Your Opinions Please Everyone

[RevMoonSerpent]

I'm going to try and make this short. Was talking to mom again about my being trans and all the stuff that go's with it more specifically the pants packing. She didn't seem flipped out about it but, on the packing topic in reference to my husband she said,"and he lets you do that?"
I said, "Yes he does. I've talked to him about the stuff and he supports me and doesn't really care what people think when we are out. Doesn't matter to him if I'm seen as a boy or a girl when we are out in public."
Her reply was, "Then he's not a man." We were in the car and I didn't want to go into an argument so I just let the conversation drop but, it had me thinking what would make her say that or think that he wasn't a man.
I still haven't been able to think of a reason so I'm asking everyone what they think about it.

[Holly]

Wow... what an awful thing to say. The only thing I can think of is your mom may think that because it doesn't bother your husband that you pack, that he is somehow surrendering his masculinity to you. Sounds silly to me, though.

[Bobbie cd]

I suspect that her comment may have been rooted in the sort of endemic homophobia that older generations of western culture have been steeped in for so long. If so, you may indeed have an uphill battle on your hand to get to see it otherwise. I wish you the best of luck in navigating these tough waters.

BTW, kudos to your husband for placing support for you above his own masculine ego!

[dancinginthedark]

hmmm I just took a peek at your age to try to get an idea of your mum's age too. I'm guessing she's bout my age! OMG do I feel old now.

At first I thought she had to be much older to have that kind of mind set. Like Holly I thought she might have thought your husband surrendered his masculinity to you by letting you play the male role instead of a more submissive female role. But jeez she isn't a product of the 1940's-50's I'm assuming so that makes no sense at all.

Best guess is she is attacking what she considers a weak spot for you [love] by aiming her attack at your spouse. Maybe she feels that to attack directly would be too obvious and result in a counter-attack from you. That you would get defensive and argue with her? Or maybe she feel you would just blow off any comment directly aimed at you. But by coming at you from left field she could throw you off. The attack might not make you doubt yourself as a TG person and your right to be yourself but aimed to have you second guess your treatment of your husband. See how that works? You aren't treating your husband poorly, but she seemed set on having you wonder if you are somehow doing just that. Savvy? Sneaky way to manipulate you though.

I must add that I don't know the lady in question & this pure conjecture on my part based on some of the people I've dealt with in life.

dancin

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

As others said, it's homophobia at work.

Society often has a false equivalence that "unmanly = womanly = gay." (Or vice versa.) So by her logic, if he doesn't care that you're packing and/or seen as a male couple, he must gay, ergo he must not be a "real" man.

It's essentially of the flip side of people assuming MTF CDs must be gay because we wear women's clothing.

[CaptLex]

I suspect that her comment may have been rooted in the sort of endemic homophobia that older generations of western culture have been steeped in for so long.

Of course, I don't know your mom or how she feels about homosexuality, but this is the first thing that came to my mind too.

[kerrianna]

hmmm I just took a peek at your age to try to get an idea of your mum's age too. I'm guessing she's bout my age! OMG do I feel old now.

At first I thought she had to be much older to have that kind of mind set. Like Holly I thought she might have thought your husband surrendered his masculinity to you by letting you play the male role instead of a more submissive female role. But jeez she isn't a product of the 1940's-50's I'm assuming so that makes no sense at all.

Best guess is she is attacking what she considers a weak spot for you [love] by aiming her attack at your spouse. Maybe she feels that to attack directly would be too obvious and result in a counter-attack from you. That you would get defensive and argue with her? Or maybe she feel you would just blow off any comment directly aimed at you. But by coming at you from left field she could throw you off. The attack might not make you doubt yourself as a TG person and your right to be yourself but aimed to have you second guess your treatment of your husband. See how that works? You aren't treating your husband poorly, but she seemed set on having you wonder if you are somehow doing just that. Savvy? Sneaky way to manipulate you though.

I must add that I don't know the lady in question & this pure conjecture on my part based on some of the people I've dealt with in life.

dancin

Wow, that is some sneaky thinking there Mae. Are you SURE it's just conjecture? Wouldn't be one of your tactics now would it?

