case study

[kittypw GG]

This is an atempt to portray a possible CD vs SO situation. Please be objective in your observations if you wish to respond. This is an exercise to possibly bring some insight into where each person is comming from and how to find some common ground. Neither side is good or bad.

CD: When not crossdressing the cd is moody, introverted, quick to anger, not talkative. Personal human interaction is replaced with surfing the internet. When the cd has free time to spend with the SO and if crossdressing is not suggested, the CD finds some activity that does not include their SO and seldom suggests activities that do not involve crossdressing. The CD seems to have no interest in suggested activities like going to a movie or junk shopping unless the focus is on finding dresses or shoes for themselves. The CD only reluctantly participates in activities that the SO finds important or are obligations to family or friends such as weddings, annaversaries etc. Get togethers with work friends is not very important but the CD will go reluctantly and bring it up as a proof that he participates in the SO's life. The CD feels that the SO controls the crossdressing because the SO's participation is crucial in the eyes of the CD.

SO: When not crossdressing the SO is trying to fill free time with activities that promote friendship and create memories for the CD and the SO to share. Family and friend obligations fall to the SO to arrange and place on a calander. The SO tries to find time to interact with friends and wishes desperately that the CD will also interact and develope friendships with non CD people. When interaction wth CD couples arrises the SO participates willingly. The SO is enthusiastic about participating in the crossdressing and even accompanies the CD to outings with other CD's in different situations. (halloween party, dinner at a mainstream resturant, and clubbing). Over time when the SO feels that the enthusiasim for non-cd activities is less than she puts out for cd activities the SO becomes hurt and angry that the enthusiasim is not reciprocated and starts to slow down the participation in cd activities. The SO starts to feel like an object only necessary when fullfilling the CD's desires.

Questions to ponder:

How do the CD and the SO find some common ground?

If the SO understands how important crossdressing is to the CD, how does the SO convey to the CD that all of the other things in thier life are equally as important to the SO?

Will the CD always consider it as a form of control over the CD by the SO?

If caring and enthusiasim are not forthcomming from the CD for activities that are important to the SO how will the SO ever shed the feeling of being an object?

Is it possible for the CD/SO couple to have a sucessful partnership and maintain the current attitudes given in the senarios?

This is an exercise to attempt to gain empathy and understanding for each point of view. I think that many CD couples can relate to this thread so please respond objectivly so that others main gain some higher understanding about where their spouses are comming from. I thank you all in advance for your insightful responses. Kitty

[JoanFlores]

I have found your words to be very close to my situation. Yes, my SO does plan our activities for us. Yes, my SO wishes that I be happy, but is at this time not very open to give me the freedom to CD as I need to do.

The only common ground at this time are activities like visiting family, buying groceries and being together, but not while I am CD.

She knows that CD is important to me, but does not want to discuse it with me, so I have to make do by myself.

As I stated, you have some very good points on how we(CD) thinks, I will spend the day pondering more on your questions, I am a little happy and sad, but, and wil continue trying to help my SO to better understand me.

[battybattybats]

Hmmm interesting.

If the SO understands how important crossdressing is to the CD, how does the SO convey to the CD that all of the other things in thier life are equally as important to the SO?

I'd suggest direct plain cut-to-the-point statements. Also, ask 'why' (tone is crucial when it's done though). Perhaps even frame it in a 'talking about your emotions is a feminine thing to do' discussion to help them learn to slowly open up. Many guys (skirts notwithstanding) are thoroughly emotionally repressed and have very little emotional vocabulary or self-awareness so that might be a slow process.

One thing I find is that when forced to hold my tongue about dressing or have to repress myself the last thing in the world that I'd want to do is go near womens clothing departments/stores. It's just too painful. Sort of like making a diabetic help shop for sweets. Lots of social events can be a nasty and cruel reminder of what I'm locked away from too and withdrawing, isolating oneself is sometimes the only way to cope.

The CD may feel less controlled if things are put as requests rather than demands. An appeal to fairness would probably work if it appeals to the notion of an opt-in bargain or trade. Like 'I'll go to this with you if you go to that with me' but not 'I went to that with you so you should want to go to this with me'.

[Leah B]

One thing I find is that when forced to hold my tongue about dressing or have to repress myself the last thing in the world that I'd want to do is go near womens clothing departments/stores. It's just too painful. Sort of like making a diabetic help shop for sweets.

