No love for the guys?

[Nicole]

Looks like the sexual attraction police are out in force today.

We're not dealing with civil rights here - no one is discriminating against men. I can think for myself, thank you very much, and I will decide who I have sex with, and when I do it, and where I do it.

I'm a live and let live person, but please don't tell me I'm a bad person if I don't have sex according to your rules. :mad:

No need to be defensive, Eva. I didn't graduate from cadet school, so there will be no arrests on my watch.

My intent was to strike up discussion about the two-way nature of attraction. Why does it change based upon how we present ourselves? How do our SO's feel about our change in turn? It is a sensitive topic sure to ruffle some feathers, but I believe it is worth examination.

[Minerva Morgan]

I have considered the fallacy of being a man dressing as a woman to be attractive to men who are attracted only to women; especially when men who are attracted to men would find a man dressed as a woman unattractive. I could expound on the irrationality of such expectations further, but I have never found a realistic explanation. I am definitely not gay (I really LIKE women), and the concept of being gay and dressing as a woman to attract gay men seems futile. Even so, I believe that I can honestly say that, when en femme, a switch does go on. I feel (to some degree) attractive and have a desire to attract; and would respond to expressions of attraction. In drab, I have no illusions about my appearance, and I believe I can honestly say have no attraction to or for men.
All my life I have admired women and lusted after them while admiring their beauty. A major factor of believing a woman to be beautiful is my perception of her degree of intelligence. On the other hand, when I have expressed the opinion, to women, that a certain man was attractive (without the lust); the women strongly disagree with my assessment. So, what do I know?
While I do fantasize about intimacy with a man, while en femme, I have never met a man to whom I find myself drawn to. Perhaps this is because no man has seen me en femme. Also, my crossdressing, until recently, has necessarily been sporadic. This has caused me to face the reality of my bi-sexuality; an issue which had never really arisen before. Since my mind is not fully manacled by strictures of religion or by mindlessly adopted morality (at least not much), I have no difficulty with it.
The intriguing question that is raised here is; if I became intimate with a man while dressed, could I maintain that intimacy when in drab? While I might be able to display a certain polite and withdrawn affection, I would be reluctant to act upon it. In other words, he would be a sex-object, to be used only when I needed him; a distinctly (but not wholly) male attitude. I confess the fault, but cannot be otherwise.
Within these posts I have noted a wide variation from absolutely no sex with men to sex with anyone. I assume each of us are within this rather wide range, and have limitations we can neither explain nor travel beyond. All-in-all, I feel that the statement:

"I feel attracted to guys when I'm dressed en femme, but NEVER when I am in drab. Yuck!"

DOES apply to me. I recognize the unfairness of it, but that is the way I am. As for:

"Sorry, but you only exist as my fantasy. It's great that you are buying me drinks and opening my doors and treating me like a queen, but I can't imagine actually loving you. It's all about me."

yes, I have been given variations of that line, and do not (at least now) bear any hard feelings.
As for attraction to other CD's, I do feel some (well, a lot of you ladies are VERY attractive), but only insofar as they present as women. Since I am probably incapable of performing as a 'top' in such cases, I doubt if I would be of any use to another CD, or that they would be attracted to me; at least as a man. As to whether my SO finds me attractive as a women (and she definitely has no bi tendencies) she has expressed the opinion that, when dressed, I am (solely aesthetically) attractive. As to intimacy, while I love her, her libido has faded to nothing. We have not been intimate for a considerable amount of time (probably a factor relating to my crossdressing) and the question as to whether she 'needs' me as a man seems moot.
I guess, as a man, I am the (wholly heterosexual) grump; and as a woman, I am manipulative (or would like to be); but would hope to be tender about it.
Perhaps I am incorrect in my self-assessment. Sex is addictive, and I may well be capable of any variation. I would recommend that anyone take care as to the protestations they make, as life can be unexpected. As the matter is unlikely to be tested, I can only express my immediate impressions. These indicate to me that the (admittedly irrational) statement that I am only interested in men when dressed is factual and not neccessarily unusual.

Love

Minerva

[Kate Simmons]

I got the point and intention of your thread Karen. No one is trying to judge anyone else really or what their sexual attractions are, real or imagined. All I'm saying is be honest with yourself and your feelings, otherwise you may get something you didn't count on or bargain for.

[Nicole]

All I'm saying is be honest with yourself and your feelings, otherwise you may get something you didn't count on or bargain for.

So true! We dabble in powerful illusions that touch upon some of our deepest feelings. Sometimes the answers we get can be unnerving (and contradictory), but I agree that honesty is the only way to master the confusion inside and out. It takes courage to gaze deeply into that mirror!

