let her go to find happines somewhere else. I have a lot of friends that would love an understanging women, and would treat her like a Princes.

[Shadeauxmarie]

I’ll try to answer this. I’m one who lied to my exwife even after I had told her what I liked to wear.

What surprises me on this thread is that there is no discussion of the deep, deep shame, quilt and humiliation that is part of the cross dressing experience. It’s this, that lies at the heart of many of the problems we have.

We, I speak for my sisters, have been caring this shame since before we even knew what to call it. We just knew we felt really bad about our desires and that there was something terribly wrong with us. Family, friends, movies used words like sick and pervert to describe what brought us so much joy. Deep shame brings deep, dark tumultuous secrets. We are on constant alert. If someone found out about us we could be scolded, punished, laughed at and humiliated and possibly turned over to the medical community (this was happening into the late 70’s) for evaluation and treatment.

For me, my desire to dress like a woman and my sexual needs and desires are linked and always have been. Called it fetish, if you will. If there’s sex involved than that adds dimension to our shame and embarrassment. We all experience various levels of shyness and difficulty around this subject. How easy or hard is it to ask your lover for something new or different or even to stop doing something unpleasant?

I recently married a woman that knew everything about me. I told her what I knew about myself and what my future might be regarding transitioning, long before we married. We have both transitioning it seems. She and I are both sex positive and fetish positive. We are now open about everything and there is a strong and sustainable spiritual component to our relationship

Even being in a relationship with a woman I loved and who I knew beyond any doubt, loved me, it still took me 3-4 years to overcome the shame and deep embarrassment and open my heart and desires fully and invite her into my inner, secret, world. A world that had been my home in some ways. A place in my heart that was warm and protected and safe. I lived there alone for 50 years when I met her.

What is the depth of this shame, guilt, embarrassment and isolation? For us every time we reveal something new about ourselves it’s like a new coming out with all the angst, fears and risks associated. I know from my own experiences just how exhausting this can be.

How long does it take to do the deep kind of healing that’s needed for us to feel something we’ve never felt before.

The feeling of belonging and safety.
The feeling of self love and acceptance.
The feeling of being lovable and being loved

How do we get there from here?

I have carried this guilt for 35 years. The hiding and lying have certainly bought a huge debt. I trust my wife implicitly. I have cried many times knowing she would leave me rather than know I love to wear "women's clothes". To be seen is completely beyond the realm of possibility.

I have 4 choices:

1) Tell her I can't stop crossdressing and she would divorce me
2) Continue to hide my dressing then eventually get caught again and she would divorce me.
3) I die first.
4) She dies first and I can wear what I want.

Currently I am choosing option 2. With plenty of the above mentioned crying. I sometimes feel as if I have lost my soul.