Even worse, it can be hard to be out and about around women sometimes for the same reason. I remember this customer that came into the restaurant wearing the most beautiful sundress and it just made me bitter that I couldn't.

[Mitch23]

It seems to me that the CD is controlling the relationship by using crossdressing as an emotional battering ram. His life is ruled by his activities and he expects others to toe the line. I think that it has become a life fetish and he probably needs to get some kind of therapy in order to add balance to his life.

Its probably a danger that many of us face and i can certainly recognise elements in me.

mitch

[susie evans]

these are intresting points cd/so relations are like many others and are also more sensetive and a veriaty of things come to play honesty, the cd and so have to be open minded with each other NO single focused agendas ,balance has to be achieved respect, and very good communications learn to listen to each other and be sensetive and thoughtfull of the other person when they are trying to talk about important subjects to them family is the key to most GG'S as should be to most people with out them we have very little this has worked pretty good for me for the last 35 years

susie

[kittypw GG]

Hmmm interesting.



I'd suggest direct plain cut-to-the-point statements. Also, ask 'why' (tone is crucial when it's done though). Perhaps even frame it in a 'talking about your emotions is a feminine thing to do' discussion to help them learn to slowly open up. Many guys (skirts notwithstanding) are thoroughly emotionally repressed and have very little emotional vocabulary or self-awareness so that might be a slow process.

One thing I find is that when forced to hold my tongue about dressing or have to repress myself the last thing in the world that I'd want to do is go near womens clothing departments/stores. It's just too painful. Sort of like making a diabetic help shop for sweets. Lots of social events can be a nasty and cruel reminder of what I'm locked away from too and withdrawing, isolating oneself is sometimes the only way to cope.

The CD may feel less controlled if things are put as requests rather than demands. An appeal to fairness would probably work if it appeals to the notion of an opt-in bargain or trade. Like 'I'll go to this with you if you go to that with me' but not 'I went to that with you so you should want to go to this with me'.

You bring up some good points. The diabetic analogy is a good one. The oposite could be true for the SO. The crossdressing becomes the object of disdain because the SO feels forced to put the emphasis on the crossdressing over her own desires to socialize and participate in family activities and obligations. By isolating himself the CD is performing a passive agressive form of punishment in the eyes of the SO.

I am guilty of the "I went to that with you so you should want to go to this with me" statment. Us SO's really don't want to control our partners. We do things that we don't like willingly without dramma and bad body language and figure that if our spouses love us they will return the favor. I personally want a partner not a person that I control or mother.

I whole heartedly agree with your first statement that tone of voice can make or break any conversation. The crossdressing issue is such an emotional one for both parties that it is sort of hard to remain calm and maintain an agreeable tone of voice. Things can degrage in an instant as we all know. I also agree with the statement that men don't really have the emotional vocabulary with which to express their feelings. So's can understand that especially if they seem to attempt to express their feelings without yelling or becoming emotional. I think that dramma and arguments are the alternative for a person who finds it difficult to verbally express their feelings.

Good stuff so far. I not only hope that this discussion will help me but many others as well. Anyone else have any thoughts? Kitty

[jenniferj]

Wowsers! Do I dare jump in?

You have asked for objectivity, but you have presented only half of the story. How would he/she describe the problem? Obviously you are hurting - and angry - and more confused than you probably realize. I don't see a single positive reference to your SO in the writeup - surely there is something special and nice about him (and her) that makes you want to be together?

My guess is that you are tremendously good sport who grits her teeth and participates willingly in something she doesn't like very much. But I am sensing that you also do it "from a distance" and let the SO know in subtle (or maybe not so subtle) ways that she "owes you" for it. So the times you spend with her are perhaps less satifying for her, in that they don't offer the relief and comfort and acceptance she most probably is seeking. And those same times are less satisfying for you, because at some level you think you should be building "points" for times in which he to do what you want. At some level she probably resents this, and it carries through in his sulleness and isolation. Wow - is that deep or what?

There are two (or more) ways to solve the problem - the simple way is to create some sort of mutual scoring system that you can both agree to. You get five points for taking her shopping at Vickies, and he gets 3 points for spending an evening with your sister and obnoxious brother-in-law. The negotiations for point values could be a lot of fun. At the end of the month you balance the accounts, and at some (superficial) level, you both feel that your needs have been fairly met. A lot of long term, happy marriages are based on such barter systems, with any number of different issues being negotiated.