[Leah B]

Guys are such pigs..... don't know why women are attracted to them in the first palce... i'm sure not, in either mode....

Love Karren

Y'know, as a guy, I take offense to that. It's not really fair to paint us with the same broad brush. And it's worse when it comes from men. Women back each other up; they speak up when people use stereotypes against them. We're crossdressers, but we (most of us) are still men. Must we denigrate ourselves?

[Melissa A.]

Maybe it's true. Maybe those who say they feel a "switch" when female are full of hogwash. Maybe. But I think the idea that somehow that feeling isn't accompanied with some thought, feelings, and knowledge of the possible inconsistencies and reppurcussions is equally presumptuous.

I don't know if I can control the way I feel. Or if there is some kind of evolution Happening here. My attraction to men, as Melissa, is real. That is honest. Equally honest is that being atracted to men as a man is a feeling that at this point, just isn't there. A few years ago, wanting to be physically intimate with a man was something I never really thought much, or worried much about. Those feelings kinda snuck up on me. Having been intimate with two men, and one tg person, I can say, honestly, that I enjoyed it very much each time and have no regrets. I can also honestly say that at this time, I Do not want a long term, romantic relationship with one. (Although the word "YUCK" does not enter into my thinking.) Does that make me hypocritical? a user? not introspective? less than honest with others? I think the answers to those questions are far from empirical. They are opinions. Every one is entitled to one, or to not have one. I don't think "full of whatever" is a fair opinion.

Do you honestly think, that as a lifetime hetero cd who suddenly found herself attracted to guys, that I haven't given these things a thought? That I don't worry about the inconsistencies? Or hurting other people? C'mon! One would have to be completely oblivious not to. I've thought about what this all means till my head hurts, Ladies! And I am careful to be honest with others about my intentions and expectations. And I try as best I can to be honest with myself, Until I have more information, and can come up with a better answer.

There is alot I don't know for sure. The journey that started a few years ago when the self-acceptance finally came along is a long way from over. I learn more every day, and just as much I'm not sure about. Is my attraction to men as Melissa simply a social phenomenon? A desire to "do what girls do"? Am I latently Homosexual? I DON'T KNOW. That is honest. But to imply that I don't worry or think about it is just as oblivious as girls with feelings like mine are being portrayed as here. Just because you see something as obvious doesn't make that opinion automatically valid and universal truth. Some things, like the earth being round, are fact. I don't know if that opinion is. I know that just saying it doesn't necessarilly make it so. Discounting other's true, honest feelings while saying it ain't really fair. I don't know the answer to this issue, in total. But I'm trying. And I am trying to be nice, and open minded, but my feelings are far from hogwash.

Hugs,

Melissa

[Alice Torn]

Leah, I think Karren was just getting us, to lighten up a little. She has said she enjoys her guy side much, too. As for me, I do seem, to feel a bit like a lady, when dressed, and am turned on, by what I see in the mirror, and do tend, to fantasize being with a certain type of guy, but, as soon as I undress, there goes, all that thinking away! I must admit, it is selfish, self-centered. I have had plenty of guys, wanting to meet up, from personal ads, but, I have not acted on any. Cding is addictive, to me, when I do it, and, alway., that switch goes on, fantasizing having someone enraptured by Lucille, but, the switch always gets turned off, after changing into drab. We are all a little different, in this stuff.

[joann07]

When I'm dressed, I change to female mode (i.e. walk, mannerisms, etc.) and it makes me feel great, but I'm in no way attracted to men.

[5inchHeels]

"If he's not able to fulfill a desire with other t-girls, he will sometimes end up in the embraces of a masculine male. His role is "needing attention" as a woman. .... His attraction to a masculine male is governed by a number of things - but unless he is really homosexual (rare) - his desire is not really "sexual based" - but recognition based. "
http://www.reneereyes.com/Webdocs/rel-witch.htm

The quote and article hit spot on why I can be aroused by men when dressed but am generally not when in drab.

[Kate Simmons]

Karen, once again, thanks for starting this thread. It's a real eye opener as far as I'm concerned. No one said anyone had to share their private thoughts but sometimes it's good to get those feelings out and "on paper" so to speak. Otherwise they are rambling around in our heads and it's good to get them out and address them before they are "acted out" either intentionally or unintentionally. Gives us somewhat of a perspective. It's also good for others to see what kinds of feelings we have and it shows we are not alone with those feelings. Also, don't think that the genetic ladies with SO's that CD are not looking at this with keen interest. It's best we are aware of and address such potential issues before we get into a situation where our feelings overwhealm us and we end up being sorry. Don't say it cannot happen because we are all human and feelings are very powerful and hard to deny sometimes. As I said, we owe it to ourselves to be honest with ourselves concerning our feelings.