Actually, that makes a lot of sense the way you described it.

Bottom line though... mom said a bad thing, she should be ashamed of herself.
I'd be furious at my mom is she denigrated my partner like that, even if she didn't really mean it.

[Abraxas]

My personal opinion on the matter is that if your husband is secure enough with himself to not mind whether people see you as a guy or girl when you're with him in public, that makes him more of a man, not less.
But yeah, probably homophobia at work there. Urgh.

[dancinginthedark]

Wow, that is some sneaky thinking there Mae. Are you SURE it's just conjecture? Wouldn't be one of your tactics now would it?

Actually, that makes a lot of sense the way you described it.

Bottom line though... mom said a bad thing, she should be ashamed of herself.
I'd be furious at my mom is she denigrated my partner like that, even if she didn't really mean it.

Actually it's my mother's tactics Kerrianna. One of life's little lessons I had to learn early on is that family can be crueler than strangers ever dreamed of being. Family knows us well enough to really cut to the quick.

[Taylor105]

My personal opinion on the matter is that if your husband is secure enough with himself to not mind whether people see you as a guy or girl when you're with him in public, that makes him more of a man, not less.
But yeah, probably homophobia at work there. Urgh.

Yeah, what Benny said. He is very secure in his masculinity. I think maybe mom is attacking him because she doesn't want to attack you. I mean, I would get really upset at something my mom did but I would find a way to blame Karen for it or something because I was afraid if I directly accused my mom she might abandon me. I know that sounds dumb but she may be saying stuff about him to indirectly offend you. I just love how she said "and he LETS you do that" I would have a field day with that statement alone. Noone ALLOWS me to do anything. I do what I want. lol I'm sorry if this made no sense. I'm on Lortab right now and my brain is a bit fuzzy. Hugs to you though. I know how it feels to have a parent not be totally accepting.

[pocoyo]

My personal opinion on the matter is that if your husband is secure enough with himself to not mind whether people see you as a guy or girl when you're with him in public, that makes him more of a man, not less.
But yeah, probably homophobia at work there. Urgh.

I think that was quite rude what your mom said. Some people just don't understand or have a bit strange views I guess.

[SIZE="1"]yeah i know my english sucks today but i dont care.[/SIZE]

[MJ]

rev
you did the right thing in not saying nothing. your mom does not understand
you have a great man there & you know it .. sometimes it's better to not open that can of worms
hugs

[Felix]

Oh dear my first gut reaction was that she thought he might be gay but on reflection she sounds like she does not see how positive he is being towards you sounds like ya got a good one there xx Felix

[ZenFrost]

It sounds like you have a great husband, but that your mother is somewhat intolerant. Just because your husband accepts you as you are doesn't make him any less of a man. Try not to think to much into it, it's best not to let things like that bother you. What matters is that you have support from where you need it most (your husband).

[Tristan]

I agree with the homophobia being first thing to pop into my head.

[Dasein9]

Rev. Mel, the first thing I want to say is this: Your mom must be a pretty amazing woman, overall. She did make you, and I think I speak for all of us when I say we're glad of that!

In this case, though, I do think she dropped the ball. First, as Taylor pointed out, it's not a matter of "letting." Second, if your husband supports you and loves you, then he is a "real man." A real man is strong -- and that means strong enough to value you over convention.

It sounds to me as though she's in the process of getting her head around the trans issues, and a lot of ideas and notions must be going through her head. Some of these might well slip out of the mouth. Some of these, she may keep, and others may pass. It's a process, not an on/off switch.

If we were in the same room and discussing this over a cup of tea or a glass of beer, my next question would be, "How consistent is this with her usual way of thinking?" It sounds like this comment hit you hard because a comment like that is not characteristic of your mother. If that's the case, then chances are good that she'll come around eventually. But if her worldview includes homophobia, then your being trans is likely to be much more difficult for her.

[RevMoonSerpent]

First I want to thank everyone for the replies they have been a great help.

Originally posted by dancinginthedark GG
At first I thought she had to be much older to have that kind of mind set. Like Holly I thought she might have thought your husband surrendered his masculinity to you by letting you play the male role instead of a more submissive female role. But jeez she isn't a product of the 1940's-50's I'm assuming so that makes no sense at all.