A deeper (and probably more satisfying) solution would be based on a commitment to understanding and acceptance. This one is much, much harder and much,much,much less common. You can read a large number of threads in this forum about disapproving and deceived wives, but there are also a few truely wonderful storys of love and happiness. Whether you two can achieve the latter state is entirely up to each of you as well as both of you together. He/she must overcome the selfish and self-centered attitudes that seem inherent to CDs (there are hundreds of justifiable reasons for this trait, but it is clearly rampant among us - just read the forum ). You must overcome the cultural (and probably sexual) expectations of a "perfect" husband. And you need to trust each other, without judgement. Simple enough?

Hopefully, you'll succeed togther and in the future you'll look back at some incident and not be able to remember whether she was dressed or he wasn't when it happened.

I wish you two the very best - I love to read the happy stories!

jj

[jenniferj]

A second thought, if I may.

In case I seemed judgemental about GG SOs who don't completely understand and accept their CD guys, I didn't me to be. It is a very difficult concept to embrace.

If you look at the many threads in the forum about almost getting caught or how to hide what we do, it is clear that many of us CD guys don't understand and completely accept ourselves either.

Please be gentle and kind - most of us are hurting more than we let on.

jj

[kittypw GG]

Jennifer,
I was attempting to portray a situation that many SO's of CD's find themselves in. This is not my story alone. I am attemting to gain some insight from CD's and to hopefully lend some understanding of the thoughts and feelings of a SO.

You don't know me but let me tell you you couldn't be farther from the truth about me being a "good sport". I try to have fun in every situation that I find myself in. I am a people person and can find some common ground with just about anyone.

I do sort of like your scoring card suggestion as a means to put "perceptions" about the lack of participation in the others interest to rest. I might use it as a learning tool rather than a life philosophy though.
Thanks for your comments
Kitty

[Stephenie S]

OMG Kitty, my immediate thought is no, this will never work. There is just no hint of cooperation from the CDer. Marriage is a compromise and without compromise you will never get it to work at all. My quick judgment of this relationship is that it's headed down the road to disolution, bigtime. So no, it's not possible for this CD/SO coouple to have a sucessful partnership if the current attitudes are maintained.

And there's the key, right there. It looks to me like you are the managing director of this situation, and I would say that if you can lay down the law, i.e. provide a framework that demands an equal participation from both parties, you may be able to save it. Although you may not want to do it, it may be time for those words we all dread, "It's my way or the highway". At the present time it seems that those are the words you are receiving from the CDer even though they are not really being spoken, only acted.

I think that CDing is not relevant to this issue at all. This is just a very one-sided selfish relationship and it can't work this way. Substitute my favorite, "fishing" for CDing and you have described a fishing fanatic who is working hard to destroy his marriage. Substitute any activity that you want here, and taken to the extreme you describe, with the thoughtlessness and inconsideration you describe, and you have a picture of someone hell bent on dissoving a relationship. This is not to say some relationships do work under these conditions. We have all heard of the "fishing widow", and I know one couple were the husband is a policeman, and I truly don't know if the man even exists. In the 10 years I have known them, I have NEVER even seen him. He is always on the job, or training, or hanging out with his buds, or, if home, he's sleeping. He could be immaginary for all I know, except that he has fathered two children. I know another couple in which the man builds Kentucky long rifles for a hobby and I never see him either except at meal times.

I think that waiting for Mr CDer to fix his behavior here is a lost cause. Unless you are able to set some rules, and rules with teeth, I don't see how this will work. Perhaps the threat of absolute refusal to alow ANY CDing at all in return for FULL participation in the relationship would work, but it's a little late to hold out much hope. As I said, I think CDing is a non issue here. It's the refusal to participate in a relationship that's that's causing the trouble here. Fix that, and the CDing won't matter.

JMHO dear,

Stephenie

[Karren H]

God... I'd hate to have that life... Sounds more like crossdressing isn't the whole problem... In my opinion..

I think the CD should figure out if he got married and had a family for a reason... And if it still holds true then its the family first and he needs to learn to work his crossdressing around the needs of the family not make them suffer because of it.. In my opinion..