[Karren H]

Y'know, as a guy, I take offense to that. It's not really fair to paint us with the same broad brush. And it's worse when it comes from men. Women back each other up; they speak up when people use stereotypes against them. We're crossdressers, but we (most of us) are still men. Must we denigrate ourselves?

Well hang with the guys in the hockey locker room a while and deep down they are all the same..... BELCH........ When a guy on the other team tells our female player that she can b**w him after the game..... I lost all respect for us males.......

Karren

[Melissa A.]

Karen is it the Men you disdain or the pants that they wear.

I like people but do not think about guys in a romantic or sexual way.
If you are thinking about guys only when dressed you are suppresing your sexuallty,most likely due to what society has taught you is acceptable and like some others have alluded to you are not be true to yourself.

Maybe you didn't read my entire post. Or the one 5inchheels just wrote. Or maybe ya read them both and don't care. Being told that you are not being honest with yourself, after carefully explaining how you are, is, well, AAAAAAARGH!

Hugs,

Melissa

[Fab Karen]

Well hang with the guys in the hockey locker room a while and deep down they are all the same..... BELCH........ When a guy on the other team tells our female player that she can b**w him after the game..... I lost all respect for us males.......

Karren

There are plenty of guys who are nothing like that. If you really think all guys are that way, you haven't met many.

[michelleupnorth]

I'm bi so for me it has never been an issue. I would be comfortable with a nice guy or a nice girl. Doesn't matter what I'm wearing

[Leah B]

Well hang with the guys in the hockey locker room a while and deep down they are all the same..... BELCH........ When a guy on the other team tells our female player that she can b**w him after the game..... I lost all respect for us males.......

Karren

What about yourself though. Are you a pig? Or are you an exception? Remember that exceptions are a part of the whole. You've rejected at least some male norms. You've kinda had to, right? You should know as well as any other that a lot of this machismo garbage is false. Peer pressure is a son of a -- ain't it? I'm sure some men believe in this act. Some men buy into it. Some men are along for the ride. But any self-accepting crossdresser knows it's not so easy to cast away this socialization.

Regardless, locker room experiences, even a lifetime of them, does not give you the right to generalize us. I like you Karen. I admire you, even. But I do take it personally when you lump me and every man together because of sex. You don't get to call me a pig until you get to know me.

[Billijo49504]

Not even in my dreams, would i be attracted to men...BJ

[Carin's Wife GG]

I can be blunt and say I am Bi. It took YEARS for me to realize this fact. It was STILL difficult to understand Carin's desire to be at least part time female.

What is wrong with having fantasies about same/opposite sex within a monogomous relationship? I won't speak for Carin (lol, ,lol, inside joke) but if she fantasizes about men OR women why would *I* be threatened? (I have felt threatened in the past so I am not trying whitewash this in any way). We have decent (but not perfect) communication and can now share with one another our fantasies.

One other thing...at some point during the act of lovemaking gender for me becomes irrelevant. It is the person that is there in whatever persona that makes themselves known to me on a very deep level that is of the most importance.



Louise.

[AmandaM]

I think that the CDing, if only for sexual kicks, is one thing. But, if you have TS feelings also, then this sexual attraction could be brought out when you externalize the female inside. In other words, when your femaleness emerges, it may include all facets of the female mind, emotion, sexual identity, etc. In this regard, someone CAN be het when in drab and het when femme.


BTW, I have no desire for men when I'm a man, and yes, I've tried it. I couldn't, er, continue. But enfemme, hmmm...I feel different...I feel....female. I cannot separate the female from the desire. As far as I'm concerned, if you want to think I'm kidding myself and reject these ideas, then oh well, believe as you will.

[Nicole]

Thanks everyone for contributing your 2c to this thread. If anyone feels like a 'hypocrite', it is me. I am not used to having so many strong feelings hit me from all different directions. Feeling hypocritical of myself probably won't help, so I'll just accept for the moment that a bit more experience is all I need to find that magic balance.

Once again, I'm pondering too much in the wee hours. This is the kind of behavior that made it necessary to separate me from the other children in school.

[kerrianna]

I sometimes think we have a tendancy to try to simplify things too much, especially when we try to figure our feelings. The fact is we are incredibly complex creatures and always, as individuals and as a society, are in flux and constant change.