I think this might be part of it. My moms situation is a little strange. She is the youngest of three and her birth was a bit of a surprise. My grandmother was in her 40's when she had my mom. Just to give you a take on the age span of the mentality of how she was raised. My mom is 59 and my aunt is 79. My real grandparents were dead way before I was born and with the age difference my aunt became my grandmother. My brother and I even call her granny. So she was raised in a real old fashioned way.

Originally posted by Das
"How consistent is this with her usual way of thinking?" It sounds like this comment hit you hard because a comment like that is not characteristic of your mother.

You're right it isn't characteristic of her. My mother has never judged an outsider. Homosexuality doesn't bother her, transgender doesn't bother her, even other alternative lifestyles for ex. Wicca don't bother her. She reads up on everything and tries to understand others points of view and any friends that she has that fit into any alternative category, she supports 100%. I think it might just be the thought that she doesn't mind what other people do and she'll support them she just doesn't want it in her family.

[kerrianna]

Rev. Mel, the first thing I want to say is this: Your mom must be a pretty amazing woman, overall. She did make you, and I think I speak for all of us when I say we're glad of that!

In this case, though, I do think she dropped the ball. First, as Taylor pointed out, it's not a matter of "letting." Second, if your husband supports you and loves you, then he is a "real man." A real man is strong -- and that means strong enough to value you over convention.

It sounds to me as though she's in the process of getting her head around the trans issues, and a lot of ideas and notions must be going through her head. Some of these might well slip out of the mouth. Some of these, she may keep, and others may pass. It's a process, not an on/off switch.

If we were in the same room and discussing this over a cup of tea or a glass of beer, my next question would be, "How consistent is this with her usual way of thinking?" It sounds like this comment hit you hard because a comment like that is not characteristic of your mother. If that's the case, then chances are good that she'll come around eventually. But if her worldview includes homophobia, then your being trans is likely to be much more difficult for her.

sighhhhhhhhhhhh! what a man! smart as well as handsome.

[Kieron Andrew]

sighhhhhhhhhhhh! what a man! smart as well as handsome.

POC!!! shes lusting after a new man!!

[kerrianna]

POC!!! shes lusting after a new man!!

Nah, he's not so new.

And he says he doesn't like girls.

[SIZE="1"]not that I let that stop me from trying. [/SIZE]

[pocoyo]

Ha ha what I want to know is how does Kerrianna know that Das is handsome when she's never seen his face?

He does have a very attractive air about him and neck though I have to say...

[Spoofehness]

Some people just are conditioned to believe certain things. There have been plenty of homophobes who think that gay men aren't men, and since your husband wouldn't mind being seen in public with a woman who is convincingly dressed as a man at the risk of being assumed to be gay, it could be the same thing in your mum's mind. The biggest thing is that even if she insulted him, at least she isn't making such a big deal about it. The conversation could have gone MUCH worse than her insulting your husbands masculinity. Its a comfort to have your parents support in your decisions, but it shouldn't be a necessity, and you aught to understand that she's probably just never been faced by this sort of thing in such a personal way, its probably her way of dealing with it to insult it. Its sad, but once again, it could be much worse.

[bi_weird]

Whoops I totally got distracted by the new boy and almost forgot to reply to this.
Since your mom doesn't have a history of being homophobic or generally judgemental, then it seems to me that she's probably just feeling very lost. It may be that she never considered herself narrow-minded until this came up, and part of her unacceptance is anger at herself for not being better at this. It also may be simply that she's grieving for the daughter she's losing, as much as she may love the son she's gaining, and that's making her lash out.
Views on masculinity are so deeply entrenched that it astounds me. This will be the subject of a live journal entry at some point, which will probably be a thread here also. People who haven't confronted it enough sometimes miss just how much they cherish the male ideal, and that causes strange behaviors.

[John]

My my, what's with the pesimism here girls and guys? It may well have been one of those 'activating mouth befor brain' moments (I have them all the time...). Or just not really knowing what is and isn't apropriate to say.

[Angie G]

If it don't bother him that great it makes him no less a man
Angie