Karren

[kittypw GG]

As I said, I think CDing is a non issue here. It's the refusal to participate in a relationship that's that's causing the trouble here. Fix that, and the CDing won't matter.

JMHO dear,

Stephenie

Stephanie, this is the head of the nail. Where does this come from?

Behind many total narcissist you will find an overbearing, enabeling, do everything for and give everything to her kids mother. When parents do this to their children they grow up lacking the skills it takes to gain balance, have empathy for others and give of themselves. They grow up with a false perception of their importance in the world at large. They have trouble expressing themselves, they have very little self confidence because they never needed to, mom did everything, and they have very low self esteem.

Just because you grow up this way does not mean that you can't change, it just takes some work because most of us learned these skills as we were growing up. My own mother tried to make us dependant on her but with my personality I just couldn't allow that to happen. My sister is a victim though and and has trouble being independent to this day and she has a PhD.

Self acceptance and balance is something that I feel strongly about. You can't give that to someone though so what does a SO do in the mean time. Do you throw in the towel? Do you keep trying to be heard until you finally wear out? It is a matter of empathizing with your partner, giving , receiving love, sharing a life but staying true to yourself. Kitty

[jenniferj]

Kitty,

Oh dear - I fear I've offended you. That was the farthest thing from my intentions! I meant the "good sport" in a very positive way; if this is indeed your personal story, it seems that you are very generous and giving person. I would certainly love to have you as a friend, no matter how I'm dressed.

I do hear some frustration or anger in your description of the situation, and I understand why that would be so. As described, he doesn't seem like much fun to be with. Is he happier as she? Is she happy with herself dressed, or does she wish she had more hair, or could shave, or had real breasts, or whatever? Does she want/need more girl time? Would she be happier 24/7?

I'm not suggesting this as a solution, but rather as an avenue to understanding. If she wants more time, but can't have it - what is the constraining factor?

Here are lots of other things I don't know:

Is your involvement something recent after years of hiding and repression on his part? How old is he? how long has he been dressing? Is he just going through the "pink haze" phase? I love that term - I read it someplace here, but don't know whom to credit for it.

How did you find out? Does he feel guilty about the girl time, and how it affects you? There is a lot of potential for self-loathing in this activity; is he transferring his own feelings of confusion onto you?

How long has this been a problem? Weeks, months, years, decades? It may just take some time (probably longer that we'd expect) for it to find its level.

One more thought. Are you reasonably sure that the excessive crossdressing is the cause of the problem and not the result of something else entirely? Dressing up as somebody else is an awfully good way to avoid other problems in your life. I'm not suggesting that he is a crossdresser because of some traumatic event or problem, but rather that it's any easy place to hide when other things are bothering him.

Please, please, please accept my good wishes and admiration. My favorite person in the whole world is still having trouble with the same issues, and she has had decades to adjust.

jj

[Carin's Wife GG]

Wowsers! Do I dare jump in?

<snip>

saved me a huge long post. Thank you!


Louise.

[VeronicaKate]

Wow, I think that the CD needs to slow down and rember they are a very lucky individual to be loved and understood by their SO, not many CD are as fortunate. If CD is takeing up that much space running through the sysnapses, CD may want to revisit who realy matters. Maybe even find some type of counseling to get her behavior under control. Marriage and relationships are based on love, trust, understanding, and a lot of compromise on both sides.

[Carin's Wife GG]

This is an atempt to portray a possible CD vs SO situation. Please be objective in your observations if you wish to respond. This is an exercise to possibly bring some insight into where each person is comming from and how to find some common ground. Neither side is good or bad.

is there bitterness on the part of the SO? If so that is palpable to the CDer without the SO or the CDer even consciously knowing it and a deathknell for future understanding IMO.


the CDer sounds like a most selfish human being and the SO the long suffering martyr. Not exactly balanced and so it is unfair to ask for an objective response. The original post is not objective in ANY way.


Louise.