The way we see ourselves, express ourselves, the doors we unlock, willingly or otherwise, all lead to different emotions and experiences. I know when I dress for my landscaping job in my work boots and work clothes, I feel tougher, more masculine and that suits the state of mind I need to be in to do the job efficiently. Dressing en femme has allowed me to reach that very feminine girl which exists inside me, an expression I haven't felt comfortable showing to the outside world before. And part of that girl really likes men, not just because they can make her feel like a girl, but because she JUST DOES. I guess that makes me bi, or whatever. I once told this forum I thought my dog was sexy, and she is. It doesn't mean I'm into beastiality - and it doesn't mean anything about me. It's just that I recognize a certain 'energy' about life. I don't care about labels. What I think is cool about the way I see the world now, now that my inner girl has equal (if not more ) control of the binoculars, is that I'm not judging anyone on what they are. More on who they are and how their behaviour makes me feel. Obviously I'm not going to be enamoured with some of Karren's hockey teammates...but I might be of a few...or of Karren. Or maybe that cute, brave ref who gave Karren a 10 minute misconduct for high heeling.

The point is I am who I am, in all my glory and all my shame, and whoever I find attractive is who they are in all their glory and all their shame. And if we treat each other with respect, compassion and love then what does it matter what anyone (inlcuding that self-critical voice in our heads) thinks or says?

[leggy_tiana]

I believe the attraction towards men when dressed is directly related to our own desire to be treated and accepted as ladies. It is very encouraging and flattering when a man tells me I look femininely attractive. I know that I am doing something right, otherwise, he would not have made that comment. Men have the power to make us feel femininely desirable, which I would think is every girls' need. I think that is at the essense of being more accepting to men when dressed.

[Karren H]

What about yourself though. Are you a pig? Or are you an exception? Remember that exceptions are a part of the whole. You've rejected at least some male norms. You've kinda had to, right? You should know as well as any other that a lot of this machismo garbage is false. Peer pressure is a son of a -- ain't it? I'm sure some men believe in this act. Some men buy into it. Some men are along for the ride. But any self-accepting crossdresser knows it's not so easy to cast away this socialization.

Regardless, locker room experiences, even a lifetime of them, does not give you the right to generalize us. I like you Karen. I admire you, even. But I do take it personally when you lump me and every man together because of sex. You don't get to call me a pig until you get to know me.

Hehehe... Ohhh I'm not like the pig guys at all!!! lol.......



Love Karren

[TxKimberly]

Y'know, as a guy, I take offense to that. It's not really fair to paint us with the same broad brush. And it's worse when it comes from men. Women back each other up; they speak up when people use stereotypes against them. We're crossdressers, but we (most of us) are still men. Must we denigrate ourselves?

Leah,
I don't know how long you have been at this site, but if you stick around a while and take a look at most of Karen's posts (the gurl that posted that comment) you will find that she was cursed with a sense of humor and sarcasm. We've tried to have it removed but it grew back. We've tried an intervention - she didn't show up! We found her weeks later hitch hiking through the outback in Australia. She had taken her truck with her, but when we found her she mumbled something about locking her keys in it.
Anyway, while I don't speak for Karen, it's a fair bet it was just a joke and just a touch of self depreciating humor, so I wouldn't be TOO offended about it.
Kim

[RuthieER]

I'm bi so for me it has never been an issue. I would be comfortable with a nice guy or a nice girl. Doesn't matter what I'm wearing

I can relate to this. When I was 16 I discovered two things at about the same time, but both quite separate at first. One that I was bisexual; there were some guys that I wanted to make love to me as much as I wanted to make love to some girls. The other was crossdressing. I very soon combined these two new discoveries so that my attraction to men was part and parcel of my desire to dress and look like a woman. There was probably a psychological rationalization process going on: I might be attracted to men, but, since I was a being so as a woman, it was still heterosexual, and therefore it was OK. At that time, bisexuality was little understood, and often viewed by gays as "fence-sitting"; an easy out for people who were too homophobic or ashamed to admit they were really gay. It was very confusing for me, because I knew I was also attracted to women, so I wasn't gay. That made my feelings of being a total weirdo even more accuute, and it took me years to rid myself of the shame and guilt and fear surrounding my gender identity and my sexual orrientation. Whew! Anyway, I'm now very comfortable as Bi CD. But it is hard to find a man I am attracted to, who is attracted to me as a CD, is comfortable with his own sexuality, and is a nice guy as well!

Ruthie

[Angie G]

I have a lot of guy frinds but I don't want sex with them if I in guy or girl mode I have wondered what it's like but no intrest in finding out
Angie