[kittypw GG]

Wow Louise I didn't expect to see another gg being so negative. One would think that you would have a sympathetic pov. I asked for objectivity but maybe I should have asked for people to not be mean. I know for a fact that many SO's of CD's have expirenced this situation. I thought that there could be an honest discussion about how the cd might feel controlled by the so and how the so might feel shut out and used by the cd. I thought that perhaps it might help some of us come to a better understanding. I understand that you have a great and wonderful relationsip with your hubby but you don't have to be hurtful to others who may not have that in their relationship.
Kitty

[wifeofsissy GG]

I read bitterness and anger from kitty's original post. Of course not all situation are the same. I've been with my husband for almost 2 decades and although I new for almost the whole time, I choose to "reject it" and "control him". 3 years ago, after sitting together and without pointing fingers and blame, asked of course millions of questions and I realized the "hell & agony" I had been putting him tru by not letting him be "himself".

We than started to "play" together. My husband is very comfortable in he's sexuality and mostly does it as a "fetish". I trust him and I'm soo in love with him. I KNOW this as brought us closer to each other. We have fun together. I love him as a husband and "en femme". I love his feminity when he dresses. I ENJOY it. I buy things for her, give her pointer's

I give him the freedom that he needs. We have kids, and strongly beleive it is between the two of us and no one else's. That said, sometimes it makes it difficult for us to "play together" so I make sure I go out for an afternoon and take the kids with me while I leave him at home and he can dress. I always give him the time we will get back, so there's no risk in "getting caught" OR we make plans just the 2 of us for a weekend get away in another city......very exciting!! We also do it at night while the kids are sleeping. I also go away for 2 weeks in the summer with the kids and make sure it's during he's "days off" so if he wants to, he can stay dressed all day!! We have a very strong relationship and communicate a lot.

I beleive lots of GG's are doing it to "please" their CD husband and it creates lots of anger and bitterness. I do it cause I ENJOY it. I don't believe love keeps tab's: I did it for you, you do it for me. It's not fair to make someone do and be someone they are not. There's lots of things my husband don't enjoy and I do. We do things "alone" and "together", dressed or not. Life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, if you cannot "forgive""forget" and move on , than "move out". I'm not saying this applies to you cause I don't know your situation. But that's my opinion. Life is too short to be angry and bitter and that's what this post sounds like to me.

Sincerely,
Wifeofsissy GG

[MJ]

i think kitty is trying to come up with a common ground. so we can all understand how to deal with CD issues , it must be the hardest thing a woman as to deal with , then when she give us an inch we take a mile and can't understand why our S.O are upset
it must be painful for the wife to see her man in a dress or understand why he wants to go out en femme even worse want the S.O to go out with them and do this almost over night
what if your S.O wanted to dress as a guy ? try making love with the thought of making out with a guy in your head how would you feel then ..
we need to find balance and understanding how can we do that if all we do is take take take .. there as to be some give as well

[Carin's Wife GG]

I read bitterness and anger. Of course not all situation are the same.

I agree and did not mean to be mean in my responses.

Wow Louise I didn't expect to see another gg being so negative.

I have been the long suffering martyr in the past. carin has been the withdrawn, everything revolves around CDing husband. I KNOW this story. I have lived it! I was trying to be honest not hurtful and for that I apologize.



Louise.

[kittypw GG]

I beleive lots of GG's are doing it to "please" their CD husband and it creates lots of anger and bitterness. I do it cause I ENJOY it. I don't believe love keeps tab's: I did it for you, you do it for me. It's not fair to make someone do and be someone they are not. There's lots of things my husband don't enjoy and I do. We do things "alone" and "together", dressed or not. Life is too short. If you don't enjoy it, if you cannot "forgive""forget" and move on , than "move out". I'm not saying this applies to you cause I don't know your situation. But that's my opinion. Life is too short to be angry and bitter and that's what this post sounds like to me.

Sincerely,
Wifeofsissy GG

You make a good point, doing something you don't enjoy does cause bitterness and anger. I myself enjoy my hubby's cd'ing I just don't want to enjoy it as often as he does. My hubby is also free to cd at his leasure since he is mostly at home all day alone. He does the laundry so I would never know if he is taking advantage of his freedom or how often.

Both people in the relationship have to meet somewhere in the middle.
What is the key thing to understand about eachother to get to a point of mutual sastifaction do you think?

I think communication is paramount. Doing the isolation thing only lends for misunderstand and misinterpretation of the reasons behind it. Just a thought.
Kitty

[AmberTG]

I personally think that Stephenie may be the closest to this situation. It is the obsession with doing what you want and ignoring the desires of the other person that causes most of the problems, in my opinion. I personally know 2 men who ended up divorced because they would rather spend time working on their model railroad then spending time with their wife. When anything becomes an obsession, you better hope that your SO shares the enthusiasm for that activity or you'll be heading down a one way street to being alone, unless you can step back from it and realise that your SO didn't marry you to be alone. I know this from personal experience, I killed my first marriage that way, she wanted me to partisipate in some of her outdoor activitys, but I was too busy to take the time to be with her. She was lonely for a long time and finally found someone else to share her activitys with. My fault! that was 10 years ago and it still is a regret for me. It certainly wouldn't have hurt me to take some time and go for a walk in the woods with her, but I was too wrapped up in my workaholic nature, and my long standing depression that I didn't know was depression.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[Kate Simmons]

This whole thing can become a ravaging monster if not checked. It becomes a power struggle where there are no winners and which leaves both partners with hurt and bitterness. Trust me, I know. I have to cite what Karren brought up. Why did the CDer get married to begin with and possibly have a family if he did not want to share his life with his SO? Obviously, he loved her of course, probably very much so the way a man loves a woman. A man, however, with conflicting feelings and emotions that co-erce him to act on those feelings in a very demonstrative way with no deference to the feelings of his beloved SO.
This society is indeed a tough one. Men are supposed to be strong, confident and self-assured. This is a lot of pressure sometimes and while most of us do enjoy being a man and everything that goes along with it, our softer feelings come up and are very hard to deal with sometimes because we are supposed to be "tough guys". Yeah, right! I cry more at weddings and sad movies than my wife ever did and get very emotional.I cried for joy with my wife when all our babies were born and I mourned with her when she lost one. This was a true partnership and those years and times are golden to me.
Still, undrneath it all, there is a nagging feeling that we, personally, are not complete. I think some of us are born this way or at least pre-disposed to it and maybe childhood enhances it and we get envious that girls seem to be treated preferentially and we wanted the same thing. I felt that way and there was no way you were going to knock that out of my head. So, why get married? Quite simple really, she was a woman, I was a man, seems simple enough, for most people anyway.
When I first came out to her two years after we were married, we had a lot of discussions. She tried to convince me that there is nothing "glamouous" about being a woman no doubt with the physiological effects in mind but I just couldn't see it. All I could see was the "glitter" and prettiness of it which merely adorn the body of a person with a beautiful spirit. Most of us unknowingly want to emulate that spirit but all our obvious physical efforts pale in comparison at best.
Back to Kitty's topic, we know what the issues are and we are a couple. We love each other and want to make this work, despite the fact that it does not appear to be "normal". We need to talk to each other, work with each other. We are obligated to think of the other person and not just ourselves, especially if we are in a committed relationship and most especially if we have a family. It's not about "me", its about "we". Love and mutual respect goes a long way and certainly covers a multitude of sins. I know I preach a lot about respecting one another for the person we are inside and it's no different here, more so in a relationship.
It all looks good on paper, my friends. When we get down the nitty gritty raw bones things that motivate us to do what we do, do we pass muster? Does it really work? That is what shows who we truely are as a person and what is really in our hearts. The whole is truely greater than the sum of it's parts in this case. The results depend on us and our sincere loving efforts.

[Carin's Wife GG]

I personally think that Stephenie may be the closest to this situation. It is the obsession with doing what you want and ignoring the desires of the other person that causes most of the problems, in my opinion. I personally know 2 men who ended up divorced because they would rather spend time working on their model railroad then spending time with their wife. When anything becomes an obsession, you better hope that your SO shares the enthusiasm for that activity or you'll be heading down a one way street to being alone, unless you can step back from it and realise that your SO didn't marry you to be alone. I know this from personal experience, I killed my first marriage that way, she wanted me to partisipate in some of her outdoor activitys, but I was too busy to take the time to be with her. She was lonely for a long time and finally found someone else to share her activitys with. My fault! that was 10 years ago and it still is a regret for me. It certainly wouldn't have hurt me to take some time and go for a walk in the woods with her, but I was too wrapped up in my workaholic nature, and my long standing depression that I didn't know was depression.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

when the TG/CDer has a partner that is not fully on board and is trying to control the CDing situation. I know this because I was this!


Louise.